Why Engineers Should Consider AI Consulting (And How to Start)

0:00all right Jason I'm really excited to talk to you today because I feel like you know like I spent a lot of time learning about llms machine learning like how to be a better programmer all kinds of technical stuff my whole life and you know and I feel like nobody talks about other things that are high leverage and are really important like we don't talk about that enough we just I just talk and that's what I teach about I don't really and I I feel like a lot of this other stuff has been really impactful in my life so I'm really excited to talk to you to

0:36help talk about these other things that we should talk about more totally I feel like you know unless you go through the issue of like losing your hands or whatever you just want to think okay if I just learn more Cuda if I get better at lead code like this is how I can become more effective and that's that's just definitely not the case and so let's talk about that so uh we got introduced because we're both doing AI Consulting and can you tell me a little bit about AI Consulting like first of all like who should and shouldn't do AI Consulting so for the most part both of

1:12us we we've been pretty senior Engineers before this new like CH PT wave of of doing things and so what we've done is we've really tried to transition our existing knowledge to sort of at least I think in my perspective help software Engineers become better you know machine learning Engineers or AI Engineers right and I think if you already had that experience of helping other people minimize regret how do you think about doing experimentation or measurement and observability those are sort of great skills that you can leverage for all these new companies that that have never been exposed to these kind of skills uh I think if you're just a new grad or you

1:49know playing around maybe the style of AI Consulting that we do is very different but I I still think there's a world where you can just still try to you know charge for your expertise maybe that's doing automations or something else but um I think in general if you can help someone else it's probably a good chance that you could be a consultant so let's cut right to the heart of it what is the income potential Consulting like why should you care why should you pay attention like what is the income potential what just like be like you've been Consulting for how many years one one or two years what

2:24are your my first stripe check like I created my first like stripe account in July of uh 2023 and at that point I was kind of like sheepishly asking for like 170 an hour you know I slowly got my way up to to 250 an hour but the real breakthrough in terms of how much you can make really just depends on what kind of customers you have and now as I go closer towards you know value based pricing now you know I think for the past like four or five months I've been able to cross about $100,000 a month in Revenue not profit now that I have a team and there's

2:58different ways of finding Leverage but it is you know about $100,000 of uh revenue and I think that's that's pretty surprising for a lot of folks and what do you think your net income like is it do you think it's very you know plausible to pass like a net income of like a million dollars a year I think so I think especially if you have a team it makes it a lot easier right not only should you have a team if you have a small thing that can support you and then also you can you know go out and figure out how to use these different AI

3:28tools to write better be more productive whether it's like email or contracts or search or whatever um I think it's very tractable to do that through having a blended mix of products right you have your highte Consulting but there's also other sort of revenue streams you can think about whether that's you know going down the route of like info products or building SAS you know there's been a ton of different consulting firms that have been doing consulting for one or two years they figure out what the core problem is that they've been solving and then they go productize that in whatever way uh that might look like whether it's software or

4:00courses or maybe they just write a book or something I think some even just start a YouTube channel I mean I've uh you know just to be transparent I my net income has crossed $1 million from Consulting as well um and I think I think I think yours is close to that as well and like um you know a lot of it has been we've been learning together but like let's Linger on this um topic of of like should you do consulting or not so a lot of people people that are watching this are like engineers at tech companies and they're like you know they're want trying to go from level

4:36three to level four level four to level five or whatever these levels that you know fictitious ladders that people throw in your face like in your how would you say like does it does doing consulting beat working at Fang like at your stage at your experience like you know what I think there are a world where there are like almost comparable right like but I think the question is like do would I want to fight the fight of learning the promotion game right it's a different game like if I learn the promotion game it's not a skill I can really take outside of work that much whereas now through Consulting the

5:15game I'm playing is is is less about how do I get a promotion and how do I demonstrate these skills instead or how do I like play the game the skills I'm developing are you know sales and writing proposals and you know writing content and being persuasive and even if the if the cash compensation is almost comparable the skills I develop afterwards are going to be the skills that can you know push into being a like startup founder or running a different business I think those things are definitely going to be very valuable whereas if I become an L6 and I develop the skills of protecting

