Stop trying to go VIRAL. How to Build a TRUE fanbase with Kane Kallaway. | Sweat Equity Ep. 17

0:12Alex: Dope. Welcome to another episode of Sweat Equity. We are in Venice and the sun has came through. We were seeing the light. It was a rough three days. Hell yeah. You were, you almost didn't make it through. Yeah. I was like, dude, I think I'm, I'm going to die in Venice. Kane: It was looking dark in San Diego for

0:27Alex: pockets. He sent me a whole screenshot. I was just like, this is, this Brian: is looking rough. That's the longest time I've gone without seeing the sun for a minute. Alex: I feel like an entire different man walking the boardwalk today. Brian: Yeah, I think Zara was smiling actually a little more too.

0:39Look at her. Alex: She's crashed out. Yeah. But today we got Kane Sutter. Kane, you're becoming one of, I mean, I told you this when you and I spoke a few weeks ago, like you're becoming one of my favorite creators to watch and it's dope to have you here. I appreciate you driving from San Diego. But before we dive into it, give, give a little bit of

0:55background, how you went from. Deloitte to full time creator. Cause that's, that's a big switch up. Let's get that. Yeah, Kane: it's been a ride. So I kind of, I went to school and like, in college I always wanted to be entrepreneur. I wanted to start do something in business and I wasn't really sure exactly what do

1:11we start our first company at the end of. Our senior, my senior year, and that kind of gave me the startup bug, although it failed, failed big time. What was the company? So we, we say like micro, micro crowdsourcing recommendations, so it was called Talio. So the whole idea was like, when we were in college, I went to Miami of Ohio.

1:29It was like 40 minutes to the nearest mall. And so, in the winter, we wanted to ski. Half our house didn't know, didn't have ski clothes or know how to ski. So we drove to the mall, and we're at like, Dick's Sporting Goods or something, and we're looking between the jackets and the goggles, and we're able to like,

1:42narrow down between the brands that we recognize, like Burton, Oakley, whatever. But we didn't know which pieces to buy, and so we texted our friends in the group chat back at home. No one was answering, no one was answering. And that kind of like planted the seed of this idea of people make so many decisions every single day and they're able to kind of narrow down their choices, but

1:59ultimately you want like a recommendation from a relative expert to you. That could be like a guy who runs a ski shop or just like your friend who's good at skiing. And so we built an app that, this was before like Twitter polls, before any polling app, this was in 2015. We worked with a dev shop to build this app where You basically create these micro comparisons and then either send them, the idea was to get like community,

2:24community pools of experts and you could send them out and get rapid feedback. And then the whole idea was we would sell that data set back to the brand. So like how valuable would it be if we could go to Nike and say, Hey, at the point of decision, not the point of purchase, like at Dick's Sporting Goods, Nike gets all that data back of like, oh, they bought this many yellow shoes, but at the point of decision they chose Adidas over you

2:46in this region with this type of sku. For this reason, yeah, they're that kind of point of decision data doesn't exist. So we were like, that could be extremely valuable. Yeah, and this was way before like any of the polling stuff. We obviously went down that road, built a prototype. People were like, it was, it was good, but it was V1 janky. And at that time people were like we didn't get enough data or signal back on

3:06the concept and then the polls launched. I think looking back, it's clear that people didn't want like another. It's a social app, even back then, though it's even more crowded now, but we raised like a little bit of friends and family money to, to do that. And that whole experience like gave me the startup bug, failed

3:24obviously, but learned a ton. The assets were acquired back by the investors. So, you know, we didn't make any money, but it didn't come of it. No, I just think it was like an amazing experience at 21 to like go through the whole process of like, okay, here's an idea, build a deck, raise money, like, you know, try to interview these dev shops, work with

3:41them, try to figure out what product management is, build it, try to test it. At 21, that's a Alex: fucking, that's a thing to learn. That is, that is Kane: amazing to learn. It was a good little like batch experience and what that taught, I mean, it taught me a ton of things, but basically during that process, I had an offer to go to Deloitte

3:55Consulting like during senior year. Yeah. And so. Basically, I had like a hedge, which I, in hindsight, you don't really want to hedge. You kind of want to go all in. So at that time, like, as, as the thing wasn't working and we didn't even know what we're doing. We were 21. We'd never done it before, but as it wasn't working, we like, didn't

4:11push through that resistance. We kind of were like, Oh, well we could like go, my co founder went to Google and I went to Deloitte Consulting. So we were like, we had a backup plan. Yeah. So ended up going to Deloitte Consulting. I hated consulting immediately. Like first five minutes I was like, this is the dumbest thing.

4:26But I didn't know any better. Like I was kind of conditioned in, I grew up in Ohio. I was conditioned to like go that consultant banker route. So did that my whole strategy was like. Okay. I know I hate this. Let me try to stick it out for two years. I'm going to, I'm going to try to like work as little as I can to get by and

4:42spend all of the time and money on side projects to try to get something working. So that was my whole plan. So I tried a bunch of stuff. Like I was a rapper, tried to do the music thing for awhile. I tried to build a morning brew for wellness, so literally their playbook, but just for wellness. And then I saw Andrew Huber Man's podcast and I was like, this

4:59is, I honestly, I'm not winning. I'm not winning this. I'm not, I'm not a doctor . Yeah. Credentials could, were lacking a little bit. Yeah, exactly. I had a podcast where I interviewed founders and then this Web3 Wave, we tried to do like a clothing brand on Web3 Rails. So did a bunch of like different things. But the reason I say all these things is because I was basically, I think, I

5:18think business boils down to two things. So there's like what you make and then how you sell it. And it's really that simple. And so I was focused on the, what you make, but I had no audience or distribution any way to get signal back if it was even working. So even if I had the sickest clothes or like the best

5:31newsletters, I had no audience. So after like continual, continual attempts and kind of like low signal burnouts, I was kind of like, let me pause, zoom back and let's just go all in on building the audience first and like really learning how to sell and market. And then I can basically spend a decade building an audience and then

5:47a lifetime selling them products. And so that's a year ago I was like, all right, sick. I know nothing about video editing, but I kind of canvas the content options, chose short form video. And I was like, I'm just going to become sick at this. And that was a year ago. And so it's, I think like the first 20 videos were obviously trash.

6:04I had one that had like relative success, like a couple hundred thousand views. Which was all I needed as like a signal to be like, there's something here. And so I've now, I like fast forward to now for people listening who haven't seen me before. I've been doing short form kind of like three or four times a week.

6:19We just launched a podcast. I have a newsletter. So I'm kind of in that like expansion of the content universe. Yeah. No, Brian: I, I read your first blueprint about an hour ago, just like do some research on you. And you said in your 21st video, that was the first one to get a hundred K views.

6:32Yeah. In your 41st, that was the first one to get a million plus. Your hundred and twenty first was the first one to get five million and then it took a hundred and fifty five videos to get to ten million views. Yeah. Ten million plus views on a video. So, A lot of reps.

6:46That's the tough thing. That's a lot of reps. It's a lot of reps, dude. And you know, you also mentioned in, in the, newsletter that each one takes you two to four hours. Yeah, even more now. Yeah. You're a lot of hours deep by the time you're seeing that kind of signal. Alex: Yeah.

6:59And there's so many skills that go into those reps. It's not like shooting a free throw, right? Where you can get 500 reps in a day and it's just like, it's so simple. Yeah. There's there's the sound design. There's finding the, like doing transitions, the pacing, like there's so much that goes into one rep.

7:15Yeah. And then the second rep and whatnot, like the amount of hours going into that craft is absurd. Kane: Yeah. There's this thing I call the. I don't know if I wrote about it in that one, but it's basically like the gap between where your skills are today and like what your taste or vision wants it to be.

