Jessica McCabe: How to ADHD

0:10hello and welcome back to Franklin Cy's twice weekly podcast on leadership with scottt Miller that's me I am privileged after six years and nearly 400 episodes to still be invited by Franklin cvy to host this podcast the world's largest podcast dedicated weekly twice weekly to leadership Franklin cvy of course you know as the most trusted leadership firm in the world co-founded by the simal author Steven R cvy of the book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People Franklin cvy helps organizations around the world to build cultures that are steeped in trust that are more disciplined around executing on your top priorities that build a more disciplined

0:49focus on how you manage your time your energy and your attention which is why today's guest is so perfectly suited to our podcast her name is Jessica Cabe you know her as the YouTube sensation and the author of the book how to ADHD an Insider's Guide to working with your brain not against it Jessica welcome to on leadership thank you I'm really excited to be here it's great to have you here because I think we all know that everyone now has some level of attention deficit whether you have a formal diagnosis or you don't I don't know anybody that's not suffering from an onslaught of attention demand and I

1:32think you're going to be a great conversationalist today to talk about what is it like to have an ADHD diagnosis how do you thrive within that how do those around you thrive working with you or for you or married to you or being parented by you I also think you'll be a great um guide to us to kind of understand you know how do you know if you actually have an ADHD diagnosis how do you how do you get one and how do you just know if you're a person without that that's not maybe neurodiverse that is just dealing with daily life as well so we'll talk a lot

2:02about this first I'd love to have you rewind a bit because really you started with this amazing YouTube channel there's a great story in how that was built and how that came now to be in print form with the book how to ADHD rewind us and talk about your media Journey yeah so I started by failing at life just epically epically bad uh to the point where I was like this is not working I at 30 31 32 years old I was broke divorced living at home with my mom I had ruined my credit um I my career was going nowhere just nothing in my life was going well um I I got

2:39married but you know I was divorced within a year so it I had unpaid parking tickets stuffed into my car just like I was I was a hot mess um frankly and it something clicked for me that year where I realized I was no longer this this person with so much potential I've been told that I was so gifted growing up I had so much potential if I if only I tried harder you have so much potential and after 32 years I was like I don't think I'm somebody with so much potential anymore I'm quickly becoming somebody who hasn't reached it I realized there was an expiration date on

3:12this potential right like I mean you die right like at that point you're not going to reach your potential but even even before then like you know people were going to stop stop investing in me and stop believing in me and I was stop starting to stop believing in me and what's worse is I had been putting in the effort I had been trying hard I'd been doing everything that everybody recommended that I do to to be successful and I was still failing I felt like I was trying so much harder than everyone around me and I just kept falling farther and farther behind and so I did something kind of remarkable

3:45which is I stopped I decided to stop trying for a little bit and rather than put all this effort into trying to be successful and trying to reach my potential I would put that same level of energy and effort into figuring out why I wasn't what was getting in my way and the only clue I had at the time was I had this thing called add and so I decided to start learning about it maybe there was something more to it than you get distracted and meds help you focus um and so I started learning about it and it turns out yeah there was a lot

4:12more to it and I decided to put everything that I learned on YouTube where I could actually find it again because I lose notebooks I lose planners I lose phones I would lose my head if it wasn't attached my mom would tell me growing up YouTube was the only thing I wouldn't lose so I decided to put my effort into into making these videos put this information out there and make it public in case if it was helpful for anybody else and it turns out it was Jessica it seems like there has been an evolution where we talk about this now as ADHD you really hear add anymore is

4:44there a distinct difference has kind of the the conversation moved to ADHD from what you understand not as a clinician but all of your firsthand research and living it what's the difference between ADD and ADHD well the first thing that I learned when I decided to look into add is that it's not called add anymore it's called ADHD it they used to distinguish between ADD and ADHD and add was essentially the primarily in attentive presentation of what we Now understand is still ADHD so it's a very confusing name it's not the best name in the world but um it's ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder the reason it's not a great name uh

5:19there's not actually an attention deficit um this is actually incorrect it's difficulty regulating our attention um but also you don't have to be hyperactive to have it and so I found even though I wasn't from my understanding at the time I wasn't hyperactive like my brother my brother had been diagnosed with ADHD um I still had it and then now there's also combined type but it's all under this umbrella the umbrella of ADHD there's primarily an attentive presentation primarily hyperactive impulsive and then there's um what I and most people with ADHD have which is combined type you would qualify for both diagnoses you are dealing with inattention but also