5:48my team against directors it's just a good different set of skills that might not be as fun doesn't it seem really important to build skills that are going to be very robust especially when everything is changing with you know like things are coming you know like Ai and whatever like we at the heart of it but like don't you think I mean like you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow like you could get injured you could lose your hands you could anything can happen right I mean now I'm in a place where I maybe this is a little arrogant but I feel like I can at least

6:22now that I know that I can sell things my confidence and my ability to make money regardless of whether or not it's Tech has like skyrocketed you know like I feel like there's a world where if you said Jason like I'm gonna take all your money and you have to start a like landscaping business I now somewhat feel pretty good that I could do that and I feel like that's that in a way is the thing I I gain a lot of my confidence from now right it just so happened that the product which is me is avable at this time but that wasn't the case I can

6:56still be an entrepreneur I can still be in business and that is it's hard to describe like how uh calming that is in certain ways yeah it is extremely calming it's actually it's it's actually given me a lot of uh peace and just like excited about the many different things I can try yeah like I'm now like a little bit of an investor a little bit of advisor maybe I can like buy a company and work with that you know I can probably be pretty productive on like a board of directors the the world really opens up once you start becoming an entrepreneur and really thinking about sort of like

7:36business as a skill to develop so you talked about um you know marketing writing proposals yeah communication all of these things but we in pricing in all of these kind of you know other things that are not coding but you know what we are told if you're working in Tech and if you like open social media is like you should keep coding like you should become a better engineer that is the path to you know success ultimate success is like you just become a 10x programmer do you is that good advice like I I know how I feel about it yeah but now it's better advice because

8:19if I want I also want to hire that person right sure but like I want to fire that person because hire that person because they are the better point of Leverage for me like of course the real estate developer wants people who who like lays bricks as quickly as possible and works weekends but it's not necessarily the best thing for the brick layer right like and obviously if you if you see the people who are successful it's always you know I ran my own like garbage truck and then eventually at some point I became the owner of the business but at that point if the problem you're solving

8:47is a hiring problem then what you're looking for is just like someone else who just you know works very quickly and works long hours and again like you know it's almost like a auto exploitation like you yourself want to be able to exploit your own body and your own mind like create Capital but the issue is you still to make someone else more money I think the fun thing about with Consulting is you're at least recognizing that and asking for a piece of the pot I think that's so people telling you to like double down on coding become a 10x to move from like let's say the the median programmer to

9:21like the 10x programmer and even to from 10x from like let's say the top cortile programmer to like the top 1% programmer um the reason why we get that advice is I think it's in the interest of the people who are allocating capital to of course like you said I think you had an analogy about a hor a race horse oh yeah you know it's like uh when you breed racehorses to be as uh as strong as possible there's always some kind of like resource constraint and so what happens is like the racehorse that is very fast also has just bones that are less dense right which is great for the

10:00person making the bets but it's also not that great for the horse right turns out this is why you like put down horses when they get when they you know roll their ankles um it just depends on like the fact that what the resource for the horse is its own body but the resource for like the stable or like the owners like that entire thing is just a single resource to allocate somewhere else and make bets against right and seeing both sides of it it's like yeah I would love to hire someone that I can pay a flat salary and then works as much much as

10:30possible right I would more leverage so what you say yeah and then like yeah and then you're just like totally Expendable like you said like the moment yeah you know your legs break you just find another horse exactly exactly and I think that that uh that's true of programmers as well that's that's true of like uh and obviously there's a difference if you're just like passionate about the craft like I'm not saying like don't love the thing that you're doing but I think there's another world where when you look at like all the layoffs happening and sort of people are thinking about their career like many people who are great programmers

11:02don't care that they're great PR this is just like a job that pays the bills you know and recognizing that is is very like enlightening right like there is a case where like you get laid off and the next day the business is operating as usual and we have 30% layoffs like all over the place in the past couple of years especially during Co yeah and so like okay you know I've had this experience this like amazing experience you know like you know to be honest it's taken me a long time to realize that I'm you know 44 years old I only discovered this uh Consulting this

11:41idea you can do independent Consulting yeah and you can start your own business such high leverage maybe like two or three years ago if someone I wish someone had told me like showed me uh you know giving me a some of information when I was like much younger uh maybe like even five or six years ago maybe even 10 years ago would have been really powerful yeah I think a lot of it is just the fact that because our circles is sort of Silicon Valley there's always this like high status AER of being a Founder right and there's different reasons might like one might want to be

