Fom 75K Buyout Offer to 1M in Sales – Eric Duffett, Shot Pattern

0:00Shop Pattern is essentially bringing the moneyball ideas of baseball to golf in a very personalized way. So, it's a golf GPS app. And the thing that makes it different from the others is that it's designed around personalizing your Encore strategy based on your data. Here in early 2026, I hit a million dollars in total sales for the app, which is mind-blowing. Welcome to Launched. I'm Charlie Chapman and today I'm excited

0:27to bring you the developer behind the golf GPS app Shot Pattern, Eric Duffett. Eric, welcome to the show. Hey Charlie, great to be here. Great to talk to you again. It's fun having a fellow Midwesterner here. Usually I'm talking to people all over the world with different time zones and I realized you experienced the same little storms probably that I did just the other day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean honestly just the fact that we can schedule this

1:07using one time zone was amazing. Um it's a rare treat these days, isn't it? Really is. So before we kind of get into your background and everything here, I've started trying to do this like quick elevator pitch, let you explain what the app is because sometimes we get into the story so far and we don't even describe where we're leading. So what is the elevator pitch for shot pattern? When we talked at launch live at Deep Dish Swift, it was pretty evident that the audience doesn't really know golf. So I'll try to keep it as like a very broad description. So, Shop Pattern is essentially bringing the moneyball ideas of baseball to golf in a very personalized

1:47way. So, it's a golf GPS app and of which there are very many. And the thing that makes it different from the others is that it's designed around personalizing your encore strategy based on your data. So, it basically helps you track and then understand and then apply your personal data to a round of golf so that you can pick smarter targets and shoot lower scores. Before we get into shot pattern itself, then I want to give everyone an introduction into who you are. So, the three questions I always ask everybody to kind of kick off the show is where are you from? Do you have a formal education related to what you do? And then what was your career that kind of led

2:25into shop pattern? So, I'm from the Chicago area. I I grew up here. here. I went to the University of Illinois and I majored in finance and I'm a high school teacher by day. So, my background started with a Udemy course that I nearly finished and then I just started building and I got lucky that my high school sent me to an in-person training and like basically a year-long boot camp to start to learn iOS development and that was back in 2016 2017. What was that for? Did they want you to become a like programming teacher? So I basically pitched this class where we were going to start teaching the students how to build iPhone apps. Our school was fairly early in having

3:05a onetoone iPad program. So every student in the school had an iPad and I thought it just made sense with um the Swift language coming online to teach the students how to build apps. And so I pitched the class and then shortly thereafter got trained in how to teach it. That's pretty cool. Okay. So you kind of have that with the the app side, but then also like you're a teacher and you teach did you say you teach finance as like your Yeah, I teach I teach business. So yeah, intro to business and personal finance and I'll teach sports marketing next year. I've taught basically corporate finance. So yeah, which funny enough like all of these things feel like relevant

3:43to what you do now in terms of the business side of of app development, but also you have an you have a lot of experience with with golf, right? So what's like what's your background there? Yeah, I've been playing since I was a kid. Both my parents played. I remember I I loved it as a kid. I loved it be like as Tiger Woods is becoming cool, but it like wasn't cool when I was a kid. I used to like stand in the yard and and swing the golf club was hoping to get to play, but I would

4:08hide the club behind my back as cars would drive by cuz I didn't think it was cool to be golfing. And then Tiger Woods changed all that. And here I am over 40 years old and and loving it more than ever. Golf was like my sport, too. Uh, but I'm a lefty or at least like I was a switch hitter in baseball and this happens a lot where like every pitcher you face is right-handed. So then you just become left-handed when you swing and only when you swing. So that happened with golf. But at least in the like ' 90s whenever I was trying to get kids golf clubs, there was like no left-handed

4:39clubs anywhere. So we would like shave down my my dad's like bigger clubs that he had to make them small enough for me. And yeah, it's funny because like I went from that to, you know, I would get golf magazines as a kid and now it's like this massive industry. I guess it probably was before, but I feel like Tiger Woods kind of like changed everything about that sport. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he really did. And and there's more money in golf now than ever before and more technology in golf. And it's it's a really cool time in golf, but yeah, it's it's still surprisingly hard for

5:11left-handed players to get clubs, especially kids. So hopefully it'll it'll keep getting easier. You also coach golf, right? Is that correct? So, I've coached boys golf and I coached girls basketball. And then as I was getting married and and making a family, slowly I had to wind down coaching responsibilities and I actually started building shot pattern because I found out I had my second child on the way and it just wasn't going to work to coach basketball anymore. And so I stepped down from basketball and I sat still for like five seconds and then I started working on You found a new side project and oh my god, I can't even tell you how much trouble I was in at home, but I

5:48like I think I have another one of those hobbies that's kind of a job again. It had been like a matter of weeks. Oh man. And that that wasn't your first app, right? So if we roll it back, you had gotten this education on app development. Did you take that and immediately think, all right, I'm going to start making apps and putting them on the store. like how did you get kind of into the indie appmaking game? So, it was actually the other order. I was self-taught first because I had an interest. I wanted to make an app and I had nobody to pay somebody to build it for me. So, I started

6:20learning on my own on that Udemy course and then just building and it was a year later that I went to the boot camp and like actually learned a few like best practices and essentials and understood what things mean meant more directly. But I wanted to build a meditation app for athletes. I was a high school coach. I talked about coaching golf and coaching basketball. And I saw players struggling when the pressure was high. I coached a ton of really great players. People playing division one golf and basketball and it seemed like the best players had the most to lose and like were most wrapped up in their identity around the sport. And when it came time to like get a

6:59college scholarship was like really the pivotal moment. Many of them were miserable in their sport because of the expectations from themselves, from others. And I saw an opportunity to help them with that moment, with the pressure they were feeling, and wanted to build an app to support them since most of the meditation content at that time felt a little too fufu for like an athletes

7:21identity. And so I I wanted to build something for them. Yeah, that's an interesting one, too. I feel like a common thing I'm hearing always, but especially lately, is the uh like build for niches, like build the X for X, the the Dolingo for middle-aged moms or whatever. And so that feels like it's almost exactly doing that kind of thing, right? It's like building a meditation app, a very well-worn field, but for this one specific niche. What was your approach to that? Like what made it different than a normal meditation app then? It was really the the way it talked about the athletes experience. I was so naive at the time that I thought I was like, "Oh, well, because