5:55impulsivity and hyperactivity and it just can show up differently and girls and women so it often does get missed Jessica tell us how does someone know that they probably should be tested and what does be tested look like I mean how does how does the normal person I say normal meaning Cally that feels like they are are struggling with their attention with you know regulating their attention management how does someone know you know maybe this is serious enough to where I ought to put some more time and effort into this and maybe go through a series of tests or assessments to determine if I or not so at least I

6:30can make some decisions on how best to manage it or not manage it yeah well you already named the first thing which is it's serious right so if it's something that's in impacting your life on a day-to-day basis then that might be something to worth worth looking into um if it's serious but it's only been happening since you had a kid or it's only been happening since you changed jobs that's probably not ADHD right ADHD is a chronic it's lifelong condition for the most part so um if it's something you've been struggling with your whole life and it's impacting your life on a day-to-day basis and you notice that

7:03other people don't seem to struggle as much as you do then I think it's worth looking into because here's the truth the things that people with ADH struggle with are things that everybody struggles with sometimes everybody loses their keys everybody gets distracted everybody's got a lot of Demands on their attention and might get pulled away from their goals um Everybody struggles with these things sometimes it's the extent to which people with ADHD struggle with it that really makes the difference what can you tell us about the process of actually the diagnosis of ADHD is it a scale is it a yes or a no is it a series of tests walk

7:39through what someone might expect if they decide to go further and what does that look like and then what are the ways in which it's being treated one way I've heard it described right now is it's a bit of a wild wild west because we used to think that ADHD was something that was only a childhood condition so um so you'd go to your pediatrician or you would go to a psychiatrist or or somebody to um to diagnose that in kids but in adults there actually are no formal guidelines for the diagnosis and treatment of adult ADHD because it's still something that we're just beginning to understand as

8:15well as we do so there is an organization that's working on formal guidelines but because there are no formal guidelines right now the the truth is it's going to depend it will depend on the type of a professional you go see what that process is going to look like and it will also depend on um that individual person's biases so I've been to doctors that will not prescribe stimulate medication at all they're not comfortable with it they have a lot of myths and misconceptions still bouncing around in their brains about how it works and then others are really really well educated and they have you know

8:48they've done extra development on the understanding of ADHD in adults and they're really really good so it's a mixed bag so the first thing I would say is um go to a doctor go to you go to a nurse practitioner you can go to a psychiatrist you can go to a psychologist there's all kinds of um professionals that can diagnose ADHD but then listen to your gut if they dismiss you a great thing to do is ask why so if they're like no this is an ADHD this is just depression or no it's not ADC or it's just anxiety or no it's not adhc this is just you know normal that

9:20everybody struggles like this cool what makes you say that like what is making you rule out ADHD because it's not it's not like a pregnancy test you don't pee on a and it's like yes you definitively have this right um it's it's really it depends on the practitioner they have to have a conversation with you there are scales you take you take these tests you go in and you fill out um you know these these scales I actually got to visit Connor's rating scales um in person and it was really cool to talk through them about or to talk through it with them about how they actually rate these scales how

9:53they how they develop them um and they're pretty sophisticated but you know it's it's an art more than a science it's not it's not perfect um and so a lot of it is the psychologist or the nurse practitioner or whatever is also doing their best to assess what what's going on with you so you're self-reporting these symptoms but they also might you know ask ask to see your report cards from your when you're a kid or talk to your partner and see what their outside perspective is um they will also just have a conversation with you about what you're struggling with and at the end hopefully what you get is

10:25an accurate diagnosis but it can be really hard especially in adult to pick apart what's what because people who are depressed also have a hard time focusing right people who are super anxious or have PTSD might also have attentional difficulties or motion disregulation which is a big aspect of ADHD so it can be really complex trying to get you know get an accurate diagnosis get that assessed and picked apart um but it's really really critical that you do I think it's really important to understand any piece of equipment that you work with on a regular basis and understand how it works so that you can work with it more effectively so while

10:59it can be a little tough to get an accurate diagnosis um it's well well worth it when you do that was extremely valuable because I think people if you listen to it carefully you know what to ask and what to look for you mentioned emotional disregulation in that series talk about what that is it's a term I've actually heard quite frequently the last couple of months what's emotional disregulation yeah so um emotion disregulation in ADHD basically emotions will pop up for us the same way that they would somebody without ADHD without emotion disregulation but for us um being able to regulate those emotions after they pop up is the challenge so a

