FBI Negotiator REVEALS How To Win ANY Negotiation & Argument | Chris Voss & Lewis Howes

0:00the assertive type of negotiator it's really more important to them that they felt that they conducted themselves respectively that you respected them and that you knew what they were coming from one thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is so how do you deal in negotiation with the kind of person who has to win who has to get everything they want they're very controlling Alpha right and it's their way or no way we're getting everything they want is actually third on their list first of all being control is number one on their list and that's emotionally satisfying the second thing is the alpha

0:37type which is uh we refer to that as the assertive the one thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected and making sure that you know everything about what they're coming from so and it's a classic guy who's working for his boss and said you know what my boss didn't do what I wanted him to do but he heard me out or she heard me out I can live with the direction we're going as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion and so that the assertive type of negotiator it's really more important to them that they felt felt that they

1:16conducted themselves respectedly respectably that you respected them and that you knew what they were coming from and once they know those things they'll actually soften up on what they want if they feel disrespected they'll probably be more frustrated and angry and right demanding right right right right so you guys was very demanding what they're really saying to you sub subtly is I want you to know how important this is to me right I want you to help important I am so how do you meet that person just come to them with respect or with yeah you know you could say look you're you're impressive you're phenomenal you thought it's all

1:53out this is very yeah I mean clearly you know where you're coming from you know what you want um I'm lucky to be talking to you at all right I mean if we're at a sit down with Donald Trump I would in fact be lucky to be in the same room with him that'd be the first thing I'd say to him I'd say you're an American icon right you know you're the symbol of American Business certainly in New York City yeah you know stroking her ego it's not a bad thing one of the one and you know it's a version of empathy because that's how they see themselves

2:27and you know the the the emotional recognition like emotional currency is not going to solve every deal I just don't want to try to solve any deal with money when I could have solved it with emotional currency I'm saving my money with emotional empathy currency intelligence right right my money's too important to me to waste it when I could buy something with satisfaction um I'm enormously tight with my thoughts and so many people or especially men in business deals I feel like there's a lot of alpha men who are trying to get what they want and so somehow they'll they'll lose money because they're not able to

3:07have empathy or they're not able to whatever they're not able to drop their ego yeah a lot a lot of a lot of money is left on the pay on the on the table over stuff like that or what they value themselves at like prices of most price is the most emotional term in a negotiation because you value yourself based on price but if I can get you to Value yourself in another way put you on a magazine cover I mean instruct the E going some other way it used to be you get Donald Trump in any magazine you wanted to if you put him on a cover

3:39you know imagine the amount of time and that used to be his deal if you want to do an article on Donald Trump the deal was he made the cover and and then he would knock himself out for the people doing the Articles oh yeah on access anything answering questions imagine how valuable his time was they got it covered to the magazine anyway I gotta put somebody on it right you know now they're trading something it costs them nothing right and he's giving them Dynamic interviews and he's promoting them hard and he's sharing with everyone and he's framing it everywhere and yeah interesting yeah so you you know you're

4:14buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition uh so what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator in your field and also how do those translate into the business and relationship world just in general outside of we'll let the other side go first um you know most people have are so so they're they're burning with their argument here's why you should make this deal and they've got that memorized and and that they're not going to listen to a word you say till they get it out so trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic right because they're rehearsing their speech in their head

4:52and their logic and so they they just you just can't get through to them so you let them go you let him go first and um another guy Ned colletti uh former GM of the Dodgers a friend of mine here at Town phenomenal negotiator he's lectured at uh in my class at USC also you know and that always likes to let the other side go first you know he did the Barry Bonds deal he's done a ton of deals across the board and Ned says well you know in a two-hour phone call there's going to be 90 seconds of solid gold where my the person I'm talking to

5:29based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used I mean he's got an instinct for it he couldn't he couldn't identify he's just already said it's 90 seconds to saw gold and I'd say what is that right and we we talk it through and he says well yeah it's going to be a change in a tone of voice it's going to be a different kind of adjective so Ned wants you to go first because he wants to know what's going to take to make the deal what they want right yeah what they're burning for or how they characterize what they have and what

5:57they're not saying too maybe exactly right what someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said which is why I give it a little if thought in advance all right what they're gonna what are they going to say if they if they've got this so I I actually like to look for more of what they haven't said what's glaringly missing and that's going to take I'm going to need you to walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out of me okay okay um who are the most difficult people to work with then would you say it's the

6:30alpha people or you say it's the uncertain people or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with you know you're talking about a little bit of a tight match and that hasn't has a tendency it's a little bit based on how bad I want to make the deal like I don't like liars um or I don't like the most difficult people to work with in the long run are people who haven't thought anything through which is as bad as a liar only their heart's not in the wrong place they don't know what they want right specifically or they don't know how how they're gonna they don't know how

7:00they're going to get this done which is again we go over and over again I go over and over again yes there's nothing without how like in the person who thinks like yes is going to make a deal well yes it's not going to make a deal because you got to have how how are we going to put this together and someone that doesn't think things true a lot of times they're actually kind of dysfunctional on their own side so they'll make promises they can't keep and they have no idea they can't keep those promises right and so when they take your deal you think you've done a

7:30deal with them they take it back to their company they're coming I was like no we're not doing this it's a stupid idea we can't do this sure and that happens a lot I think in a private sector I've heard from a number of companies that fully fifty percent of the deals that they make that don't go through get killed internally because somebody cut a deal for them and they took it back to the company the company says no that that violates our terms and conditions right we can't deliver on that basis so you're dealing with someone who just has no uh doesn't have Clues to what's

8:00going on on their side sure a lot of people like that when you're making a business deal what do you recommend as the amount of time to consider the deal before saying yes let's do it um here's the deal points here's what you want here's what I want okay should we sign it right away should we give it 24 hours should we take it to our team should it be a week you know what's that kind of a standard you think um unless you've got something in line ahead of time um the company name is a Black Swan group because we believe there's black swans in every negotiation which is

8:31something you didn't know that as soon as you found out it's going to change all the problems the deal gotcha so you sit down at the table to find out the unknowns huh and you it's impossible to research all the unknowns plus a lot of the unknowns I'll find them a lot faster if I just ask you right and I could research for two weeks something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in 10 minutes for example what do you mean something you'd want to ask um I'm do I'm uh speaking to a law for a long time client and they have another firm that I've

9:04been affiliated with coming doing a different block when I found out they were doing that block I could subtly reach back through my network to find out what the competing slash partnership firm of mine is what they're charging or I can just flat out awesome well I need to get the information a lot of information you got to get by not asking you got to trigger it you know the the phrase ask good questions it's really get good information and a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if I ask but if I act like I already know or if I there are other ways hostage

9:41negotiators trigger information without asking questions and hostage negotiators get that information and make you feel good about giving it at the same time so give me an example either in a hostage or a business deal with that kind of trigger could be well it's going to be it's going to be some sort of a statement I might say look I'm sure my competing companies charge you twice as much as I am oh and then they'll tell you the answer they want to correct me oh actually no it's the same or actually you're getting a better deal never underestimate the other side's desire to correct you wow

10:15because it makes people feel powerful it's smart you know you're going to want to feel smarter than me one of my clients is negotiating a deal for a commercial office building in South Carolina and it's uh it's almost 100 occupancy it's at a mixed-use uh historic area so it means the the building can't be knocked down and nobody can build it because it's a historic area and so the building's basically impossible to replace and it's 100 occupancy makes no sense to sell the building so they're genuinely thinking why is a seller selling first of all you can't ask why because why makes people defensive if I look at you and I say why did you

10:56wear a black shirt it's the thought is going to be like do I got to defend the black sheep yeah so you need to find out why we can't ask why because it makes people huh so what would you ask there well then again you don't want to ask at all because if you're smarter you change your white wise to what's it is more likely the responders say you know what's making the seller want to sell so you know what is causing them to do that not why are they selling but instead what my student did was he said well seems to me the sellers selling a cash

11:30cow because of a disbelief in the market fundamentals in the future of the building now let me correct you this is why I'm doing it exactly and the other side would like no no no they got they got a couple buildings that are underwater that I don't I can't imagine a real estate agent answer that question ever I mean this is this is highly confidential all right prior to you know my salary is desperate for money is is what the what the answer was but because it was a correction and people love to correct they'll correct you without thinking it through it's an involuntary response a desire to

12:07sound smart right you yeah to be right and correct you which is a burning desire in most people because it makes me feel smart and more powerful and I'll seize every opportunity to feel smarter more powerful you at the table gosh it's like a chess it's emotional chat emotional chess I love this and how do women and men compare as negotiators has counter as counterparts either against each other or woman man woman woman man man is there a difference see I think a powerful woman negotiates a woman who's really good at negotiations is almost Unstoppable wow um and I think that the reinforcement the societal reinforcement is constantly

12:49trying to pound men into being better negotiators and constantly trying to pound women away from it and I think that I think the the step from sympathy to empathy is a shorter step and women are socialized to be sympathetic and I don't think they're you know whether or not it's nature or nurture I know there's a lot more pressure societally and cultury culturally for women to be like that and I in my class women pick my style of negotiation up faster than the men do and the women go to my class start cutting bigger and better deals faster than the men do in business or in

13:28Life or in just in both gotcha so in in my view I think like after they graduate they go on to do well in the class okay you got you got to negotiate with skin in the game in my class and almost all of my students are rising star business executives so mock negotiations they're making more is what you're saying no in real life real life you've taken out my stuff and put it in real life why you're in my class and you got to write about it wow and uh one you know I've got everything from a billion dollar Wall Street transaction people in my class use the tools for I

14:03get a USC get a lot of commercial real estate State transactions wow a lot of people buying commercial real estate that are that are working on mbas have gotten a lot of those transactions got uh you know my favorite my favorite way to say no which I got you know the high question before the favorite way to say no is how am I supposed to do that just real calm difference there's great power and deference you know that's and that's what I did and kidnappings bank robberies everything how am I supposed to do and what if they say I don't care figure it out or she's dead well then you know

14:34that you've pushed them as far as you can and that means you got to Pivot to something else now the and and that's actually where you want to get to because the strategy of negotiation is find out you want to Max every term if you can and the only way to Max that is to find out that I've hit you to the full limit without making you angry enough that you slam your hands down and walk away because even your reactions or you shoot someone your reaction to this now it's like look you got to do it or things are going to go back yeah and it was uh one of my one of my

15:08students here in town is negotiating for uh uh for a luxury client to rent a house in Hollywood Hills and you know 20 grand a month was a rental and they were trying to get the rental they were trying to at least try to get it gotcha and so the person said it's 20 grand a month right yeah and and it's for very well his clients extremely wealthy so you know and you're negotiating a wealthy Market the other side always thinks you got all the money in the world and so uh he just said how am I supposed to do that and he said okay well then they shifted

15:41the terms and he cut the price and he moved a bunch of other terms around then they negotiated for a while longer and then he said again on the price he says how am I how's my client supposed to pay that and the realer says if your client wants a house he's got a pat bang you got a deal when the other side says if you want it you have to do it which will come out usually after the second third time that you said how am I supposed to do that so you knock it down a little more on a car real estate deal whatever it is now now

16:09you've maxed that term now you move on to something else or you make the deal but you needed to know that you pushed them as far as you could have without them storming out without them saying Chris Voss is not any fun to deal with I would never do business with him again then how am I supposed to do that in a deferential way right they still feel in control I'm not you're not saying screw you that's too much like what are you out of your mind you know right and if you don't make the deal at that point then what they say after the fact they

16:37say you know uh I didn't make a deal but I deal with them again you know they're they're all right they're all right to uh to deal with did they get the least how much they get yeah they got it how much you know uh they they knocked it down to less than 20 and then they got some softness on some other terms and then they then they cut the deal for that there you go and I wish I was paying 20 grand a month for a house it's a lot of money for us 20 grand a month wow that's a rich rich student yeah well

17:06USC they get you know people that are involved in a lot of lucrative deals yeah yeah so you're saying what is the importance of empathy in a negotiation what I'm hearing you say it's extremely important and that's why you feel like a woman would be a better negotiator in general because they have more empathy in general or well it's the shortest most people have confused sympathy with empathy okay what's the difference um empathies I can see you're upset let's just identifying how you feel uh sympathy is like wow I feel bad for you [Music] um feeling sorry or bad for someone is sympathy sympathy it's it's it is in

17:46fact it doesn't help anybody like I don't care if you feel bad for me right I could care less so sympathy is not a good thing sympathy is a weakness as a negotiator as a negotiation empathy is a good thing empathy uh and tactical empathy because we've really taken it past just empathy in general like we've been doing this long enough that I know what I'm looking for before we sit down I know that I need to find out the stuff that are negative emotions for you because I need to get them out of the way of the deal and I need to find out the stuff that

18:19are positive emotions for you because I want to reinforce that to make the deal and I know that the negatives are going to have be a bigger deal to you than the positives are so can you give an example of this in a business deal what that would well if I if I don't if I don't like doing business with Donald Trump at all then if he get if he's annoying me to the point where I get enough satisfaction keeping money out of his hands I won't make that deal or if I'm at a business deal where the other side and I've thought about this like you

18:49annoy me so much that I don't want you to get anything that I'll take less money to keep you out right so how would you eliminate something like that that negative in the DL so that you could well then then say like I if I think that you're negative towards me I'm gonna say look I'm sure it seems like I'm greedy here if I say to you like I'm sure I'm going to seem very greedy here that sets me up to ask for a lot of money because there's actually um science that backs this up now identifying the negative diminishes that every time so if I'm going to make a big grab for