12:14a Founder you know if you do think you're going to change the world that's great but between this and making a new weather app like I rather just like sell that weather app and build a cash flow business and that's totally fine but in the Silicon Valley world like that becomes a lifestyle business and that's that's true cuz like that's the whole like sort of status treadmill that's been built around me is like you know before I discovered Consulting it was like hey let's climb the ladder of whatever engineering success and then like ultimately become a Founder do you think like being a Founder also is like a form of

12:51Oppression just like the racehorse like you're just being leveraged by capital in ways that many times don't make sense for you I think there are a lot of businesses that have raised Venture money that don't need raise Venture money I think investors know that for sure right um but yeah I think I think you know from my understanding after the social network came out there's a lot more young people that wanted to be Founders because they see sort of the the maximum upside right whereas I'm from the tons of Founders and allot of their stories is just like running out of money and like co-founder breakups and like claing

13:30back equity which is also part of the the the social network but they just forgot about that part exactly yeah I almost feel like the expected value of like doing an indie business is way higher uh you know than a lot of other things to pull in like the machine learning terminology I think the it really is about the bias variant straight up you know like I can really easily become like a comfortable millionaire doing independent Consulting but there is no chance I become like a billionaire I mean there's not even a chance that I see myself making 10 or20 million doing consulting but that is possible if you raise money

14:18and you can raise money at multiples that are very compelling and also be able to sell secondaries and then you know create a lot of fomo around that to to sort of get access as like at a higher leverage but that's just not really the game I want to play and most people still fail so a lot of people watching this are going to be like oh that's great HL Jason they're both talking about doing consulting this talking about how successful it is but I'm not Hamill I'm not Jason I don't have lots of social media followers no one knows who I am do you need to like

14:49have tons of social media followers and have a big following to be like to get started and Consulting um so you know you know I would say the answer is like both yes and no because it does definitely makes it easier but this has also been something we've been investing in right so I started Twitter last year with 500 followers and now I have 30,000 like I think when when I started Twitter you had like 20,000 followers and I've been kind of like watching your profile grow as well but I think what Alex heroi says best is you know there's four ways you can get customers right there warm

15:24outbound cold outbound free content and paid ads and really what we we've done both of us is we've gone the route of investing in free content and likely you know I spent about a year doing this I'm you probably spent like many many years doing this which is also why you're you're still ahead of me but then there's also like warm outbound and cold outbound and I think I've seen a lot of companies succeed in both those worlds right if you have a lot of connections like if you left to Facebook for example you can use your directors or your you know managers to reach out to other

15:55companies and make warm referrals I know that imerge house Andy Alters he does a lot of cold outbound with like bottles of whiskey in email right there's many different ways of getting customers and it just so happens that our method free content is the one we chose to invest in but there's many others I do agree free content you made a comment to me that I thought was really profound a couple of weeks ago and that comment was I posted a blog post about llm as a llm as a judge it was on the front page of Hacker News your first reaction was oh that's so easy and I 100% agree with that 100%

16:33I know exactly what you're thinking and it's so right can you and no everyone else looking at it is probably like damn Jason's just like you know Jason's like whatever uh you know teasing haml or whatever but no that's not the case it actually is easy in a lot of respects can you talk about why that is I did just think too many people don't write so if you already publish something you're you're already winning like it's so easy to beat most people because most people have not entered the door most people have like never opened the notepad and most people don't never publish right and usually

17:15when I hear people say like oh but like the my writing's not good like man I was through all of high school I was getting like seiz in English like I hate writing I I think I'm a terrible writer it doesn't matter I just got to publish right and I think you know this year I had like seven posts get on the front page of Hacker News right um and I just think not enough people publish right everyone is like too perfectionist but the line I challenge everyone else who's listening is like if you're such a perfectionist name one thing you've done perfect I can almost tell if something

17:46is gonna be on the front page of Hacker News now before I even share get yeah I mean you just get a feeling inside but I think that goes to the earlier question like do you need lots of followers and you know potenti like I don't think you do yeah I mean I remember when your article went out it's like you know people on Twitter are not like we are not leveraging Twitter to get more Hacker News up votes like I don't know if you you do this but I have never really gone like dming people telling them to like hey I've done a launch please like it just happens and it just