11:40good example is if um is road rage right like if you're driving down the freeway and somebody cuts you off somebody who's neurotypical who is not experiencing emotion disregulation might still get angry right that they got cut off but then they they take take a second they take a deep breath they go okay well you know that that truck did have to get over maybe I wasn't you know leaving him a room or whatever they their their initial emotion softens a little bit or maybe it changes to a different emotion maybe now they're they're feeling empathy for this truck driver um whereas somebody with ADHD um will have trouble

12:12regulating that initial emotion so they'll just be they'll be just as angry they'll you know and they might take that deep breath but before they take that deep breath they've already you know laid on the horn and sped around them and flip them off right like by the time they even get a chance to regulate that initial emotion they've already impulsively acted on that emotion um so emotional impulsivity is a part of emotion disregulation but also just being able to let go and slow down and temper the initial emotion can be really hard so what that ends up feeling like for somebody with ADHD is emotions hit

12:46hard they hit fast we react with raw emotion a lot of the time and we have trouble getting back down to our Baseline you've just described my marriage uh my wife is going to love this interview actually you talk about a whole chapter you dedicate to Executive function in the brain what will you take a couple minutes to kind of level set how is an ADHD brain maybe working differently than a non-adhd brain and what is the role that executive function has and how is it impacted with an ADHD diagnosis oh boy I already did this work so I'm gonna I'm just pick up my book

13:22real quick page 77 page 77 you have I mean you dedicate a whole chapter wow look at you yeah yeah youed which is why I was interested because I think I mean everyone can learn from this especially parents right in terms of understanding the role that executive function plays in our relationships our decision making and how we lead people yeah I feel like listeners of this podcast will appreciate this so executive function is essentially a leader it's the CEO of the brain it's the part of your brain that's responsible for planning and prioritizing and sustaining effort toward long-term goals um it largely exists in the prefrontal cortex of the

13:57brain which is the last part of your brain to develop for most people that part of the brain develops by the age of 25 which is probably why that's when um you're you when you're allowed to rent a car for the first time um it's it's the stuff that we ass ass it's the stuff that we associate with adulting um and that part of the brain and that those executive functions are impacted by ADHD so there's there's different executive functions that make up our executive function as a whole but yeah it's this set set of top down cognitive processes that directs our brain to do the things

14:33that we want to do so that we can accomplish the things in life that we want to accomplish and that again is impaired by ADHD so you know we tend to struggle with things like set shifting and response inhibition um we have a we have a harder time uh with delayed gratification a lot of the time we often um yeah we're impulsive and we uh we motivated by different things a lot of the time people with ADHD are motivated uh by things that are urgent rather than things that are important um things that are stimulating so things that are new or novel things that are of personal

15:05interest those are the things that tend to motivate our brain um the things that are important in life often are long-term goals and we have trouble with that delayed gratification um and if our brains are not getting the stimulation that they need then we'll often find it in ways that are not super helpful so I know you're not a clinician or a neuroscientist uh although you have a tremendous amount of research done the book and great references and resources any advice you would give people that may have just resonated with what you just said around executive function but may not for whatever reason feel like they have ADHD want to take that formal

15:45step wanting a diagnosis want to self-medicate or medicate not self-medicate medicate are there any practices or tips or habits or insights you might share for someone who's feeling like they're executive function isn't managing their life how it should be yeah so the biggest thing is knowing that everybody's executive function is limited um we can only manage so much we can only juggle so much and that's true of anybody and somebody with adhc might struggle a little bit harder but it is true for everybody that at some point the demands on our executive function can overwhelm our ability to cope so one of the best things you can do for

16:25yourself is scale Back start saying no to some things be careful how many long-term projects you have on your plate at any given time because that requires a lot of management a lot of set shifting and things like that um if you delegate delegate entire areas of responsibility as opposed to individual tasks um there's a really really great system that my partner and I just started using called fair play there's a fantastic book on that and there's a card deck that goes with it where you figure out what areas of responsibility you want to take on within your relationship at home and you figure out which cards you're holding and which

16:59cards your partner is holding and you don't say like oh hey babe can you unload the dishwasher you say hey you're in charge of dishes right so you're you're offloading an entire area of responsibility which means that's less for you to have to manage if a CEO is trying to run 15 companies at the same time that's not going to go well for anybody right and so that's one of my top tips is get stuff off your plate if you're struggling to manage cut down on what you're having to manage Jessica let's talk about the different roles we play in life I'm going to I'm going to