19:26the money you're going to think I'm greedy and I need to get that out of the way because if I'm too greedy you're gonna you're gonna get some satisfaction by keeping me from the money even if you don't get any right and so I'm going to say look I'm going to seem real greedy here I'm going to seem like I'm very self-centered and that I'm greedy and then I'm not looking out for you at all and then I'll just let it sit and you'll take a lot more from me a lot a lot you you'll allow me to take more if I've said that in advance up front really

19:58yeah because I've diminished that your your thought is like I mean how I can never seem too greedient when I make that grab you're gonna say well he was honest with me told me he wanted a lot of money he didn't try to say hey look let's do win-win deal on that give me all the money right because if I say I want to do a win-win day with you I'm like hey I'll be nice to you I'll look out for you and when you try to take 90 and give me 10 it's like no it's not a good deal yeah but when you say it up front then

20:26you're more likely to get the deal yeah and get more of whatever you want right I'm gonna I'm gonna seem very honest to you I'm gonna you're you're gonna like that I was honest with you and you're gonna say after the fact like look he was honest I always knew where he was coming from I didn't like the deal but I did it anyways or whatever yeah okay it's yeah it's crazy it's that's this this stuff that we found out that works regularly we had to talk about another one we talk about the book uh there was a multi-million dollar deal going that in Washington DC the

20:56subcontractor was very unhappy with the general contractor and female negotiator and they were getting ready to lose everything and they sat down and they said you know I'm sure we seem like the big guy that doesn't care about you I'm sure we seemed like the big General Contractors trying to take complete advantage of the sub and not appreciate how hard you're working for this and not care about your future at all and she turned that deal around when she was done she took an additional million in profit for herself and her company and the other side liked him more so not only did they increase the profit but they had a better

21:32relationship that's why being honest upfront or empathetic or I can see how you might feel that we're going to do this it's a tactical approach there are negatives here we're going to address the negatives up front and we're going to make them go away yeah dress them up front most people don't want to do that I already did that do you know when I did that to you one I've already done it remember when we talked about doing the one-on-one role play yeah I said it was going to be horrible that's true you set it up front yeah and I always I always do that every single time the same way

22:03because if you do the role play with me no matter how it goes I you know you're gonna feel like you were beaten beaten up right but at least you told me I was going to be right and you can't come out if I say it should be horrible you don't you can't ever say well he's saying back me you know he caught me off guard right and then then what I always do then I I diffuse a negative and then I pitch the positive and most people pitch the positive and hope the negative will go away they sandwiched the negative positive negative positive the same I don't like sandwich at all start

22:32with the negative start with the negative and I said and you will learn more than anyone else what would you say then are the the three biggest mistakes you see a lot of people doing in negotiations trying to uh Club somebody with their Leverage um yeah explaining you know I gotta go first you know I got I got to set an anchor out you know this anchoring on price at terms is just such such a bad idea and so many people love to do it can you give me an example what that means um like if I if I know I wanna pay a hundred dollars

23:09and I'm saying look the best I can do is like 25. you know and you know you go this out on the open market I want to pay a hundred and I want you to work me up there the real problem with extreme anchoring from the beginning I think all season negotiators have learned it drives deals from the table um like I don't want to miss out a deal because my extreme anchor on the price of the terms at the beginning was so extreme that you're like I can never come close to this when we should have made the deal we should we should have figured out a

23:42way to work it out price doesn't break deals doesn't make deals it breaks them you don't make a great deal based on price you can break a deal if you try to undercut extremes somebody's going to get mad they're going to walk away you know you're going to get a you know heck with you I don't you know you you insult me with that offer and they just don't realize how many deals they drive away from the table interesting if someone wants to get a better price on something so that was I think that first off before I ask that question that was the second I think mistake was

24:14there another big mistake people make in negotiation the price extreme price anchoring using too much leverage to try to Club someone was there another big one but a lot of people do that's actually taught out there a lot um which is really bad is continue to ask for stuff after you've made a deal like ask for free stuff that's the worst right well you made a good deal here's a win-win

24:40and that's taught out there regular really it was you know there's a negotiation Guru from the 80s and I can't remember what he called it but he gave the example you go out and you get a custom-made and you've made the deal for the suit and one of the guys measuring you you say so how many free times do I get with that and he said that's a great way to get free things free Little Things after they made the deal thrown a pocket square I've thrown in a couple ties throwing a couple places whatever whatever it is you know what and what that does is make the person you did it

25:16to hate you um which they're going to resent it and if they have the opportunity to fail to comply with any term they will do that now unfortunately that's taught really extensively and it's done a business all the time and people call it scope creep feature creep interesting like it drives every single business person crazy because they don't know how to deal with it now the Black Swan method you know you might say if you were good at high questions you might say how can I give you free ties and continue to want to do business with you um you know how can I be a great tailor for

25:59you if you ask me for free stuff and it cuts my margin right you know make their prop what they asked for the obstacle to what they want either what you want is a path or if what they want is bad it's the obstacle mm-hmm you know how can I serve the needs of your family if you're counting into my profit margins you know there's got to be what to wake somebody up to it because a lot of people have been taught that they don't know any better like if I'd have stuck to that training that I learned from this guy back in the 1980s I'd have thought it was okay because I'm

26:34getting free ties all over them yeah like a lot of people um if they if they don't know any better how do you wake them up so that if they only knew they'd change now there's some people that are doing it on purpose if you do something like that to me because you didn't know any better let me see if I could wake you up if I can wake you up awesome we got a great long-term relationship if I can't wake you up I now know um and I'm probably like okay cool it's the last deal I make with this game one and done yeah this is a one and done I'm out

27:08but I need to know if if you just did it by accident I got job negotiation recently brought somebody onto my company thought we had the deal settled and the new employee new employee yeah because employment contracts like any other and this person brings up a bunch of other stuff after we've laid out the terms we've written you off a letter we sent the offer letter often letter doesn't get silence not a good sign my director of operations who knows no oriented questions an email have you given up on signing the offer letter um immediately comes back with a bunch of you know not ridiculous uh benefits more asks more asks which

28:04are not on a plate some of them are like wow that was interesting I never thought of that one now we can't do that not a million years this is stuff I aspire to but now you now we can't do it now but no this is I like this one it's just not a package now but my director of operations like I never had somebody come back and I'm like okay first I got to do is I got to find out did this person just not know any better so I engage in the conversation and I said all right so however this goes I want you to understand two things

28:35first of all I'm glad it came up now as opposed to six months from now um but secondly this is a bad habit to bring stuff up after the deal has been cut so I'm guessing you just didn't know any better and you were uncomfortable bringing it up right but if you come on board first you got to understand we don't do this to people and you're going to learn we work all the little stuff out before we think we have an agreement instead of going for a little stuff after the agreement right and this person was like Hey you know I didn't know and my intention is to help build the

29:12company and I appreciate you let me know and I understand where you're coming from they were genuine about it they were very genuine I needed to know that yeah like was is it was she was this person advised to do this did they do it by accident or do they do that because this is going to be the predictor of future Behavior which now we have a real problem right because if this is a habit that you're born with you are not going to last and you can't represent me no because the people that work on my team are also my ambassadors I gotta find out which one it is

29:48and I go back and we talk it through and we settle everything out and I got a list of things to Aspire to for employee benefits because these are great things sure so to finish that up one of the worst things you can do is ask for more and more and more and more things after the negotiation has been agreed on right do that before the final agreement is what I'm hearing you say yep yes if someone's looking to paraphrase yeah exactly you want to make sure I capture that if someone is looking to buy wanting to buy something acquire something whether they're buying a business a car a house

30:28um some potential little expensive item a jewelry something of of more value than a thousand dollars and they they might be able to negotiate a lower price you mentioned the extreme price anchoring how that is a mistake right there's a house for a million dollars I'll give you a 200 grand for it right right that's that but you want to get a better deal right maybe it's a Rolex maybe it's like a car maybe it's a house maybe you want to acquire business whatever it is something of higher value a ring an engagement ring you're going to marry someone right right right let them make their profit off somebody else yeah what

31:05should be the lower percentage on a higher item of value how what should the initial offer be you want to get a better deal so you don't want to pay a million dollars for a home but you really want the home you don't want to pay 3000 for the diamond ring the engagement ring but you really want that ring right how low of a percentage should you go to Anchor in order for you to feel like oh I got a great deal and I got the thing I wanted and they didn't get screwed over you know what I mean well depend upon the context I mean like 30 30 is good

31:43rule of thumb to start at well for for a Target like if you if you and again very very context driven sure like for example I'm in Macy's one time and um picking up this jacket girl I'm with really likes it She searches the thing extensively she finds like a threat out of place and she goes like watch me get 10 off on this check and I'm like that's right I can get 30 by being nice no way yeah tell me more well like in every transaction you know I look at it as an act there's an aggravation tax now the person that you're dealing with

32:23has already built in the aggravation tax because of all the aggravating people that have come through the door ahead of them so there's an aggravation penalty there's an annoyance tax there's an aggravation tax that's already there on a price now if you're not aggravating you don't need to pay the aggravation tax interesting let somebody else pay that aggravation tax and you benefit from them actually paying that that tax yeah let somebody else pay it um if I'm not aggravating why should I pay the aggravating tax so you know this young lady she'd gotten 10 off on a regular basis I will be demanding ten ten percent of the annoyance tax

33:03when there's another 20 to begin interesting like you don't so many people don't realize how much money they're leaving on the table really like massive amounts of money on any given the difference between ten percent off and 30 off right like they got away to give you a better deal if they feel like it so how do you get them to feel like it well so yeah great there you go exactly again the approach very similar to the hotel thing you know there's there's a there's a strategy where we sort of bundle the skills in the Blackstone method we call it the accusations on it the accusations

33:43audits accusations audit let me do an audit of all the names you would call me [Laughter] if I'm gonna do this uh-huh you say this you say to yourself okay not today because I need to come up with a list oh so again it's like look you get annoying people come through here all day long every day and want something for nothing I'm gonna look like just one like another one of these annoying jerks it's really demanding and rugby the wrong way and don't appreciate how hard it is for you to work in this jewelry store this car dealership this wherever you are you are knocking

34:22yourself out a tough sales job you're trying to feed your family people are coming here trying to take food out of your mouth because how do they see it you know it's not about you and it's not about it's really not sympathy you know the difference between sympathy and empathy you know I feel your pain right like I've been there too you know like I'm a regular guy like yeah yeah yeah like don't give me that regular guy stuff so but you you look at people like me you want something for nothing to come walking in all the time you know you look at us as as wanting discounts and

34:56you know and you're trying to feed your family now suddenly this person is like oh wow they get it this is not the other annoying jerk that came in here now now they're starting to open up and then you know you talked before about being playful being playful about this can be a really big deal I I've gotten so many things for free for being playful or upgrades or discounts just by let me just say a friendly joke or just something funny right you know let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like what is this guy doing you know yeah you've just got you don't got

35:28to pay the aggravation tax yeah and then Plus see Sean says you're 31 smarter than a positive frame of mind not only have you put the person in a better mood you now got them thinking about options what can they do what you know how can they help you what can they get away with how can they shortcut the TSA line how can they um what's the code for the employee discount like I you know and it's the same place where I'm where I'm trying to get this 30 or so off and I'm joking around with this guy sure you know and and one of the things again

36:02see is a human being I'm like well I'm Chris is there a Chris discount what kind of Chris discount and then laugh at that and so and I'm still not getting enough of discount and finally I go like look give me the employee discount I've been joking around I smile when I say this this guy goes like if I give you the employee discount I got to pay for this thing myself and I go I'll pay you back and I'm laughing and he laughs and so he looks at the machine and I says wait right here and he walks around and I see him and I

36:32walked up to a person and I perceive to be the manager and he's whispering to the manager's ear and I see this manager standing going like no really and he comes walking back and another employee intercepts him Whispers in his ear and I see his eyes light up and he walks over and he plugs in a discount for me and we get to 30 off wow but I was joking with him I was shown I knew what it looked like from his perspective I'm getting myself out of this aggravation tax thing you know let somebody else pay the demanding aggressive annoying tax you go in there

37:15and you brighten somebody else's day up you leave the world a better place you get some practice in because you want that confidence for the big negotiation right and all these things work for you and you are you end up feeling better about the day yourself yes you had a fun interaction yeah you got a discount exactly do you practice every day any on any transaction I mean any financial transaction are you practicing even if it's a cup of coffee if it's uh the gas station if it's a hotel it's a plane any are you always pricing it's a perishable skill and me and everybody on my team if we

37:55let ourselves get out of practice we get rusty interesting I'm really used to minority questions that's pretty much all I ask what questions uh no oriented what I'm trying to get you to say no that's what you do ridiculous idea your pricing that cost I keep that I keep that teed up constantly is it a ridiculous idea is kind of your go-to yeah is it a ridiculous idea for me to get a 30 employee discount today yeah and so depending upon my daily interactions I can get so caught up in my world then I don't get my practice in and so like when we started traveling and right

38:30after the pandemic I'm getting ready to go into Hotel I haven't done a hotel upgrade in a while and I almost talked myself out really I am I'm honest you know amygdala is kicking in it's not gonna work I'm gonna embarrass myself yeah I can I can see this guy turning me down I mean they literally stand outside the hotel like I go all right all right come on come on you can do it you can do it all right I've got to psych myself up because I'm out of practice yeah but you're the guy that's right everybody it's perishable for everybody it ain't it is not riding

39:07a bike yeah and then you also got to be willing like not if it works nine times out of ten sometimes you don't get anything right uh Hotel I was in recently you know my read of the guy is you run across deceptive people that are not there to help you that are not going to give you anything and to the course of the interaction I got several very strong reads that this person was that Minority that we're all afraid of is the majority their minority and they're there and so that interaction was all right so my read is this this and this now I'm smarter I see this guy coming farther