18:22happens because most people don't write about their expertise because most people are not incentivized to write about their expertise if you're an l an engineer Google like why do you care about writing a block post right doesn't benefit them a little bit right but it benefits us because we're incentivized to do so and when we do we have like a 20% hit rate that's really interesting and like um you know I found that getting your first client and starting to get that first like check yeah allows you to think completely differently about your time and like it makes sense to invest in writing content it makes sense to

19:03hire an EA it makes sense to take that course it makes sense to do whatever because like there's a direct path between that and you making more money it's not some like ephemeral like you know the thing can you talk a little bit more about like how all this starts a flywheel yeah I mean I'll say this one thing that has really changed my mind on how I like run a business you know there's this Tik Tok that's like this is the rich mentality and this is the poor mentality and the question was like here's a bag and I'm going to ask you you know uh this bag is

19:38$500 want to buy this bag and the joke was that the poor mentality will always go like [ __ ] you like I'm not buying a $500 bag whereas the r fality is oh what's in the bag right and I think the moment I stopped thinking about what do things cost me versus what do things get me right what is the return on the investment I'm going to put in like okay like if you if I buy this bag for $500 and inside is like a PS5 then the bag is free right um and just having that mindset has has something that has been really really helpful right it's like I

20:12spent maybe like $2,000 on reading about books on pricing but it's like $2,000 and months of my time absolutely really would I realize oh I ra I should have just gotten a coach they would probably yell at me for like two hours and I would have just been making more money way earlier and not to mention the entire tax code and tax system is geared towards business owners so like if you're on a W2 a lot of this stuff you can't write off at all and there's some amount you can but you largely can't and so like you can actually all these investments in yourself and these things

20:50around you and stuff like that the expenses uh you know associated with that you can write all of it off um and it just yeah I found it to be very freeing in that way yeah if you think about it like I think I've spent maybe like 20 $330,000 in like self-education to be a better consultant but the leverage was that I I went from like 30,000 a month to like 100,000 a month right it's like that was a return on investment the fact that it cost 30 to make me half a million dollars extra is kind of the ROI right and it's costing you like half a million

21:23dollars a year to not know how to make a half a million dollar so anything that you can invest in that it's kind of the right direction so one of the first question I get when I tell people about encourage them to do Consulting they're like haml um but don't you have to spend a lot of time like finding clients doing marketing the administrative work billing so on and so forth like doesn't isn't that like really annoying and doesn't that you know get in the way and um I have a specific reaction to that but before I react to it maybe I'll let you react to it I mean when I hear

22:00that I just think of the people who are like oh I don't want to go to the gym because I want to get too jacked you know it's like you haven't even started like get in the door right you know chances are you're not going to have that many clients and there's not that much admin work right you're GNA probably create one stripe checkout link for like $4,000 and you're G to hope that they pay it but ultimately the real thing you want to focus your energy on is how can I get as much proof as quickly as possible that I know what I'm talking about and write it is one of

22:29those way referrals is one of those ways having a like rewriting your resume is one of those ways right um but I think overthinking about what s like what busyness you might run into in the future is is probably not a good use of time I mean yeah and my reaction is it is way more painful to do the things that you are doing right now which is a doing perf reviews doing lots of useless meetings lots of politics of various kinds um and all kinds of other [ __ ] that you do in jobs that don't that just waste your time and like you if you cut all of that

23:12out now you have a lot of time to do you know the marketing and all that stuff it's no longer [ __ ] you actually like every time you do it you make money and so my the answer is like do you want to do perf review for $0 or do you want to do some marketing for and make money off of it and it just like you know is just a perspective that's like I I I just don't think I think it's actually harder to stay in the status quo yeah I mean it's again it goes back down to like risk reward right you know if being

23:51a Founder is a billion dollars plus or minus a billion dollars maybe being a you know consultant is like a million dollar plus or minus half a million dollars then being a salari person is like $300,000 plus or minus $100,000 you know they're all kind of like on the spectrum of like how much risk you're willing to take but ultimately I think too many people are not willing to take any risk and if you're like three four years into your career you know I think it's a good time to start taking those bigger bets and it's scary but it was scary for me to start Consulting thing it was scary for me to

24:26start courses the payoff really came out so one thing I want to talk about is constraints the magic of constraints and what you've learned from that so what I mean by that is look in machine learning we've seen time and time again that like you know people in Labs without tons of compute they've come up with like really amazing methods and you know state-of-the-art things that because of their constraints um you see it all the time in all kinds of field that people with constraints they're actually very Innovative you lost your hands at some point and I thought I think that's like really interesting because I actually