8:03I'd like have this X for Y like sort of approach like very niche mindset. I was going to build an app for golfers, an app for basketball players, and when I got to an app for athletes in general, but I really cared about these two audience. I wanted them them to have their own dedicated app. And I thought I'd just like boom, boom, boom, roll it out. It would all be out released within like six months of each other." and that that just didn't happen. So like basically I I could talk to the athletes in a way that they understood that put context around what they were facing in the

8:33sport and how they could use mental training and mindfulness best practices and like bring it to the context that they were familiar with and talk to them in a way where they were used to being coached. That was really the thing that I saw. How am I going to get this education to the people who need it in a way that they're comfortable consuming it? And then you you got that to the store eventually, right? Yeah. So I I started learning how to code in late 2015. Within six to nine months, it I had an app on the app store and I was off and running and said, "All right,

9:07here we go. Now we like rake in the millions." And did you rake in the millions? It immediately found a massive audience that just came to you. Oh, no. If you build it, they will not come. It turns out they will go do something more interesting with their lives. And I just made every rookie mistake in the book and I'm so thankful I did now 10 years later. But yeah, I mean I subscribed to like the Eric Reese lean startup like ship it early. If you're not embarrassed of your first version then you haven't like shipped early enough. And so I shipped it really early and it was really bare bones and I was super proud to have gone from knowing nothing to having it on

9:43the app store. But the market was uninterested. And as I went further and further and further, I I learned that I really had made some pretty critical mistakes in the order that I did things and the way in which I understood what the people I was building for like how they thought about the problem they were facing. When you say uh you made every rookie mistake in the book, what are those rookie mistakes? Like if you were to just kind of list them? One of the big ones was, I guess, one assuming that if I just put on the app store, the downloads would start rolling in. But another

10:19really big rookie mistake was I sent an email to every single college golf coach in the country, division one, division 2, division 3, men and women. I just said I emailed them all with like my best kind of cold sales email of like, hey, I have something that I think can help your audience. Basically, nobody responded. and a few responded unsubscribe. One wrote me a really nasty email. And then one coach said, "Hey, I'm I'm kind of interested, but I would need you to have an Android app because I have a player on my team that has Android, so I can't even look at this until you're on both platforms." And so my my rookie mistake was one person requested an Android

10:56app and I was like, "Well, oh, of course I need to be there, too. How can I make this happen?" And I basically turned around right away and started figuring out how can I be on Android? and I rebuilt the app to be on Android so I can be on both platforms thinking that was the secret unlock to my success. That's interesting. So because it's like most of what you described I don't think of as mistakes like yeah sending a thousand emails and getting none in response. It's like that is an unpleasant feeling but it's you know shoot your shot like what's the harm? But I guess the

11:28I guess the thing there is overweing the first piece of feedback you got and in particular in that case it's the fact that it requires a pivot to fulfill that that request right it's one thing like responding really quickly to feedback even if it's feels niche if it's a small lift that can that can be the thing that kind of generates momentum I feel like for a lot of apps but creating an Android app is not a small it's not a small lift and it's a thing you have to live with for like the rest of it it kind changes how fast you can move, right? Uh going forward. Yeah. The

12:01mistake wasn't the emails mistake. It wasn't the marketing. It was this was one of the key things was like jumping straight to Android and thinking that just being on that second platform, having more options for for people was the unlock was the secret sauce to marketing to to showing up in a way that college teams and others would want to use this. It just wasn't. So that didn't take off. Did you keep at it, keep building? Obviously, you made an Android app. Were you able to grow it into

12:32something or did it just kind of never get legs? To cut to the point, it basically never got legs. But there were a few key things that happened with that shift to Android. So, I started like looking for options for Android. I called around and said, "Hey, who can build this for me?" And once again,

12:51I still didn't have the money to pay somebody else to build an app for me. So, I was like, "Okay." and a student walked into my office and said, "Hey, Mr. Duffet, did you hear about this new thing called Flutter?" I'm like, "No, never heard of it." Search it up and say, "Oh, okay. This is interesting. Maybe this is what I'll do to be on both platforms." And so, I started learning Flutter. And at that time, I had made a phone call to to a dev shop near me where I had a small relationship with the founder and he said, "You know what? we can't help you,

13:21but there's this school down the street from us where every semester they have students and they need a client to work with their final for their final exam and they're going to do design work for you to help you refresh your screens and make your your app look better. And so I got to work with these three career changer like UI UX students to take a brand new look at the app. And something in that process like just opened my eyes to like the difference that good design could make in just like the polish, the presentation and just thinking differently about how to convey what a user needs to like have access to and and how they move like through an app. working with those

14:05students was like I feel like such a pivotal moment and even though the app like never made more than a,000 or $2,000 in a single year and ironically like had its best years ever the year I didn't pay attention to it at all that seems to be how it um it was co so I think that was the key piece there that was such a huge moment in like my like pay it pay it forward to my future self like go through the the hard learning experience experiences to now I feel like the design the presentation of what I'm building now with shot pattern is part of what separates it and why

14:42it found a market at all. What was it about that process that helped you gain those insights? Was it were you working directly with them and sort of like trying to explain yourself to them and that's the process or were they bringing in like lessons that they learned and and techniques and everything that you you sort of learn to then apply? I think it was more of the techniques because they there was three of them. They each had to come with their own ideas for like what the best look would be. I don't know if they kind of got pigeonholed into a certain aesthetic. Like one was very gradient focused and I don't know if he was like forced to be working with grad

15:22were assigned a certain technique or something. Yeah. So I never asked and they never said but I started to get that feel. But the way they worked through it of like they they showed me three dozen apps and said which like of these which of these are ones that you like and which are ones that you don't like. And then they like every few weeks they would come to me like here's our latest approach to like what we think you should do with the app. And there's just these like really nice touches of like how they would layer text on top of images and the way they would use like

15:57shading and blurs and gradients so that the text was readable. There's enough contrast, but yet it had all of this beautiful imagery and the way to fit those two together. I found myself like using those concepts over and over again when I build a presentation for class or when I put together a little slideshow or when I make a screen of just like you can use basically these layers in between the text and the images so that it all works well together. That's interesting. It's almost like, you know, working with co-workers where simply through that process of being around and seeing other people's work, you're bringing in different ideas and everything cuz at the end of the day,

16:37you're always scrambling to get something done and you grab for the things you've seen recently and those kind of become part of, you know, the way you design and the way you work going forward. I think originally I was trying to be so creative. I was going to have my own design system and style and I was going to do all these new fun things and now I'm just like what is the Apple default that's probably going to be better than whatever I try to come up with. Okay. So you said, you know, it never really took off. It was kind of sitting there. It was earning some money but never became

