Jocko Podcast 561: The Art Of Command. Action, Initiative, and Judgement.

0:00This is Jono podcast number 561 with Echo Charles and me, Jono Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So, General Melvin Zeiss was born May of 1916 in Fall River, Massachusetts, graduated from the University of New Hampshire in 1937. He spent some time in the reserves um after doing the ROC program. Got his commission and then he was brought into

0:22active duty. Guess what? World War II. WWI. immediately volunteered for a parachute trooper unit. Um, assigned to the the the 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment. Also spent time at the 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment. As we know, very fond of the of the Parachute Infantry Regiments. Of course, he fought in Italy, southern France, Battle of the Bulge, and then the Korean War, he served as a military adviser to a Turkish brigade brigade. And then in Vietnam, he was a commanding commanding general of the 101st, also the commanding general of the 24th Corps in Vietnam. So, this guy had a bunch of very high ranking um military leadership positions, but started off on

1:13the front and a bunch of time in combat. He eventually was promoted to four-star general, appointed to the commander Allied Land Forces Southeastern Europe, which is there's no war going on there at the time. So, it's a cool position, but it's not, you know, a combat scenario. He's the recipient of four army distinguished service medals, two silver stars, three legions of merit, two distinguished flying crosses, bronze star, and purple heart. So he saw a lot, he learned a lot, and he passed some of these lessons on about a year after he retired. He retired in 1976. In 1977, he made a speech and I think it's something that we can

1:55all learn a little from. So let's get into the speech. The speech is called Leadership and the Art of Command once again by General Marvin Zeiss, United States Army. Here we go. March 1977. I have devoted twothirds of my life to the study of leadership and the art of command either by observation, experience, or reading. I have, as a consequence, developed some thoughts, some prejudices, and a variety of interesting quotes and an absolute conviction that leadership defies

2:26definition. Interesting. One can define what is wanted, but exactly how to do it and what characteristics are essential is the $64 question. Now, this is 1977. Maybe he did mean $64 million question, but he says $64 question. Some people are born leaders, others are developed leaders, and a few are nothing until pressures are imposed on them, which bring forth amazing demonstrations of

2:56leadership. So, some people are born into it, some people developed into it, some people just get put in the moment and they rise to the occasion. However, the most disappointing are those who seem to have all the accepted qualifications until the pressure comes and then they fold. This is a that's such a good tiein to the

3:24the military incompetence. [clears throat] You know, these people that have they look squared away and they kind of act squared away, especially when nothing bad is happening, but when the pressure comes, they just freak out. I've seen that quite a few times in my life. There is a cult of leadership study which is thriving today because its growth is fertilized by government research dollars. These are the behavioral scientists who would tabulate traits, mannerisms, characteristics, habits, morals, physical attributes and lifestyles. They convert these data from which from their witch's brew to bars, graphs, curves, models and matrixes in the most scientific manner and then pedal their conclusions to the

4:08government, the business world and to each other. [laughter] It is like so many of my golfing friends who are suffering from paralysis of analysis. The pitfalls or potential pitfalls associated with this scientific and ordered approach are captured well in this excerpt from Edmund Fuller's review of James McGregor Burns recent book leadership. So a guy named James McGregor Burns wrote a book called Leadership and here's a review of it and it's a pretty harsh review. [laughter] So he says this reviewer says leadership is one of the most observed and least understood phenomenon on earth. So says Pulitzer Prize and National Book award-winning historian biographer James McGregor Burns at the outset of a large

5:03ambitious work leadership. It is commonly remarked these days as an expression of frustration that the world is critically short of leadership. the views of its present leaders to this contrary notwithstanding. [laughter] Thus, thus this formidable work seemed timely and I approached it with great expectations. So, this guy wrote in this review. He's like, "Hey, man, we need leadership. We got some der of leadership in the world. He, this guy, this historian and biographer, award-winning puliter prizewinning wrote this book. So, he's ready for this. He's

5:37ready to hear what this guy has to say. In the upshot, I am sorely disappointed. Having mowled over many things that Professor Burns puts before us, interesting as some are, I do not feel I have emerged with sufficient illumination, but have come come out through the same door by which I entered. So, I didn't get anywhere. Professor Burns has demonstrated in several books that he can write

6:00excellent English. He has elected not to do so here. [laughter] I got to say though, it is kind of, you know, when you're sitting, you a critic and you just get to sit on the sidelines and just throw darts. Yeah. Fully. It's kind of a bummer. But that's what we're doing. [clears throat] A few of his opening and closing pages and narrative or biographical passages are clear and informative, but the bulk of the work is written in jargon derived from sociology and psychology. An [snorts] early example, not necessarily the worst, and here it is, quote, "Power over other persons, we have noted, is exercised when potential power wielders

6:40motivated to achieve certain goals of their own, marshall in their power base, resources, economic, military, institutional, or skill that enable them to influence the behavior of respondents by activating motives of respondents relevant to those resources and to those goals." page after end quote page after page of such pros is brain damaging. [laughter] Professor Burns has addressed his book to the people from whom his central ideas are drawn. It is no accident that the men quoted on the back of the jacket offer such accolades as a stunning book, a master work. They are all academics, sociologists, psychologists who talk to each other in their own jargon as seen

7:26in numerous quotations from within the book. So there's a pretty rough review. And then he continues with this speech. One of my sons will soon complete such a graduate course in preparation for an assignment to the leadership department at West Point. I am certain that he will learn a great deal. I am not as sure that having acquired an advanced degree in behavioral science, he will ipso facto

7:52become a better leader. Later, I will list some approaches which seem to help me the most. And even as I do so, I will be well aware of the previous expressed reservations about one's ability to define and describe this elusive quality of leadership. Let me start out with some interesting definitions by others and thus set up some straw men that we can later dignify

8:17or demolish. These guys right up your alley here with the straw man. [laughter] Good. The first is a definition of he who would command by Charles Bernap. I have carried this definition around with me for many years. I've read it often. It has helped me. It may or may not help you. for a definition is the one is one thing and how to live up to the definition is another. In essence, that is the catch 22. So, you might know the definition, but how do you live up to it? And here's the here's the uh the definition that he's talking about. Quote, decision of character is one of the most important

8:54of human qualities philosophically considered. Speculation knowledge is not the chief end of a man. It is action. We may by a fine education learn to think most correctly and talk most beautifully. But when it comes to action, if we are weak and undecided, we are of all things the most wretched. All mankind feel themselves weak, beset with infirmities, and surrounded with dangers. The acutest minds are the most

9:28conscious of difficulties and dangers. They want above all things a leader with that boldness, decision, and energy which with shame they do not find in themselves. [snorts] Give us the man, shout the multitude, who will step forward and take the responsibility. He is instantly the idol, the Lord, and the king among men. He then who would command among his fellows must first excel them more in energy of will than

10:06in their power of intellect. End quote. And again that's from a book called He who would command by Charles Bernap. And this you know Zace or sorry Zeiss says that you know that's kind of a definition that he carried around. Better take ownership of what's going on. You better take responsibility. You better step up. It's not about thinking. It's not about talking. It's about doing. You can't send out little well-crafted emails and think that now everyone's going to get, "Oh, cool. I'm

10:31inspired by this. Let's go." Like, no. You got to do stuff. You got to take action. Here's another one by SLA Marshall. And we, of course, we have reservations about SLA Marshall, but you know, we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater in his book, The Officer Leader. And he says, quote, "Any man, whatever be his rank, can command who has the courage to try and the brain to see clearly what other men miss." [snorts] Yeah, that's kind of a big deal. You, you know, there's like the whole, you