7:32And the broader that gap, the more frustrating it is to like make stuff. Cause you're like, ah, it's not where I want it to be. And the closer you get to closing that gap, the easier it will be to like achieve whatever you want. Yeah. And at the beginning, the gap is the widest and it sucks. Because you know it can be better, you're watching other people on social, not

7:49even jealous, but like as a benchmark of like what quality looks like. It was a tough, it was a tough time that first Alex: couple months. There's so much friction at that beginning when you're trying to learn so many new things at one time and trying to make them good. Until you get like that bit of momentum, you're like, okay,

8:03I'm kind of streamlining this. a bit, and I'm getting a little better every single day. And then that's when I feel like you have those, those inflection points where you get a video to Kane: pop off. Yeah. And some of it is luck too. Like, yeah, it's like, it's almost like the, the luck rewards

8:17the effort, but you don't, you can't predict the timing of that. So you just have to like stay in the game. Just keep, keep taking it. I always say like the best quality rep you can possibly take today. And then the goal is to iterate. So the next rep is like a little better, but it's hard to iterate after. a certain time because you don't know what to change, which is frustrating too, but so Brian: something I'd love for the audience, like, you know, you're someone who transitioned from a really massive corporation into full time as

8:43a creator, like Talk about when you thought you were ready to make that jump. And then maybe when you actually made the jump, like, was there a big Delta Kane: there? Yeah. So basically my, my time at Deloitte Consulting broke into like two phases. The first was like the pure strategy consulting, which I

8:58like the part that I hated. That was like two years. And at that time I was trying to make a jump. I tried to go to Google, Uber and like 2017. And that's, that's two years in, that was two years in. Yeah. And I didn't really have like, I didn't really have a skill set like in consulting. The skill set is like communication, PowerPoint building, like it's valuable,

9:16but it's kicking the can down the road. Yeah. Like if you're going to go to Uber and you're going to try to be like in marketing or in growth or in product, like you had to know either marketing growth or product or come in at a very entry level and they'll train you. I like wanted to come in above entry level, but I had no skills.

9:30So it's tough to leave. So what I was trying to figure out, like, what do I do? I don't have an idea to build. I don't know where to go. And I found like an internally incubated startup at Deloitte called Pixel, which basically like through like a little bit of a laissez faire attitude and also this rebellious nature, they were kind of operating like this

9:49little pocket that didn't have as much top down, you know, hierarchy. And through some like lucky bounces, I ended up like, like running that group when I was like 23, because whoever was running it, like went on maternity leave and then they never backfilled. So because of that, it was like, I was running my own little startup within and because, and I could grow faster, but also like spend my

10:09other time on these side attempts. And so in terms of like, when I was ready to leave, I kinda, I kinda had a sick setup. Like I was working like 15, 20 hours a week, making a good salary and trying to. Really like throwing myself at the wall on these other side things. But I re at some point it clicked like maybe three years into that, my learning

10:28plateaued and it just clicked it. Like if you, if you really want to go do something else, you have to go all in because the only way you'll force yourself to have the skills catch up is to like put yourself in the water and like think or swim. Yeah. So it was that. And then my wife went to business school. And when she came out, she went back to Deloitte and I was like, I kind of asked

10:46myself, like, what would it be like if I had a VC that was just paying my salary? And if I had that, I would just go, like, take a rip. And, I, effectively, that's what she became for me. So, She's your VC. Yeah, yeah. She's Brian: the VC. Yeah, she's the VC. That's my status,

11:02Kane: man. Exactly. So, it's not as though, it's not as though, you know, we're like luxury rich. But I was just like, if, Yeah. If I can, if I could get 5k a month draw from a VC without taking any of my like personal equity, what would that look like? I would go do whatever.

11:15And so I kind of like reframed and looked at it like that. It's kind Brian: of funny how many successful entrepreneurs, like the backbone of it is like the wife or husband with health insurance. Like the one that like kind of maintains that stability. Yeah. Kane: I mean, she's a rock. Like I, without her, like in the, in my life.

11:31Basically, she's like the operator of my life. And so it wouldn't clear up any, any brain space, like do anything else if I didn't have Alex: her. But I agree with you, you have to have your back against the wall to be able to go into something and just. Be successful at it and have to figure it out.

11:43Like I did it with marketing examine. I left collective, which is a great job. CMO there. And we had an agency called rare. Like that's how I know a lot of them. Say a lot of Kane: nobody, everybody laughs. Brian: Are we boring? Alex: Charles doesn't shit, but I left my job two weeks before Zara

12:02was born and it was like, we got to get this, we got to figure this out. Yeah. A month and a half later we hit record numbers like for, for marketing, examine growth, all, all those things. But. When your back's against the wall and you're like, I have no way to, like, I have to succeed.

12:15If not, like, I got to go back to the thing that I don't want to do. Yeah. You'll do incredible things. Kane: It's win or die. That's, that's the best thing about a corporate job you hate is that, you know, you have something to run from the, like people who start entrepreneurship when they're 21 and they have never worked a corporate job they hate. They can, they can be as driven as they personally can propel themselves, but there's, you run faster when there's a bear chasing you than when

12:37there's like gold at the rainbow. So I have a huge bear behind me of like, I'm not going back there. Like I know how bad it sucks. And so I actually think it's kind of beneficial to like work a shitty job for like six months just so you can have that fire always behind you.

12:50Alex: Yeah. The one thing I do like about certain jobs is you could use certain jobs as like stepping stones too. Who you want to be, or like, what do you want to learn with the hustle? Me being there, I got to learn from Sam Parr on how to build a media company. And that was just a stepping stone for me.

13:06That when I took the leap, the leap was a lot easier. I knew how to succeed there. I knew how to monetize. I knew how to grow the thing. The other jobs I wish I would have maybe done like a six month stint would have been either Facebook. Instagram, YouTube, something on the creator side where all these creators that are now kind of growing, one of my favorites is

13:23like John Yashua or something. Do you know who I'm talking about? Yeah, oh Kane: yeah, Yashay or whatever. Yeah, Yashay or something. He like interviews Alex: these big YouTubers. Yeah, but he was like at YouTube, he was at Instagram and knew how to just make great content. It's a hack. Yeah, dude. It was such a hack that he's like fast tracking his success by being at those

13:40Kane: companies. Yeah. My thinking is there's two reasons why you should have a job. One is if the person you work for, like your direct manager, you want to be like one day and you want to like get the sawdust off of them. Or two is if you're actually learning a hard skill that

13:53you would then want to apply. So like for you, you had both. You were learning from Sampar and you were learning a hard skill that you could apply. For me, I had neither. So like the skill I was learning, communication like broadly is very helpful, of course. But like after a certain point, you really need hard skills in this world.

14:08Like most people try to play. The only skill I had is how to play corporate politics. So I think that's if you're at a job and neither of those are true, you should either change your job right away or. Or look to leave, but if those are true, it can serve you, like it can be really helpful. Which Brian: I think is, you know, helpful advice for people that are

14:24dissatisfied with that lifestyle. But it is also, a lot of people just don't have that driving ambition to like control their life. If they're down for like a six figure salary, like 30 hours a week, and that's great. And that's perfect. Like that is really true. Like a hundred percent. I, a lot of those people are way happier than most of my entrepreneur friends.