17:29pitch you a series of statements and I want you to fill them in um if you are in a relationship married partnership spouse partner and you suspect your partner has ADHD but yet it's undiagnosed how best to deal with that oh gosh um this is such such a delicate question it it depends it really depends on how you think your partner might receive it but there's um a fabulous researcher Dr Ari tuckman who did a a book called ADHD after dark he wanted to know how ADHD impacted sex lives and what he found was that the single most important thing to improve somebody's sex life if they have ADHD is

18:13to treat the ADHD because there's an unfortunate Dynamic that can happen um there can because there's this un unfortunate Dynamic that can happen when you have undiagnosed ADHD in a relationship where the non ADHD partner or or the treated you know the diagnosed and treated ADHD partner can end up parenting the undiagnosed partner with ADHD and that's not a great situation for anybody parenting a partner kills passion it's not great for the relationship it breeds resentment on the part of the person who's parenting and it it makes the other person feel not respected incompetent like sometimes give up so it's a really really problematic Dynamic but it's one that happens all the time

18:54and so remembering that if your partner does have ad D but it's it's not you versus your partner um your partner struggles it's both of you up against those struggles ADHD is a neurodevelopmental condition it's really well researched at this point we know that there are specific challenges that go along with it and it's not weird that your partner is struggling given this diagnosis it would be weird if they weren't so what are you going to do about it I think that it's really important to support accommodate um treat ADHD and what you're aiming for is optimal treatment which may or may not in include medication but for a lot of

19:30people with ADHD it does you mentioned parenting in in the role of a relationship but talk about formal parenting in terms of you know someone like me and my wife my wife and I rather that are parenting three young boys that are 10 12 and 14 there's a lot going on there my friend uh what advice would you have for parents when it comes to watching for signs or maybe not overstepping and branding their kid as ADHD because we know the impact that labels can have on a child's self-esteem and their self-confidence what if advice would you give to parents who might be either either suspecting their child

20:03might be struggling with this or they have a they have a diagnosis and they're still having difficulty parenting I mean talk to professionals first so talk to their teachers teachers get to see a lot of different kids so for you it might seem normal that your 10-year-old is struggling with something especially if you yourself has ADHD ADHD is highly genetic so if you're like well this is normal this is normal kid stuff I struggled with this too at his age cool are the other kids in that class strugg that's something that you might want to ask the teacher because they they have a better insight into what's typical for

20:34that age range um if you are expecting a 5-year-old to sit through a college lecture and you're like well they're not paying attention at all of course they're not right a college lecture is not developmentally appropriate but there is a neurodevelopmental delay that happens with ADHD and so sometimes we're expecting a lot of a 10 or 12 year old with ADHD compared to what they are currently capable of doing um maybe they're they would succeed in a grade A couple of grades down in terms of the level of executive function that's expected of them but um but they're struggling here because they're expected to manage a lot more than they are

21:07currently able to so they you know they there's a lot of supports that you can put in place there organizational skills training is something that I wish I had personally had treatment you know medication but in terms of looking for signs yeah talk to their teachers talk to their doctor if it's if it's a concern if you're something if it's something you're you're worried about but what you said about labels I want to address that because that's something that a lot of parents are worried about right is this label what I don't want to label my kid but really what they're saying a lot of the time is I don't want

21:36my child to be limited and I will say this when I began to understand my ADHD and I learned how my brain works that did not limit me that empowered me because now I understood how to read the error codes in my own brain and I had strategies and tools when I did not have that I still got labels but the labels were not helpful the labels were messy and lazy and Spacey and stupid and just a lot of really really awful labels that people gave me to explain why I was doing the way you know why I was acting the way that I was acting like oh well

22:14she's just super messy messy Jessie right like I was still labeled your kid is still being labeled the key is to find the accurate labels that are going to be helpful for them so that they can work with their brain not against it what advice would you give to say an individual producer in a company who may be working for a leader and they suspect or feel that their leader has ADHD and maybe they do or they don't and they haven't disclosed it or it's untreated or it is being treated but not treating it effectively any advice you would give to a team member who thinks their boss

22:46has ADHD and it's causing conflict in their in their career and their relationship and their stature in the company and their productivity take that anywhere you'd like to go oh that's a really good question um I don't recommend being like hey you have ADHD to people like diagnosing other people is not generally a good practice um but what you could do is speak openly about it if it's something that you struggle with or something that you know about and you understand just talking about it a lot of the time is enough for people to start