11:03know, the grind culture. Grind Yeah. Hustle, you know, grind hustle culture, which is like, hey, if you just work hard, like, of course you're going to you're going to be successful. And that's not necessarily true because you can work really hard and you cannot be successful. Um, you know, before, what was I, what

11:22were we talking about before? Oh, yeah. I was talking before we hit record. I was talking about a song by the Black Keys. The Black Keys and it says, "You know me, I have plans, but they just disappear to the back of my mind." And I was talking about that has just catches so many people like they have good plans. Oh,

11:37yeah. But then they're not really going to do anything with those plans. Yeah. And so that even having plans is is a little bit rewarding for people. Yeah. Fully. You know, I think that's why people buy lottery tickets. They can spend that day. That's why people look at Zillow. Yes. That's real. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? They're like, "Oh, well, you know, hey, you know,

12:00Yeah. come up with a plan, right? That's why people write down plans, you know, they write down, hey, I'm gonna write this down." they tell people. There's a there's that weird dichotomy about, you know, if if you want to do something, you should tell everyone that you're going to do it because then you're whole you're putting yourself out there and and and you're exposing yourself to ridicule if you don't actually do it. And that is a that is a technique, but there's also a reality that when you tell people, you get a little dopamine hit and that's kind of good enough,

12:30right? Right. Satisfaction. So, if you're talking about like I'm going to write a book. Yeah. and you talk like, "Hey guys, I'm writing a book." You know, I've I've known people that have quote unquote been writing books for really long times. Yes, sir. You know, yeah. Years and years and years and years. And actually, the writing of a book doesn't look it can take long. You're doing research or whatever you're doing, but it's not

12:51it shouldn't be decades. You know what I'm saying? I understand. So, not telling anyone is a methodology, too. So, do you tell everyone, "Hey, I'm writing a book." and everyone goes, "Oh, how's the book coming along?" You're like, "Well, you know, I'm still writing it." And you still get the little dopamine nip just from that. Or you shut your mouth and you just do

13:09the [ __ ] that you're supposed to do. Yeah. But that the reason I say this is because even if you are disciplined and you lock in and you write the book, there's absolutely zero guarantee that one single person ever reads that book. Yeah. Or you lock in and you, you know, learn your guitar and you practice and you're like, "All right, I did all the work. I put in all the work and I and now I'm

13:33gonna be a rock star. No, you're not. Well, most likely you're not. Or you like you'll hear like the in the Hollywood world, you just got to keep auditioning, keep auditioning. You [snorts] know, you got to keep going there. You can do that for your entire life. Literally, you can you can die and never like maybe get a couple

13:50commercials or whatever. But I'm saying just because you put in the hard work doesn't mean that it's going to be successful. I'll tell you what, if you don't put in the work, I can guarantee it's not going to be successful. So, we at least have to put our chips on the table, right? [snorts] The reason I say this is because he says

14:08the courage [clears throat] to try. Yep. But also the brain to see clearly what other people miss. So, if you're just trying hard, but you're not really sure 100% like what to actually do is not necessarily helpful. You may not find yourself in a leadership position because you're telling people to do dumb [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. That tends to be how the hustle culture, grind culture, whatever, seems to be like they kind of it seems like it anyway where they focus on the the the repetitive, you know, nature of it rather than the

14:37pro actual progress of it. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think that's why I mean it's obvious now that I'm saying it out loud. I think that's why it gets such a bad rap after a while. Oh, because people are like, "Yo, I grinded." Yeah. Grind every day. And they're like, "But bro, like you're still I'm still here, you know, and this I'm still in this rough situation,

14:55but like my grind isn't paying off." Your grind isn't guaranteed to pay off. I can guarantee that if you don't grind, you'll get no payoff. No one's going to come knocking on your door like, "Oh, I heard you want to publish a book or I heard you want to, you know, build this or I heard you want to build this app." We can

15:09really help you do that. Yeah. Although there are people that they'll email you and they'll be like, "Hey, um, well, at least I get like connections and I'll get a connection from someone that'll say, "Hey, I really am really impressed with your background." And it'll have some random AI generated like I saw that you led uh, you know, task unit cruiser in the battle of Ramadi and also now have a leadership consulting company and a clothing and it'll say this random AI stuff and it'll say, "Have you ever thought about sharing your story? We think it would be a big [laughter] hit in a book we could help

15:42you write. Yeah. I haven't ever responded to be like do a little a little extra research. Some research. But doing that kind of just doing the grind and doing the grind and doing the grind and you you think it's going to be guaranteed. No, that's not guaranteed. It's guaranteed that no one's going to come knock on your door and say, "Hey, here's the deal that you always wanted." That's not going to

16:03happen. So, we at least have to put chips on the table. And that's what I think SLA Marshall here is saying. All right, [snorts] continuing on with SLA Marshals quote. I am quite sure that I have known personally a greater number of emergent combat leaders than any man living. Dude, this dude's really he's he's got a big high opinion of himself, but we know that about SLA Marshall. So again, we're not throwing out the baby with bath water. None was a genius or possessed a of a better than average IQ. Of course,

16:32you're not going to be as smart as Mr. SLA Marshall, right? As a type, they are stolid rather than imag imaginative. And it is usually the lack of flare rather than a failure to conform to what is asked of them that denies them promotion or special recognition till their until their preeminent qualities are proved under fire. Their spirits are fanned by danger. Other men rally to them in emergency because they take positive

16:59action. There is the key word. These clutch hitters are able to fill the void caused by the failure of appointed leadership because they do not mistake the appearance of that position for the reality. So when it's time to step up, these dudes step up. And that's the end of the quote. Except for putting us down as a stolen and rather unimaginative and end of average IQ, he says the same thing as does Charles Bernup. He says the key word is

17:29positive action. As with Bernap's definition, it is easy to understand what is wanted. The real problem is in determining how to get how one gets to be that way. Another catch 22. Maybe the command sergeant major Walter Krueger has the answer. In a letter to Army magazine, he wrote the following. Some basics for young leaders. Isn't it nice that this stuff's

17:56just laid out? Some basics for young leaders. There must have been millions of words written on leadership, another thousand pages on motivation, and even more on counseling. Bro, he wrote this in 1977. [laughter] It's exponential. Now, all the while, behavioral scientists attempt to penetrate the human psyche to find even more ways of doing what? Getting the job

18:20done. Modern terminology boggles the mind. directive, non-directive, eclectic, organizational development, organizational effectiveness, synergistic communications, and so on. Have you seen those videos where people are talking in corporate speak on like a call? Yeah. Yeah. Those are those are good. Yeah. There's [snorts] sales ones, too, where they're like uh, you know, like sales jargon has like a and there's like a methodology or whatever that they're teasing. They'll be like uh two friends, you know? So, it's like when your sales friend is trying to convince you to go out with them, you know? So they'll be like, "Hey, do you want to get some beers or whatever?" And they'll be like, "No." He

18:56goes, "Well, let me ask you this. Is it the beers that doesn't want you to or is it the going out, you know?" So like it's like, "Okay, [laughter] [snorts] classic." Um, [clears throat] continuing on, add priority pressures as what to do first, short fuse missions, career a apprehension, a family with the measles, and an alcoholic squad leader leader. It gets to be a rather full day after day after day. I would propose because

19:23that's what you're really dealing with. And he's actually got a really cool part that he talks about in this book, which is like what you spend 80% of your time doing. I would propose a few. This is still uh the command sergeant major Walder Krueger. I would propose a few things. They don't subvert the new titles, nor

19:38are they a panacea for the nerdwell. They're not brown shoe army either, even although they have been around a long long time. They're just statements that do not need explanation. Listen to your soldiers. Instill pride. Never degrade. Set reasonable standards. Never lie to soldiers. Be hard, but be fair. Be as good as your word. Train hard. Your life really depends on it. Keep your soldiers