14:42Yeah. Like the big entrepreneur, low key. Fucking Kane: sucks. It sucks. The biggest difference is just like how you're wired. Like, I can't do it that way. Yeah. I don't have a choice. Like I was just, my brain was just wired to like run. Like I just have to do it. But most people don't have that switch. And then they like see this type of content and they, they ask

14:58themselves like, but they feel bad. Like they're like, should I? It's like, no, if you, if you have the ability to chill and just. Just chill. It's Brian: very simple. Yeah. One thing that really stood out to me when I was reading up on you was like your attention to detail in your newsletters are like, your

15:11communication is very succinct. Like I want to talk about how you write your newsletter. Like do you, how many drafts does it take and how many revisions, like walk us through your process. Because every line fucking matters. Yeah. I think that's Kane: really important. It's just one, I just do it in one shot. Basically, like, my whole, my whole theory with the newsletter was, my, my take on advice is that I don't really listen to advice, I hate when people

15:34give advice because it lacks context. And like, context is everything. So like, if someone came in here and was like, You guys should do the podcast this way. I'm a 10 year vet. I did it this way. It's like, there's stuff you can learn from them for sure. But I want to know what they did at year one. Like I want, I want, instead of them telling me what to do, I just want to

15:50look into the window of them at that time. The problem is like platforms change, markets change. So even that is like not super relevant 10 years later. So my, my take was like with blueprint a, I think it's sick if you document the whole way, like, like really from the beginning, like I, I have,

16:07I started with like almost nothing in terms of the business and social. So I was like, that'll be sick 10 years from now when, when we've done something dope, it'll be sick to read those. Like my, my family and me, but two is like, when someone's, when someone catches me five years from now and they're like, Oh, I love this guy, whatever. I want them to be able to go back and look in the window in week 1 or week 10 or week 40 and be like, Damn, this dude was, like, this is how he thought

16:31through emotionally the rollercoaster. Like, I'm super vulnerable in these newsletters because I think then that person can read it and choose to pull what they want. But it's not me, like, telling them what to do. It's just me showing them what I did. And so, the way I write it is like, Throughout the week, I just have a note and anything that pops into my head, frameworks, ideas, experiments

16:49I ran, I'll just throw in the note. And then on Sundays, every Sunday I sit down, I go through the metrics of like how, how every video performed. And then I just look at the list and I was like, what are the most interesting things to me? Like three to five interesting things to me.

17:02And I just, I just flow. Like I don't, I don't, I don't think too much about it. I really don't edit it. Like once I write it, I read through it once for like spelling errors, but, and I just let it rip. Yeah. What is, Alex: so let's dive into that because I feel like you're giving away your secret

17:13sauce and people tell you not to do that. Yeah. I'm fine with that. Why do you think it's important doing that? And like, especially with, I guess for that entrepreneur, that's maybe two years behind you. Yeah. Wants to essentially follow Kane: your steps. Yeah. I want to, I want to give it all away.

17:24I want to open source the whole thing. Cause my, my, my thinking is that like the how is not. The how is not protectable. There's no moat around the how, like you can hold knowledge, but the thing that makes you unique, one of one is the sauce. It's like the intangible combination of your skills and

17:42interests and like the way you are. No one will ever be able to replicate that because everyone's unique. So my, my take is like, how do I build the most goodwill and trust with like people that I want to spend time with creators and entrepreneurs, just give it all away. And like, if there's a hundred people making videos, trying to make videos like me using the tactics, they won't have the unique combination and

18:02flavor or whatever that I put on it. So it'll be different anyway. Unless they start from within, they're not going to have the drive to withstand, like they're not going to have longevity. So like, I can give them the how, and they'll go down that path, and if it's led with inauthenticity, they'll just stop. Brian: Kind of reminds me of like when a founder will be like, Oh,

18:21I'll talk to you about my idea, but like you have to sign an NDA first. And I'm like, brother, I'm not stealing Kane: that shit. Exactly. Exactly. No one will steal any idea because the amount of The amount of pushing the ball uphill that it takes to go from idea to anything is so massive that even if you had the best idea in the world, if it's not implanted in someone's brain that

18:40they want to do it, they won't do it. I need to be better at Alex: that. I gatekeep. Kane: Yeah. I don't put it out there and I gatekeep because you're afraid that someone will run the playbook better than you or you're just like, your brain is just wired to be like, this is sick,

18:50Brian: I should protect it. I think people would love to see you build marketing and Alex: examine more in public. I think, like, people don't even know how we're trying to scale it, who we're going after. Like, we're going after Harvard Business Review, trying to do HBR and Complex, like, we do campaigns, right? Like, I think a lot of it goes back to what you're saying of I try to figure

19:07out what can we do that's one of one. Like even our newsletter, I don't know, again, if you read it, but it's for the visual learner. Kane: Yeah, yeah. I like how you put so many images and like cut up the data and Alex: stuff. It's not like an actual newsletter. It's really a ton of graphics with like sentences and bullet points between it. But it's for the visual

19:21Brian: learner. And let's talk like real quick about, okay, so like the pros and cons of you sharing that publicly. So let's just say one of your competitors, one of those other mid ass marketing newsletters. Yeah. Mid. No, I'm kidding. But if you're watching, yeah, no, it's you. You know who you are. But like, you know, all they do is offer you that primary sponsorship, charge like

19:44a certain CPM, cost 5000 impressions, and then give you a guarantee of clicks. 250 clicks. Most of them ghost clicks because a lot of newsletters don't actually have engaged followings. And yours is engaged. People reply to your newsletter, stuff like that. If you were actually Tweeting about these campaigns, I think, not only is it going to potentially get stolen by people that don't have the same affinity with their audience, I think you would in turn be giving prospects, like a basis of context

20:14that is going to help your salespeople. Kane: You're basically running a two sided play. One side is like, you want marketers. to read it and you're not charging them anything at this point, I don't know if you will, but right now you're charging them nothing and you're, you want like a one on one experience where you're the place where marketers go.

20:28So there's like that. The other side is like you want brands to pay to get in front of those marketers. So the pros of like running this strategy of like completely open sourcing, marketers aren't getting that anywhere else. So like you have a way better offer to give them when you write it. over here. The con is you are potentially negotiating against yourself

20:45if you open source the numbers. So like something that I do is I share my, my income in this little graph. And like, if I do one brand deal in a week and I write the like brand deals, 7k anyone can tell that that's 7k. And so that I almost negotiate against myself with other brands. So like I had a thought at one point where I was like, should I put this

21:03behind a paywall or should I like gate the income part just so I don't hurt myself? Not cause I don't want to share it with others. But then where I landed was just like, it's so unique and so one of one that the pros of the like entrepreneurs and creatives is who I'm writing it for. The pros of the entrepreneurs and creatives getting to see that in my thing

21:20where they don't see it anywhere else. I think will outweigh any con of any, like, like what, what person on the marketing team at some brand is going to go all the way down like the rabbit hole to my newsletter. That's not targeted at them. And like, and like really, they're not going to do that due diligence.

21:34No. So I just feel like it's that, but also let's say you put the playbook out there. The reason it works for you is because your team is sick at like building the land, like actually doing the work. So even if you, even if you told someone, Hey, yeah, exactly. The sauce, even if you told someone the playbook was, X, Y, Z.

21:50Yeah. If they can't execute against the playbook, they can try, but it's just a waste of time for them. So, and I guess Alex: that that's always been my fear, right? Like just it being replicated and if it come in a commodity instead of differentiation, Kane: but anyone who could come into Brian: results though, right?