39:48away like Conor McGregor you know I win or I learn sure sure you know you win or you learn now I'm curious when you go into a store a hotel uh you know Airport is it and there's multiple options of people to talk to who you would buy from or get upgraded from there's two people at the counter there's three people at the store are you assessing first who I should approach based on body language based on if they smile if they're you know in a more positive state or is it depending on male female is it you have a success rate based on is it just more an

40:27intuitive feeling that who you walk up to you know I hadn't thought about that before what I'm really more worried about is what kind of vibe I'm putting off like I don't have a lot of control over who I'm gonna get in point of fact they're reading me before I start reading them because you know they got they got a revolving door they're picking up this energy I think there's actual energy there it's one of the things I bounced off of Andrew huberman you know is the is the energy actually there interesting and he's like the data doesn't support it I suspect it's possible and he's a very

41:05data driven guy he's solid solid science solid science peer-reviewed journals yes it's like the dad ain't there yet but I think it exists that's Chris Voss saying it not Andrew humor Andrew didn't say that he didn't say I think it exists Chris Voss says I think it exists these people behind the counter they're picking up on my vibe so what I got to do instead of sitting there like I don't want this guy doing this guy I want this guy I might be putting off a bad Vibe I need to put off a relaxed Vibe yeah just go walk around not in any hurry like I'm I'm cool if

41:39I'm looking at them I gotta make sure I'm looking at them and my inner voice is saying like take your time I know you guys are busy right I can't look at them like do your job I'm standing here I'm a customer you should be waiting they're gonna pick up on that if that's my inner voice so I got to get my inner voice in a place where I'm giving off a positive eye relaxed positive and then then I'm going to roll up and I'm going to do I'm going to do a read on the person in a moment hmm you know if they look like they're

42:07having a bad day I'm gonna say tough day um I'm hitting the reads on the TSA people all the time really for practice I do I do a misread on a TSA guy don't remember what airport I was in I ended up in an unexpected negotiation on the phone 15 minutes later because of the misread I looked at this TSA guy and he just looked kind of blank and I said tough day and he kind of went um and then I went just another day right he goes yeah yeah just another day but that little read is like stretching before going in the game and the conversation I had 15 minutes

42:50later which caught me off guard because I did the read earlier it was a really successful conversation what was that conversation I needed a favor from somebody what I did I said am I offending you if I ask you for this favor because I needed him to go out of my way for me and I did the no oriented question and I did sort of you know what am I going to do if I asked him I'd offend him I'm doing an emotional read I throw the two of them together on the spur of the moment which is really kind of where you want to get interesting you know you you

43:23play the same notes over and over and over and suddenly you combine them in the moment it's pretty cool and that's why I work on minority questions all the time and I'll do a random cold read the TSA guy my favorite one I I I I I've always got a bottle of water in my bag I forget to pour out the water TSA New Jersey I got a new jersey uh-huh TSA exactly so to get the water and they're taking my bag off to the side now they could almost walk me back out to the curb because the line is so long to get through security

43:58and the guy's got the bag and I realized I don't want to spend another 20 minutes in line so I go bless me Father for I have sinned foreign and he walks he looks at me and he walks and he looks at me and goes how long since your last confession myself that's funny I'm like I'm like you know what an hour ago I'm screwing up all the time yeah and and he he uh he took the water we poured it out he's not supposed to pour it out you poured it out for me he turned around and walked me back caught me in line in front of everybody else

44:29put me right back in the thing it's just yeah I'm taking care of this guy it's okay they put me through one of the most common negotiations that everyone goes through on a daily basis wow any well anytime uh somebody has got the words I want or I need coming out of their mouth you're in a negotiation you're in a negotiation right the commodity that's always at stake is time yeah um so you know I'm I'm in a negotiation when I check into OTA because I want a free upgrade right or typically I'm in a hotel early in a lot of hotels want to charge you early

45:06check-in people I don't want to pay that fee right or a late checkout or a late checkout they don't want to give late checkouts to anybody that's not one of their super Executives I'm always pushing for that 3 4 5 p.m late checkout right right yeah so I mean they could do that for you yeah if they felt like it you know never be mean to somebody who could hurt you by doing nothing [Music] um well everybody you interact with could hurt you by doing nothing which if you take to the flip side of that coin is they can do something for you if they felt like it right how do

45:39you make them feel like it demonstration a little bit of understanding recognition of them as a human being let's go back to your Starbucks example you're trying to show them that you're not treating them as a clerk behind the Starbucks counter that they're actually a human being you say the name hey how you doing today and it's not that you're saying how you're doing but I guarantee you that the way that you say that is you say it in a way where it's my intention that for the brief moment that you interact with me at least your day will be better yeah and their gut instinct is going to pick

46:09that up so the minute you're no longer demanding now your little negotiation with a Lyft driver is he gonna is he gonna come out of the Lyft app and go into another app that is even faster is is he gonna is he gonna drive the slow lane the whole time yeah or is he going to try to get around the traffic to save you a few minutes you see the Lyft driver he or she are they going to make some extra effort for you yeah you know there's a million things everybody could do no matter how simple the job is you uh talk to a woman that uh probably

46:39about three years ago she said you know we buy music for movies and the people on the other side are just order takers it's not a negotiation the way you interact with them on that phone if they write down which song you're after with Sony or whoever it is do they take your order and they walk it down to the hall to the guy who executes or they put them on a bottle of pile because they didn't like the way he spoke to them right you know there's a million and one things people could do for you if they just felt like it right so on a regular basis you're trying to

47:11give somebody a nicer day you're gonna turn around they will have done something for you for free yeah and then stuff accumulates what's the what's the formula or process to get people to do things just because they feel like it well you know it's it's really it's it's going to sound stupid yeah yeah smiling it's nice smiling uh Neuroscience behind a smile if you smile at somebody you actually hit their mirror neurons you start a smile in their brain wow smile is an involuntary response mirror neurons mirror neurons in their brain it's the same as if the doctor hits your knee with a little hammer and your leg

47:54kicks forward you didn't choose to have your leg kick forward it's an involuntary response so somebody sees you and you smile you've instantly hit their marinar ones you started a chemical change now they might fight it and sometimes you can get them three smiles right by a third smile you get them smiling too yeah so you've already started the process and then uh your inner voice betrays your outer voice when you say how are you to somebody at the Starbucks your inner voice is saying I'm trying to make your day better I I I want you to be a happier person they're going to feel it

48:33if your inner voice is saying like how are you today I need my Starbucks coffee and I need to get out of here and I hate this line and I hate how long you guys if that's in your voice they're going to feel that they're going to be pouring decaf and instead of instead of the other kind right so your entire approach the Neuroscience shows us the person is picking it up and responding and so your body language your tone of voice the greatest negotiators in the world really maximize that because it's an invisible skill yeah but it's in a skill you can teach it sounds like and learn and learn you can

49:09teach it you can learn it you can practice it all you got to do is you get you get your rep get your repetitions and um uh John Foley's a Blue Angel pilot I heard him speak about four years ago he talked about how long does it take to build a habit how much training do you need he called a grooving a uh putting a Groove in your brain the Blue Angels you know they got to build their habits before they get up in the sky otherwise the Jets crashed I was in a Blue Angel two years ago it was crazy man that hadn't been an adrenaline I threw

49:40up twice I was sick the whole time and sick for three days afterwards I've got a weak stomach but uh it was unbelievable at the same time they needed to know what they were doing oh for sure they can't learn up there right amazing to watch them so close just like feet away from each other and at Mach 1 or however faster four or five whatever yeah it's crazy yeah all right so Foley said how do they get that good they practice he said 63 to 64 repetitions to put it in your brain and um another guy wrote the Talent Code Daniel Coyle um he talked about perfect practice Yeah

50:21you could go excruciatingly slow as long as you do it right and the first time you try any skill you probably go slow you come to one of uh the training sessions of my company puts on I'm going to say say this word for word take your time and then react in the moment we have a one of the negotiation tools is what we call a label when I say something to you I want you to label it I don't care if you have to stare at me for 10 minutes label it label it it seems like it sounds like it looks like it label is a verbal

50:57observation okay but I need you to use those exact words and if I say I love teaching negotiations now label my emotion your emotion the emotion that I displayed when I said I love teaching negotiations to label that what do you say the three things it seems like it sounds like it looks like say all three of them you just pick one of those three say all right I'm gonna say it again and I want you to say word for word it sounds like and then fill in the blind okay I love teaching negotiation sounds like you love teaching negotiations yeah now that's enough now to start with what

51:39just happened is you demonstrated it perfectly okay because the important part is you have to say the first three words that actually fires the brain and you did exactly what I thought you would do we just said it sounds like you fired the brain and then you opened yourself up to whatever your brain put in that's why I wanted you to actually say the words the actual specific words because your brain will kick into gear and say something huh now your first label every time you fire the synapse you get a little bit better there's a substance called myelin your brain wraps a substance it's an

52:23electrical synaptic Connection in your brain and anybody you know if you know anything about electricity every time you insulate it flies a little bit better fire at 63 to 64 times according to the Blue Angel pilot and you get a nice circuit built and it'll fire quickly and then you'll start to hear it so we'll fire it again okay and I want you to label it again I love teaching negotiation sounds like you love teaching negotiation all right now dig a little bit deeper explain it more no no another label but use another adjective it sounds like teaching you you sounds like X I love teaching negotiation

53:06sounds like you're passionate there you go see perfect now you came up with another word now it stumped you for a second yeah and you you kicked in you you know you you let that super computer come up with another word they're like yeah I'm passionate about it about it now interestingly enough this is a way in a business negotiation because a great business deal is an alignment of core values just like a great personal relationship is an alignment of core values I'm sitting on a on a plane flying in here this morning I found out more about the guy sitting on a plane next to me then

53:45he's told anybody in 20 years with the same kind of an exercise what do you do for a living what do you love about it and when he when he tells me I now know the guy sat next to on a plane he's got an adopted daughter she was adopted when she was six months old from China his mother struggled with uh bipolar manic depressive she committed suicide at age 17. he was raised by his grandparents his grandfather survived the depression his grandfather at one point in time going into depression owned 11 banks that all went bankrupt he had to start completely over again his grandfather

54:24used to tell him I lost 11 fortunes his grandfather loved to live off the land they love to they love to make things by hand this guy's a very successful contractor here in Los Angeles and he's constantly constantly constantly working on improving himself um married to his first wife uh their their business partners they work together they work in different aspects of the business I mean I lost track of the number of things I found out about this guy I know I know about this guy from when he was three years old to now now in the space of what sounded like a normal social conversation

55:05I know this guy's incredibly loyal he's very practical he's very hard working he I just I just flew in from Vegas he was in Vegas because he was in a competitive poker tournament he likes reading people he's a very hard worker from what I know from this guy from what this perceived social conversation I know that we could do business together and if we run into trouble I have a pretty good idea of what to expect from him and how to deal with those problems if we run into trouble wow with the very sort of a thing that you and I did just now wow you know he

55:41starts so when he do that stuff out so you asked him a question and he says something you would use one of those responses it seems like it sounds like what was the third one yeah or it feels like it feels like it looks like it could be looks like because I might be reading your body language it looks like you're not that interested into it even though you said you were your body language tells me something different exactly and then and then see if you see that in somebody's body language your point before about Starbucks about actually seeing a person that same thing is going on

56:13and they might not even know it you know every night I get people go like yeah you know I've been struggling with this for a while really I'm really conflicted about it and they find themselves opening up because you know most of the time if you see conflict in somebody most people say I had to be fine just keep working hard it'll be fine right that's all part of the journey right instead of actually being a great sounding board for somebody and and helping them sound that out consequently learning a lot about that person at the same time it sounds like you're going through a lot right

56:43now it sounds like you're having a hard time with this it sounds like exactly or and that's exactly right and you start to become a tremendous sounding board for people so what happens to that person when you respond in one of those three or four ways and it sounds like feels like uh looks like what does that person feel on the other side when you're showing that type of compassion or empathy they feel connected with they feel very connected with they they feel seen you know they feel like they're a person on the planet they feel like suddenly they're not just another part of the Thundering Herd that

57:20nobody's paying attention to yeah they feel at least that um last week we're doing a training with some some pretty tough business people and one of the guys in this exercise is saying like I found myself talking about stuff that happened when I was seven years old he said I could tell you something I feel transformed right now and so we stopped the group at that point in time and we said all right so now based on Larry talking about that sort of a change what kind of a guy is he to deal with um he's a pretty decent guy yeah you now have gotten a glimpse into him

58:00as more as a total human being which means if he does something that you perceive to be a negative move he did it accidentally or you misinterpreted it which means it's okay to go back to him instead of you know letting the rage build up in you because you misinterpreted some or did it by accident he's a decent guy if he if he slided you he did it by accident right you can go back to him and bring it up and say hey I gotta tell you I got a problem with this um he's probably gonna open up because just based on his real this three minute

58:40exercise you find out about he opened up then so you probably yeah he's a decent human bear wow and every human being is going to hurt you principally inadvertently so you go back to them and and find out what's behind it and make them aware because they're going to want to know yeah every human being is going to hurt you everybody one way or another is going to do something accidentally on purpose it's going to hurt your feeling we're gonna we're gonna interpret it as negative the vast majority of the time yeah when in fact it was probably a complete accident there's a really good chance they got no idea they hurt your

59:18feelings right you need to know which one it was did they do it on purpose did they know they did it the numbers are that they did it by accident and other numbers are there's a really good chance they didn't know they did it right you know I went I went to uh you know uh landmark forum a couple years ago yeah to talk about making amends with people talking to people have hurt you and so one of the young ladies did you go through the whole program yeah one of the young ladies in it was like you know when I was seven this a girl who's my cousin you know yeah