20:08informed. Be honest in all things. Respect all soldiers. That about covers leadership, including all the fancy words. I'm not against any method, but sometimes I maybe you do too get confused with all the reinventing and new tools we have. If they do nothing else, they get us thinking about leadership and that's just great. So listen to your soldiers instill pride never degrade. What I what I love about these old things is you you hear people you'll hear people talk about, you know, back in the day the leadership, you know, you could you could you could yell at people and scream at people and you could everyone

20:47you they people people, you know, they used to just snap too. It's like no, they hated you. They might have done it right, but people think that the old school leadership was all all different than it should be. No. And it wasn't. Good leadership looks like good leadership then and now. Dick Winter's classic example compared to uh uh Captain Sobel. That's like, you can just go back to that thing over and over and

21:08over again. Wait, it was, you know, it was 1940, 1943. The rank structure was in place. The captain says to do something, they'll do it. No, actually, they rebelled against that guy. Yeah. They got him fired. You know what I mean? That's what the reality is. Yeah. There that one that you you did it was a while ago. remember the one I made the video of uh you know you're you'll give give all like even that if you listen to that whole thing not just the excerpt on the video but um it talks about like how yeah your soldiers need like emotional support like straight up this is like

21:44World War II was like dang bro yep world war I hard dudes um continuing on the definition which I find most amusing and yet filled with puckish wisdom is that expressed by General Motion Diane And after the Sinai campaign, he says this, "A leader should be moral. He should not drink heavily, play around with women, be careless in his private affairs, ever but pleasure before ever put pleasure before business, or fail to know his people intimately as individuals. So you have a paragon who observes all of these rules

22:22and he is still no leader. In fact, if he is that perfect, leading is the thing at which he is most likely to fail. Interesting. You I [clears throat] I knew leaders like that. Um and you know, we've talked about Eagle Scouts before. Yeah. And how Eagle Scout guy asked me on the underground podcast, hey, I'm becoming should I strive to become an Eagle Scout? Will it help me in my military career? And I'm like, well, it might if being an Eagle Scout makes makes you learn some skills and you're humble and you've been in leadership position, you've learned how to listen to people,

22:54yeah, it'd be very helpful, very cool. If it makes you think you're better than people, it's going to be a disaster. So, I've known people that they were they they you could tell that they thought that they were better than everyone else. Yeah. And it's a problem. Yeah. It's a real problem. Yeah. even that just the the mere idea of um relatability like if you can't like relate to the person at all you know it's like bro you don't want to come to them with your xyz problem you know no um the moral here is don't be perfect another catch 22 [clears throat] finally I find the most simplistic quote

23:31designed to tranquilize those who are tired of trying to improve themselves a man may acquire knowledge but leadership like wisdom Om is a gift from God. Interesting. When I reflect on leaders whom I have known, I find tall and short, noisy and quiet, extrovert and introvert, intellectual and bore, which reminds me of an efficient of an efficiency report which I read when I was serving on a promotion board. The raider said, "This officer is equally at ease with intellectuals and those in authority." Another said, Smith is not a

24:11born leader yet. [snorts] It is interesting that I've known the same thing. I knew leaders that were tall, short, noisy, quiet, extrovert, introvert, and like I'm talking good leaders. I've known good leaders with all those different things and bad leaders with all those different things. You know, just because someone's a dynamic, articulate speaker doesn't mean

24:31they're a good leader. Yeah. Just because someone is quiet and kind of awkward doesn't mean they're a bad leader. Smith is not a born leader yet. Kind of cool. It's kind of a cool attitude to have. Yeah. That's a classic dig, too. This officer is equally at le ease with intellectuals and those in authority. [laughter]

24:54That is that is awesome. If I was still in the military, I'd use that. [clears throat] [snorts] [sighs and gasps] There seems to be some unknown chemistry which makes a man an exceptional leader. And again, this is what this is the irrational tenth that I talked about on a podcast prior, the the te Lawrence,

25:11the the it factor, all those things. This applies in other fields of endeavor as well. For example, I recently I was listening as Richard Burton, the famous actor, was being interviewed by Barbara Hawer on Who's Who. He offered the view that many actors are as able as he is, but by some strange trick of personality, he has been more successful. If one wants to learn to be successful, this is a strange will of the wisp of advice and leaves little to emulate except a certain degree of modesty or self- aacement. Neither of

25:45which are his longuits. John Ruskin said, "I fear uniformity. You cannot manufacture great men any more than you can manufacture gold." So even what's Richard Burton is like, "Hey, there's a lot of actors that are as good as me. I just got something. I got a little something. Now, part of that could be luck, right? Part of it is like, oh, you you you know, this person got that role in this particular time. But what's interesting, you hear like these big actors, if they didn't get that one big role, they got some other big role. You know

26:19what I mean? Like they had something. Yeah. Yeah. That and that's a that's the acting thing is a is a good example. And even music is like that too where [clears throat] the results are so variable, you know? So like a good actor like we even we know this where you can grab any successful like any of the top successful actors you could easily find big groups of people who just don't like them right they hate on them they're like oh I don't like them they and they find something wrong with what maybe they're just not their their flavor and some people they're just hating to hate

26:50right but the so acting music this kind of stuff it's like a lot of the the fundamental format is one person's performance verse or on top of or should I say mixed with the kind of for lack of a better term the environment. So like if you say okay you got a good actor he's they have a skill of acting now it's like okay how do they look how do they um you know how do they present themselves just normally as a human being on top of the or underneath the character and then what requirement is there like what movie do they have to play or what character do they have to

27:26play right so it's like okay you know like okay James Bond for example right James Bond has a many uh characters or s actors that play James Bond So you know how and they get varying levels of kind of like appreciation we'll say right so let's say Shan Connory everyone loves the Shan Connory right but uh you know one of the other guys Roger actually Roger Moore everyone like Roger Moore too but you know some of the newer guys they'll be like that guy is not my James Bond you know I like this guy you know kind of a thing right so you can get a good actor

27:55with he has good looks or whatever but he plays like the wrong role and then they kind of get like shunned a little bit like there's a word for it I forget what it is it's like actor jail or purgatory. I don't know, some something like this. But you're right about that. It's bad luck because it's like how does this actor with their skills interact with the character and then interact with the actual movie itself? You see what I'm

28:16saying? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, there's a level of luck in there, right? But what I'm saying also in addition to luck is like these people that end up quote unquote making it. Yeah. They kept going and and then they quote unquote got lucky, right? meaning they had the thing and they just needed to have an opportunity. And listen, I've been um there's like I got in my algorithm, I got this freaking world champion, like

28:44beyond world champion Scrabble player. Hell yeah. I watched like a 20-minute documentary about this dude. He's beyond he's beyond human capability in Scrabble. Yeah. like he they have computer whatever AI that that will play Scrabble and they'll run the the protocol or run a game that he he conducted and they'll run AI like the smartest

29:14computer and it won't be as good as him. And the the the question is like if the Scrabble didn't exist, right? What would this dude be doing, right? Like I mean he'd probably be good at something, but that's like a weird little skill to have. Yeah. And luckily there's an opportunity for him to to shine in the world. And that's See how you said shine? Like let's let's say uh shine is kind of a slang term obviously, but I know what you mean. We know what you mean by shine. Like we'll say uh be successful

29:46in the world that you said. So what does that look like? Right. So that guy, the scrabble guy. Yeah. and let's say a good actor, a good performer, whatever, like they'll still be good. They'll be really good at whatever it is that they're good at or whatever, but will they be quoteunquote successful? Will they shine in the world? That's where kind of that luck, which is kind of the combination between