22:02Like if, if they, if they do, that's fair. And that's the challenge with any business is like the offer can be good, but like longevity comes from actual performance, how the product does. And so. If you're driving more ROI with the same strategy, people are going to eventually know that and like understand Kane: it. I mean, that's fair. Anyone who could replicate it better than you, like from a tactical perspective, probably has either thought of doing it already or the, like the highest level idea form of that would be new to them, but they would probably come to that conclusion anyway, because once you do it, a brand

22:33is going to talk about that to others. Brian: So another point of view I've always had on that is like, if they're copying you, then what's their next move? Exactly. You're always going to be setting the pace anyway. Yeah. Like they're, they're not going to, they're not showing the original thinking that's required to stay ahead versus like, they're trying to always just

22:50Kane: catch up to you. Yeah. The world, the world's getting so noisy. Like I think I read someone average people consume a thousand pieces of content every single day. And so the only way to really cut through is. Like the lazy way to say it is to be one of one. But really what that means is like if you did a summary teardown of a brand that they could have done, maybe if you got there first, you're one of one, but really

23:12like they could do it better than you. But what they couldn't do better than you is talk about the custom packaging idea that you brought up and implemented first. Like that is really one of one. So if I'm following you for marketing guidance or marketing, you know, marketing frameworks, that's sick. Like that is, that's dope. I

23:27Alex: think the journey is the one of one too, right? Exactly. I don't talk about or a lot of you do a good job of it and you're doing it with the blueprint. But yeah, it's like the, the journey, well, how do you think about it then for a brand? Cause that's, that's a different, how a brand does the journey.

23:39Yeah. How does it, well, yeah, that, and how do they do something that's one of one versus one of many because in brands, it feels like it's just one of many, right? Like the, everything that you do on Facebook or Instagram or on, on meta, like in, on the ad platform, everything feels one of money. Any, have you put

23:54Kane: thought into that? So I was thinking about that on the way up here, actually. If you, if you go back to first principles, like what is unique at a brand, it's the products they sell potentially. But if there's like a bunch of the same product in the market and it's not, it's the people that work at that brand, that com, that unique

24:09combination of people is one of one. And I mean, it's probably, that's probably it, like philosophy could be copied, products could be copied. But if you think about the hustle, like. How if the hustle had a series of like behind the build or whatever, what would that have been? Really? It just would have been like the office, but with Tron, you

24:26Steph, like it's the people. Yeah. So what I think brands should do more is like, yes, the product is important, but I think you want to buy people to buy into a narrative. And the best way to sell narrative is like the people at the company, because most brands are successful, have sick people there.

24:41And they're just. It's like an asset that's really underutilized. Like they don't even, they don't talk about them. They don't show them on camera. So if you, if you had like a video person that was dedicated, you know, like barstool stool scenes, that's the best example. Cause like you watch stool scenes and yeah, like maybe there's a clip where like big cats holding up the Stella coffee in stool scenes, but it's not like a dedicated ad and you just see, it's like that, that kind of organic product

25:03placement you can deliver through this. storytelling of the people. I think people just like narrative driven content. I think you're Brian: hitting on something that a lot of people in our space probably don't appreciate, which is like, you can't just outsource everything to the cheapest option to get a minimum viable service done. Yeah, well said.

25:21A lot of the times, you know, I think Barstool is a great example. You bring them up, like out of their acquisition price by pen, like how much of that was just literally Dave Portnoy and part of my take, like probably 80%. I'd say, you know, and it's something that I've been stewing on for a long time with doing a segment on the pot about is like certain individuals can

25:46carry immense value to organizations. It's not like. Something that is, that's not a novel concept, but there's time and time again, examples of this, like Pat McAfee right now on ESPN, like he is like, ESPN cannot afford to lose him, like the way that their brand is going. And so he has so much leverage about it.

26:05And like. You know, that boils down all the way down to a company level where the hustle head staff, Alex Tron, like, those are incredibly talented folks. They had a lot of other people that, you know, can almost form like a little hustle mafia afterwards. And that's what made it a really successful business

26:22versus most people in our world. They're like. I have a marketing assistant that I have in, you know, Latin America or Southeast Asia for 1, 000 a month because I don't want to pay someone 4, 000. I am those people. I have an Kane: editor. And like That's an interesting idea of like, the, when you're overpaying

26:38for talent in person in the U. S., you're really hiring paid actors if you use them well. It's a future focused decision. You know what I mean? Like, investing in an office is a set. Investing in talent in person is, is like talent. Right. Because I think this is, this is a, this is a thing that I think most

26:52people think about the wrong way. Most brands. Everybody's trying to go viral. Everyone's trying to get the biggest reach top of funnel. But like, those aren't the people that buy the people that buy or the people that watch stool scenes four times a week, they'll buy anything you sell. And so the only reason people want to go viral is because they want to get more

27:09people to drop to the bottom to buy. So what you need is both, but like. No, no brand that I've seen except for like George, he is doing this well with like the behind the brand, even though he doesn't really lean into like his talent, it's mostly him, not like his, his team, but like brands should be,

27:25every brand should have a stool scenes. And then every brand should be trying to optimize for like millions. Top of funnel virality and the whole goal is to try to get as many of those to stool scenes so that they can buy Into the narrative the people the the vision and then they'll buy I think most people miss that bottom layer It's hard because the dopamine Alex: is just rarely at

27:42Kane: the bottom. Yeah. Well, those don't go viral. Yeah, that's the thing still seems like Alex: Yeah, no, I know it you just don't Kane: get that because like still scenes has like 14, 000 viewers Yeah, something bar still makes us 5 million. But what you'll miss 14, 000 are fans. Yeah, that's who buys Yeah, and if you're running a business you want people to buy Brian: actually would And, and this is just healthy pushback, but I

28:01actually think Barstool's business is probably, is it primarily advertising? Is it not? Well, advertising. Because wouldn't they then want to optimize for total impressions from their accounts, which is kind of more of a top of funnel viral Kane: thing? So on the advertising side, the way to get consistent, why it's probably just pure CPMs.

28:21I agree. But like, there's probably some affiliate base. They have, they sell a shit ton of t shirts, a lot of merch. They had subscriptions, they've experimented with like a bunch of things that would drop to the bottom. Yeah, I agree. Like you need both because if you just build the narrative based. You have a really small audience and you almost can't get escape velocity.

28:37If you just has the top of funnel, it's, it's actually, it's just a mirage. Like you have 5 million views every single day. But if you try to sell a t shirt, you'll sell 10 shirts. That's also a mirage. You need both. And most people can easily grapple with the top of funnel virality,

28:51but they're not doing the bottom. That's why I'm trying to do like this weekly blueprint video style vlog. We have the podcast because I want. When people are willing to dive down the rabbit hole, I want something down there. And if you have enough down there, they'll buy from like, cause I think about it

29:06in, I'm jumping all over the place. I'm a crackdown on this coffee, but you're good. I think about it in this idea of content minutes. So like, let's say it takes 60 content minutes to like red pill somebody that's 60 shorts, 61 minute shorts or one 60 minute podcast. Like it would take way more time for me to make 60 shorts, but I can get a lot of people in the funnel and like they'll sample my shorts with like one or two minutes here, but I need them to go to the more efficient way to get content

29:32minutes, which is podcast or whatever. So if you don't have both. Like, I started with just short form, top of funnel, that's all I had, and what I noticed is like, I was like, alright, I can go viral at will, I can get millions every single day, but like, it's gonna take me so long to get fandom, and I'm just starting, year in, I'm just starting to get people in the comments to be like, I love everything you put out, whatever, I wasn't getting that at all at the beginning, because I only had two content minutes deep with each

29:55of these So that it's, you need both. Brian: I also saw in one of your things in one of your newsletters, you were talking about how Ben Shapiro like stitched with you. Yeah, yeah. He didn't Kane: credit him at all. You extracted like no value out of that. I was, I was being, I was being a whiner on that, but I've, I've

30:10come around on, on the philosophy. Oh, go fuck Ben Shapiro for that. Yeah, that's wack as shit. Yeah, it's wack. It's wack. It's wack as shit. What sucks is that TikTok. Alex: No, it took more effort. to take you out than just leave you in. Kane: Yeah. For real. Which is the whack part.