59:53they bullied me you know he said something or hurt me I you know it's 30 years I haven't let go wow so we talked about it they talked about it and she said she went she decided to go to the person and just because to forget to forgive us to let go you know not forgiving is like taking pores and hoping the other person dies right you've heard that yeah so she goes to this girl and she says I want you to know I forgot the girl didn't even remember she got no memory she was just being a stupid kid at the time

1:00:2630 years the other person doesn't even know it so and by Nature we're joking around with somebody and we accidentally say something that wounded them if they don't feel they could talk to us they're going to carry it for 30 years yeah if I heard it if I heard somebody I want to know yeah you know I because I'm gonna be like I'm an idiot no yeah I know I did I did that to you yeah I know I did was there anything from the emotional intelligence training at Landmark that added to your curriculum of negotiations that you didn't already know or used before well not because

1:01:04it's all in a woven the biggest thing that jumped out of me is it it occurred to me that somebody heard somebody else without even knowing they did it like in in a master class thing you know they did a great job the master class people are phenomenal yes so we're wondering to the very tail end of it and they got me talking about this guy that bullied me when I was a kid you the same time yeah yeah and and I had I had I had literally never told anybody about this wow so you know it's and it happened when I was a little kid I literally had

1:01:37never told anybody about it not even through Landmark or anything nothing well and they get it out of me in master class they catch me off guard over it you know and it's to to this day this is one of the reasons why I hate pokes you know I want to become an FBI agent because you know we we want to go after the bad guys because the bad guys are bullies and there's nothing I like better than getting a bully that's victimizing somebody else and I think it was instilled on me in what happened when it was when I was a kid but then I started comparing that to

1:02:11this this interaction I heard a landmark where somebody bullied somebody else I didn't even know they did it and then I began thinking about like how many people have I hurt and I didn't even know right like they would come up to me today and said you already carried this for 40 years and I have to have done that to somebody right I have to I know somebody yeah yeah so it's you know this this forgiveness thing is a two-way street and all on also being being you know who do I need to go back to that I can think of that I and and say look like uh

1:02:44since I know that inadvertently I'm a jerk did I what did I do I'm sure I did something I had to have done something then it's an it's an interesting dilemma all sort of part of you know being a better person anyway which I know is what you're dedicated to it's almost it seems like it's really hard especially if you're a public figure that has an audience that you're gonna say something or do something that's going to offend or hurt someone right at all the times it's like you're always going to be offending someone if you have a voice if you're sharing something your your point of view right your point

1:03:23of view is going to reach a certain audience's point of view but not the rest of the world's point of view so it's like you're always hurting people aren't you yeah and at some level you're like offending or hurting or frustrating and their hurt's gonna be defensive in reaction yeah or they misinterpreted or you you hit a button with them yeah that you didn't even you maybe you didn't hit the button but you came close to a button that's been hurt before those and you know and interestingly enough we see this a lot with the procurement people that come to our training I'm really careful to say look look I know you guys fear

1:04:01procurement and and this is about dealing successfully with procurement and we had one person in the training go I work in procurement and you criticized you said procurement people were bad I said as a matter of fact that's not what I said but I came so close to your hot button that it hit it anyway yeah and I spent some time with this woman and she was afraid that that was what I meant and but didn't know how to approach me yeah yeah and when it came up subsequently I said no as a matter of fact procurement has one of the most difficult jobs on a planet

1:04:37you guys are both you spend your days either hurting cats or getting chased by villagers with pitchforks right you know it's one of the up yeah and she was like yeah yeah it's really tough I was just afraid that that's what you meant I was that amygdala that we were talking about before the 75 negative yeah we're all equipped with that and when someone even comes close to a criticism then we're afraid that that's what they mean and they're hurt how do you take criticism not well I've never really been good at it until I wouldn't say I've mastered it I think I've gotten better over the last six years I started to

1:05:19really like say okay let me not react to this criticism like they probably have some good intention they're trying to tell me and maybe there's some truth there so let me start to listen to the feedback or the criticism and say okay how can I be better is there any truth in there that really resonates or are they coming from a place of Anger of Their Own Thing criticism is mostly fear driven by the person criticizing right yeah yeah um and um and you criticize that in point of fact you've been hurt you've been disappointed you've been frustrated yeah you know there's a lot of things that you know

1:05:55never take advice from anybody you wouldn't trade places with criticism is a form of advice but you're afraid to tell people how to do stuff so you just criticize what they do some people and then they get it becomes an addiction for some people criticism is not a great Behavior I know you've heard the phrase nobody's doing better than you will ever criticize you right they'll Mentor you right so first of all how do I take criticism it I gotta take a step back and understand if somebody's coming at me with just a criticism even if they ask permission to criticize they got some they got struggles that

1:06:36are worse than mine right and if they ask you to give you criticism I'm I be you know they are an open wound at that point yeah yeah so I'm not gonna I'm gonna say yeah sure go ahead right I'm I'm gonna they've already told me they're probably coming from a difficult Place gotcha gotcha so what I'm going to try to do is just kind of take it easy on them and understand where they're coming from um a Blog I'm a big fan of Eric Barker writes this great blog barking up the wrong turn that's great Eric told me one time for every every hater there's going to be 10

1:07:12people that are on your side so when a Critic comes up to me I see that as there are 10 people you're indicating to me that I'm successful with nine other people and I'm not going to get down on this person because it's very easy to get down on them because unfortunately they're coming from a negative Place yeah what's a word you never say in a negotiation or the worst thing to say um business deals or personal relationships or uh the principle was coming on uh whose mouth it's coming out of like do you ever say no or do you ever say you know I might need to say no

1:07:46I'll probably I like to let no out a little at a time which is actually how am I supposed to do that is the first way that I say no that's no without saying no right that's that's saying no to what's on the table but not no to you let's figure if we can work this out there may come a point in time when I when I say no said and done um but I'm gonna need to explore every option there I mean I don't say it uh hearing yes is a bad thing to hear so don't say yes I would much rather say you know okay

1:08:19I'll do it I'd I'd love to say you win because when you win you're going to perform hmm yes there's nothing without how I need you to perform at a top level you perform at a higher level when you feel like you win if I if I hear if you look at me and we make a daily say okay well that's a resigned okay and we're going to run into trouble when we go to implement because the minute anything bad Could Happen by you by you're in action you know there's a phrase never be mean to someone who could hurt you by doing nothing hmm which nearly everybody can hurt you

1:08:56by doing nothing right um so saying okay I'll do it right or yes you went or you win right right I I want you to feel like you won you win so you got the better end of the deal yeah because are are you are you going to hold to the deal if you got the best end of the deal of course awesome yeah I got the better end huh right so you win okay I'll do it you win because you're both of them together um if I say it that's good because you won if you say it it's bad to me because you feel beat hmm I don't want you to I

1:09:27don't want you to feel beaten right right which is one of the real big problems with negotiation because since I've been getting helping people get better at it like I get more stories the guy says let me tell you about this deal I had them over a barrel there was nowhere for them to go you know for all types of persons I took them hostage well I guarantee you that the person they beat um was as passive aggressive as possible on the implementation of that deal but it felt good about its money on the table they didn't feel good about it right huh right it's always make the

1:10:01other person feel like they got the better end of the deal right right they won and yeah they won and it was their idea it was their idea I like your idea I'll do it something like that yeah okay yeah I mean that that that's really good and so that's why the one usually the one word answers of yes and no those are also frequently misunderstood you know the street kinds of yeses there's commitment confirmation counterfeit and most people are used to getting lured into a trap with yes you know would you like to make more money is it a true this is the off season

1:10:40you know whatever setup yes there is would you like okay yeah um you know what's leading someplace yes one of my uh one of my students is on a honeymoon and he's want to get um uh an upgrade on his bungalow and it's the off-season in this in this Resort now what they typically do is they cut prices on on their basic rooms but not the Hollywood streets and he but he knows they're all vacant that what he he doesn't want to cut price on a regular room he wants a honeymoon suite and he starts out the conversation with like you know isn't it true this is the offseason

1:11:21that general manager knows there's a trap there that's what you say and the guy starts going sideways on him immediately oh really he didn't say yes right he didn't want to say yes because he knows that yes his commitment and yes is probably a trap and he knows I don't know where you're going with this but you're going someplace that's what he said yeah oh and then what happened well and so then uh my student realized that you know he fell into this just yes trap thing so he had kind of he had to kind of get back out of it and they started talking and

1:11:53instead of trying to get yeses and no's on him he started describing the situation it started showing up a little bit Yeah well I'm sure you know a lot of guys don't like me come in we want a room we don't want to pay anything for it you get so many tourists that are in here in the off season and they're cheap that's why they're here in the offseason anyway because they're cheap to start with and they won't pay anything for for anything anyway and now the managers appreciate what guy's coming from he's leading with the negative right he ends up getting the upgrade really yeah free because he

1:12:24built a relationship and yeah the guy the guy the guy's got an empty room yeah never been meeting somebody could hurt you by doing nothing not giving you the the empty room is doing nothing you know you want this guy to give you a favor and he doesn't own the hotel and those rooms are normally vacant anyway so his owner whoever owns a hotel they're not mad at him because those rooms are empty they expected her to be empty yeah so he's got options you know ultimately you want to make the pets like you know you give me that upgrade I'm going to be a fan for life

1:12:55I'm going to tell everyone to come back and tell all my friends about this something I've done for like the last 10 years A friend of mine told me this line that he's like you know if you ever want an upgrade if you ever want like something better in the deal use this line and I swear I've been using it maybe it's been wrong but I love your opinion right I say what's the chance you can help me with this all right so that's a that's a what question to start what's the chance two things about that that I like um first of all it's a what question

1:13:22yeah and secondly um what's the chance you can upgrade me you're uh elevating the person when you're asking for help so you're giving them power right right the opportunity to have power right yeah so there's and I don't know that I changed that sense at all I might say in advance like look this is really going to seem greedy to me um you know because you can't you can't leave me with the negative leading with a negative if you if you try to call out a negative that's not there you won't plant it if you try to deny a negative that's not there you plant that baby that's why you

1:13:59have to know the difference between a denial and a straight observation and those that's a subtle difference because you're good you're probably going to want to say before you ask a guy for a discount you're probably going to say this guy's gonna think I'm cheap and I'm greedy I don't want them to think that so if you mention it all you've got instinct to say look like I don't want to I don't I want you I don't want you to think I'm cheap and greedy here that's a denial that plants it so I bet you might think that I'm being a little greedy sure I'm sure it's just coming

1:14:27across they're being greedy but what's the chance you can help you can upgrade me yeah yeah you can support me in getting up and so if you're if asking for an upgrade as a human being the guy is good no that's not gritty you want you want them thinking no you want them saying now hmm that was a great answer because when somebody says no they have just protected and defended themselves like it's ridiculous you will be stunned at what people are willing to say no to right I mean just absolutely stunned I'm I'm coaching a guy who's working on a new position with the city of Beverly Hills

1:15:08and they've they're constructing since it's a new position he sees his job description he wants to take but it's problematic the way they put it together yeah he says how do I negotiate with these guys because this job description is not going to make it work and I said look look at him across the table and say do you want me to fail and their answer is no and he said well look at how this is set up you know I'd love to have this job but he's instead of saying he wants to sit down with him and say hey look this is never going to work the way you guys

1:15:43designed this right you can't say that though you can't say that because they're coming from defense mode or something right right right now their ego's in a way but you say because when you say you do you want me to fail I mean that that's that's that's that's not I don't forget to help you yeah you say no to protect themselves you then come to the other guy's rescue and when you you're punching a lot of really powerful emotional triggers there would you say to somebody you want me to fail and and one way or the other I mean we try to sit down and think of the most

1:16:14ridiculous question that they would never say yes to like if if at the end of the negotiation uh if I can't if my one of my last things I'm always going to say is like if you can't budge at all I'll say all right well look it seems like you're powerless here oh because nobody wants to say yes oh wow seems like there's nothing you could do it seems like you're completely powerless here and they'll put you on hold they'll find a way to help so it seems like you're powerless you can't help me it sounds like you're powerless here right nobody ever would say yes to that wow that is

1:16:53powerful yeah do you use that a lot when you're at the end of anything bill or anything or something at the end of any deal if we haven't come to an agreement that that I'm happy with that'll be the last thing I'll say it seems like there's nothing I could say and it seems like you're powerless seems like nothing that you could say to them to get what you need right or for them to move right deal points and it seems like you're powerless right they're powerless right holy cow that's that's powerful inside so yeah we a lot of people have cut deals by they thought it was completely

1:17:25in the tank and they're actually just trying to end positively it's really it's critical to end positively so give me one little extra thing then if you know they want to end positively not like yeah empowerless here so let's do the deal yeah okay I'll throw in this or I'll give you this or yeah like I make it I make it a regular part uh like my credit cards almost all of them got fees and I called every year ask them to waive the fee yeah and and they almost always do until the guy says well we waved the fee on you last five years in a row so it sounds like you're

1:17:59powerless here yeah I want to say yeah I'll say that I'll say it sounds like you're absolutely policy it sounds like you're nothing nothing you could do and they'll put me on hold let me see what I could do I'm gonna come back and do it nobody wants to be powerless oh wow that's great someone taught me this like 12 years ago um and he said use this say what are the chances that you can do this what are the chances you can get me an upgrade what are the chances you'd be able to do this yeah after you created the Rapport and the connection and all those things

1:18:30what's the chance and that has worked really well for me and I'm wondering why do you think using that has also worked okay so I'm and I'm glad you brought that up because you asked me about questions before if you're going to ask a question they should only start with the other words how or what because they feel very deferential to the other side people loved to be asked what somebody should do or how somebody should do something it's extremely appealing to the other side there's great power indifference it feels differential so it's a lot more impactful than just saying it's an open-ended question the who what when where why and how