25:02think those constraints of like your injury really like help like yeah can you talk a little bit about like surprising things you learned so I still actually have my physical hands so what actually happened was I have uh I have tendonitis in both my wrists and that's been going on for about four years now so I just I just feel out of pain if I I spend too much time typing uh which is sort of counter to all the amount of writing that I've done all the code that I've written um a lot of it has really come to the fact that if I was to if I

25:33lost 50% of my ability to code you know is it actually worthwhile to try to get 20% of that back or if your outcome is equal to the fourth times The Leverage that you have why not just find a longer stick to pull and so a lot of the process I think about now is when I write open source code I want that to be used by many people if if in order for that to happen I need to write more documentation and make sure I think about you know SEO optimization you know that is first and then being a better Library almost com second to actually making sure that

26:05people are using it to begin with right in my writing a lot of it now has to do with using things like Loom to transcribe my text and then using things like a cloud project to generate essays that has allowed me to bring a lot of the writing time down from maybe most people might take days but it takes me about 45 minutes to write a single block post and again what that lets me to do is really just improve the volume and improve the amount of practice I get doing these things I think as a I really love it yeah this uh writing style that

26:37you have adopted it was like very early on from all the people I know that has been doing this because of the constraints yeah and I have adopted it we like it I like it so much that in answer AI we have adopted it so like when we do when you like do a blog post like you know Jeremy and I will do a recorded video we'll go through a cloud project and we'll translate it down into a blog post that's awesome it's really like I can draw a straight line between that and and you doing it so um I think that's really good um so can you tell us a little bit about

27:12like why did you decide to teach this course on Consulting so we've been talking about Consulting and you know a lot of people ask me questions about Consulting but I just don't have the time to tell them everything I know I tell you everything I know but it's just I'm you know can you tell me a little bit about okay like why you decide to do this I think the main reason is because this is just the way I like to learn one of the ways I like to learn is to be able to only be like a couple years ahead of other folks and then and

27:42teach that back that's kind of my method of learning and when I started out I just couldn't really find that many resources and actually figuring out what it means to just charge more for your expertise right uh the first six months I was like man I'm charging like1 170 don't know what you should do and then one of your friends will say you should charge $1,000 an hour it's like what the [ __ ] I can't do that I know these people you're going to like make me like all my friends GNA hate me right like my first few customers they they they shouldn't do that right I'm just lose all my

28:12friends and you know all these people give advice on the outside and just none of it really makes sense also say oh you should look in a mirror and like just keep doubling the number and start until you start like you know uh laughing at yourself and it's like this makes no sense and so just through my own like suffering I've been able to figure out what it means to be able to charge more for myself and through my friends that I've helped you know I've seen many of them like increase their income by like 50 to 100 to 200% and so that's like wow okay like I think I figured out

28:44something that is useful I'm still fresh in that perspective like for example if McKenzie gave a course on how to charge more as a a consultant I don't know if I would take that course but that's not the course that you should take so I think like to your point you want to take a course from someone that's one or two years ahead of you and not more because like the person that is like seven years ahead of you they're going to be talking about how to scale a large organization how to sell your consulting company they they would have forgot how to start yeah half the books on

29:18Consulting are like yeah how do you do an exit and how do you hire contractors right and that's just not really what makes sense now especially when AI allows you to do lot of this automation as well and like no course or no no Consulting book I've seen really captures this idea of now that llms are out your expertise is even more valuable and now the LMS are out your your need to hire to scale has changed dramatically and so now I think there is a world where like you can make a million dollars if you just sort of you know take some Zoom calls take

29:50transcripts convert them into information and build out this like information product that is yourself can you give us a a high level overview of the kinds of things you're going to teach in the course yeah so the course is three days the and and really it goes like this you know number one be famous number two change your mindset on how what price means and three learn to ask for more right and obviously these are sort of some cheeky titles but ideally the I the general message I want to send day one is that the content you write is the sawdust of expertise based Consulting right I think when Lumber