30:22Did I link to it? Did you watch what he did? Like, did you watch his reaction video? No, Brian: I can't cause he's such a little prick. Kane: Yeah, yeah. It was so ridiculous that, like, so if you take it and react and you, it's like you watching it for 30 seconds and then you giving a take. I'm like, whatever, I would love for you to tag me if it doesn't,

30:37if it doesn't come to mind. Like, I use a bunch of source, people's other source stuff for my videos and I flash it and I don't credit them cause it would be too much work. Right. But what he did is, He took the video, downloaded it. It was, it was like a 70 second video. He just looked at it for 70 seconds with no reaction like

30:50this, didn't even look up. And then at the very end, he's like, Hmm. And that was it. It sounds fitting. That's amazing. That was the whole video. And the annoying thing is TikTok pays you 60 cents CPMs. So like my initial video got 5 million views. His, I think got two, but he made a few like a hundred

31:08dollars or a thousand bucks. Like to him, that's nothing, but still the principle of like, yeah, I feel like he owes you dinner or a bottle of wine. Yeah, exactly. I was whining about that, but for a while, but then I, I came around because well, Mr. Beast concept is like you want everybody to rip you because

31:22Then your face is everywhere and it creates the echo chamber. I agree with that, but when you're, when you're not known, it, that same effect doesn't come true, right? On TikTok, someone might see me on his platform, be like, I've seen that face before, but then they have no way to track it back.

31:35You know? At scale, it makes sense. Brian: Also like more frustrating than anything. It's like when you, when you kind of like can remember a jingle to a song, you're like, what the fuck am I supposed to Google? The, what I thought the lyrics were. Yeah. Like da, Kane: da, da, da, da. Yeah. Yeah. Like it

31:47Brian: doesn't work. Yeah. You're off by like. Just a ridiculous amount. Yeah. Kane: Yeah. Alex: Going back to the content minutes. I think about this all the time and it's why we're even here shooting YouTube content is because The average I think Instagram reel is the average watch time for Instagram reels is like 11 seconds or eight seconds.

32:03It's so short. Yeah. The average watch time duration of watch time for a YouTube video is like eight or nine minutes. Yeah. When you look at how many YouTube or how many IG reels you have to make to hit one video. That's EDX. Yeah, dude. It's like. I should just put all my eggs in this basket.

32:18Kane: The problem is it's harder to grow on YouTube at the beginning. So you have to be willing to endure. That's, that's like, I think it's getting Alex: more formulated, like, like that you can figure out how to go viral on, or have a larger reach on YouTube. Like somebody that's done a great job of this.

32:30Pat Walls from Star Story started at zero. Just talk to the right people. Brought him in there into his corner and figured out how to go viral. How to get hundreds Kane: of thousands of views. Yeah. There's so many things he did that I love. The first thing is he identified that when you're starting from scratch, I call it cult hopping, but basically taking somebody who has an existing

32:48audience, bringing them in as a guest. Like, that's not a, that's not a novel idea, but like he did that really well. Why are you here? Yeah, exactly. I'm going to repost this. No, no, dude. We're homies. Yeah, exactly. We'll be homies after this. Actually, contentment only takes one live pod and then you're like boys forever. So I feel like

33:04Brian: that's like the most true thing of all time. Yeah. Like everyone that comes on the pod, like afterwards is just. The, the homie. Yeah. Kane: A funny, funny thing about that. And then I'll go back to Pat Walls is, do you know the, the three dudes in New York, Hunter Weiss, Zach Pograb and Dylan, they had like that office.

33:19Yeah. So I would always, I was like DMing them, whatever, like everybody DMs them. And then one time I was in New York and like, yo, I'm going to pull up to the office. And we just hung out for like an hour. And now like anything, any of them do, I'm supporting them for life.

33:31Like I'm, I'm number one right there. And all we do is have one in person conversation. And so as someone who like lives remote, kind of like in my own little cave, I realize, like, you just can't replicate the in person. It's super real. Brian: We're, we're hosting a dinner tonight. Yeah. And like, we've got probably like 14, 15 brands coming.

33:47That's dope. And like, I sell services to brands, but I don't like sell sell. Like, I'm not like a pushy salesperson. Yeah. And something I like objectively know is that I have exchanged remote sales calls with these people. We've texted, they're like right at the finish line, but don't have that one thing to push them over.

34:03They're going to meet me. A little Wagyu. And first of all, I'm going to feed them some chicken parm. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's going to lead to ROI. Like, and I think people just really devalue, it sounds Kane: so, you know. That's the pasta revenue relationship Alex: right there. The best thing we did for marketing exam was get an office.

34:21Yeah. In person and build relationships with each other. Yeah. And to the point too, like we were talking about anybody that comes in and spends an hour with us, like they love us or they love everybody on the team. Yeah. And it got to the point where people were just showing up on Tuesdays and Thursdays to work.

34:35Cause they're just like, dude, I feel like I'm part of this squad. Like I'm doing my own thing. I'm in this corner, but I feel like I'm just part of this squad and it's Kane: beautiful. I think, I think you're more efficient from like a productivity minute by minute perspective remote, but you, you can't get people to root for you and you can't build the actual bond to like, if you want someone to go an extra two hours without you asking them to actually make it dope, you can't get that unless

34:55you're in person, like unless you were in person to build the relationship. Alex: There's a reason zoom even has offices. Yeah. True. Have you seen that, that meme? There's like, that's that's a great call. They have a huge building, purely Brian: nothing but offices. I'm really concerned about all the, like, you know, ar, spatial computing stuff.

35:09I mean, I know you guys got the Vision Pro and like Yeah. Like, I just, I think that's like drifting towards a really detached world. Yeah. And like, what does that do for not just necessarily like, you know, in interpersonal social interaction, but like at a macro level, like workplace productivity? Yeah. Like we, we gotta think about those

35:28Kane: things on a spectrum though. I would. So v1 is not not this but on a spectrum of like remote and in person the vr is closer to it will give you closer to in person because basically what is what is an in person interaction it's my brain registering that you're right there and i'm looking you in the eyes and like we're forming this connection zoom you don't have that because like most people on zoom are looking at themselves they're not really like even if they're looking in the camera they're not looking at someone's eyes yeah vr will get closer though because in vr you don't need

35:54to look at It's like a camera, you're looking at the person in the eyes, even though it's not their real eyes. So I feel like it can, when it's good, it will trick your brain. Which is exactly Brian: what Gen Z wants, right? Like the ability Kane: to like make eye contact without making eye contact.

36:04Yeah, exactly. It'll get closer. Brian: That's the most bullish vision, reason for the vision pros. It's going to like make it easy to fake being like competent. Yeah. Kane: Yeah. The one thing I want to say about Pat Walls before we move off is, so I'm on this crusade of like, Yeah. Yep. like quality content. And it's mostly just because I think there's too many people shipping stuff at 70 percent that are trying to hit this like arbitrary time volume schedule

36:30they set out, which the schedule is really helpful to build the habit. So if you're like, I can't get myself to commit to this, I'm going to go daily for a month to like build the habit. But after, after a while, like what I noticed for myself is I was shipping videos that were suboptimal just to hit this.

36:43Like I got to post every day that I created that artificial deadline. So what Pat walls did, which I think is sick and more people need to do is. He took away the deadline and he's just like, I'm going to make the dopest video. And he's gone weeks between videos, but when he drops one, it's sick.

36:56Yeah. And like, that's a 10 quality and it will cut through. Brian: That's, that's also what those guys at founders podcast too. Like David, is that David Senra? Yeah, but he, he posts on a schedule. I'm sorry. Not, not him. I think it's acquired FM acquired. Yeah. Those guys would go like months, weeks, like, and then their podcasts will drop.