1:19:20should really just be narrowed down to what and how okay now how is primarily but not exclusively to map implementation how am I supposed to do that is actually how am I supposed to implement that what you know how do we get this done it's implementation what primarily but not exclusively to uncover obstacles what stands in a way what are the chances so when you put it like that you gotta what question it feels deferential it's open and it triggers deep thinking Danny Kahneman talks about deep slow thinking your demeanor is very genuine and curious and connective you want to talk with people and then what are the chances

1:20:22triggers people to immediately begin to assess where the obstacles in the environment are and they're really gonna probably if you look back at all your answers because what are the chances most of the time if I were to technically answer that question I would say the answer would be 50 75 right right and point of fact people probably say like well here's what we got to overcome here's what we got to do here's what that would look like they would be answering you in regards to the things to be overcome in order to make it happen and then you can negotiate more and and then they

1:21:00would think about chances or how hard each of those obstacles would be to overcome so those are the things that I love about that question that's interesting when you were practicing again you're practicing all the time I feel like this is something I've been doing as just a game in my life just like a fun challenge can I get this from this person can I do this can I get an upgrade it's just like a fun thing that I've been doing for a while but when I started reading your book and having you on I was like okay I need to do this even more the question I'm curious about

1:21:27is with every interaction is there always something we can get even if they say no like for example if they say no we can't upgrade you I try to say well can I have a free mint I think they say oh we don't have any meds then I say can I get a fist bump you know can I get a a smile I'm always trying to like get a something even if it's a little something what's your thoughts on that like even if they say no to everything that you want but can you smile for me can you give me a bottle of water can you give

1:21:58me something you know yeah yeah no I I love it as energy there's a measurable energy so it's always if you're complete mercenary uh-huh it's your advantage to be increasing your positive Karma right that's going to constantly increase your chances of success right and the more karma you leave around you you know whether it's real whether you know who knows what it is but you're gonna you're going to increase your chances of success yes and so or you know you increase the chance of success of the guy behind you the guy behind you ends up sitting next to you on a plane or you know whoever's in line

1:22:42alongside you as you're increasing that karma is probably there because yeah if you're on the airplane they're gonna be on on a plane next year it might be the dude next to you you know they might be the guy who either rubs a flight attendants the wrong way or who makes you feel good and consequently when she walks up to you she has a different I mean there's you know the sort of the domino effect Domino effect's always there so I love that I love that approach yeah yeah and then on and point of fact you're doing it in a positive fashion which keeps you smart

1:23:15so you're probably more prepared for your next interaction right and there's nothing that fuels all momentum like success yes so for Uganda as dude was a fist bump right you're walking forward with a success something yeah it's good okay good to know um can you share your for you your greatest negotiation both when you were working FBI it could be not in a hostage situation but just the greatest negotiation you had during your time there and also your greatest negotiation in life outside of that this could be something small this could have been for like the biggest deal ever this could have been an intimate relationship this could have

1:24:01been a buying a car uh this could be you know rescuing a hostage but in case if you can give one example personal life and professional life wow yeah I mean there was there were some different victories in hostage negotiation um after uh a really bad debacle uh second case it worked in the Philippines second major case the burn up some Barrel case two to three hostages uh would die died in Friendly Fire at the end that whole case 13 months from beginning then a lot of people died it was a train wreck it was it was ugly from start to finish an American citizen was executed early

1:24:38on I mean everything about that was ugly everything and um we had somebody got proof of life in the middle of that case and I don't know who it was or how they got it and all we we find out one of our hostages on the phone hostage is only ever on the phone for proof of life and he ain't on the phone with us and we're thinking like who the heck is out there is a competing bidder for the hostages like it was insane so struggled at that for a long time finally got the Revelation how it's done which is in my view somebody on the

1:25:14other side and another player as the how question so that was when we first got into how questions drug dealer in Pittsburgh really drug dealer on drug dealer kidnapping they drug dealer goes to the FBI because who do you go to when somebody important to get kidnapped the FBI no matter who you are even if you're a drug dealer his girlfriend gets grabbed by another drug dealer hostage negotiators is riding around with this guy on his own he says to the other bad guy hey dog it's my favorite phrase of all time hey dog how do I know she's alive High question Everything Changes in that moment

1:25:51who really had the upper hand shifted from the guy with the quote leverage who had the hostage total shift in upper hand when he asked that how question so I'm like this is it this is it this is it we got to change start doing how questions we got to do how questions but what if someone the uh the person who has the hostage is like well you have to trust me otherwise person's gonna die you know you just have to believe you know that's a possibility right and then what would the follow-up how question be if someone's being unreasonable and not giving you a little

1:26:27bit how are we supposed to pay if we don't know they're alive right you know we got we got we got a couple lined up for the bad scenario mm-hmm now there's a possibility that they may still go because that's the way it is right but you got to go that path to find out first you can't be afraid of going that path so we decided to do the higher questions and we do a shift we got another kidnapping in Ecuador this guy named Pepe oh I'm still friends with kidnapper the hostage I got some bizarre friends I got former prison gang members that are friends I'm

1:27:13sure you do yeah but none of more hostage okay yeah um so this was the hostage hostage Pepe's still a friend he and his family so we asked a higher question now the it's an Ecuador and a Gala which is a local police in Ecuador they're like we don't do it like that down here we ask a different Proof of Life question Papi's wife afterwards says she knew there was tension between the FBI and a Gala and she knew it was there but she appreciated professionalism that nobody would argue in front of her well they were arguing about this change I wanted to make so we're doing we're doing a higher

1:27:48question and halfway through this thing they start referring to Pepe as Don Pepe and we're like What don't that's a sign of respect um what in God's name is going on on the other side of the table and about 28 days in Don Pepe makes good as Escape es goes out two two o'clock in the morning driving rain storm middle of the Jungle goes out a window he's a jungle guy he was a jungle guide ahead of time in 28 days he'd been there he figured out where the nearest town was how to get there you know if he goes out in the rain all he needs is a 20-minute Head

1:28:28Start they're not going to be able to track him he's going to be able to get the gun he's going to be able to get out of there interesting 28 days in I get a call from the same negotiator that it called me a year earlier and said I got bad news Martin Burnham is dead this same guy happens to be in Ecuador on my behalf and he says hey Pepe's out he escaped he hasn't got out of Guerrilla territory yet he's on a bus we're going to meet him wow and so I'm this is all this how thing so we never got proof of life I can't

1:29:04wait to interview Pepe he's actually a New York state resident he's an American citizen dual National I'm sitting down with him in Upstate New York and I'm like hey you know uh we never we never we never got Proof of Life we're asking us how a question and he said you know it's crazy the whole time they talked about taking me to town to put me on the phone and and they kept talking with me about that and that was one of the major factors that he went from being a commodity a piece of property that they were housing in a house waiting to be sold

1:29:45to this forced interaction on the other side of the table where they had to talk to him regularly and kind of build a relationship with them and he happened to be very good at relationship building wow so we triggered the interaction and then he capitalized on it with his natural gut instincts wow creating the opportunity they they relaxed the security so much because they got to know him as a person they were less worried about him running away they got very relaxed around them they gave him the run of the camp he sees the opportunity to am rainstorm he's gone wow and that to me that was

1:30:20like great negotiation gives the opportunity for good things to happen and you don't get so focused on your outcome that you wouldn't take something better and just just engage in a process and let great things happen wow and he escaped and that was not part of the game plan and I realized if we got a great process if good things are going to happen you got to let them happen yes that's powerful and what about personal personal life outside of the FBI best most memorable negotiation again it could be some big deal or something that was small but really meaningful to you wow director of operations Black Swan

1:31:04group [Music] Chelsea loves working with us and we initially brought her in as one of the um uh you know the virtual assistants yes you know not an employee and you get a virtual assistant because if they don't work out you don't got to fire him you say hey this person wasn't right fit we learned about fed Chelsea's phenomenal and just loves working with us and the the most satisfying one was when we hired her um the the virtual company um wanted to continue with us as a customer and we were good customer and so they let you know the deal that you sign in advance is if you hire an

1:31:53assistant you got to pay them a penalty you got to pay them like 30 or 50 percent of that year's salary or whatever yeah right like they waived that we brought Chelsea we got we got a waiver because we continue to do business with them and we're a good customer and we're in that demanding jerks no aggravation tax but we took one of their top people so that negotiation went well and when we brought Chelsea on board we gave her substantial raise and she she almost broke down in tears wow that was cool that's cool and she's to this day like I joke around that she's

1:32:25like I'm a toddler and she's a minor she keeps tracking me right right and if I'm not where I'm supposed to be you know I'm getting a buzzing on my phone that's great her husband plays a banjo so her ringtone is a banjo wow that's great in a world that has now shifted to what seems like might be a for a while half virtual half in person this kind of flexible style of communication what have you noticed over the last couple years about the challenges of virtual negotiations versus in-person negotiations see that's another reason why I think this energy thing that you feel is real because you know everybody people get on

1:33:09Zoom and go like you know I got to see them I got to see him I got to be in person like you got almost all the same data visually that you had before yes like if you and I are meeting in person and we're at a table I don't see you from the waist down right if we're on Zoom I don't see you from the waist down the amount of visual data is all there and everybody feels more uncomfortable more on zoom and more more uncomfortable uncomfortable everybody complains about the Comfort feeling on Zoom and they attributed to the visual data and the visual data hasn't changed and

1:33:41it's my belief that there is a feel There's an actual feel that we get from people when we're in the room and I I think it's one more indicator of why you know this uh whether you call them uh you know auras or you know the energy that you exude is an actual thing and we just don't have the ability to measure it yet yes I mean like if we were all deaf sound would seem mystical right right so I think I think that's what we've learned in terms of human communication and then I think the the hybrid model is actually better for everybody I think

1:34:19it's created a better work environment I think we we have learned that we can be more effective at home and we need to get out of our houses right and we need to be in person you need both yeah and so how do we blend the two so that not only you're happier and more productive and you're happier because you're more productive and then and then you find the right job and your employer is happier with you because you're doing a better job and you're happier yeah so I think uh energy is real in-person energy is real I love the evolution of how we're creating a better work

1:34:59environment I don't think you have to have an office but I think we need to be in person frequently just to feel there's something about matching the energies that make us all better that's cool have you ever gone up against like gone up against but worked with another Master negotiator yeah I mean but maybe a complete stranger that you're like oh this person oh they know what they're doing like they're they're another level of they're using your strategies or they have their own that are really effective and is it harder to negotiate with someone who's actually really powerful Communicator confident using great negotiation strategies not manipulative

1:35:41or is it easier because you kind of both speak the same language it's uh well it really depends upon whether or not they're trying to be collaborative yeah and so it's easier a Black Swan trained negotiator is trying to be collaborative that's a great negotiation I mean and we're we're engaged in it all the time right like our our clients we're making a better negotiators like we're always trying to scare out a better deal we're always trying to figure out what's better for them what's better for us sure um and so welcome it it's really what the other person is trying to do and there we've run across some old

1:36:23style people you know you're here in Los Angeles entertainment oh yeah he's famous for being truly exploited yes she could have a great resume in the entertainment industry and be a really offensive human being now because of your resume your employer might think I had a great person when in fact you're running around offended people regularly right and and had a negotiation like this where it started going off the rails early and I looked this person up and they had an extensive entertainment industry background and I thought all right here's the problem right their resume looks great but it's from an industry where if you cannot get every get all the chips

1:37:10then you don't want to do that deal mm-hmm and and then I which I also think the top level of the entertainment industry you know these guys and gals get together at a social function and they say look stop messing around what do you need how do we make this dance right but they're very quiet about that yes because they don't want to be seen as pushovers right because well it takes a month or two to negotiate then they're back during like what do we need to do let's figure this out yeah yeah yeah so we you know we see when I see those types adopting our skills

1:37:45if somebody's using Black Swan against me but I'll figure that out really fast really and I'm you know it's not a sin to not get the deal it's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal because you're wasting time you're wasting time it's also sin to take a long time to get a bad deal and yeah so if I know the deal is going to be a bad deal then we could we move on what do you do when something you feel like is dragging off you're going back and forth back and forth and it's been weeks a month we're gonna go back and forth really

1:38:21look there's a good reason it's going back and forth we're going to figure that out and we're going to make a decision we're going to move on and we started you know our internal terminology which I bought from a guy Joe polish jeans he calls them halfs and elves easy lucrative fun hard annoying lame and frustrating what some people would call a pita pain in the neck Peter does not obviously finished with an end but everybody's got the term for that person so I I tell my team who negotiates on my behalf all the time look let's walk away from the haves sooner rather than later

1:39:00let's develop a profile of what a half says so we figured him out earlier now in the meantime let's pull our own data how long does it take to make a deal with a good customer how long does it take to make a deal with an annoying customer and we found out two things number one it can take five times as long to make the deal with an annoying customer wow so now we're working at twenty percent of our pay we just took an eighty percent pay cut interesting and do you know any com customers are not repeats right they're takers yeah and if if they're annoying for us

1:39:41we're probably annoying for that so here's the here's the prop proposition do you want repeat customers that pay you full value or do you want one-off they want an 80 discount and you're never going to see them again all right so as soon as you drop the one offs then the repeaters accelerate so how do you put yourself in a position where your business accelerates right you let go of those types of people so it's let go of the friction it's learning the profile and learning to understand what are the cues yep of those types of individuals yeah yeah we did the same thing in hostage

1:40:18negotiation they realized that there were some bad guys that were not going to come out suicide by cop and once we recognize suicide by cop which is you know the harsh nature of the reality is the guy went there to die and he has hostages what we had to accept was that he's going to kill hostages until we kill him that was always a him wow and so then if this is going to be the case are there telltale signs at the beginning and my old boss Gary nestler came up with a block of instruction called high risk indicators what are the indicators of high risk