30:06their circumstances and their skill. Yeah. So, there's certainly going to be luck involved. Yeah. But there's more there's not it's more than luck. You got to have what this dude's saying, what Richard Burton's saying. Like, hey, you can get lucky. I mean there's there's countless people other end of the spectrum. They get lucky, they score a role,

30:25right? They had the right look, it was right timing or whatever and then they make one movie and it's like, "Oh yeah, that guy wasn't good, right?" So they didn't have it, right? They got lucky, they didn't have it. So it's more important to have this quality. Yeah. So it's like essentially, you know, the expression make your own luck, right? So basically what that is, I mean, the way I see it anyway, it's Yeah. You get lucky if you're luck is basically if you break it down luck is basically the uh something coming through f fruition that's positive that's very unlikely that's like luck right but if you create as many

30:58opportunities as you can by you know whether it be preparation tenacity um observing opportunities good you know and learning like that kind of stuff yeah you kind of create your own luck so yes when you say uh someone who just has it like oh I have it then yeah they might fail and they'll immediately be looking at how do I interact with my environment you know so I and create

31:16create more luck. Create more luck. Increase the probability of success. Yep. I'm not trying to discourage anybody, by the way. Sure. Like, we got to put our chips on the table. Like, you you have to what? It must suck to get to be on your deathbed and you still have all your chips in your pocket. You know what I mean? And you didn't really put in the work to to

31:36to to have the opportunity to get lucky. You know what I'm saying? So, get out there and get after it. Yeah. Uh, continuing on, despite all the conflicting evidence which I have inflicted on you, I do have some advice to offer on certain points and certain points to make. If you heed them, you may, and I'm cautious to use the qualifying phrase may, advance more rapidly and to a higher grade than your fellow officers. And you may improve your leadership qualities and your ability to command because leadership potential can be developed. This is

32:08something I've been saying for years. You can become a better leader. You might not have all those little natural gifts. You might have some of them, but you can definitely get better. [snorts] These pearls of wisdom come under the heading of pipe smoking, pop-bellied, pontificating profundities. And even if you agree with them, you may not be able to or care to place them in

32:29effect or practice them. I like that this dude's like retired after however many 40 years or something in the army, and he still was just like whatever. Like, yeah, I'm the old pop pipe smoking, potbellied, pontificating dude. Like, I see I know that I'm talking to you young cadetses out there. Okay, here we go through the list. [gasps] Leadership is the ability to get other people to do what you want them to do. I add into that for the good of the team or the mission, right? Otherwise, it's just manipulation. If I'm just trying to get Ekko to do something that's going to benefit me, that's not really that's not

33:01leadership. That's just manipulation. So I have to add in there what you want them to do for the good of the team, for the good of the mission. How one develops this capability is closer to an art than it is to science. The ability to get others to respond is a primary prerequisite. However, and the lack of this ability explains why some very able, bright, conscientious young men flourish in their youth and then begin a

33:28gradual fade out in their middle years. These are the men who will do everything well as long as the results are dependent on their own efforts. While they are young and their tasks are minor, they are judged solely on their own performance. But as they move up in the hierarchy, they are increasingly required to delegate responsibility and to create in their subordinates a strong desire to do that which has been directed by them. These men are subject to terrible disappointment and often bitterness because they watch as they are passed by contemporaries who in earlier years did not perform as well as they did. So you can be this is this is

34:06the classic thing where I'm like, "Oh, you can be a great salesman or you can be a great plumber, but then when you get promoted, you don't do well." It's because you didn't have that skill and you didn't learn that skill. I recommend you learn the skill. It also explains why some slow starters who suffer from impatience with detail and unwillingness to seek perfection in small matters but who have the ability to influence others to perform finally come into their own

34:28and advance rapidly. This explains why the class leaders at the servicemies colleges and even advanced service schools are often not leaders in the field. One should therefore not be surprised to discover that many of our great leader leaders stood low in their class. The lesson here is obvious. The least you can learn to do is delegate. The ability to inspire others to perform is more

34:56difficult. So least you can do is learn to delegate. But learning how to inspire others a little bit more tricky. Next one. A young officer can and should learn by observation and imitation of his admired superiors and by rejection of the modus operandi of those he does not respond to. Often more is to be learned from the latter. I know I learned a lot from these [ __ ] birds out there that were in leadership positions over me. I learned what I wasn't going to do. However, human nature is such that we tend to treat others as we have been treated even when we did not like

35:32the treatment. And then we justify the action with the rationale of that is how it was for me. Bro, that's so this is like you know the cycle of child abuse, right? This is the cycle of I had a crappy leader and who yelled and scream and that's what we're doing. So I'm going to yell and scream. Yeah, there's that's probably and then I don't know I can't read everybody's mind but I felt for myself that that's like that idea is very part like there's like they're hidden in little parts of my mind as far as like you know my dad used for example my dad used to um if he

36:04wanted us to I don't know hurry up he'd grab us by the elbow here and squeeze it like to pull us to where we were supposed to go like whatever like get out of the car get in the whatever and he'd squeeze his elbow and it freaking hurt but it was effective you know, cuz

36:19you're like, "Ah, but it freaking hurt." And I hate like I hated it. And I remember thinking how effective that was, you know, like I'm not going to necessarily do XYZ or say XYZ to my kids when I have kids. But that I'm keeping that in the tool belt, you know, seemed like a good move. Yeah. You know, a little bit. And then when I had kids, I was like, "Bro, that's freaking kind of mean only because I had that moment of clarity, you know, kind of a thing." But I I was

36:45prepared. I was ready. Have you ever used it? Never. Uh-uh. It's I I got to There was a very specific point I told you about it off offline that I was like physically harming my kids. I I as of right now I I believe that that is Yeah. I'm not doing it. Physically harm, you know, especially for like compliance stuff like I did I don't know you I don't know. I can't think of any circumstance

37:08that it's like the move, you know. Yep. Yep. Um I agree with you. And by the way, we got we got asked a question like this on the underground as well. It was like about spanking kids and I looked up, you know, did the the quote unquote research. Um, and everything I read was like, "No,

37:24it's not it's not helpful." Yeah, it's not helpful. Uh, and I didn't spank my kids either. And you know, I never I always felt like if I had to do that, bro, I really like dropped the ball a long time ago if I got to inflict pain on my kids. Yeah. like and my kids will tell you what I mean I remember my kids I actually on that situation I was going through the questions for this underground podcast that we made and it was like oh you did you spank your kids and I was like no and then I I kind of had to confirm couldn't really remember you know and I

38:02went down asked my kids I was like oh did I um did I spank my wife was there did I spank you guys they're like no no and then they're like we wish you would have because the psychological warfare was worth was worse worse. Yeah, it was worse. So, you know, meaning I would like shun them and like ostracize them, you know, and make them feel, you know, and again, it made them feel really bad, you know, [clears throat] and so worse than they just thought of spaking kind of a little bit of a luxury, dude. It was like, give

38:29me a couple cracks and call it good. Let's let's move on, you know, cuz I would hold that grudge, you know, a little bit crazy. And again, I'm not uh what's I'm not I'm not condoning this type of behavior. It would have been better to be a little bit more, you know, a little bit more let's address it, let's talk about it, let's see what you were thinking, that kind of thing. But, you know, had to

38:49grow up a little bit my damn self. Yeah. Yeah. But it but that's correct though what he's saying where it's like a lot of people they don't cuz I didn't until I did. But I wasn't thinking about like, wait, is this for real correct? Like, is this the best way to do this as far as I can like figure out or learn about or whatever, you know, kind of a thing. So there's a lot of I I kind of even wonder now like what am I am I doing stuff that I just figured just like how you say like where it's just bro that's how it was done so I'm just