37:15And it's like. Four hours and everyone just freaks out about it. And I think there is, that's the, that's the zigging when everyone's dagging right now is everyone's pumping out massive amounts of short form to like hopefully go viral off of like one out of every 25. Yeah. And they're Kane: like, no, we'll just, I just think it's the wrong strategy. Like if, if even if it's a hits driven business, what do

37:36you want to have more hits? Like, so the filler doesn't do anything. So like if spending two days instead of one. I think people's argument is like, they don't know what's going to be a hit. But, but I think if you have 10 attempts and you don't know what's going to be a hit, that's fine. But a lot of people are doing six out of 10, seven out of 10 effort

37:52to try to throw volume seven, seven out of 10 is never going viral. It's just not going to. Alex: At the beginning, would you put out the volume to essentially learn what are the common denominators before you're like. Okay, now I could just try Kane: hit after hit after hit after hit. At the beginning I would try, basically, the whole goal at any

38:07stage is make the best possible thing you can with your skills today. Yeah. Go up against that skill ceiling and then try to increase the ceiling slowly. So at the beginning you have no skill so it should be quicker to hit the ceiling. You should be able to put it out every single day at the beginning

38:19because you're like, I don't know. I don't know. Audio. All I know is like to cut this a little bit. Okay, perfect. Now I cut it. Now let's go up and up and up. But now like I'm up here with my skill ceiling. So like, could I drop a video that's five out of 10? Yes, but I know it won't do well because it's just, it's leaving

38:35storytelling to be desired, right? It's like, it's just a suboptimal rep. What's the biggest skill Alex: you're thinking in regards to shipping high quality content? Is it the storytelling? Is it the visuals? Is it, is it sound design? Like, what are you thinking is when I ship it, it needs to be Kane: It's a ladder, but storytelling is the first rung on the ladder to master. Cause I was actually thinking this earlier to, or like yesterday, really

38:54everything boils down to storytelling. It's like what you tell your partner, what you tell your friends, what you tell your boss in terms of like how you've done stuff, what you're telling in content. It's all just like, can you tell a good story, like an entertaining story or whatever the story is. So if you can be a good storyteller, like Oren's a great example of this. I would say his visuals are good, and his editing is good, but it's not 10 quality, but his storytelling is sick, and so he can go viral all the time with amazing story, so like, if you just master that, it'll work really

39:20well, then you want to ladder stuff on top of that, so the way I did it was, it's, Like to the point where my first 50 videos, I didn't even use a mic. I just yelled into the laptop mic because I wanted to prove to myself that I could go viral without good quality.

39:34So I just started with storytelling. And that was obviously stupid, like I should have used it. I should have used the fucking mic. Why are you shipping 5 out of 10 audio? Brian: Yeah, that was super lazy. That clip's gonna go viral and everyone's gonna be just shouting at their fucking laptop. Kane: Yeah, that was super lazy. Yeah, that was super lazy of me to be honest, but I started with storytelling

39:52and then the next thing was Okay. I want the, the pacing to be dialed. Then after the pacing, I was like, I want the audio to be crisp. And then after that it was like, I want the visuals to uplevel. And I'm still like, I'm only a year in like Yeah. I always think to myself like, imagine what's gonna happen when

40:06I'm actually good at this shit. Yeah. Like, I, like, I haven't really even learned. Alex: Yeah. What's your storytelling structure like? I, 'cause you're, you're really good at it. I mean, you, with your. For example, your Stanley video is phenomenal. What is, how are you structuring these stories? Kane: So the thing is, like, at first I tried to come up with

40:20like, what are some frameworks that I could distill out of this? But a lot of it is second nature, which is frustrating to people who are listening. There's a rough, like, because they're gonna be like, yeah, that's not helpful at all. I'm just nice. Yeah. I would say, I would say the, the rough strategy is like, It's what the, it's

40:37what the South Park guys say, right? Like two, the two main lessons that they delivered. One is you want, if someone only heard line one, will they want to go to line two and just down the whole way? So that's, that cuts all the fluff. And then the other thing I said is basically you want to use but, and therefore like head fakes, because if everything is like, I

40:57did this and then this, and then this, it just gets monotonous. But if you're like, I did this, but then this thing happened. And then, so then I did this, but then, and you keep going back and forth. So it's really like, it boils down to those two lessons. And if you do it enough times, those become second nature and

41:10you can like pattern match. So for the Stanley video, like the Stanley video, I think it started with something like something crazy is happening with Stanley cups because I think a lot of people, and I'm, I experiment with different strategies. And so not all my videos go viral cause I'm like testing shit out, but yeah, basically like you want to tell people right away what the

41:28video is about in the first line. And then the whole thing, it becomes a dance of like, How to get them to, how to get them to want to go through all the way. And how do you head fake them on something they weren't expecting? What do you, what's your Brian: strategy for coming up with a good hook?

41:43Kane: It's basically like, it sucks. I'm trying to give tactical advice, but a lot of it is like when you're writing a, when I was writing a rap song. Basically what I would do is I'd put a beat on, and I'd loop the first little bit of the beat, like the little interlude before the beat drops, and I would just loop it over and over, and whatever, whatever first line came out, whatever, wherever my brain went, is what I'd run with, because I, I feel like most of video is audio, and most of audio is subconscious through the brain, like you just want it to sound good, and so, with hooks, I'm not thinking

42:11about like what I say, I'm more thinking about like, is it punchy, is it, is the intonation in my voice like, compelling. Am I asking a question? Like I try to make it really tight. I can totally Brian: see how you were able to skate by at like Deloitte on like 10 hours a week.

42:26Yeah, just like bullshitting. You just have no idea what's going on and just come off the dome in there better than like 90 percent of those Kane: consultants. That's, that's my favorite. There's also like visual hooks too. So there's a combination of like what you say, how you say it, and then there's like visual. So something I've been testing is This idea of the first scene is you're looking down and there's a huge visual at the bottom and the visual that

42:46you show is something like shocking. So this video about the AI girlfriends, I saw that thing on Twitter. It's basically someone from Pixar left and made like a Pixar version of like this redhead chick with like huge boobs and it was just like super low cut shirt and I was like, I know that's going viral. So instead of being like, AI girlfriends are going to be a thing,

43:04I used the picture to sell it. So I was just like. Damn, we're fucked. And I just had the picture. You can literally see, like, So, like, I did that where I looked down and I just knew that that's way more compelling. Like, a picture's worth a thousand words, right? So, that's way more compelling.

43:16But sometimes I'll do stuff like that. But I think a fun exercise would be just come up with a story, right? Or come up with a video idea right now or like a brand right now and I'll tell you, like, off the dome, like, what a couple hooks that I'd come up with would be.

43:28And I'd workshop it, though. Like, after I write one down, it's like, how does that sound? And I keep kind of going. How many would Brian: you say that you go through? Like how many iterations of a hook Kane: usually to write a script? It takes me like, it could be from 20 to 40 minutes depending on how

43:42like in depth I'm trying to go. And I, the way I rap is the way I write the script. So like I'll write the first line and then I'll write the second line. I'll read one and two. Then I write the third line. I read one, two, three, and I continue to read it over and over because I want the

43:54pocket of my words to like be soothing. Yeah. Alex: So how are you thinking about it? Like let's brainstorm a video for the Apple vision pro. Yeah. And let's say, let's take how to integrate it into, into business, right? Into Kane: monetizing or something. So I had a video on this and it was trash.