23:26self-suspending of it like thought that there had to be an attention deficit right that's a that's a big one um parents will be like oh well my kid my kid can't have ADHD like he can sit and play video games for 8 hours like he could focus when he wants to right but it's not an attention deficit it's an attention regulation issue and so if I were to have a boss like that I might talk about how sometimes you know sometimes I'm able to focus really really well on something to the point where I'm in a really deep flow and you can barely pull me away and sometimes I

23:54am going to get distracted by everything so talking about ADHD a little bit more more um helps break down some of the myths and misconceptions and just by speaking about your own personal experience a lot of the time people resonate with that and that's I can't tell you how many people have been diagnosed with ADHD just because I went on a YouTube channel and started talking about ADHD and how it impacts me there were so many people going oh oh this sounds really familiar like this this this is a thing huh so let's talk about that you mentioned the YouTube channel obviously your book in the channel work kind of

24:28hand and glove will you give us some more insights around what people might expect if they were to go to the channel subscribe to I mean 1.7 million subscribers congratulations you have dedicated how many years to this channel eight years now eight years talk about a focus talk about disciplined attention riff a little bit on what's going on in the channel what do people expect to get why are you still at it take that wherever you'd like to go one of the reasons that I'm able to keep doing what I do after eight years is because projects are shortterm for the most part the book the book was

25:04tough I had to pull out pretty much every tool in my tool box to be able to get through a book but for the most part um when I started it was one video a week and I would get to learn something new every week and I would get to Google and I would get to uh put together what I what I'd learned and then put it out on the internet for everybody to see and I would get that immediate feedback immediate positive feedback is really really motivating for ADHD brains um um short-term projects can be really great anything urgent with a deadline that can be really really wonderful uh I don't

25:34remember the question at this point um sorry well so I was just asking you to talk about what would what would people experience on the YouTube channel what kind of content do you deliver why do people go visit it yeah so if if people go to the YouTube channel you can actually see from the beginning you can go watch the entire playlist from the beginning of every video that I've ever made if you really want to you can learn as I learned um and and I started knowing nothing really I everything that I learned of value about ADHD I learned and I put on the channel um so you can

26:07go back and watch the the really early cringy videos all the way through my more nuanced conversations now but I've got a few different types of videos on the channel of what I call my lecture Style videos which is I did a deep dive into understanding the science behind a struggle and a strategy that can help and um those videos are often animated um or have a lot of visual interest Quick Cuts things like that to kind of keep our attention and then I have deeper conversations um either with other experts or sometimes just on my own I will do a vlog Style video just talking about something that I learned

26:42or something that I found and one of the one of the ones that I'm more proud of is I I did a video talking about how my channel was kind of like ableist when I started I started out thinking it was just fundamentally better and this is how I was supposed to be right I was supposed to function like a neurotypical human I was supposed to have neurotypical goals and pursue them and it was okay that I had to work with my brain a little differently but I still had to be on time and have my car clean and my house organized and all these goals that were really passed on to me

27:16from this neurotypical Society um of this is how you're supposed to live and this is how you're supposed to be and I kept waiting to be this you know put together organized on time version of myself and then I would be successful and it turns out I ended up being successful before I got there it turns out you don't have to be people people do grow but they grow along their own growth lines and so you can kind of see my personal growth on this channel of learning to accept who I am and learning to accept my challenges and learning to accept that it's not just that I need

27:49different tools or to maybe do things differently but maybe my life is going to look a little bit different than I thought it quote unquote should and that's okay you also dedicate a whole chapter in the book about making ADHD harder what are some of the accelerants if you will if someone does have an ADHD diagnosis or they don't but they still you know possess a neurodiverse brain that's not working like a non-adhd brain what are some of that is are there foods are there environmental factors are there personalities are there stimulants that mean like light or sound or others are there any things that you might say

28:23gosh you know you might want to steer clear of these things whether you are diagnosed or you are UND diagnosed because they can act as an accelerant or an inhibitor or maybe like a force multiplier in a bad way if you will making your ADHD harder there yeah that that was really my intersectionality chapter it it's it's it's harder to have ADHD if you are also a woman of color because you are going to be judged on multiple fronts right and I hear from I hear from black women with ADHD all the time they they feel like they have to avoid um not only just being emotionally

29:00disregulated at work like anybody would but also there's this Trope of the angry black women that they have to avoid so they have to be extra good or work extra hard um so being being a woman being of color um being trans being um you know there's a lot of things that we didn't get to choose about ourselves that are going to make um our presentation more complicated or is going to make the judgments that Society levels against us a little harsher and we have to work extra hard at overcoming that um or H I don't even want to say overcoming because I don't think it's something