1:40:58what are you going to see in the first hour and so I went back to my team and I well we're going to do high risk indicators for bad customers that's good what are they going to say in the first hour interesting and then let's and then let's before we know for sure let's make a list of the things that they say that we suspect and then let's just track how long it took to make the deal and whether or not they made another deal and you will be shocked it doesn't matter who you are the behavior is going to be repeated in your world over and over and over and

1:41:37you're going to be able to spot them in the first 20 minutes if I look back at all the relationships into relations that didn't work I could go back and spot the first you know interaction the second one and and realize well that was all because of me I didn't spot it correctly and I kept repeating the wrong relationships so um but that's good it's having those indicators tracking it and and then adjusting moving forward when you have a new potential customer potential girlfriend whatever it might be having that indicator I give you one of the big ones in business of somebody who's going to be a problem yes I've got a great

1:42:16opportunity for you that's about indicator it's a bad indicator and what that means is this is a great opportunity for me if you do all the work yeah now a lot of people are seduced by the enormity of the opportunity like there's a lot of money there I got a bunch of billionaires in a room this is a great opportunity for you no it's not no you're doing all the work yeah you want to put me in front of those billionaires because they're going to make you look good and so then my question will be back to you like all right so I just played out in the past

1:43:00who that looks like me did you put in this position and how did it work out for them because now that's implementation like all right so you got me worried by offering me this great opportunity I suspect it means if I do all the work something will come of this yeah so maybe what's that work look like right have you done this in the past how did it work out sir I'm asking how questions because I'm suspicious but I got to worry about how's this going to go yeah so that that's been a real consistent thing across the board it's a big indicator yeah it's powerful stuff Chris

1:43:47yes I got a great opportunities you know what if you would just go to Dubai and move your whole operation to Dubai yeah and set up there like I think Dubai is a great opportunity and you're going to be sitting there like are you kidding me do you have any idea the time zone I know how many people I have yeah but I actually when we were talking earlier I asked you about setup shop in other countries and your immediate reaction was how hard that was going to be yes because in throwing it out there I want to get a feel for is this a lab

1:44:27for you is this a slam dunk am I do I think it's a slam dunk and you think it's a three-point shot right or it's a half court shot yeah now I'm teasing this out like there are things like that that could be good opportunities for some people but is your team set up and ready to move for it right that's really where that all that comes in so if somebody has a great opportunity I got to know what the journey looks like my team is set up or it's not right but I can't jump at that opportunity and there are a number of places out there that are

1:44:59glittering jewels in a distance like Dubai which I'm thinking seriously about setting up shop there really but it doesn't work for everybody right right so I get I the some somebody's saying to me Dubai is an opportunity that ain't good enough right I've been there twice it's it's actually pretty fascinating what they built I mean it's pretty oppressive but again you're on the other side of the world you know and if you do a lot of business in the U.S and it's just a different you gotta see if that that could be a bigger benefit over this what's the journey to the opportunity and what are the obstacles in a route

1:45:35absolutely and very few people think about that because a great idea looks like a great opportunity and they don't have an appreciation for the landscape on the way what's a role-playing exercise that anyone could do with a friend that would make them a better negotiator try to get whoever you're talking to to say the magic two words that's right which means you got to summarize where they're coming from if you in in any given interaction if you've got a point you want to make yeah before you make it your trigger you're not allowed to make your point so give me an example um and you want the other person you're

1:46:19role playing with to say that's right okay so you were telling me about critics yeah you're a high-profile guy you're about helping other people which means you get criticized a lot that's right and when you get criticized I mean I you know I wouldn't say you're empathic oh you are I would say you're probably more compassionate those are two different things empathy is you have to have empathy to be compassionate but empathy is not compassion compassion is the next step empathy is a compassionate thing to do genuinely in understanding somebody but there's a real fine line there that distinct things and I think you have a tremendous amount

1:47:07of compassion for people so you know that when someone criticizes you they're attacking you um but you also know that they've been hurt and they're struggling so you want to know how to respond to them and have them better as a result of the interaction instead of coming back and making it feel worse and you struggle with that because you're under attack and you try not to try not to fire back at him right yeah that's right they see when I have a conversation with someone if you could summarize their point of view first summarize the other person's when you summarize the other what the other

1:47:58person's struggling with in any type of deal maker in any type of business deal or relationship buying coffee upgrading whatever it is right gotcha yeah then after that you can make your point make a point or make your proposal or yeah or whatever so if you're trying to get it if you're trying to get an upgrade on an airport uh you know on a plane or on a hotel right or trying to get a Super Size made for free right you're trying to get some type of upgrade for free right would you do the same thing would you say I know you're going through it seems like it's been a long day for you

1:48:35well you can look at them until when it's going to be a long day so right off the bay say long day right and then is as soon as you get ready to make your ask what's their initial instinctive response the knee-jerk reaction what's that going to be when I make an Ask once you've made your ass oh what's their of somebody's trying to get something for free yeah what's your typical knee-jerk reaction oh this person's just trying to get something for free from me right yeah uh so and everyone does this or everyone there you go everyone's doing this yeah so you walk up and you go like

1:49:10hey look man I know I'm going to seem like just another joke who's trying to get something for free somebody who treats you like you or their servant oh man somebody who doesn't care about you could care less whether you live with that they only care that your law your life long enough to make my coffee because that's what the other guy is thinking how do you articulate what they're thinking especially the negative stuff about you which when you say that they're going to be like no no no but what you did was you just woke them up you know you you walk you snapped them out

1:49:45of the negative Loop that's in their head because the last guy come in and said yeah and I want it now I hate waiting in line to stop do you do this all the time all day long are you constantly in the game of negotiation with people it's a it's that you know that I brush my teeth today just because I brushed them yesterday you know I I I genuinely I gotta keep my skills up yeah because it's either stay even decline or get better I want to keep my skills up the mercenary in me does it because I got to keep my skills up the missionary in me

1:50:18does it because I actually care about people yeah I just assume that you had a good day yeah yeah you know that you didn't that my interaction with you didn't leave you worse that my interaction with you left you better everybody we encounter should be left better by the interaction how important is the intention before you walk up to the coffee shop before you go to the hotel before you get on the phone with the other business owner to make a deal before you have a conversation with your partner about where you're going to dinner do you set an intention first like walking into the hotel you're like this

1:50:56is what I'm gonna say this is the result that I want to get out of this this is the the way I want to leave people feeling the intention yeah the intention is you know I I I I want to I want you to have fun with the interaction the other person yeah I want you to have fun if I if I if I'm playful if I'm intending for you to have fun you know I'm in a department store yeah I'm joking around with a guy behind the counter and I go I gotta tell you what you know what how about if you give me the

1:51:25employee discount right can you play discount I'll say it like that give me an employee discount and the guy in the store says if I give you the employee discount I'm going to have to pay for it myself really and I go I'll pay you back I said it just like that he went and he started walking around asking people how he could key key it in and give me the same discount without having to pay it himself he walked around the store for 10 minutes really I I and I and I saw I saw him walk up to a manager as a manager chicken and said

1:51:56hey he's going to someone else's and then on his way back another employee walked up to him on the side whispered in his ear and he went okay and he walked up and I get 30 off wow that's right but you didn't pay him back it was just like a playful I just you know yeah I just I just I just was being playful about it just being silly about it and what's the best way to get an upgrade at a hotel for you all right so uh a slightly different take on the approach yes my son does this all the time my son Brandon runs my business he's our best

1:52:25negotiator he Prides himself when we all come into a hotel he's got to be in a better room than me and I'm the boss that's hilarious and as far as I'm concerned I'm paying the bills yeah of course he got an upgrade in a hotel one one time that I couldn't even get on the floor you need a special key yeah key code me and the other guys were going hey we'll come up to your room because now I got you because I got to come get you no I said no we'll just come knock on your door because no you can't even get on the floor I'm on he paid less for his

1:52:55room than I paid for mine I'm the boss but he'll walk up to somebody and say I'm getting ready to make your day your day the most difficult day you ever worked here and he says somebody works behind a counter at a hotel I mean God knows what they've seen you know have you got a head in the bag do you wanna are you gonna have ritual sacrifice in a room you know what have you done you've done because in a hotel they've seen every every kind of sort of crazy thing you could imagine and they just go oh God what is it he goes I'm just going to be another

1:53:37self-centered person looking for a free upgrade you're like oh my God that's it that's it that's it oh yeah and they they they're immediately through the roof and they start checking it in and listening hey you know what uh yeah I tell you what let me let me give you this room it's not it's on the exclusive floor it's not a presidential suite president ain't coming so I'm gonna give you the President right right I know the president ain't coming tonight we're holding the suite for him just in case you can have it he's not going to be here wow I remember from our interview the last time I think if my

1:54:05memory is right you would say one of the strategies is leading with like being challenging in a certain way or I'm gonna be like I'm gonna be demanding a lie isn't that something that you talk well to a little bit yeah you know that way right I I'm gonna if if I know you're gonna react negatively yeah to my ask I will give you a preview that makes it worse look worse than what it's going to be yeah so what do you call that that uh framework for lack of a better term it's emotional language emotional anchoring emotional anchoring you know we don't do price anchoring

1:54:41you know but we'll do emotional anchoring if if if you're not gonna like what I have to say I'm gonna say look it ain't like this right that's what it is and then I'm gonna shut up because your middle is going to kick into gear and you're going to think that I'm gonna insult you your parentage your family your genealogy everything because the amygdala is going to go into overdrive wow so whatever I ask for after that is going to be relief and I'm doing that also because I need to keep an eye on how you feel when we're done not as much how you feel at the start

1:55:19but how you feel when we're done so you want something to be it's okay if they start off in a lower energetic um or negative attitude as long as when you finish they feel like okay it got better over time yeah you you feel you feel good at the end the last impression is a lasting impression interesting and that's unavoidable yeah it's it's what we refer to as a law of gravity huh it doesn't you know we have gravity we can't explain why gravity works but you're still not going to step off the balcony because gravity's there right the last impressive is the Lasting Impression no matter what

1:55:57so I need to more than anything else make sure that the last impression is positive or at least feels collaborative let's say you've um been in a negotiation with someone or you're a business partner with someone or you've been in a a long negotiation for six months with someone either one you've been a business partner working together for a year or two or you've been trying to find a deal with someone else for a year or two right and it's taking too long both auctions have taken too long that haven't you haven't been getting the results you want and you feel like you've been taking advantage of a little bit let's just say

1:56:38that how do you and it's going it started off good and it's going the opposite way right it's getting worse and worse how do you finalize it so that it goes back to a high or a higher mark I'm leaving you feeling better and leaving the other person feeling better or or you get out of it yeah or you just get out of it but you just say okay I'm done by I don't want to talk to you how do you not burn a bridge if you're in that situation um I'd probably say some of the effective look you're not going to like this to start with the emotional anchoring

1:57:13right interesting um this isn't working for me and I'm sorry I've been afraid I can't do it anymore um my problem here has been that I like you I've always liked you and the stuff that we've done together successfully has been phenomenal and I would like nothing better than at some point of time in the future for us to be able to get back to that but for right now in order to preserve the memories of the positive things we've done I gotta be I'm out now wow how do I remember that so every time I'm in a situation I could say that same thing what's a little bit of a sequence

1:57:58oh yeah and the the sequence is um we need to stop what we're doing right now but if we're going to stop what we're doing right now what everybody thinks of is where is this going in the future so I gotta I gotta create a point in time for the future that we're both happy with so there's still a bridge they're you know they're still there's still an opportunity for the future yeah maybe it's a year maybe it's never going to happen but you keep it open I'm open to it I want I I I'm finishing positively but I am finishing interesting yeah because you the last words that I the

1:58:36last two senses maybe even just the last sentence I've got a ring in your ears over and over and over and over because that's what your brain is always going to go back to the last impression how do I make you feel at the end I make you I make make you feel valued and you're going to appreciate the fact that I walked away without calling you names [Music] but I walked away Ryan it's hard to do yeah it well it's hard get your get your practice in get out of the practice Yeah you know you just you're working on it a few times most of

1:59:05the time what people have at the end is the the battle for the last word is when the last word is a cheap shot right that's when people screw you too hang up right right and I'm gonna call you back to say screw you right back and then I'm gonna hang up yeah you know there's a battle of the last words the problem with the last words a cheap shot but when a last word is a positive thing it's not a problem it's always ending a positive with positive words right even if you feel taken advantage of even if they hurt you even if they screwed you

1:59:31over or whatever you should always try to end in a positive way yeah without question because if you're talking to them then your goal was to resolve things and to have a great relationship now you might say that at the very beginning of the interaction but it's more important to say it at the end you know my goal was always to have a great relationship with you and if we could get out of this Dynamic that would be my goal again but right now I'm out you know but understand that at any point in time we can go back to working collaboratively I'd love to do it oh that's good yeah and so usually

2:00:11what it is is take take what you said at the beginning and at least say it again at the end that's good yeah I like that what is something that you did as a hostage negotiator with terrorists around the world that you use today in just common interactions is there something that you did at the height of like this intense conversation that you you do on a daily basis pretty much everything you've all been talking about yeah you know I'm gonna I'm gonna make a verbal observation on on how they're processing things you know it seems like it seems like it sounds like it feels like you'll see all

2:00:47those things yeah yeah that's the bread and butter of great hostage negotiations really yeah it's having them be seen or heard yeah feeling understood you know people are taking actions to make a point what happens if you can make the point without taking the action [Music] um they're taking actions to make a point right and you're you're saying you don't need to take that action because I hear you yeah let me see what happens if I can if I can if you and it makes no sense at all but I'm going to take probably 90 percent of a terrorist agenda away just by making them feel