17:09this like sort of massive business. So where did you go from there? I built a couple free apps at school and I watched what it looked like when you built something that people actually wanted. Basically, my school has a very confusing bell schedule and so I built a really simple app to help people understand what the schedule looked like for the day and where they were supposed to be and it caught fire and still like people use it on a daily basis and it was really eye opening to see like oh like this is what it looks like to get some product market fit and obviously

17:42there's nothing to sell but the fact that people wanted to use it like that was new. nothing had to be forced upon them. And so it really opened my eyes to kind of just better understanding how to fit into a person's existing workflows and needs and not try to really like push this new practice upon them because in the end that's why the the meditation app failed. The the teenagers I was building for didn't already meditate. It was going to be something so new and so out of their comfort zone. they didn't have a problem that they wanted to solve, which is what I eventually found out in my user interviews years after launching the app. And then like since then,

18:23like it just I've watched what happens when you just insert yourself into something people are already doing and and searching for an answer for in some capacity or I guess in your case, I guess it's different. So there's like product market fit and there's distribution. And in the case of like the the app you were just talking about that you made for school, you had distribution like the school network is pretty tight and you can talk to them directly and product market fit

18:51and so it could naturally just spread and then word of mouth kind of does its does its work. Whereas with the meditation app, it's like even if you had product market fit in the sense of this is a thing that's useful and people would like people don't already know to be searching for it in the app store where you just kind of naturally get downloads, right? So maybe you could have found that audience through some other mechanism and then you'd see that all spike up, but that's like a totally different thing. But yeah, once you get a feel for when something's working, you realize like the all the grinding for extra couple of downloads, it's like, "Oh, maybe this isn't worth

19:27worth the time. It feels like it's worth." Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that was a big shift. And yeah, I've talked to some app developers since I started Shop Pattern and and they're talking about the struggles that they're having. I remember one conversation in particular just like it's what I'm hearing you say is like this isn't it. This isn't quite the approach. people don't want what you're offering to them and so we need to figure out something else. And so in your case, what kind of led to the the next attempt then I guess at let's make a you know capital be business for an app

19:59that will make money. Yeah. Having gone through all that when I started building shot pattern one it was just going to be for me. I didn't even know if I could build the first iteration of the app. I just wanted to see with like chat GBT had just come out essentially and I just want to see like can I build this thing? I've been thinking about and use it for myself. You stopped doing bas the basketball coaching and you're like, I'm going to do this little side project for in your head at this point. It's like literally just for you. You might not even release it. Yeah. I had kind of

20:28sworn off app businesses because I had spent so long working on this thing. I'd sacrificed time with friends, time with family, time on the golf course, time like feeling like I was having fun to chase this dream because grit and resilience are these like like amazing skills that you must have. And if you don't like keep grinding as an entrepreneur, then you're a failure. And so I just like kept delaying gratification. And I was just sick of it at that point. And so this was just a hobby. It was just a side project. I just flip open the computer while we're watching

21:01the show. And I was going to have fun with it. And it came together pretty fast at the end. I thought it looked pretty good. What was what was the idea like the initial core of the idea? So the very beginnings was so so so basic. Like when you open the app, you said like like I'm

21:18ready to play golf. It would pull up the satellite version of Apple Maps wherever you were standing. Had no context of if you were at a golf course or where the holes would be. It was just satellite view Apple Maps and it would draw two lines on the screen. a line towards where you're facing and then a side to side line that could show you the width of the area in front of you. Like for me as a golfer, I want it like know 300 yards in front of me like where I'm about to hit my drive. I want to see like a 95 yard wide radius or like cone like an arc. So I can see like yeah an arc to see

21:54if my drive when I hit my driver like where might it land? And you could switch between clubs and just kind of see it jump. Not not you could see you could switch between distances. So basically there was eight different distances in there. You could just kind of like plop it down and so early like people would download it and expect all this polish and they'd open it up at their house and it'd be like pointing at their backyard and like well that's surprising. But it was free. Apple Maps was free. It just drew some lines. And then if you're on the golf course it was kind of like

22:24a almost like a compass. Like if you're holding a compass and you're looking for north, like you can kind of figure out how to find your way on the trail. You just have to know how to piece the two together. I was going to ask, what drove you to do this versus download one of the many, you know, GPS golf apps out there, and I don't use them very much, but I've used them or the ones built into the golf carts or whatever. And I guess the thing that they all do is they tell you how far you are from the hole, especially at the beginning of a hole. or not to the hole, it's to like, you know,

22:56when does it bend? When does where's the, you know, the water or whatever that I'm trying to avoid. So, was that is that the core kind of feeling that drove you to make this was I don't want to know how far I am from the hole. I want to know how far I am from these things that I'm aiming for. Yeah. Exactly. And so, if you imagine yourself in the golf cart, they look up at the screen, they're like, "Oh, I I can see it's like there's some water up there." and you just tap on the screen itself and then you like, oh, it looks like it's about 200 yards to this spot that's just

23:25before the water. What I needed was a way to measure sideways that area next to the water or just before the water, just beyond the water to say like, okay, I know what it is to that spot, but I need to know how hard is it to squeeze my my bad at golf dispersion into that area and like, do I have enough room to hit a normal shot and be able to find my ball? because essentially that's what the the moneyball of golf is. All the moneyball statistics had already been done, but there wasn't a platform where it allowed you to see kind of that width factor. All the

24:06existing apps like just showed you a generic circle as like your aim point, but it didn't give you any context for how big that fairway was or how much room there was between the trees and the water. So that that was the initial idea. You made it You made it free and it was very bare bones. I wasn't even free. It was $20 a year again basically for this like these little measuring tools on the side. Okay. So, you had very basic app then at the beginning and presumably you put it out there and nobody cared at all and this is another app that just kind of is a little side project for the rest of your life and and never really took off. I think

24:42we're here because we know that that's not where we landed. But right away it was different. One, I started like marketing it before it existed, which is a big change. Like I didn't assume if I published it, people would find it. But the bigger change was that when I was marketing it, when I would send out a tweet and it would get a few views, or when I was talking about the app on Twitter, when I was sharing screenshots, when I was in conversations, downloads and trials and

25:06purchases would come in without me ever really understanding who it was or where they came from. It was so much more frictionless that like straight out of the gate that basically within two months I was like this is different. This is working. What I thought was just a little like silly little hobby might be a lot more than I initially thought. And where do you think that was coming from? Like I I can understand the you know it's a thing that people want but is it because or were people finding it because you happened to land on some important keywords and so people were finding it through app store search or do you think it was you're sharing pictures and the