29:31that you can overcome but we have to we have to combat that a little bit harder we have to put more energy into it um but there are there are some things that that matter in terms of what would make ADHD easier or harder um that we do have some control over being in the right job is gamechanging having having a job that allows us to lean into our strengths and mitigate our challenges is really really critical in terms of how successful we're going to be um the same things that I'm really good at at my job now that make me successful I've gotten fired for at other jobs because

30:04apparently you're not supposed to be on the computer and Google everything that pops into your head at certain jobs but I did I'm a curious person and I love to learn and that benefits me now but it got me fired then so having the right job really makes a difference and even in the right job having an environment that is set up in a way to support you to support your brain um makes a big difference if I had my video game console in my office with me I would not be as productive um I try to tailor my environments to what it is I'm trying to

30:33accomplish and I try to set myself up for success I try to um I try to do things that will help me stay on task if it's something where I need to stay on task and and other times I know that I want to be creative so I might actually intentionally um put things in my environment that I can use to pull myself off task and let my brain wander a little bit and come up with more creative ideas so environmental factors are really huge in terms of um diet diet can have an impact it's it tends to be overblown um you are not I'm so sorry to

31:03say you are not going to cure your your kids ADHD or your ADHD by taking away their candy that's not it's not going to happen it doesn't work that way um and also eating a certain way can be really tough for people with edhd and I just want to elaborate on that for a second um there are a lot of a lot of strategies that can be helpful for somebody with ADHD that are really difficult to implement because of the executive function challenges is involved so yes like if I if my my diet was a certain way it might be good for my adhc but also being able to meal prep

31:37and go shopping and cook and do all these things that's actually really tough for me so I will do a lower lift version of that which is I try to make sure that I have protein with every meal um and I leave it at that but it's there there's there's so many little things that you can do that can make life with ADHD easier or harder but the the really big ones are surrounding yourself with people who understand um and who are supportive and learn about it learn how to work with your brain not against it and try to find the right job for you because the right job you will be wildly

32:09you might be wildly successful at the wrong job you might get fired on the first day that's happened to me too I have been fired on day one from some jobs so um yeah environmental factors make a really big difference I think that's actually refreshing advice because you're exactly right is when you are an adult whether you are in the right fit the right position the right company the right industry the right role the right culture under the Right leader I don't think we give ourselves enough latitude to realize this isn't right for me right A lot of people make career decisions based on need or

32:42necessity or guilt or debt or fear and especially for people who are are dealing with ADHD it's probably even more consequential to pick the right role have you researched or uncovered that there are certain types of roles or Industries I know it's a broad question that people with ADHD should either steer away from or perhaps even magnetize towards because they're just naturally better align with someone that has their style of neurodiversity if you will it's going to vary depending on a lot of things but what your personal interests are is going to have a huge part to do with it um but in general short-term projects um thing things

33:23where you have to be um you have to be kind of on point in the moment but planning and prioritizing and things like that um are not as much of a part of your job can be really good so a lot of people who are like ER doctors are fantastic or nurses um a lot of people like to have flexibility so that they can um they can work when they want to work when their brains are functional that day like we have good good brain days and bad brain days and so some people really like the the flexibility of U being able to work when it makes

33:54sense for them to work so um like gig and Industries can be really great um we tend to be really creative so creative Industries uh we often do well at um but I think I I think it's less about the exact role and more about um the goodness of fit with what are you doing on a day-to-day basis and is that something that you gravitate toward or away from because that gear grinding I don't like what I'm doing frankly neurotypical people can get past that if it's like well this this is good for my career this is going to be this is going to be good for my

34:30family they can get past that people with ADHD it's going to be absolutely disabling frankly like even if we can get through a day of that gear grinding I don't want to do this but I'm making myself it actually contributes to to more aversion and more procrastination in the long run because we learned that this is a horrible experience which makes it harder for us to drag ourselves back to our desk and get ourselves to do it again tomorrow Jessica mccab star of the YouTube channel how to a DHD an author of the book by the same name an Insider guide to working with your brain

35:04and not against it thanks for joining us today thank you so much these are great questions I appreciate your time I I can I can assure you that everybody that's listening and watching around the world has someone in their life that they're thinking about right now perhaps including themselves that they might choose to take a little more practive step towards understanding how to manage or unleash the the the the talent that you comes from having an ADHD brain and your your book how to ADHD and its podcast are two great tools appreciate having you on today thank you so much for having me and we'll see you back

35:39here next week for a new conversation on leadership [Music] [Applause] [Music]