39:16going to keep it going. You see what I'm saying? But yeah, you got to kind of be conscious of that kind of stuff. Check. Um [clears throat] next continuing on that explains some of the very harsh treatment medated out in recruit training and boot camp. It also has general application. For example, most people who brutalize their childrens were themselves beaten were themselves beaten by their parents. In my career, I was fortunate to serve under only two men whom I considered sadistic or terribly egotistical. I learned a great deal from them. Mostly, I had the good fortune to serve under close serve under and closely observe

39:49the conduct of such men as Matthew B. Rididgeway, who actually I think we're going to get into on the next podcast. Maxwell [snorts] D. Taylor, James M. Gavin, Katon W. Abrams, and many others. I watch these men very closely. My wife is continually astonished at how much I remember about my former commanders and colleagues. I watch them and I try and learn. Which brings me to my next point. Next point

40:11is you must adapt to your commander. Wow, this is smart. He does not adapt to you. This is an issue on which more officers flounder than any other. I know. I think he probably meant to say flounder. It is also the most difficult advice to live up to when faced with a commander who violates your own sense of justice or code of ethics. I will be happy to discuss this further in the next question and answer period. Well, this is the speech. We won't get we won't get

40:38to hear his question. Question answer. Although in this document there's like little notes that he's made which is interesting. My next advice is this is another just put this one in the books man. Don't fight higher headquarters. I know that many of you consider the next higher headquarters as your natural enemy. It requires strong willpower and a level head to keep your cool. But if you will find it counter but you will find it counterproductive to engage in a running battle with your boss and his

41:09staff. Isn't it weird that that's just so obvious when you sit here and read it? But it's such a reality that he says that most people consider their boss in the upper echelon their natural enemy. Yeah. Save your complaints for the very important issues. There's nothing more tiresome as a quibbling, griping, uncooperative subordinate unit commander. Hold your tongue and sweat your man. I don't really know what that means. Hold your tongue and sweat your man. I don't know. When you rarely complain, people listen. Mhm. That I do

41:42know. Next, don't ask for guidance or you will get more than you want. If you are operating within general policy, move out and display initiative. If your boss doesn't like it, he will inform you. His opinion of you drops off with each succeeding CYA request for approval. It's legit. Don't ask for guidance or you'll get it.

42:08[laughter] That's smart. And of course, it's not never ask for guidance. If obviously there's something unclear, you got to look at the boss. We get that. But if that's your habit and every time you're just going, "Hey boss, is it okay if I do this? Hey boss, is it okay if I do this? Hey boss, if I So you don't want to take responsibility. You want me to you want me to take

42:24responsibility?" Okay, cool. Got it. Opinion is dropping. Next. The most most successful leaders do more than is expected of them. You must pay the price. It is a conscious choice. And I must admit that I have often envied many of my contemporaries contemporaries who became much better golfers, bridge players, grass cutters, and commissary

42:45shoppers than I. Even so, you need not become a drudge or a workaholic. I played golf, poker, fished, hunted, drank, danced, and generally had a good time. So, yeah, you got to put in that extra work. You don't need to be a a monk. Next, you must be able to establish priorities and meet deadlines. Prioritize and execute. This again is where the perfectionist often becomes a cropper. I replaced a very able man as G3 of the 82nd Airborne Division because he tended to work on the top paper in his inmasket rather than the most

43:22important or time-sensitive thing. Prioritize and execute all day. whichever paper he worked on, you could be sure, was a masterpiece of attention to detail and thoroughess. However, he was often late with his effort. And while he was laboring with periods and commas, the world was passing him by. You must also be able to whip out an effort in the time allotted, even though you know he could do a better job given more time. Your boss will soon learn which of his subordinates can get with a problem in a hurry and come up with something when he needs it. Boom. I mean this is just classic you know this is

43:56the whole principle of prioritize and execute as [snorts] you move up your you must broaden your perspective I recall that sir William Slim chief of the British Imperial general staff was the Kermit Roosevelt lecturer when I was at the command and general staff college in 1947. He talked about the art of high command. He had commanded the 14th army in Burma and he reduced his hour lecture to three points dealing with the art of high command. It was no papers, no details and no regrets. Bro, that is freaking decentralized command. No

44:35papers, no details, and no regrets. It's freaking legit. [sighs] Uh, next, read about our great leaders. I equate this approach to the case history mentioned of teaching at the Harvard Business School. When you read the lives of MacArthur, Marshall, Arnold, Nimttz, King, Bradley, Rididgeway, and many others, you will learn a great deal. Whether you can or will apply it is another matter, but first must come learning and

45:03understanding. Next, before, not against. I'm going to say that again. Before, not against. Most great leaders are positive. They establish goals and achieve them or they have an idea and test it or they have a dream and they try and fulfill it. People who are for things people who are for things are vibrant. Oh, got it. People who are for things are vibrant, filled with electricity, radiating energy and enthusiasm. People who are against things tend to be dull, negative, uninspiring, and boring. They [snorts] cast a paw on every gathering and they

45:44are a wet blanket. We try to avoid them. They are not doers. Be a forer not aner. Happiness in the final analysis is something to be enthusiastic about. Charles M. Schwab said, "A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiasm." Almost anything. You can do everything. Almost anything. I think that's interesting that he outlined in that

46:12right there. What what part? Be a forwarder and against her. Cuz I be a for not an against her. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's my environment, but I feel like that's an important element of existing with people. Yeah. Because we all have experienced that, you know, we all know the person who like Right. You come with them over

46:30there. Yeah. You know, like, oh, hey, I just I don't know did something good. And they're like, well, I hope. And then it's like something bad or whatever. It's people don't talk about that enough I think right now given the stuff that I hear out there you know because it's it's a huge deal. Yeah. [laughter]

46:45Yeah. For sure. It much like um people that are insane do not know that they're insane. Yeah. I feel like people that are negative oftenimes don't know that they're negative. It's just part of their inherent. But [snorts] if you just can detach enough to pay attention to what you're saying and you can go, "Oh, you know what? How does that actually sound? what what I

47:06just said right there. Yeah. I don't know if that's really good. I don't know if I'm very positive about this. Yeah. And and by the way, what's interesting about it, it is a personality type. You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, you give me something and you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, I'm I'm not sure about that. And then other times I'm like, oh yeah, that's a go. It's like you end up with a personality type. Oh, we could probably

47:27make that happen. Yeah. Yeah. You you ever get like admit people in administrative positions and when people complain about them, they go they're looking for a way to say no as opposed to a way to say yes. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, "Hey, what are we going to Hey, you think we could do this?" "Oh, I think I think we can." As like, "No, that'll never work." Just be a person that says try and say yes instead of try

47:46and say no. And that's the interesting thing. Some people try and say yes and some people try and say no. Their goal is to say no. Such a freaking bummer. I don't know what is that an ego driven thing where it's like I don't like I don't want Ekko to have the good idea. So when you're like, "Hey, I think we should make this

48:01thing." I'm like, "I don't know." Yeah. I I mean, yeah, maybe. I mean, I'm sure it's kind of a whole lot of everything, you know, in there. But I'm thinking of vague experiences that I've had and it doesn't feel like ego. It just feels like Yeah. It feels like they're just a downer. That's how they are. They That's

48:19how they live, you know? Weird. Maybe it's like I don't know. Maybe it could be a partially of this like you know this idea of um let's say you're in a bad mood right just as a individual random arbitrary individual you're in a bad mood and then someone comes to you with like a good mood and good news and stuff and you're kind of like that mismatch kind of bothers you you know like bro I'm over here like in a bad mood and you're over here like in a good mood like how dare you you know ruin my bad mood kind of a thing you know

48:47mess up my bad mood yeah you know so it feels like kind of that cheer Yeah exactly So it kind of feels like that but on a personality level. Yeah, I was going to say I was going to say the big difference is like you echo Charles might be in a bad mood but it's a temporary thing whereas opposed to a person that's like