44:09And the hook was trash. And I, I, I don't know why I put this thing out, but I was like, The Apple vision pro. And then I said, that was a waste, right? Cause that, that first little line is telling you nothing. I wanted to, I thought if I just signaled Apple vision pro, people

44:20would watch it back off the social. It's Brian: almost like they've seen too much Apple vision pro content. So that's, that's exactly a perfect illustration of the point we've been trying to make over this podcast is like the sauce is what matters. Exactly. And so if you're just doing some sort of dog whistle about the Apple vision pro. It's not going to really resonate unless you, and if you say something hella

44:40contrarian, like, you know, the Apple vision pro is going to ruin everything. Yeah, Kane: exactly. So a hook, I made that. And then as I was editing, I was like, damn it, this is not going to work. And I was just too lazy to go back and refilm. So I was like, let me just try to like ship it with it.

44:53It didn't work. So the hook I would use to something like, In a business context, I would say like, like, nobody's going to go to work ever again. Or or like the Apple vision, like the abolition pro is going to change work forever. It's kind of soft, but like, that's like a core idea.

45:08So you're like, okay, how could it change work? What could I say? That's like super provocative. I try not to like, there's some people that make videos go viral by like, Mispronouncing words on purpose and stuff. Yeah. I try not to do that mostly because I don't even try. I mispronounce everything. Yeah. Well, if it's an accident, it's fine.

45:24But like, would a famous author purposely miswrite something? Like, no. Brian: Yeah, it's like a cheap trick. Yeah. So another thing to think about is, you know, I think Apple Vision Pro is, I mean, could this be more, you know, like spread across the entire culture right now? It's extremely difficult to come up with a new take about it as well.

45:47So, you're definitely piggybacking on something that's really well known. Like, you're gonna have to really find some novelty in the video you're trying to make Kane: about it to stand out. My take was, I'm returning it. So, in the video, I should have started with, I'm returning the Apple Vision Pro. I buried that.

46:02Yeah. Six senses. That would have been phenomenal Alex: though. Brian: Falling on either side of that debate though, because that's kind of like what I, at least what I saw on social was you had Casey Neistat was like, this is the most game changing, you know, all the way on the supportive side. And then there's, you know, Andrew Wilkinson comes out and he's like, I don't think the form factor is going to work because you know, it leaves

46:26like an, a red impression on like everyone was taking a stance on it. Exactly. And I truly think. You know, those people already have massive audiences. So people are kind of going to them for the take. Yeah. But to stand out, could you be like, you know, someone said they thought the quest was going to destroy the Apple Vision

46:44Kane: Pro. Yeah. So that's a good, that's a Brian: good take. Yeah. Or being like, you know, sure everyone's talking about the Apple Vision Pro, but we're not talking about Magic Leap from Qualcomm. This is the thing that people are going to actually Kane: wear. Yeah. And that would probably work. Like my video, I was kind of like, In my head, I thought, okay, the whole

46:59point is I'm going to return it. I'm going to build the video up where I'm like, it's amazing. It's the best thing ever. And then I'm going to hit with a head fake, like, but I'm returning it, which is how I did it. But short form is too, it's too quick, too short attention.

47:09I should have led with, which is what I did on YouTube. That actually worked. Like I'm returning the Apple vision pro and then go into it. That's a good example where it's like, I think I can go viral most times that I want, if the story's right, but that I should have been able to and didn't like I, not every rep is good, but that's, I spent eight hours making that video or whatever it was, stayed up like late trying to

47:27make it 'cause I was just on a wave. You gotta put the rep, you gotta put the shitty reps in to get the good reps and that's just, there's just no way around it. Alex: Are you gonna do, are you gonna go into long form content outside of the podcast? Yeah. I know you just kind of started dabbling in it, but yeah, thinking of really in that content in minutes and how much you get somebody to, to go down that

47:45funnel and consume and essentially like. Treat your content like a TV show. Are you going to go down that rabbit hole or scale that operation? Kane: I am. Yeah. So basically there's, there's three types. I was like four, there's three types of, of YouTube videos. I'm going to make the pot is one, which is great.

47:59Cause it's just like you talk. The problem is those aren't designed for retention unless someone likes it already. They'll discover it, but like, usually the pod, people don't put their best stuff at the beginning. It's kind of just like the free form conversation, so that's just gonna grow super slow, but that's okay. The other two types, I'm gonna try to do a weekly vlog, which is Blueprint and me kind of like, basically my thinking is, anytime I come up with something that would go in Blueprint, I'm just gonna raw riff it into the camera and stitch

48:26together those clips over the week. And then when I go to write it on Sunday, I will have already thought through it and can like get through the writing quicker. So I don't know how, I don't know what format I'm going to present those in. Cause if you think, if you imagine a vlog, it's like, that's not somebody really

48:37talking into the camera about something. It's kind of like there's gotta be like some Brian: sort of blend of Kane: education. Yeah. So I gotta, I gotta learn. I gotta learn how to do that. So that's the second type. The third type is I'm trying to make like actually high quality. like 10 minute YouTube videos. And I'm between either taking a concept from blueprint and really breaking it down or picking like a cult brand that does something crazy, like a short I would make, but extending the short with like more analysis

49:02and I have an editor for those. So like that's, but these are, there's a whole new skill, right? So it's always a balance of like, I have short form working. I know the formula. I know it generates a ton of top line, but it's actually not generating a lot of content minutes, a lot of fandom.

49:17So it's like, how much do I ease off the gas on that to then divert my time? You've got to give. Yeah. How are Brian: you viewing like long term monetization on those things too? Cause I think you made a really good point earlier. Like a brand, a brand deal will come in for seven K and your number on blueprint

49:31will be, you know, 7, 700 versus on a week that you don't have a brand deal. It's only 700. Yeah. And it's like, that's a lot of. Time and effort to invest when CPMs aren't necessarily going to pay the Kane: bills. Yeah, this, this is a, this is a great, a great like thread and I'm open.

49:45I'm open. For sure. And I Brian: think it's important to be open about it because a lot of people feel like they want to scratch their content itch and they don't understand the actual like numbers behind what's going on. Kane: My vision is I've always wanted to become like Ronnie Feig or George Heaton. So like, I want to build a lifestyle brand around a movement that I like

50:04genuinely fuck with and the people that buy into it are people like me. So like entrepreneurs and creatives, that's always been my, my like vision. And I knew that I'm not like a fashion guy. Like, I don't, I don't know how to physically make products today. So to start there with no content would just be like what I was doing.

50:19So I was like, let me just start with the audience. Now what's happening though. And why, I don't know if you've read like some of the later blueprints, but I've definitely been like stressed and anxious in the upper section. When I talk about emotionally, like where I'm feeling and the reason why is this idea I call identity dissonance. So like, I want to be this, but I'm naturally drifting this and naturally drifting towards like people are coming to me for like content strategy and like becoming like an expert in content, which is not what you

50:46would see a George Heaton doing. Like this dude's just on a vibe and like he makes sick clothes. This is completely different. And, and as I was branching differently, I was like, shit, should I retrace my steps and like try to force this path or should I just ride the heat and see what happens?

51:00So my whole vision now is like. Anything that touch, anything that would be B to C that touches a consumer, I don't want to charge a consumer anything. So I'm not going to gate a single piece of knowledge. So like every video is going to be free. Every newsletter is going to be free. I'm not going to make a paid course that goes to consumers because I

51:18want, I want the widest possible. Aperture at the top, and I want people to trust me. So like, when you think of me, I want you to be like, that dude's dope, and everything he gives me is free. He gives all the sauce for free. Almost nobody's doing that today. Then I'll monetize with, on the B2B side.

51:32So like, basically what you guys are doing is the same thing. You don't charge someone to read the newsletter. You charge a brand to put a placement in. And I'm completely fine charging brands anything. So if I make a course on short form video, it's gonna be 2, 000 bucks instead of 400. I'm selling it directly to brands to teach their marketers how to do it.