25:48pictures were very visual and people immediately understood it and they would download it and then there was some sort of like word of mouth thing happening. Yeah, more the latter because the best practices that the super nerdy golfers, the very strategic, very competitive golfers had been taught was to go on Google Maps. Google Maps has a measuring tool and you would like measure from the T- box to the landing area, however far your drives typically go and then you'd reset and then you'd measure sideways across that area to see how much room you had to see if you could fit your your driver into that area. So, this is already like this exact mechanic was already a thing that

26:26nerds on presumably like Reddit or something are all sharing with each other and there's techniques that people have, but there wasn't a tool to automate essentially that process. Yeah, people were already doing this as a way to kind of like plan out and fantasize about their next round of golf. And that workflow already existed. And so, I think that was a key moment. I didn't have to convince people that they should spend their time doing this thing. They were already doing it in a timeconuming and painstaking way. And I showed up with just a a little bit easier of a workflow. And that's where the download started to come from. And then like there's this golfer

27:06on a a low-level professional tour that's like, "Hey, I love this. What if you added this? What if you added this?" And just the occasional message from like legitimate golfers saying, "I really like this. And if you added a little bit here and a little bit there, it'd be even better. This reminds me of the episode I did last year with Asia Beckett about which is like a GLP1 app. And it was similar because there was this big community of people who were building these big spreadsheets and sharing around spreadsheets to solve this problem. And I I I think it was her or somebody said in in that episode like if you can find yourself a community that's

27:44doing in like crazy spreadsheets and sharing them around, you probably have an opportunity for a big app because that like the the product has already proven itself out in the sense that there's value here and people are going through crazy lengths to extract it. If you can make that, you know, easier, you have a long way to go. And it sounds like you sort of inadvertently did exactly that. Exactly. And honestly, I listened to an episode with Asia. I'm like, "Wo, like we're so different, but we feel so the same." Like I I know that story. Yes. So I could you also then did you have specific communities that you were sharing it with? Like was this on Twitter or was this were

28:24there Reddit threads like wherever you were seeing the people do this Google Maps thing? Yeah, it was really just Twitter. That was like my social media of choice for talking golf content. And there was people in there sharing ideas about like analytics and strategy. And so that was the place where I showed up and and really didn't have my own audience. But when I jumped in with a screenshot or a perspective in a conversation in a very legitimate way, it like that's where a lot of the early momentum came from. Okay. So it started kind of taking off. you had, you know, you know, pro prom type people using it and giving you feedback. Was it pretty much like there was an immediate

29:02trajectory to this is becoming a business or did you have to make a choice at some point? I'm going to really pour gasoline on the fire and then do a bunch of things to kind of make that happen. Yeah, I feel like there's a couple of like really pivotal moments that forced me to go from this is fun, this is a hobby, I'll work on it when I feel like to like really treating it seriously like a business. And one of those first ones was like two months in, I'm noticing like solid uptick in users and a little bit of negative feedback on just how bare bones it is. And like I said at the

29:40beginning, it had no context of what a golf course was. It couldn't point you towards hole one. It didn't know what the par was. Like all of these really you could use it at in your backyard and it would show you how in arc of what houses you could hit with a golf club. Exactly. And so I was like I in order to take the next step, I need to buy golf course data so that it like knows where where to point you look. No costs, right? Basically. Yeah. the cost of my time was it was really it I' maybe done $800 or $1,000 in sales and it was like like yeah like holy cow like this was all I wanted for

30:15the summer. This is amazing. But this this like leap was the next thing that was really going to be like critical in order for this to be anything. And so I looked at all the options. I was really disappointed to find out that the only way to get started was to spend spend $5,000 upfront on an API to download the golf course data and like have it available in the app. And I for it was like $75,000 credits. I'm looking at my a few dozen users a day. I'm like, well, I'm never going to need that many like but it's five grand up front. And I go to my wife and she's like,

30:49what what are you doing? Like how are we how are we back here already? Is this a hobby or is this a business? Like what's happening with this? when I wrestled with it for so long. Obviously, I I bought I paid the five grand to like buy the golf course data and the next day I'm playing golf with a buddy and I was just like, man, I didn't want to pay $100 for somebody else's golf app and now here I am $5,000 in the hole. So then you had to you had to integrate that. Obviously at this

31:18point it's still you doing the development. Yeah, it's it's still me. I'm doing all the development. I love that aspect of it. And so, yeah, now I have this like liability that I have to go chase after. And so, I'm hustling. I guess it's a nice uh fire under your butt a little bit to be like, well, now I have to do this. Yeah. And made a big difference. And so, I implement it and it's better and it's it's working better and I'm like, all right, like I got to make some money and and so

31:43I'm pushing harder to sell it and a little bit, like you said, more fire in my belly to do that. Did did you immediately see an impact from having the course data in there or was it like uh-oh, you know, it didn't really change the the arc at all. And so it like just kept going up. I'm like, okay, like I'm probably fine. I'll probably be like at zero at the end of the year, but like next year it'll be easier sort of thing. But like I was like, man, like I had $1,000 in my pocket and now I'm like probably not going to have that at the end of the year. Like this might have

32:13been silly. I think this is a theme coming up as well if I remember correctly. Yeah. Anyway, I I look through the API to see all it has to offer, like all the data parameters, and I find the stuff that I didn't even know I had purchased that basically has outlined the entire course, not just the distances, but the shapes of the fairway, every bunker, every water hazard, every green was like these geo points. And I had read in a golf analytics book of like the reason why the strategy is what it's supposed to be is because if we run this simulation of you play the hole a 100 times or a thousand times and your balls go like in like 20% out of bounds,

32:5480% in the rough and or I guess like probably hopefully not that but you get the idea that like we can do the math on what your expected score would be based on your data and like oh now I have these these geo points are the thing I need in order to run that simulation for myself. And so I whipped up a little prototype like it was halfway ready. I shared a screenshot on Twitter and like hey like this feature is like highly illegal if you were to use it during tournament and play but

33:25like it's coming soon to shop pattern and like a that's a tasty headline right there. immediately. That was like the first time where I sent out a tweet to a cold audience where it got some momentum. I'm like, "Oh, like now we're off to the races. Now we have something." Shortly after that, I got like a couple of phone calls from golf influencers, from coaches, from people who were very interested in what I was doing. And like that was a a key moment of like the the leap to buy the data, unlock something that again propelled it forward. Oh, that's so interesting. Okay. So, at this point, did like you started getting notice in the community, was that also translating the sales