49:03a general broadly speaking naysayer. Right. Right. And an against her is this is a this is a personality trait. So don't be that way. Um next you must go where the action is. For some it is the sound of the guns. For others it is in support of those who go to the sound of the guns. When I was privileged to deliver the Kermit Roosevelt lecture series in England, the title of it was the title of my talk was your mission is to fight and don't forget it. I repeat it to you without elaboration. One thing I know for sure is the fact that most of my success can

49:38be attributed to the fact that I went to the sound of the guns and I was lucky enough to survive. Next, obviously I could go on in the same vein, but I will stop providing you with pearls of wisdom and I will elaborate at some length on the one piece of advice which I believe will contribute more to making you a better leader and commander will provide you with greater happiness and self-esteem and at the same time advance your career more than any other advice I can provide you. And it doesn't call for a special personality and it

50:10doesn't call for a certain chemistry. Any one of you can do it. And that advice is you must care. The chief of staff of the Army in a recent speech said it another way. You must give a damn. Let's talk a little bit more about caring. You'll find that at this school and any other service school that you might attend, beginning at your basic course and winding up at the war college level, that you spend about 80% of your time on tactics, strategy, weapons, planning, writing. I'm being very generous here. And you spend about 20% of your time on people matters. So what he's saying you go to these schools

50:49whether it's basic training whether it's company rec career course whether it's a senior NCO course all the way up to the war college 80% of the time is tactics strategies weapons planning writing like that's what you're doing 20% of the time people matters and he continues it's an interesting phenomenon and paradox that we go to school after school after school and spend about 80% of our time on tactics weapons logistics and planning and about 20% on people matters and then we go to our units and what do we do we spend about 80% % of our time on people matters and 20% of our time on tactics,

51:21weapons, logistics, etc. Just think about it. Your young officers mostly here, majors and lieutenant colonels, but you have all commanded companies. Some hope to command battalions. Many have been S3s and execs, and some have commanded smaller ships, and some have commanded air squadrons. Where does your time go? Just reflect on it. You're dealing with grievances. You're inspecting barracks. You're inspecting latrines. You're checking mess halls, supply rooms, day rooms. You're worrying about laundry. You're worrying about pay. You're getting new officers and new non-commissioned officers and new soldiers. You're saying goodbye to officers and new non-commissioned officers. You're officiating the promotions of your officers and your non-commissioned officers. You're

51:58officiating the at demonstrations of certain non-commissioned officers. You're dealing with the past policy and complaints. You're dealing with awards. You're engaging in a great deal of correspondence. You're visiting the guard house. You're going to the messaul on Christmas and Thanksgiving. You're going to the chapel on Sunday. Even if you're not religious, you're going there because you think you should, as a good leader, because you do it as an example to your men. Those are the things you're really dealing with in command. And you must care about your soldiers and your

52:22sailors and your airmen. And this is just so true. It's just so true. Now, think to yourself, all of you are saying to yourself right now, "Well, I care. What's this guy talking about?" Well, there are degrees to caring. There are degrees of personal sacrifice to reflect the amount of caring that you do. And there's an attitude that you have to develop in yourself. How do you know if you care? You're sitting out there wondering, "Do I care? Do I really

52:48care? How do you know if you care?" Well, for one thing, if you care, you listen to your junior officers and soldiers. When I say listen, I don't mean that stilted baloney that so many officers engage in and stand up to an enlisted man and say, "How old are you, son? Where are you from? How long have

53:04you been here? Thank you very much. Next, man." That's baloney. That's form. That's posed. I can remember when I asked my son when he was a cadet at West Point how he liked his regimental commander and he paused a while with that cleancut incisiveness with which most midshipman and cadets evaluate people. He said to me, "He plays the

53:23role." Wow, that was damning. He plays the role. I noticed this officer later in life and he postured a great deal and he always stood with his knees bent back and he always turned one toe out and he always wore a special little things around his collar and he always turned sideways. I knew what he meant when he

53:43said he plays the role. Yeah, I think we all do. I think we all do. Well, I'm not talking about that kind of stuff. I'm talking about listening because a young soldier won't come out and tell you everything that is wrong. He'll be a little hesitant. If you ask him if he's getting along all right, if he just shrugs, he's getting along lousy. If he's not enthusiastic in his response, there's something wrong. And you better dig a little deeper. If you care, you care if you listen to him. I wrote in leadership strategy and tactics, the most underrated

54:16skill of leadership is listening. You care if you listen to him. really listen. You care if you really wonder what's what he's doing on his offduty activities. When you're about to tee off on a Saturday afternoon, when you're at the club at happy hour, when you're going home or coming uh when you're going or coming home from church on Sunday, if you're wondering if there's this little creeping nagging in the back of your head about I wonder what the soldiers are doing. I wonder, do you do that? What are your airmen doing? What

54:45are the sailors doing? Where do they go? You care if you go in the mess hall, and I don't mean go in with white gloves and rub dishes and pots and pans and find dust. You care if you go into the mess halls and you notice that the scrambled eggs are in a big puddle of water and that 20 lbs of toast could have been done in advance that have been done in advance is lying there cold and hard and the bacon is laying there dripping in grease and the cooks all have their work done way ahead of time. The cold pots of coffee are sitting on the tables getting

55:13even colder. If that really bothers you, if that really gripes you. If you want to tear up those cooks, you care. It's the little things. When I was in Vietnam, a quartermaster captain was bragging to me about the ice cream that they made at Camp Evans and were taking out to the soldiers on the fire bases. I said, "That's great." He said, "Sir, would you like to see what we're making?" I said, "I'd like to see it very much." And he went there and they had these machines and they were pouring ice cream into these gallon containers. He was very proud. He says, "We get it out there every day." I said,

55:47"That's great. What do you carry it out there in?" He said, "Oh, these containers." I said, "Yeah, but how do the soldiers eat it? You know, they're all out there in little dugouts. They're not all lined up in a messaul. They don't have mess kits out there and things like that." He said, "I don't know, sir." I said, "I know how they eat it. They pass that thing around. They stick their fingers in it, and each one

56:08grabs some." I said, ' Get some Dixie cups and send them.' He said, 'Dixie cups? I said, 'Yeah, Dixie cups.' I use these little elementary things because I'm trying to illustrate a point. When you're getting ready for the annual IG inspection and you know that these guys are giing around the barracks and you know they're working like hell and it's Sunday night, if you get your get out of your warm house and go down to the barracks and wander in to see them work and just sit there on a foot locker, you don't have to tell them that they're doing a great job. Just sit on

56:41the foot locker and talk to one or two soldiers and leave. They'll know that you know that they're working like hell to make you look good. If, as I mentioned earlier, on Sundays and holidays, you're concerned, if you take your kids and your wife and you go to the mess hall, if even before that you wander around and see if they're

56:58making that place look decent, you care. If you have a fine, uncommonly goodlooking, non-commissioned officer with muscles rippling down his cheeks and a strong neck and clean as a whistle, trim as could be, shoulders back, the the look of tigers in his eyes, and then he says to you, "Captain, don't worry about it. I guarantee I'm going to take care of him. If you don't check to see whether he is making these guys do push-ups until they're dizzy and sweating and about to pass out. If you don't wonder, is this guy getting a little sadistic from pushing these guys around? If you don't make it your business to make it

57:36known throughout your outfit that you won't put up with that crap. He actually has edited out. He had crap and he lined through. He put stuff, but I'm giving him crap back. Hell yeah. [snorts] Then you don't care. But if that worries you when you wonder and you go back and you check and you