2:01:24hurt making him her feel heard ah then then I'll deal with whatever I have to afterwards but let's say I could only take away 10 of their agenda by making them feel hurt yeah what what if I could only take away one percent of their actions by making them feel hurt that's worth the investment to me let me see what's left over after they feel hurt less fingers they're cutting off less people they're blowing up whatever right yeah one way or not yeah what is um what's the best approach say I'm looking to buy a company right I'm looking to acquire something I really like this software this tool this agency

2:02:00I want to buy them what's the best approach without seemingly or thinking like oh if I come to them like I'm too needy I really want them then I'm giving them all the power right what's the best approach of someone that wants to buy something yeah um completely counterintuitive what are all their arguments for making you pay the high price State them first because what that actually does is it leaves them with nothing to say so eight mile long very nice right exactly right hey Milo yeah we used to we used to use that that clip from eight mile all the time so good articulate everything they got to

2:02:44say for instance if um I'm an agency you want to buy me right my company what would you say if I'm like my business is growing we've got all this attention we're helping clients with big results we're we're growing as fast as possible and you're like wow this company is really growing we got to get them now before they're too big what would you he called me up on the phone do you write me an email to me for coffee what's the best approach uh in person email phone video conferencing if you could have it anyway all right I'd say look um uh I'd probably say uh

2:03:24right off the bat like like I'm completely blown away with what you're doing you guys are phenomenal you're on the upswing you guys are killing it um I'm gonna seem like a cheapskate foreign like I'm trying to get something for nothing so emotional anchoring yeah is it a ridiculous idea for us to talk about you selling me your company wow getting something for nothing is that what he said too yeah well okay because I'd start off with appreciation yeah I've lowered your expectations of me and see the last thing that I did also was I did what we refer to as a no oriented question instead of saying would you like to buy

2:04:12would you like me to would you like to talk to me about selling your company I'd say is it a ridiculous idea for us to talk about you selling me your company and what if I say yeah it's kind of ridiculous and we're done I never had a shot to begin with ah see this is about keeping me out of deals that either I'm never going to make or I don't want to make so it saved you six months of your life potentially in a two-minute phone call right but if they say yeah we're growing super fast it'd be it'd be hard for me to really want to

2:04:42sell right now but you know if you made me a great offer me I'd be open yeah I'd say sounds to me like there's just no way they're gonna be able to ever make you happy uh because I need a great offer yeah you if you say something like that to me what you're actually doing is trying to get a really high bit out of me to soothe your ego you want to go back to the employees and say you know what we're worth 150 million dollars and I turned it down [Music] because in five years we're going to be worth 450 million dollars wow so that kind of that kind of a question

2:05:25is you want to bid for me to make you feel good what made you want to get into um becoming a negotiator in the FBI why do you think this would be fun for me or something you wanted to do well it was originally a SWAT guy and uh you know before I got into law enforcement I figured to be a SWAT guy like I'm a medium-sized guy yeah so I figured well I gotta do martial arts and so then in college Then I then I ripped my knee up really badly in college and martial arts and that was what we ended up being the Turning Point negotiation because then I

2:06:01was on a SWAT team in uh with the FBI when I was in Pittsburgh and was on a SWAT team there and then I tried out for the bureau's version of the seals which is the hostage Rescue Team and when I tried out for the hostage Rescue Team HRT then I re-entered my knee again and then I realized there's only so many times doctors could put it back together it's tough Humpty Dumpty how many times did the doctors put you back so after they got the knee put back together the second time I looked at hostage negotiation I don't know what negotiators did you know it sounded both

2:06:35cool and easy right you know and and I thought I could talk to terrorists I remember literally thinking yeah sure okay so then but and then that that actually was a big Turning Point getting on to the team in the New York City office because originally the woman who ran the team just tried to shoot me away um because I had I had no credentials right I just figured I could do it I'm I'm from sort of a can-do pitch in kind of world yeah I grew up in a small town in Iowa and it's like hey figure it out do it get it done move on to the next

2:07:07thing we're in Iowa Waverly Waverly I've been away really so that's why yeah that's a Mecca of Iowa culture okay no I'm from Mount Pleasant Iowa all right yeah Southeast corner of the state it is about 35 miles south of the future birthplace of James T Kirk okay just for all you Star Trek there you go there you go so what was the first um negotiation process like for you at the FBI what was it how long have you been at the FBI for and what was the outcome yeah the first real deal was uh bank robbery with hostages in Brooklyn your first deal was a bankrupt my first FBI Gig if you will

2:07:47wow and this happens once every two decades uh bank robberies with hostages are rare events okay where was the bank it was it was in Brooklyn at 7th and Carroll it was Chase Manhattan bank and there we were no but I was uh I was I was actually scheduled to do a terrorism-related interview that morning and I was a I was a not quite a year out of negotiation training and part of my Charlie Baldwin came in says bankrupt with hostages in Brooklyn let's go wow and you were in Manhattan at this time yeah so uh Charlie and I and we were both nursing bad knees at the time he

2:08:27actually had a bad left knee I had a bad right knee so you got your wheelchair your crutches hobbling around and so we we pull up to the bank robbery and we're too close to the crisis site and we didn't realize we're like right on top of where the bank is where the bad guys were so two two guys with bad knees bail out of a car and low crawl basically through the inner perimeter to to where the negotiation team was being set up and that was that was my first gig okay and now is the team in a van like it is in the movies where you're like have a van

2:09:01and you've got the radios and if you can't set up someplace then you get a van gotcha and NYPD had a van but we didn't need it we set up in a bank across the street took over it was Chemical Bank at the time and just took over the bank and set up the negotiation room right across the street and started rock and roll took us two hours from the moment the bank alone went out to First Contact was two hours two hours is that quick or is that you know it's probably standard okay because it takes everybody a while to get there two hours so they

2:09:32had to wait for two hours to till they got any communication well that's what we thought the bad guys inside were really tricky and they and that was that was one of the first things that I began to learn lessons about business negotiation because the the organizer inside was one shrewd guy and it's a cliche in a business world that if you're sitting at the table with some guy who wants to make them seem powerless that's an influential guy a guy who always said look I don't have control over what's going on here you know I got a CEO I got all these people anybody that points to negotiators away from the

2:10:07table the harder they work to make themselves seem powerless the more influential they are because they don't want you to Corner them at the table because they don't have the decision they can't make the decision well they can they don't want you to know it yeah right they're acting like they can't make it right right right and this guy that bank he just kept saying you know these other guys that I'm here with they're so dangerous I don't know what they're gonna do and he was extremely calm and at first we just thought we were dealing with an inadequate personality somebody just had no power but we found out after the fact that he

2:10:44was one of the most controlling guys and the guys he took to that bank robbery they didn't even know they were going to rob the bank they thought they were going to burglarize a cash machine wow he was he was manipulating everybody so my first solid dose with that with somebody like that was like one of the best business lessons I ever learned wow what happened how long did the process go for 12 hours a little over 12 hours of Total how many hostages there were three hostages inside two women and a man they had uh they had guns they had everything I'm assuming bad guys rolled

2:11:14in this guy thought everything through in advance and he rolled in with a gun that looked like a 357. was actually not because he wanted everybody to think he had a 357. so the first thing he does when he rolls in the bank is uh he takes a two female tellers hostage he hits one of them in the head with the 357. he sticks the Barrel in the other one's mouth and pulls the trigger oh my gosh and she's like terrifying yeah it's frightened out of her mind she thinks it's you know it was just uh an empty chamber which is what he wanted her to think and

2:11:48then and when he when he dropped the hammer on and empty chamber he said now open a vault and they wasted no time getting that involved open but by then the police had showed up we'd surrounded the bank and so the Vault was open they got cash and bags or whatever they were getting ready to get out when we surrounded they surrounded them so how do they get out well they you know we had them trapped inside and so we we went through a really long negotiation I mean this guy's thought everything through so you're on the phone with him you get a hold of him he gets a hold of you how's

2:12:16that work we uh called the bank the first thing we do is we we try to isolate the phone loads right so but so we just got in on we connected our equipment to a phone and just called it on the bank phone and this was uh and that ended up being the way we communicated the entire time he was picked it up the first time and yeah well because he's smart he was he wants to figure first of all he wants to get away what we're doing he wants to get away and he also realizes that if he's talking to us there's a pretty good

2:12:44chance we're not coming in right if he's talking to us it also if he realizes he's got to manage the risk level you know he's got to talk to us in really measured tones and so he knows as long as he's talking to us it sounded reasonable we're probably not going to break down but if they're sounding crazy then you're going to come in then we're going to come in huh so he sounded reasonable he was right like what was the conversation like well he started off right off the bat by telling I was the second negotiator the first thing he'd done was he had already actually we didn't know

2:13:19he called the precinct before we got there he called the precinct and said they wanted to surrender which also then that that's for on his perspective he thinks that that means we're going to drop our guard and it's very much like a really shrewd negotiator says look I want to make a deal you know Ed if you get a negotiator says you know let's do a win-win deal right I mean the sooner win-win comes out of somebody's mouth across the table that well that's an automatic marker somebody's trying to to oh really to rip me off oh interesting because he's trying to get me to relax he or she sure

2:13:54sure you know if I look at you and say hey man you know let's do a win-win deal here you need to be putting your hands over your wallet really because I'm going after it that's funny because I'm always thinking about you know I'm trying to come from a place of win-win and all my relationships and business deals right now in my life right but I'm honestly not trying to like screw someone out of a you know by saying that I'm really like let's make sure that you win I win in this business deal or you know whatever's happening but it's different maybe when there's someone who's stealing something well

2:14:23it's it's context too but and then it's the first thing that you say is like if you say to me look I want to make sure that this is good for you and I don't want it to be good for me at the same time right you know you're you're expressing a win-win but if I sit down I would say like look Lewis you know I need uh let's do one win here I'm telling you I don't want to pay you anything the pseudo act comes out of my mind I'm interesting so you should negotiate first before saying that's what you're saying well you start thinking about stuff other

2:14:53than money well you know what I'm really telling you is I don't want to give you any money gotcha in that context right gotcha right but the sooner somebody starts trying to give you a deal it's a great move to get the other side to relax right right okay so what happened next well um he called the precinct and said they wanted to surrender so what he the deal he wanted to do was he said put a van out front we'll all get in the van and we'll drive to the precinct right that's absurd all right like you'll drive the priest okay right like but that's an escape plan right so but

2:15:33because it came out half that information came out when we actually got to the bank at the beginning all the top brass that showed up they figured you know they're half paying attention they figured they it should be 20 minutes and it's over because that was the information we first got that that wanted to surrender and as stupid as that sounds a year earlier a hijacked plane had come in a JFK and then hijacking the hijacker said he wanted to surrender as soon as the plane touched down and that was in fact what happened so there was some precedent in New York for somebody who wanted to surrender

2:16:05right away so if you have paying attention you're thinking oh this is the same as this stupid hijacker a year ago right well it wasn't the hijacker that came in a year earlier he wanted he wanted to get into the U.S to get out of his country and he figured jail in the U.S was better than life and he just need a free ride to the U.S wow yeah Jack the plate that's funny he didn't know he was going to spend life in jail wow but that he and so that was some precedent for it so the bosses show up and they're just hanging out outside

2:16:37shaking hands they're not paying attention to what's going on you know pretty soon they wouldn't want to take a negotiator so long they're looking at their watches they're like we've been here an hour you know these guys said they want to surrender an hour ago why is it hot well they were stalling and they were trying to escape and and we also found out the county inside was um he was burning money in the basement the bank was under construction at the bank wow and what he was doing was he stashed a couple hundred thousand dollars inside the construction and then he burned a pile of money

2:17:10in the bank and he won and so he figured I don't have to get away with the money I just got to get away if I had enough money at the wall later I'll come back and get it later wow see who's a cagey guy he was a really case smart and at uh at 8 30 that night right at 12 hours later he walked out of the front of the bank and we put those but even even up to the last minute I saw because I was inside I saw the video when he's looking around he came out real slow and he was looking left and right the

2:17:48whole time I mean right up to the moment that our SWAT guys actually put the hands on him he was looking for any opportunity to escape yeah he never lost his Poise the whole time wow interesting so how did you guys finally get him to surrender or to well he got when I got on the phone with him I was part of a change of strategy something wasn't working for a while right well we'd slowed it down and I was going to be the really tough nice guy all right all right like I'm gonna my job to get on the phone was to be the immovable

2:18:20nice guy and the nicer you are the more movable you could be you know and out forgive me for picking on Mr Donald Trump right now but you know the style of being you can be very aggressive without or very assertive without being aggressive and his style is he wants to yell at people you know he wants to intimidate his way in you don't have to give up that much assertion you just you don't want to be that mean you don't want to be that hard on for example what do you mean like how well you know there's there's a we're in La yes um there's a great guy here in town his

2:18:55name is Tom Girardi voted top trial attorney in California several years in a row by the bar association he gets a voted top trial attorneys so many times that when they put it on the front page they say again wow so he comes in and he's a guest of my class at USC and he stepped and I know he's a top trial attorney but I don't know his style I figure he's going to be an attack dog because I spent so much time in New York you know he used to attack dog attorneys and Tom walks into the class and he says you know the key to negotiation is being

2:19:24nice and gentle that what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your guard and Tom was immovable unrelenting opponent and that's why he's so successful and he's ridiculously nice about it like he smiles and he chats with people and he always talks about how we'll collaborate with each other in the future he's you get into an argument with him it immediately he'll bend it where he's talking with you about how you and I are going to be successful together 10 years from now hmm or in the future which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does like if you're barricading the bank I'm going to say my

2:20:06first goal is to get you out of there alive well I picked a point of future that we could collaborate on Tom Girardi does this instinctively and he's just super nice about it I mean like you either you've got to cooperate with them because you like him so much he's never going to let up on you or more than likely you're going to say something accidentally and and he gets people saying stuff accidentally and he and then he could and then he doesn't jump on you if you say something accidentally he lets you say so many things accidentally what do you mean accidentally well like you know