30:26Yards First brought in people to figure out how to make lumber yards more productive one of the biggest things they realized was if you just took the sawdust turn them into particle board you can basically increase the value of this entire Facility by 50% because particle board industry now is like a multi-billion dollar industry and in the same sense you know when you're doing interviews or doing podcasts or giving advice to companies even if it's like a free call this information that we can write down turn into content and have that content both Market yourself to generate leads but also show evidence that you know what you're talking about

30:58and converts uh leads into sales right the second day we're mostly going to focus on the mindset shift it takes to go from this like hourly based Consulting to you know projects and value based Consulting and this is when you really change from having a sort of business where you just sort of talking for money to really understanding that you need to find the customer in the most pain and and helping you just overcome these beliefs on what it means to sort of exchange value and money and that to me I think that will be like the most important lesson for me because that is something again that took me a long time

31:31if you look at how I'm billing now if you if we brought it down to hourly like there are customers that are doing like $3,000 an hour and it doesn't make sense if you say $3,000 an hour but really if I told you that these companies expect to make a hundred million a year then you realize okay the value of the prom has nothing to do with me and what my value is I'm just a vessel to help them get to that final goal and what I deserve and exchange is a small percentage of that pie and so that's kind of one of the big things to

32:01think about in the last section is really just the systems that I use to write proposals right the first two lessons are mostly about how do you think about these things how can you get these customers and at the very end it's really just about how do you demonstrate that you know what they want how can you be responsible for what they want and how can you be paid as if you're responsible for what they want to get and by doing that you actually are able to build a business where you have more free time right earlier on in the year I was working like 90 hours a week and now

32:30I take Like Mondays and Fridays off I'm really excited about it because I've had the because I talked to you often and I know your what Your systems are because we do we share them and I they work they work really well because I use them yeah I mean we we have a good history of all of our pricing pages and our landing pages and how that's changed over time so it's extremely effective and like I mentioned earlier I wish someone would have given me this information in this format maybe like six or seven or eight years ago it would have been really impactful so I'm excited that you're

33:06doing this course so that other people can get this information right now um I guess like the last question I have is okay this sounds like a really like a really like good course um but like why why is now a good time to do like AI Consulting yeah I think there's just so much I fundamentally believe that there's just a lot of expertise that has not been written down and no one has had the incentives to write this information down it's like you you and me are doing this because this is part of our livelihood Eugene really is to me the crazy one out he's

33:40just doing he's just doing it right I love the game yeah but not many people are sort of financially rewarded to write all this information down even open AI is not really publishing as much they used to yeah and so I think if there are more independent Consultants whose expertise is valued and they can justify writing this down we're we're finally able to sort of pull this information out to the world and I think that's an easy way of being compensated for doing that kind of work right um versus like just being like you know a patron by some billonaire that's very very few of us will ever get that chance

34:16on top of that I think classically Consulting really scaled through just hiring more contractors but I think in a world war your expertise is so valuable especially around this like AI stuff being able to Leverage llms again just gives you another multiplier on how much outcome you're able to drive and sort of how much output you're able to produce as a single individual which makes this business a little bit more tractable for those who also value things like work life balance and having more freed time yeah I think what you what in the things you said are really important it's like okay there's a perception in a lot of

34:49circles about Consultants being leeches and parasites on businesses and just being just overall you know detrimental but I think in this AI independent AI Consulting where one of the like uh byproducts is you writing about you know your knowledge you get to pull upon lots of different observations you have working with lots of different companies and when you write that it's actually super impactful and it like helps everybody because it's a quite unique perspective and like you said like no one else has an incentive to do that can't do that at a W2 job number one because you only have sample size of One MH uh but then number two is like

35:37you just not you're not paid to do that so it's going to make your life more miserable um yeah like maybe it's for recruiting efforts but then the content you write is also going to be very different yeah yeah exactly all right Jason no it was a really good talk to you it was fun to dive more into uh your background and Consulting this course that you're doing if you're listening to this uh look at the notes or the you know the next reply to this or whatever it is there'll be a link to Jason's course yeah if you want check it out yeah if you think the course is a little

36:11too early there's also like the newsletter and then you can just visit learn IND consulting.com just do the course don't listen to Jason just seriously just do the course um it's really good I've got an inside Peak into it and I don't promote any I've never promoted anyone else's course but this is a really special course because it goes into kind of like something really important to me which is like gaining your freedom in in a way that I think is accessible to a lot of people in our audience yeah so I think it's really good thank you thank you all right Jason take care