57:52ask questions and make sure you care. If [snorts] you look out your window before a parade and you see that the troops are there lined up 15 or 20 or 30 minutes before windy, rainy, hot, whatever it may be, if it doesn't really boil you to see that, you don't care. But if it does, you care. Because the only reason, the only reason the soldiers stand around and wait is because some dumb jerk officer didn't plan it right or he planned it in such a way that the troops have to pay for him

58:25not missing a deadline. You care if just before a jump or just before an assault on a hot landing or just before a takeoff from an aircraft carrier, just before a closeair support raid or a close support raid, you care if you wander down to where these guys are and you notice that their Adam's apples are bobbing a little. You notice that they are a little pale. You notice that they are yawning a lot. People yawn when they're scared. And it really helps scared soldiers and scared lieutenants and scared captains and majors and

58:54commanders and lieutenant commanders. And it helps anybody when you're scared and getting ready to do something more difficult for somebody to come around who is a senior to you whom you respect and admire to let you know that he cares. You've got to seek out these situations wherever it is tough for your men. Be there and understand and be sympathetic and give a pat. And it has got to be it has got to bother you in your belly when you walk down the line and see all these lads waiting and they're sitting under the wing of a plane or they're sitting near a chopper and they're loaded and the sweat is

59:30coming down their face and they're really scared and you can smell it in their breath. I can tell you you can smell fear in a man's breath but you'll never know it unless you get close enough to smell it. And if that bothers you and if you try to help him in that way you care. I can't make you do this, but you really you really need to like soldiers. You need to be amused by their humor. You

59:58need to be tolerant of their bodiness. You need to understand that they're as lousy as you let them be and as good as you make them be. You just have to really like them and feel good about being with them. When I was commanding the 101st Airborne Division, I used to write a column every

1:00:16week. It was in a paper called the screaming eagle. The name of the col column was lucky eagle says. I tried to get some message to my soldiers. I tried to get some direct communication to them. My code name was lucky eagle. The code name for the fellow before me was bold eagle. I figured if I was bold, my soldiers would know it. I didn't have to put it in my code name. So I named myself lucky eagle on account of soldiers are superstitious and soldiers are always scared about something. If they wanted to be associated with anything they wanted to

1:00:50be associated with luck. This is what I wrote in that column and I saved it. [snorts] I said you cannot expect a soldier to be proud if you humiliate him. You cannot expect him to be brave if you abuse and cower him. You cannot expect him to be strong if you break him. Man, those are important. I sorry, I just couldn't stop reading for what was that like a seven minute period or something like that because it's all just good. It's just such powerful stuff and it's so he's just given example after example after example of what it means to care for your troops. And not only that, that

1:01:32whole idea of like you have to like them. There's a a a distinct separation between officers and enlisted guys in the military. It's a thing, right? The enlisted guys call the officers sir. The officers get, you know, better housing. The officers get paid more money. The officers are, you know, they get more responsibility as

1:01:55well. But you would see that sometimes kind of like a class system, right? Where look there's there's class systems in in every part of the world. And in America, we you know, you have certain classes. is we have socioeconomic classes, right? And there are definitely people that look at people that are a lower class as a worse human being, right? This person

1:02:21is worse than me. They're dumber than me. They're not as smart as me. They're not as clever as me. They're not as don't have as much money as me. They're they they rack those things up. And you see those those people that are like that. They look down on other people. They treat the waiter the waiter like [ __ ] They treat the whatever the gas station attendant like [ __ ] They think they're better, right? [snorts] And you would

1:02:44sometimes see people in the military. You know, we would joke about it as enlisted guys when I was an E dog. You know, we would we would say, "Oh, you know, you don't want to come down here and eat with the enlisted swine, right? The enlisted swine." And and the the the enlisted man is not to be trusted. We had all these like little

1:03:02sayings that kind of played into this. And of course we were joking. But if you don't think there was some people that that had those feelings, you know, you're wrong. [snorts] So that there is a separation there. But these ideas that that I just laid out, if you cannot expect a soldier to be proud be a proud soldier if you humiliate them. Like

1:03:23think about that with your kids. You know, you cannot expect them to be brave if you abuse and cower them. Again, think about that with your kids and think about that with your people you work with, people that work for you. You cannot expect him to be strong if you break him. Now, listen, and we'll get into this a little bit at some point, but does that mean you don't push them? No. Absolutely not. Does it mean

1:03:49you just let them do whatever they want? No, absolutely not. Does it mean you never have to discipline them in some way? No, absolutely not. But there's a huge difference between disciplining someone and breaking them. There's a huge difference between disciplining someone and making them cower. There's a huge difference between disciplining someone and humiliating

1:04:10them. So you got to be careful. You really do have to be careful. Continuing on, you cannot ask for respect and obedience and willingness to assault hot landing zones. hump back breaking ridges, destroy dug in imp placements if your soldier has not been treated with the respect and dignity which fosters unit as spree and personal

1:04:34pride. Again, what are you doing with your family? What are you doing with your team? Are you are you building those things up? Are you treating them with respect? Are you listening to what they have to say? the line between firmness and harshness, between strong leadership and bullying, between discipline and chicken [ __ ] Now, he didn't have [ __ ] on here, [snorts] but I added it in there because that's that's a military thing. And it's not as much of a military thing for my generation as it was in like World War

1:05:08II. They would call it chicken [ __ ] So, anything, you know, hey, polish the brass on that freaking doorork knob. Polish it again. Polish it again. Polish it again. Oh, I see a fingerprint on there. polished again. That's chicken [ __ ] Like, oh, polish your boots. Go, you know, go hike in the go on a go on a patrol. Come back. Oh, I see your boots

1:05:28aren't polished. Polish them again. Polish them again. Polish them again. That's chicken [ __ ] stuff. That's what they call in the military, chicken [ __ ] So, he says there's a line between discipline and chicken [ __ ] And yes, there absolutely is. Chicken [ __ ] is dumb stuff. There's no reason for it. And he says it's a fine line between firmness and harshness, between strong leadership and bullying, between discipline and chicken and [ __ ] It's difficult to define, but those of us who are professionals and who have also accepted a career as leaders of men must

1:05:55find that line. [snorts] That's what we have to do. And boy, it is a fine line. And by the way, that line isn't just like permanent. You know, there's going to be some things with your team you're going to have to impose this much discipline and some things you better not impose that much discipline. You got to figure out this is the dichotomy of leadership, right? The dichotomy of leadership is that line it

1:06:18does it's not it's not permanent. Same thing with your kids. Like your there's some kids there's some kids there's some things that your son is going to do that you will not have to impose any kind of punishment whatsoever. will already been punishing himself, you know, and there's some things where they're not going to real like you're going to have to impose some kind of punishment cuz they'll be like they they won't understand it won't land,

1:06:42man. And you're going to have to figure that out on on kind of a case-byase basis. You know, look, we want to be consist being consistent is so important as a leader. That includes parent. Being consistent is so important, but you got to realize that there's that consistency also has a little has there's got to be

1:06:59some maneuverability in there. Flexibility. You [snorts] got to have like kind of some things that just are not going to happen. Like like there's there's a line that's not going to be crossed. Yeah. Right. And then they got to know what that is, but then they got to okay, how can I maneuver around in here? Um, and it says this. So you got to find that line. It is because judgment and concern for people and human relations are involved in leadership that only men

1:07:28can lead men and not computers. I [snorts] enjoin you to be ever alert to the pitfalls of too much authority. Beware that you do not fall in the category of the little man with a little job with a big head. In essence, be considerate. Treat your subordinates right and they will literally die for

1:07:55you. And that's what he wrote in that um that article and we'll close it out with this section here. I wanted all my officers and non-commissioned officers to know I felt that way. Now I want to close by stating that if you care, I guarantee you will have a successful career. I won't guarantee that you'll be a general or an admiral, but I guarantee that you will