34:09or were you kind of still seeing the like a linear track going up or was it a bump at this point? At this point, it starts to turn a little bit more like exponential. Like it's still so early that a little bit of growth, like let's just say I make a $500 in July and I jump to a,000 in August like the the rate like the rate of growth on that if it was bigger numbers is like clawesque. So yeah, it's growing quickly. And the next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call from a golf business who like with two people that I have immense respect for like like man crush in the golf world. Like

34:54you are brilliant people. You have a successful business. People all around golf admire you for like your thought leadership. And they said, "Hey, like we used it. We love it. We're thinking of building something similar, but we we want to buy it. So I was like, "What's your number?" And I was I was so flattered. I was so blown away that I built something that these people I admired wanted to buy. And I was excited at the prospect of potentially working with them. But as soon as we hung up, I was I started thinking about like, "Oh, but it's so early. How would I even like come

35:29up with a number for what this is worth by the day?" Basically, if you're growing at that rate, right? And even if we did a multiple, it would still come out. so low that it would be I would basically be giving away for free. And so I I called around and I remember that I had just found like the state of subscription apps reports and like all of these benchmarks about what good performance was within an app. And I listened to the podcast with Jacob and David and like oh I wonder how mine compares to these different benchmarks. And they had asked me to put together

36:04like a little slideshow about like the what I use within the app. So I put these slides at the end. And I'm like, "Oh, the industry average trial start is this and mine is I can't like I don't know 25%." And trial conversion rate mine is 75% whereas everybody else's is like, I don't know, 35 to 40. And my conversion to paying is like 17%. And I'm looking at these numbers like, oh, like no wonder they want to buy this. This is an amazing app. This is really working. And so we go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. And I asked for a big number that I like no

36:38matter what happens I could be happy with this. I started at like a4 million. Again, I had done like 12,000 in sales and I so I asked for a large large multiple of revenue. In the end, we went back and forth and their final offer was $75,000 and you're not allowed to work on any other golf app. And they threw in that like uh non-compete at the very very very end. And between seeing their the monetary offer is like not quite life-changing, like not a year's worth of salary, just like it would have been a nice cushion with a new kid just like just in the household, but like it's

37:16going to be gone pretty quickly. Plus, like this last second that felt like a gotcha, I was like, you know what? I don't know. I just can't do it. I I'm going to keep it. I'm going to keep working on it. I think there's a momentum here. I looked at the the the social reports and like I have something I can't walk away with it for for that number. It just doesn't feel right to me. So I I said no to the 75,000 and I had a high for maybe a couple of weeks before like just falling into this dark dark hole of like what have I done? Like how stupid are you to think that you are going to

37:51outrun that number anytime soon? Yeah. You had $75,000 in the hand. Uh, and now you're again you have to you have to you have a fire in your belly to to make up for that. Uh, and I I don't think we've mentioned it here and maybe it hadn't happened to you yet, but my guess is that golf, like other apps I've had on here like like Slopes is very cyclical in nature. So, was there a point where all of a sudden you just saw everything slow down and you started freaking out or did you know

38:25what you were getting into? I didn't know what I was getting into. I knew, but I didn't know. And I would certainly intellectually knowing and emotionally knowing are different things, right? Exactly. And that's a key difference that I'm just now like getting comfortable with the emotional side of it. But no, basically I think I I gave a final no for our negotiations in October and like that is right. So that is like so then it's like peak pain financially with peak desperation emotionally is like a bad cocktail and so I was just feeling pretty overwhelmed with like what are you doing? And then I have this four-month old baby and so I'm not sleeping

39:04and like all of that together is like you really screwed this up. You're an idiot. and you're like, and they had mentioned during the negotiations essentially, we put this on our road map. We're going to build what you've built. We just haven't had time yet, but we are going to build it. And so, if you don't sell it to us, we're just going to crush you because we have more distribution, more brand power. We have a full-time developer, and you're you're teaching, and you have a newborn and another child. So, like, it's over for you. So all that's hitting you as you go into the winter

39:40season. Uh I'm presuming that it did everything started either flatlining or at least slowing down quite a bit during that time. Yeah, the revenues drop, the the trials drop, the subscriptions drop, everything goes backwards from basically October through February. And I think that's going to be the case going forward is just like that is a a decline where at the very least your monthlies are smartly turning off their auto renew and hopefully they'll come back next year but like everything is going to take a big step backwards and I I'm guessing like while you know it emotionally it hurts like you knew that this was going to happen but you're just sitting there like

40:25anxiety thinking about the next season like is it just dead now or will it come back? Is it is it still going to be okay? Well, I think it was both. It's like if I don't like keep marketing again, I don't have any paid channels. It's just me trying to think of this organic contact. If I don't keep marketing, if I don't build the next features in the app, then they're going to swallow me whole. And and I did my taxes and I looked at the numbers and that like added even more guilt and shame to this. like, oh, like $1,000 in profit. It's going to take me 75 years to to catch

41:04up to the number that you could have just had and not had all of this stress. Like, oh my god. Like, you are just you really screwed this up. Like, but then the next season started and what what kind of played out from there? So, I I I actually I tried to sell it, but nobody responded to my emails. And I emailed Curtis Herbert and he gave me some really good advice. So, I do want to give him a shout out of like Oh, you tried to sell it like in those down periods. Yeah. I like basically like,

41:31"Hey, I'm kind of interested in in like in being done here." And I just didn't get any traction. Then Curtis talked me off a ledge like, "Okay, I'll just keep plotting along." And so March, there's like a couple influencers that talk about it. It gets a big jump and like things are growing in May and June. And like I'm working on this big feature release and I finally shipped the like feature release after school is out end of June. And now I'm like,

41:58okay, it can't just be this organic push. It's not going to go fast enough. They're coming for you. You have to push harder. You have to do this this year because they told you they're going to build your app. And so if you don't if you don't do it this year, it's over. And so I decided to try my hand at advertising on with Meta. So like mainly Instagram and obviously some on Facebook and I put together a handful of videos and I paid some content creators and I had learned either through SubCloud or another podcast like you got to have a little bit of inventory and let Meta find the best

42:31creative and I threw together this like haphazard very raw screen recording voice over at the last second and put in the in the ad library and just said all right can you find me a winning ad and somehow someway that voice over raw organic video. The one that you did that you didn't pay an influencer to do. Exactly. The one that I did and cost me zero and was just so sloppy. It went bonkers. And I was getting installs for like 50 cents or 80 cents and my Revenue Cat dashboard