51:46Not a creator like me who can't afford 400. So that's how I'm thinking of it now is like, I'm just going to build the engine for free for consumers. And, you know, like I get a lot of brand reach outs to try to do sponsored videos. So I'll do that. But anything that a brand would pay for, I'll, I'll, I'll be open to.

52:03And at some point I need to, I need to world build this. And so like, I'm right now, I'm trying to build my, or make my own clothes to like, wear my own videos as like a sample. And so I'm just going to take it real slow. And I think like I, I true, the reality is like, there is no end that's people

52:21think that life is like trying to reach a peak and then you're going to coast. The reality is if you are wired to reach that peak, you'll never be able to turn off the coast back down. So the graph of life is just like this forever and the whole, in terms of like what you're doing and the whole purpose is like, you want to enjoy yourself

52:37along the way and like take fruits of the labor along the way, but like. I'm trying to play this game for 50 years. I Alex: think Kane: the peak just keeps going up and up and up. There is no plateau. It's just like this. You do something incredible Alex: and it's like, well I want to do something more incredible. What is the next layer of

52:50Kane: this? And if you look at that, it's like, okay, if I'm 30 now, I want to play this game until I can't think straight anymore. And so if that's the case, and like it truly is. I could spend a decade giving shit away for free, and as long as like, I can pay the bills, break even on the bill, there will be a

53:04time where, like, the checks come. How do you Brian: How do you manage shiny object syndrome? Cause you're doing a lot of Kane: shit. It's pretty tough, honestly. I didn't have a problem at the beginning when I had no skills, cause I was like, the only thing I can do is learn how to do this.

53:17But now that I'm a little bit better, I get all these opportunities. People are coming like, should we co build an agency, or like random shit like that. Yeah. I think. It's tough. Like, I, I, I would say I haven't been perfect with focus and I've, I've dabbled because I'm, the way my brain, I just love different projects and I

53:34love that idea of like, come to the office and try five different things. Bunch of tinker, dude. It's so sick to do that. I think the way I'm focusing on it now is just like, in the season I'm in, if it doesn't get me better at content, Or help me world build long term.

53:49So like, like maybe there's one project that's not content related. So like right now it's the clothing. I'm trying to figure out, have the production team like trying to figure that out. But that's it. Like everything else has to be content focused. So if I want to launch a new YouTube series, perfect, that's content.

54:02If I want to make a new newsletter, that's content. But I have to be like, just relentlessly focused for this season. And I don't know how long this season is, but. Brian: Why are you creating on Snapchat? Kane: I was testing on Snapchat, but basically, anytime you hear something from multiple people, my gut reaction before was like, just

54:23ignore if it doesn't fit my narrative. But actually where the gold is, is when you hear something from people you trust multiple different places, and then you're like, Oh shit, I should dive deep into that. So I heard like, People were printing. I heard this statement of like all the influencers that we know are only

54:36making money from snapchat Then I heard again, like snapchats printing money. Then I heard again, like there's so much money in snapchat Yeah, I'm hearing it. So I was like, okay instead of resisting because I don't like snapchat Let me lean in and so what I learned was shocking that that's a good for the intro what I learned was shocking is that Snapchat pays like 50 percent

54:54revenue splits on the ads they run. So the way Snapchat works is there's two types of ways you can monetize. One is just by posting like store daily stories, but you have to have 100, 000 followers on Snapchat to get invited to do that. Most people have to take forever. The other way is you can have a Snapchat show, which is really interesting in

55:12that Snapchat, the way YouTube is open. Anyone could create a YouTube channel. Snapchat is closed. So the only way to make a show is to get. This like snapchat publish like some snapchat publisher to approve your show and it's all this like backdoor bullshit Like you have to know somebody and so what these publishers have done which is so smart They did this under the radar. No one knew is they rolled up They went to creators who didn't have shows and they were like, hey your contents good We have the ability to get you a show Do you want to show if you have a show and you get this many views

55:41the revenue split will take like a fee Whatever And it just shits money. And so, I found some guy that went to my college, reached out, same exact way. He's like, do you want to show? I was like, okay. So, we're experimenting with it. I was doing that for like three months. And, it was starting to grow. But, he kept telling me like, the only, the only narratives

56:01that work best on Snapchat are like, pop culture trend bullshit. Like pop, yeah. So, and I, and I was like, okay, whatever. I guess it's just the script. I'll do like five in one day and batch it. But what I was realizing over time, and this goes back to the focus thing, is like, I'm trying to be this level of quality.

56:16The Snapchat was this. Every second I was spending away from this was just wasting time. So I was like, yes, maybe Snapchat could pay me a couple grand a month if I'm doing this. But like, it's just a distraction. It really is. So I kind of paused that for now. How long do you try it for?

56:29So I tried it for a few months. But like the leading indicator, the lagging indicator is the result of it working. The leading is like. How I feel doing it and how my time is split. So I just kept feeling like, Oh, this is such a nuisance to do. And like, whenever that's in your head, you should stop doing that. Alex: So you're doing a bunch of Snapchat like, I want to be doing more

56:45Instagram, more YouTube, et cetera. Yeah, Kane: because he kept texting me like, Yo, when are the next videos coming for Snapchat? And I would keep pushing it off on my list. And I was like, Oh, I'll batch it. And then I tried to batch it and it drained me. And then I couldn't get an Instagram video out that day

56:55because I like wasted my juice. And I was like, it's just not Procrastination is such a good Alex: indicator for what you should be doing and what you should not be Kane: doing. Yeah. And that's why I like long form. Exactly. Fuck. That's why long form YouTube I've waited on because I hate editing long form YouTube. It's just

57:11Brian: so tiresome. I would be such a break from your existing workflow. Yeah. But I love Alex: the storytelling in long form YouTube. That's why I'm so drawn to it. Like, I think it's so Kane: great. I try, basically like, anything that you like doing, you want to find a way to get those, get that format to work for you. So I love these like, off the dome conversations, so that's why I'm

57:30like, live streaming could work. Cause that's basically just off the dome. YouTube is not off the dome, it's like fully scripted. for like many, many hours behind the computer editing. That's, I don't like that. That's fair. Alex: Well, dude, we are wrapped up on an hour. One, I appreciate you coming out. I know it was again, a long drive to come out here.

57:48Yeah. This was awesome. I know you're going to be in Austin for South by it. We're going to run it back. We got to run it back in our vision pros. Let's do it. Yeah. Plug yourself, plug the newsletter, everything you're doing. Yeah. Let them Kane: know where you're at. Perfect. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

58:00The best way I think my best thinking is in the newsletter. And so it's called blueprint right now. The URL is www dot espresso letter. So like, yes, E E S P R E S S O letter. com. It makes no sense why it's called espresso letter. I get that. I'm going to change this JZ own blueprint or what?

58:16No, like I, it would, my newsletter was originally called espresso. Yeah. It was, it was kind of like web three and other topics. And then blueprint was a series, but then I just wanted to only do that. That's blueprint. We have a podcast called weekends. Weekends with no vowels, WKNDS. You can get that on YouTube, but to be honest, everything that I make

58:33is just under the Callaway, Kane Callaway, with two K's is what I go by. So, appreciate you guys having Alex: me. Of course, man. And for any of you if you want us to, to film a free game segment on the pod, where you give us your brand. And we essentially tell you how to grow it.

58:47Remember to email us at pod at markingsamad. com. Like, subscribe. We got to say, we hate saying it. You hate hearing it, but we got to do it. It's just part of the part of the game. And then you can find me Alex Garcia underscore ATX Brian: and yeah, add Brian underscore bloom on all platforms. Alex: So

59:02Kane: we'll run it back in March. Thank you.