1:08:21improve your chances tenfold. So, it is in your self-interest. It is in your self and I say this all the time, you know, all these these recommendations that I give about leadership a lot, you know, take the high road, you know, and and people, you know, use the indirect approach. There's all these things where it seems like it's going to take longer and it seems like it's going to be hard and but I guarantee you in the end you win in the end. Like your

1:08:47when your team wins, you win. When you accomplish the mission, you win. But if you claim, hey, I I hey, don't I want some don't I get some credit over here for this. Can you I was the one that was leading this thing. You raise your hand and do that, you're hurting. You're hurting the way you appear. If you put the team first, you're going to win in the end. If you put the mission first, you're going to win in the end. So, it is in your self-interest to care about your people. Even if you do not become a flag officer, you will still be happy in the devotion, love,

1:09:20and affection of your men, and you will like yourself better. And he closes it with this. I sincerely believe that to be a successful leader in the idealistic sense, you must care. And there you go, General Melvin Zeiss. Uh, take care of your people. And again, take care of your people doesn't mean you don't push them. It doesn't mean you don't make them push themselves. It doesn't mean that you give them a bunch of time off. It doesn't mean that you don't train them hard. No, it doesn't mean any of that. Taking care of your people actually means the opposite. How can you prepare them? How can you get them

1:10:07ready? And you got to push people. You got to push people. When you push people, they get stronger. When you make when you push them mentally, they get tougher. Now, do we put some take someone that's never lifted before and put 500 lb on on for back squat? No, we don't do that. Just like we don't berate people when they make a mistake in a leadership situation. Just like we don't throw problems at them that are so hard to solve that they get crushed, we try and build them up by little micro what? Micro damage, right? Little micro damage like like what we used to do with

1:10:43our shins for Muay Thai. You know, you keep hitting that you keep kicking that bag, your your shins get tougher and your nerves start to die. And by the way, yeah, you can get out the little the the roller. Yep. The roller for your shins. Yep. The broom handle for your shins. You can

1:11:01kick you kick hard stuff. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing with our people, right? We're we're But you don't take a baseball bat and do a full swing when you first start training Muay Thai. No, that won't that won't work. You don't even try and kick a baseball bat in half when you first started training Muay Thai. You'll be you'll you'll break your shin. But over time, [snorts] as you put more and more stress on the shin, it becomes tougher and stronger and eventually it'll break that baseball bat. Same thing with

1:11:33leadership. Same thing with your people. You don't just put stress on them and degrade them and punish them. No, you'll destroy them. You want to build them up. So, that's what we're doing. We're taking care of our people. [sighs] We're taking care of them. uh so they can be their best and that includes of course from a leadership perspective, a mental perspective, a spiritual perspect perspective and of course the

1:12:00um the physical perspective by the way. It's true. Which means we are kind of getting after it. [laughter] And guess what? When you're getting after it, you're going to need fuel. You need to fuel your mission. And that's why we have Jof Fuel. Joffuel.com. We have protein, we have energy, we have supplementation. We have this new uh creatine,

1:12:20man. It's good. What's the new creatine? It's creatine plus. It's got It's Well, one of them is flavored and it's really good. Um Yeah. [clears throat] So, check that out. We've got greens. We've got time war. We got products that you need. We got products that you need and they taste delicious and they're efficacious.

1:12:41And that's what we're doing worldwide. kind of worldwide. Don't sorry Europe and the rest of the world cuz I do get a lot of like hey when are you sending this stuff when can we buy this you know wherever we are right now it's primarily America we do have Ian down there in Australia get some AU he's out there getting after it but here in America go to any store that you might go to and you can get JCO fuel get the clean JCO fuel if they don't have it there just ask them and and we'll we'll get it there working on it the whole world Well, again, all of

1:13:15America, I need to say for that. Slowly but surely. Slowly but surely. But jofuel.com. Check that out. Also, if you need Americanmade clothing, including jiu-jitsu gear, t-shirts, hoodies, rash guards, boots, sneakers, by the way. Sneakers, good to go. Sneakers, tennis shoes, tennis shoes, and trainers. We have all three. We have sneakers, tennis shoes, and trainers. [laughter] We have all three. Those are they're going to [snorts] sell out quick, but they're 100% Americanmade, which is awesome. So, check out originusa.com to get 100% communist free, slave free

1:13:53hard goods. Hard goods. Hell yeah. Is that the right word? I don't know. No, there's there's another word I was searching for. Durable goods. Durable goods. I was looking for durable goods. There you go. Clothes. Yeah, same. Clothes. Uh, check out originusa.com. It's true. Also, jogglestore.com. Discipline equals freedom. More uh it's not durable good. So I don't know if it's durable or not, but pretty durable as far as t-shirts go. They last long, I'll tell you that. Anyway, discipline equals freedom. Good. Various versions, too, by the way. Discipline equals

1:14:22freedom. Five versions. Five options. See what I'm saying? So, you got one. Hey, get the other four or one of the other four. All available jo.com. Uh, also keep in mind Christmas coming up. Oh, yeah. Good place to shop. for your people for yourself even. There's uh we have gift cards on there too by the way.

1:14:41Nice. See what I'm saying? Yeah. So you can kind of save up for the freaking you know the time or you know the future stuff. Um also Shlock Locker onjostore.com. So Shirt Locker click on the top says Shirt Locker. It's a membership subscription. You get a new design every month. Uh if you are wondering what these designs look like you can go to that page. It'll show you like a little little hint of it just to kind of keep you in the game,

1:15:08let you know what you're signing up for. Anyway, people seem to like it. It's pretty cool. It's all on jacostore.com. Check that out. Also, we got books. By the way, we have Warrior Way of the Warrior Kid books. We've had two of those books on Audible. And now we have all five of the Way of the Warrior Kid books available on Audible. So, if your kid has been uh wishing for those, the wishes have come true. We have all of the Way of the Warrior Kid books. and Mikey on the Dragons. Mikey and the Dragons, all available on Audible, so check those out. And then, of course,

1:15:39I've written a bunch of book books about leadership. And then you got Put Your Legs on by Rob Jones. You got Need to Lead by Dave Burke. So, you can get after that. If you enjoyed listening to this talk about leadership today, you can check out echelonfront.com. We have a leadership consultancy, and that's what we do. We solve problems through leadership. We [snorts] can bring you to an event, we can host an event with you, or we can embed ourselves inside your

1:16:01organization, and we solve problems. Also check out extreme ownership.com. If you want to learn the skills of leadership online, you can check that out. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help goldstar families, you can check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee, she's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to

1:16:20americaasmightywarriors.org. Also, check out heroes and horses.org. And then finally, Jimmy May's organization, beyondthehood.org. We also have warriors.org work and stronghold rescue.org. Got a lot of orgs that are out there doing great stuff. So support them if you can. If you want to connect with us, check out jo.com. Check out the underground, which is where we answer questions. And then there's social media as well, but I just assume you just stayed off that instead of being on there. It's not going to help you. It's going to actually make you a worse person. And to all of our people out there in uniform right now standing watch watch around the world

1:16:59facing complex challenges in a new kind of battlefield. We thank you for protecting us and our freedom. And thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thanks for what you do to keep us safe and protecting us here on the home front. and everyone else out there. Of all these various components of leadership, General Zeiss emphasizes one thing more than anyone else. And I think we know

1:17:31what that is. It's care. Care. Take care of yourself. Take care of your family. Take care of your team. Take care of your community. Take care of your country. This is the most important factor. And you know what? Not just for leadership, but as the general also points out, caring is the key to a happy

1:17:52life. So, take care. And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Ekko and Joo out.