43:02is showing me a 30-day LTV of like $4. And like I didn't know you could do this in the postAT world. And I'm like jumping for joy in the morning and I'm telling my wife, honey, I'm going to go get a line of credit at the bank. I'll be right back. She's like grabs me by the collar. What? No. No. Boy, come back here. We were talking about this first. Well, and and just to roll it back a little bit. So, you you said you were seeing the ad spend was what? 40 cents you said. So, I I forget. I think I was I kicked it off at a pretty sizable number because I had heard you need

43:37to spend in order for it to get enough data. So, I think I put in like $300 a day for an ad spend. And then Meta will let me set the go go goal of like I just want installs. And I was seeing after a couple of days of running the ads that the total cost per install was like 80. So 80 cents and your LTV was over $4. Yeah. So like basically we'll just make it easy numbers. Spend a dollar make $4, right? Hence the I want a line of credit. But my my question is the LTV that LTV number was that what you were seeing before you started running ads or were the customers you were getting through

44:16those ads actually way higher intent because of the video? I knew those numbers before I started running ads, which is like part of why I knew that I could like probably make paid work was because I was already seeing this like pretty high conversion that the LTV of a download was solid enough that I could probably make the numbers work. And that that to me is like the biggest thing for most indies I talk to that they struggle with is they hear these stories of like making ad spend work and it's kind of like ah like in their head it's like if I'm willing to spend the money I

44:53know I could do this but I'm just not willing to. But it's like then they eventually go to spend the money and realize well if I put a dollar in the money printing machine I'm getting 80 cents back and like hold on a second that doesn't work. What do you think is what made your LTV so high? Is

45:08that And we're saying LTV just so everybody knows. That's like lifetime value. You said over 30 days. So it's like how much money per download are you getting after 30 days of that user downloading your app basically? And yeah, how do you think you got yours up over that, you know, $4 mark? Yeah, I think again the product platform fit of like I was talking about this way of thinking about golf and I had this product that supported this way of thinking about golf with an audience who

45:38already had these workflows. And so the lowest hanging fruit didn't need a lot of convincing. They just they had a a workflow they were already doing. They had a way of thinking about things and this was just a slightly better mousetrap than the one they were using before. it was new and interesting and like a lot better looking than than some of the other options that were out there if you wanted to pursue this way of doing things. And so again, it just was for the right audience that was kind of willing to take a step back on some common features. This my app like I

46:12focused on the differentiating features first, the ones that you couldn't get anywhere else. And so that was the reason why even though most things were behind the subscription, like people were willing to pay because they're serious about their golf and they couldn't find these anywhere else. And I guess when it came to the ads that you were running, those were also targeted at that same audience because it feels like if you just aim for a broad golf category, you're going to get a huge amount of people who are interested in the generic GPS thing, but maybe aren't into the sort of money ball part of this. So, were you explicitly targeting that that group or did

46:56you just kind of end up landing or am I wrong and actually most most golfers are interested in that level of of detail? I think that's where the creative like really did the job. It showed the app screens. It showed what it did. It it talked about what was happening on the screen and for those people that were already doing those things, it just was a perfect hit for what they already knew and what they wanted. And so the creative creative did all the work of finding the right people and stopping them in their tracks to get them to pay attention and said, "I've never seen anything like that before. Let me look further." I'm not an expert at at these

47:32types of ads. So maybe somebody who's who knows this stuff is screaming at me or maybe you will. Like there's an interesting bit too where the creative like on one hand you want it to be highly successful at stopping people in their tracks and making them download it. But you you want it to be like inverse or negative not have that reaction for people who aren't going to eventually pay, right? So like because because the meta's algorithm is tuned for installs specifically, right? It's not downstream of that. So, they're going to say anybody who clicks on the ad and installs the app, they're going to go, "That's a success." And so, if your creative was really

48:13good at targeting all golfers, then they would be getting like, "Hey, this one's doing gang busters." And they could send I talked to I don't think this wasn't in the launch episode, but the people who make Coco Cocoon notes, they ran an ad that did like incredible like it was just the best ad they've ever run in their life. And it it drove an incredible amount of downloads and it even drove an incredible amount of trial starts and like completely flatlined in terms of the people who actually converted on it because it wasn't targeting their audience. It was just a really really successful ad and it feels like you just succeeded but it doesn't actually help

48:47you downstream. And so it it kind of sounds like in your case you successfully made something that resonated with the right audience and the algorithm found that and then it could start hitting that button really hard. I wish I could say I was smart enough to like do all of that upfront and know like there's the the thesis and we're going to just like approach it this way and and honestly it was mostly just dumb luck and desperation along with enough I guess empathy and intuition for like people like me. That's the key. I think it's like it wasn't strategic in the sense that you're thinking of all those details as we just outlined them, but you know your audience and

49:25the way you talk is aimed at that audience. And so that may be why the one you made is the one that really worked. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And that's that's how it all came together. And again, because I I had all of this time pressure from another job and a young family and and trying to figure out like why did I stop coaching if I'm just going to have something else? It takes up all my time. Like mentally, I wasn't going to like play the the premium game of like, oh, I I'll like get the vanity metrics of downloads and and monthly active users and the revenue

49:57will come later. I really needed it all to work from the business perspective up front. And yeah, that that ad, it just resonated in the right way with the right people and it it just hit perfectly. So then you had this thing succeed. You wanted to take out a giant loan. It sounds like maybe you didn't do that. How did you how did you scale these up then? Basically, it was mid to late July when this is all coming together. It's going really well, but now we have the tail end of golf season, the tail end of like paid ad spend is probably Labor Dayish for the golf market

50:35plus school starting. And so I kind of ride it as long as my budget will let me. I wind it down as I kind of get into the school year and and I just say, "Hey, like we had a really good first year, but we ran out of time and money to push this as far as it will go." But when we added the numbers up at the end of 24, I I look at like I I did it. I outran the 75K offer. And I I already beat that with my not just my revenue, but my profit and what I was able to pay myself. And like now I'm

51:07like, "Oh, I I'm the king now." like I'm back on the other side of the roller coaster. Like I have the money and I still have the assets and like I'm back to enjoying working on it. I'm not feeling so desperate and overwhelmed by by like kind of the pressure to succeed. So that was what two years ago then kind of at that point. It's been a few years since then. Has it been a continued roller coaster or have you been on more of a kind of growth trajectory? You kind of have been figuring the system out. I guess basically I'm asking like have there been a lot of ups and downs since then

51:44or has it been pretty steady? There's still the seasonal ups and downs, but it's been mostly ups. 2025 was an unbelievable year of taking what worked the previous year and putting more fuel, more money behind those systems, building more brand awareness, building more features, just giving staying in tune with like what is my audience asking for? What's going to deliver them more value? And how can I like create videos that both give them value and teach them what the app is all about to resonate with the right audience? And so here in early 2026, I hit a million dollars in total sales for the app, which is mind-blowing. Yeah, that's crazy. Up a little bit from the

52:2675,000 that you walked away from. Yeah. I mean, a lot of that money goes to Apple for their cut and then Meta for for all the marketing spend, but still it it's it is far and away the most valuable employee in my household and fun to work on and it just like yeah, it it's very surreal to think

52:47back to 10 years ago when I sat down with that Udemy course of like I'm going to make an app. I'm going to like figure out how to have an app business. And like I just I I still think that's one of the like coolest things. And not not cuz like for me because I think I'm important, but just cuz I think it's so cool to be able to do that to sit down and like like solve this puzzle with your mind and then show it to people and give them value in exchange for dollars and have it feel like a win for everybody. It's just so cool to me to teach business and have a business and

53:23be able to live in both worlds. And you you still teach regularly, right? Like that's you still see identify yourself as a teacher and that's kind of your your main gig in your head even though you have this big kind of golf app business on the on the side, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still

53:40a full-time teacher. I love my teaching job. My school is amazing. My students are great. My co-workers are great. And so I plan to keep teaching and having the business on right like right next to it as long as I can do both without burning out. Like I really enjoy having the chance to share these stories and lessons at school and I get to teach sports marketing for the first time next year. And I feel like there'll just be so many like practical insights I can bring back into the classroom. But I have a funny story from recently. So, I hit another like a viral video with a feature that I just released just in the past week. And I had just gotten done teaching

54:19my students about marketing, kind of thinking about their intended customer profile. I'm like, what are they thinking about? What do they look like? What's going to resonate with them? And so, I show this this video. I'm like, yeah, I'm really proud of this. This is like my best ever viral video. It's like my best ever day for downloads. And like my target customer, like they look like me, they dress like me, they probably think like me, they're bald like me. And I have a student,

54:41he raises his hand like, "Hey, Mr. Duffet." Like, "Yeah, I'm working on." And he he pats his belly. I'm working on getting a little bit more of this so I can look like you guys like basically I like I'm trying to get a little bit pudgier so I could fit in with the middle-aged men. I'm like, "Okay, thank you for that." He didn't mean anything by it, but he just like thought it was an innocent comment, but it came off as quite the diss. But he know, you know, that's how that's how you resonate with the audience, right? You got a little dad b a little softer middle midsection. Oh,

55:15that's really funny. It It makes me think like a lot of my favorite professors in university were adjunct professors who like were currently kind of living in the field while they were teaching. And it it's almost like you get to do that but with in a high school setting, which I don't feel like is very typical. I don't know how many other people there are like me in the United States that are are living in both worlds, but it's really really fun. Obviously, when I'm teaching freshmen intro to business, their very first ever foray into the world of business, like for some of them, if they can do revenue minus expenses equals profit by the end of the year, like you're

55:53a master of finance. And so it's it's like very different in its complexity, but it is so fun to be able to share stories and to like keep coming back to introducing students to the world of business and and what I'm teaching app development to the world of coding. I have students who are in their 30s now or former students who are in their 30s. I have a former student who works at Apple and so it's like really really cool to try to like just like be excited about what they might do with their future and like be one of the first people that gets to be excited about it with

56:26them. So to your point about you know not burning out, have you brought people on? Have you thought about bringing people on so that it's not totally on you to keep up with everything? especially in the like that middle ground of it's not quite off season but it's school has started or hasn't ended yet. Yeah. So, one of my blessings and curses I love the development side of things. Like that's probably the last thing I want to give up. And so like okay, I'm not giving that up. And the like the understanding of the golf piece of things is a little bit harder to give up than I first

57:04realized. And so I'm looking at these hats that I wear like what can I like offload to somebody? And so back in March, I hired a contractor and for like a 90 day contract to help you with some things. It's been amazing just from like an email automation standpoint to get like the onboarding sequence of emails to like get the website a little bit more polished to take a look at the

57:27payw walls and he's like, "Hey, what if we ran this experiment? What if we ran this experiment? Like I need this blog post from you." And it's almost like having a coach by my side of like, hey, here's what we need to work on in the business today. If you give me this, I will go like finish finish out that job for you. And so I got lucky to be introduced to this person through like a mutual colleague and he's just like really seasoned in his career and has the bandwidth to take on some extra contracts. And so he works honestly, it's not even on the hours,

57:57it's just by like get the jobs done. So, I imagine it's about 15 hours a week for me at a pretty substantial rate. But again, because he's so good and he's like he manages up with my ADHD is kind of like, "All right, here are the like checkpoints or like we're going to schedule a meeting today so we can communicate to make sure we're on the same page." like it's such a perfect fit of someone that's supporting me in the business with the systems and like the processes that are going to now make these like incremental moves upward that like for me to like run the business as a

58:32business are like fundamentals that need to be in place. I feel like normally people a lot of people I have on here because it's more indie at least initially indie focused it's a lot of engineers and it's the same thing where it's like I can't give up coding and that's often the last thing or it's like a different platform you know Android or iOS the opposite of what they do usually I feel like it's like support or something like that. I think this is the first one I've heard where the first person you brought in was almost like a general contractor to help with all the things

59:02around what you think of as the core. It's like, yeah, that's kind of the thing I need is somebody, which I have a team now who honestly that is what they help a lot with, but it's kind of the like, you know, I feel like I you just run around to whatever fire looks the biggest at the time. And having somebody who their head isn't consumed by those things and they can focus on slightly different things or come at the same problem with from a different angle than you can make a really big difference. Yeah. And he's had the experience of working inside much larger organizations and

59:35like running experiments and like basically all of these building blocks of like basic marketing, much of it content marketing just like so obvious to him. And I've been so strapped for time that like I head down building a new like a huge new feature release. Like everything else gets neglected and I'll come back to it like later when I decide that I have the time. But so yeah, it's been very different from what I imagined my first helper being. But I I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's been really valuable. Last night I was sitting there like with an hour's worth of support tickets like I got to stop doing this, but we'll see. Yeah, that's often one of the first

1:00:16ones first ones to go. Although it can it can also be hard because you want that direct line with your customers and like it's so valuable. So I guess the last thing then before we start wrapping things up is where where do you see you know things going from here? This is year three I think three or four I guess finished like three full years of being out there. So I guess this is into year four. I used to think that it might be finished at some point, but I like it's just so much easier and faster to to build things and to like not just for the sake of like, oh, I got to

1:00:55have another feature in there, but there's still so much value to deliver to the golfers that want this kind of thing that I have just more and more to help them achieve what they want to achieve. So right now we're doing a good job of helping them gather their data and the ones that know the game well are are taking that data and they're applying it to their upcoming round. They're thinking about how to use it for their practice. But one thing that I did at the end of last year was I like did this end of season report with all of these stats and all these benchmarks and this synthesis put

1:01:31together with AI where it's like a few pages of a narrative report of their golf season. AI can't do that by itself. You can go to AI and like and and most people listening will know like it'll confidently tell you like here is the answer, but it doesn't do it well in golf without lots and lots of context and benchmarks. And so I think that's a place where there's so much more to help golfers with as it relates to how can I use my data to play better, to play smarter, to understand what to work on. much in the same way that I think just this week Straa released

1:02:08like an MCP connector to claude so you can kind of like query your data in Straa from what I understand something like that will exist within shot pattern soon enough. Oh that's very cool. I don't hear you saying we have to keep adding features to stay ahead of the competition. So to to roll back to, you know, the sort of side talk of like we're about to crush you, you might as well sell to us. I guess that didn't happen. Or do you have a plethora of customers that you're racing racing ahead of at this or not customers, competition that are building the same thing as

1:02:42you? Yeah. So the people who tried to buy it who said that they're going to build it never did. They've built lots of other great things, but not this. And I It's like a double-edged sword. So, is the competition in golf fierce? Yes. And it's getting fiercer with all sorts of people like me that like want to try to make something. And I've seen stuff I've built like show up in some of the best-in-class apps, which like honestly like feels good as much as it feels like, hey, that's that's my kind of thing. But I've been inspired by what other people are doing as well. So I I feel like

1:03:20maybe it's just cuz I've never made anything, you know, worth copying, but to me having like a a clone thing like that is almost like a bucket list thing. It's cuz it's like validating, right? It's like you made something that especially like if it's a big player that if they clone it, it's like like yeah, like this thing was so validating that this big ship noticed and either felt threatened, felt like it was a good idea, or their users were requesting it directly, which working at a big company with competitors, I can tell you that that happens. Customers demand things of you if they see it out in the field. And as frustrating as it can be from a business

1:03:56standpoint, it's like it's rarely validating from a creative standpoint that something you made is sort of like proved out to be genuinely valuable. Yeah, that is unbelievable. I I like don't approach this with an ego need of like, oh, I'm going to put my stamp on the golf industry, but it is cool to see things that I've like built as software show up in other pieces of software at least with like little modifications. That's really really cool. And then from the other competitive standpoint, I think a lot of it is just like I I'm an athlete. I'm

1:04:26a coach. I enjoy competing and like the thrill of competition can like take you in a number of ways. I think you just have to like embrace it. And like going back to the meditation app at the beginning, like part of what that talked about was like are you using competition to like I am better than you or you are or you are better than me and like that defines our worth or do you do I see you as like a necessary part of my own self-development and like without you I could never be as good as I'm going to become because I have to try to compete alongside you. you're just helping me

1:05:08recognize what I'm capable of. And I think always coming back to like yes, it's hard. Yes, we're we're fighting over the same users and resources and and all trying to be better than each other, but we are all like in the same ecosystem uh actually supporting each other. I think that's one of the fun the fun parts of this whole business is when when you see it that way. I there's definitely people making apps that are just making them as money extraction machines. And that's not necessarily bad. You know, I believe in capitalism or whatever, but it's a lot more fun when it's people who kind of have the same belief system but come at it from different angles and you can

1:05:49like have a respectful competition with with a bunch of people. It creates a community. Even in in in my you know my apps there is this kinship you have with people because it's like ah I see what I I've been there I know what you did to deal with that problem or whatever like you know only you really have experienced these same things and so I think it's more fun to to have a like a relationship there to some degree even if it's you know obviously competitive. Yeah. And whether it's like with an faceless, nameless behemoth or someone smaller, I think, yeah, it's it feels a

1:06:24lot better to like play nicely in the sandbox to recognize the same struggle in others. And yeah, as an indie developer, it certainly helps it feel less lonely. You don't have to be alone in your in your like development cuz like there's other people right there who who know what you're going through. I'll end this with the the question I always asked to end the show, which is what's a person or people out there that have inspired you and your work that you'd recommend others check out? Yeah. One of these books on the shelf behind me is probably my most recommended book. The book is called The Only Way to Win by Dr. James Lure and I read it at the near the beginning of my

1:07:03coaching journey and it's really a book dedicated towards high performers who often have spent years pursuing status and wealth and success in the traditional terms only to realize they feel just as empty as they did when they started chasing these things. And it brings you back to what's most important in my life when I am on my deathbed. how I'm I going to hope to have spend my time like who's most important to me and what do I want to dedicate myself to and so I think having that with me as financial success comes as time pressure comes and trying to like keep my family front and center as like it only matters if this is getting better if this is for us for

1:07:50them that we all benefit and are brought closer because we have a little bit more flexibility to go on a vacation or time together or whatever that might be. That has to stay front and center. So, the book is the only way to win. All right, perfect. And then where can people find you and uh your work? Well, if you want to learn more about the golf aspect of things, I'm shot pattern on all social media platforms. But if you want to get a little bit more behind the scenes on kind of developer persona and wins, try to share the occasional emotional struggle, you can find me on LinkedIn, Eric Duffett, and um happy to connect there. I've connected with a ton

1:08:29of people and it's been really fun. All right, perfect. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for for doing this. Our our little live show segment thing that we did in Chicago was extremely fun, but I'm glad we had like the time to to dig in, you know, in a longer full episode here. Yeah, this has been great. Thank you so much for having me, Charlie. Awesome. All right. Well, uh, thank you all for listening. Uh, Launched is part of the Revenue podcast family. If you want to learn more about the growth side of mobile app, the mobile app business, you can check out SubCub, which

1:08:59is hosted by my good friend and colleague David Barard, mentioned many times uh on this episode uh as as uh kind of an inspiration for for Shop Pattern. And then you can check out revenuecat.com to learn about the easiest way to grow and monetize your mobile app business and learn more about Launched at launchedfm.com where we're the same name on pretty much every social uh platform

1:09:24out there. If you want to check us out on YouTube, you can see that I'm in a weird setting right now. It's actually the same setting as normal, but my desk is turned slightly sideways because it's a guest room right now. So, uh you can see the video version of this and uh see, you know, our

1:09:38our pretty faces as we talk. And uh yeah, that's it. So, uh I will see you all in 2 weeks. Bye.