2:20:41he loves to get people on on uncovered emails that they never should have written like if you if you send Tom an email saying Tom let's go have lunch together he will not email you back saying okay because he doesn't put anything in emails because that's a downfall of almost every single lawsuit somebody who's done something wrong is going to put it in an email wow and Tom knows if he's nice to the other side long enough he's going to figure out where those emails are so and that's what people do all the time you know lawsuits are uncovered people get into trouble with what they

2:21:14put in emails when wow when they when they say hey they send an email to somebody else they say Hey you know we you know we shouldn't be doing this if a person sends an email back saying like yeah it's okay nobody's okay we're gonna find out oh my gosh in today's day and age people put stuff in emails and so Tom knows he's just relentlessly nice Relentless and the most Charming guy you ever met in your life Wow so you don't have to be aggressive to get what you want to get what you want interesting okay I've got a bunch of questions for you that I want to ask

2:21:44about this but I want to do a role play first if you're cool with it I'd love it you say you do this in your class after a special outfit no we gotta wear we're going to wear uniforms exactly yeah I'll be a referee okay perfect and you'd be a wide receiver I can do that call you for illegal procedure there you go uh but you do this in your class right because you teach at USC business school and one of the role play usually consists of all right so I I say I say all right I'm going to ask you to volunteer to role play with me in front

2:22:14of the class okay and I want you to know just in case you're worried about role playing with a hostage to go straight in front of everybody just ease your mind just so you won't worry I promise you the experience is going to be horrible perfect and you probably get more out of it than anybody else in the class okay all right so here's a role play you volunteered you you agree I have a bank robbery you're a hostage negotiator I'm trapped in a bank yes you and your colleagues have got me so out of your job to talk me out just like your first case right okay you got there's only

2:22:56four restrictions can't give me Transportation you can't give me weapons you can't give me drugs or alcohol and there's no exchange of hostages you can't offer command if I offer to let everybody go you can't offer to send my mom in to find out everybody goes I can't get anyone to come out people people only come up nobody comes no exchange for no you know like Eddie Murphy did a movie let me talk to you you can't do that you can't walk no one can come in no one comes only people can come out only people come out so those those are your only four restrictions can something

2:23:30else come in sure if you if you don't break any of those other restrictions no alcohol drugs no alcohol no weapons no drugs no Transportation no passage exchange okay we'll do the negotiation over the phone all right when you when you're ready say ring ring I'll pick up ring ring I need a car in 60 seconds or she dies let me see what I can do on that okay uh you got 57 seconds to do something well Chris we don't have cars that quickly tell me your killer right now you've got 55 seconds as a matter of fact or you tell them you're gonna give me a car

2:24:07let me see what I can do on that get back I heard you say that before you've got 50 you've got 45 seconds car yes or no I need to make sure she's still alive before I can get you a car she's alive I need a prayer 43 seconds I need to hear on the phone nope no absolutely not 40 cents I want to help you get exactly what you're doing fine you're telling me you didn't give me a car I'm gonna do my best to get it for you as quickly as I can do my best are you telling me this is that a yes to a car 35 seconds I'm

2:24:35gonna do my best to get you a car I need a little more time than 30 seconds because we can't tell them you can't give me a car then you have just said you are going I'm gonna get you a car just give me a little bit more time yes I'll get you a car yes on the car okay you got 25 seconds because there are cars everywhere if you can give me one you give me one it's right up front right now and give us a few more minutes and we'll get you a car as quickly as we can you get 25 seconds you're gonna have to give me a little

2:25:01bit of help here that doesn't give you anything you got 20 seconds we're gonna do our best to get you a car yeah you just said you were going to give me a coin now you're back as quickly as we can you're saying yes on the car yes in the car 30 seconds that killer okay well we just need to make sure we have a few more minutes to get the car for you yes okay 10 seconds okay our men are on it right now okay we'll stop there okay all right so literally the tents everything that you did was wrong no no your strategy is on

2:25:33the money okay see and I would only change how you tried to implement the stratage okay but you um you're trying to feel me out a little bit uh-huh you got a great total voice like I was attacking you like crazy yes I'm I'm hitting you hard yeah and I actually use one I use the Donald Trump voice basically uh-huh now you didn't respond you didn't you didn't lose your stuff at all right you stayed very calm the whole time okay that's the key that's not easy to do no because I was feeling it inside I was like oh man that's very impressive that your voice didn't come up one iota

2:26:09in that negotiation and then with that particular voice is a counterpart it's not at least a bit unusual we start talking over each other right you know talk over me once right is that a key yeah not talk over it not try to interrupt or secret degating the upper hand negotiations given the other side the allusion of control now I'm coming at you as a very control oriented negotiator right as soon as you don't struggle with me over control you actually begin to gain an advantage because then you feel like you're in control right you don't have to try to gain it anymore right right I'm more

2:26:41than likely going to start dropping my if I'm a control freak guy if I want to talk all the time I'm a control freak guy control freak uh negotiators who want to talk all the time they feel out of control when they're not talking she ought to get them to the point where they don't talk but they don't talk because they're relaxed not because they're trying to seize control right so you did you did a real nice job with that now the the only thing one another thing that we teach is see you're not going to give me a car right and you try to make it sound like

2:27:12you were going to yeah I teach how to say no and and then you want to feel other ways of saying because the real answer to that just like at the very beginning of my book you're supposed to look look at me saying how am I supposed to do that so pose it back to a question right a how question an open-ended question well not just open it how okay how is a key to life yes is nothing without how so you never find and and you could also started talking about how without talking about yes so to say what I even say you could say how would I do that

2:27:51would I say I love to get you what you need how would I do that just how would I do that how would I do that so give them the control to fear at the solution right right right how am I supposed to get you the car in that time frame because that's what you're trying to express there actually is a Time problem here right in 60 seconds how am I supposed to get you a car right right that that's different than we can get a car we just need 60 more seconds all right we need more time yeah right because because now I think now I think

2:28:19you're ducking me okay but if you instead you say like how might you know of course the car is out here right away but first of all I gotta I gotta tell everybody what we're gonna do I don't need anybody to get surprised let's talk through the details of how this is going to get done in the meantime what got you here in the first place hmm you know how how do you find yourself in this kind of a situation how do I make sure I get you out of there alive the succession of how questions how am I supposed to promise to get you a car if I don't know that she's going

2:28:56to come out alive you take what you want and make it the path to what I want hmm you know how am I supposed to get you in here if it doesn't benefit me also right so as soon as in any negotiation what I want is now a means of getting what you want then that changes the dynamic right away how does someone develop that confidence if someone break that into two parts yeah type of confidence in developing the confidence because there's a lot of empty vacuous confidence out there like I am like false confidence the false confidence and I you know this one guy we'll talk

2:29:39to about a possible investment in a company you know I pointed out you know how I thought their numbers were flawed and then the guy said well I'm confident I can make these numbers anyway and I'm like all right so we're walking away from you right now because you just told me you have confidence in you in the things that I just pointed out to you that were flawed instead of actually listening to what I said now the confidence that you spoke about a moment ago the way you lived it and what you said it wasn't confidence it was confidence in connecting and that's the critical pull with people

2:30:12with people connecting with somebody and the desire to connect with them which is also the whole point of the negotiation the Black Swan method is about succeeding with people not at their not at their expense you know getting better at negotiation not necessarily at the expense of other people in the point of fact making the other person's position better also um not hurting but them succeeding and you succeed right because you want to repeat business yes and if you hurt them they're not going to repeat right so connecting with people negotiating with people that's your confidence is a desire for that and a genuine sincerity and enthusiasm for it how does someone

2:30:54do that when they know what they want is not what the other person wants well and that's it only if it's short term gotcha and then then if it really gets at the risk of that you make what you want the path to what they want like uh you know I love seeing a Black Swan method showing up in the real world so of course somebody sends me a clip from Shark Tank and Kevin O'Leary got Black Swan okay tell me so one of our one of our go-to lines when somebody's giving you an unacceptable offer or something you can't deal with or something very difficult for you

2:31:32I used to say that you know to kidnappers how we supposed to pay if we don't know the hostages alive they want to get paid I got another hostage is alive how he's supposed to pay you if we don't know you're going to let him go they want to get paid I want to get the hostage out I'm making my goals their sequence so how am I supposed to do that as some form of how is a great leveling the playing field question when someone's coming at you hard so what happened with Kevin Kevin O'Leary did classic all right so this is my offer take it or leave it no

2:32:04discussion yes or no you got to answer me right away this is what I want can't talk to anybody else and the guy looks at him says how am I supposed to do that and then he says how am I supposed to agree to those terms and pay you back your money now O'Leary initially this started with a Larry basically saying like yes and no right or get out of my face you got five seconds to make a decision about or I'm out instead they hit him with a couple of high questions and there's a sequencing Larry wants his money back so how am I supposed to do that and

2:32:39protect your investment and so suddenly now all of a sudden now he's not angry but now he's not he's back on his heels he's trying to think he's seen him thinking and at that point in time since they've created so much space in a negotiation now Barbara Corcoran jumps in right now there's some time that's some people the 10 second window there's a yeah and a better deal is open and Kevin looks at Aaron says hey are you in are you out you know I thought you were out and and so then but now he's engaged in a full-on negotiation it's a back and forth exchange and these guys are still

2:33:12hitting them with like how are we supposed to protect your investment and give you those kind of terms and then finally they they get a great deal teased out that O'Leary is still not ready to jump on and Barbara says you know what I'll take that deal and she jumps in and she gets it wow so great negotiations about succeeding with people and creating the opportunity for good things to happen because until they did that Barbara Corcoran was out but they created some space they had some legitimate questions and suddenly Barbara says there's a great deal in front of me I'm gonna jump back in right what would you say is the

2:33:46most important word to use any any negotiation wow um not use but come to grips with no the word no um I know it's a great word to hear if you're trying to make the negotiation when I'm trying to make the negotiation because empathy is about what it is for the other side not what it is for you it's not about you So when you say no you feel safe I'm protecting myself I'm guarding my right deal or whatever the side of that I have I'm I'm not giving in to something I don't want right and as soon as you do that you're more willing to

2:34:31explore options okay no for this but maybe what about this this or this right right or I may say look does this does this look like a bad idea and you might say no it doesn't look like a bad idea but I need these things which you having feel safe will now tell me honestly because you don't feel obligated if I'd have said does this look like a good deal to you you might say yes it looks like a good deal but the erasing word I need these things but you're afraid if you said had said yes in the first place you're now on the hook

2:35:04so you're not going to be as honest with me about those things so coming to grips with what yes and no really means is one of the major first turning points in anybody's negotiation Journey as a great negotiator say that one more time come into grips with what yes and no really mean is the first major turning point in anybody's negotiation Journey because you think yes a success and it's not and you think no is failure and it's not why is yes not a success yes at best is aspiration only you know the first hope is not a strategy yes there's hope alone hope is inadequate alone

2:35:48and at best it's an aspiration most commonly it's counterfeit it's fake it's a fake yes when someone says Hey I want to do this deal with you and you say yeah I'm open to that or yeah that works for me you're saying it's not a hundred percent until the deal terms are laid out over paper and people are going back and forth or what do you mean well about 80 of the time I want to know what your deal terms are so I can shop them oh and if I've said yes you're going to lay those terms out to me and now I'm free to shop I'm gonna start

2:36:25playing you off somebody else interesting and that is such a problem in the business World recognize that a lot of salespeople are now taught to say are we the vendor of choice well you're we're going for yes there now if you're being played nobody's ever if they're playing you they're not going to tell you the truth oh yeah yeah they say yeah they're not going to say well thank God you asked because as a matter of fact I'm not we're just pumping you for information right we want free Consulting yeah like nobody's ever going to say that if they were already lying to you they're going

2:36:56to lie to you about that question too so this whole the seduction of yes because we love to hear it like yes the heavens part the Angels Sing The Sun Shines and that is such a Seduction That People exploit us regularly yes yeah it's interesting so when you hear a no or when someone Hears A no what is the first thing they should think in a negotiation well it depends upon uh heaven or came up like you know and never split the difference we point out no could mean not yet or Noah's no to these circumstances which doesn't eliminate other circumstances like no could be I need time to think

2:37:46like no was almost never rejection if if it's come up unexpectedly it's really it's a signal there's another path versus I gotta quit and go home that was failure I'm horrified with no and then it that ain't the case so we intentionally try to get it all the time like if getting someone to say no as a result of a calibrated question is so powerful you intentionally try to get people to say no potentially try to get people to say no that that may be the only thing that some people learn because I I get emails on LinkedIn all the time like hey I I use the phrase

2:38:26have you given up on this project and I my close rate is so exceeding everybody else that I on my company that I should come work for you and teach this and my thought is like I'm glad you're making a lot more money right now but you're just scratching surface and you think because you're comparing yourself to your peers who are in the middle of the bell curve that if you just moved up the bell curve one notch you now see all these people way behind you you don't have any idea how much more upside you have right wow what is the when you hear a no

2:39:06what do you think next in a negotiation well I always hear those that I want to hear you hear that you set it up yeah so is it asking for something so extreme first well for example um there's a lot of stuff let's say about the particular deal that I know you don't know okay I mean Ronald Reagan says if you're explaining you're losing but I got to give you some information at some point in time which is explanation so I'll say something like all right here's what I think you're up against is what I think the challenges are that you face are you against me sharing some ideas

2:39:46with you no right now I've just teed up you've just you got no problem with that now I I can't if I got 15 things I got to share with you I'm probably only get away with three because it's each one is a lot is good information you gotta absorb it I gotta let you think about it we got to go in small doses but I will always we are CDA call to action called The Next Step however we close out we always close out with a no you know me the Black Swan team everybody that we coach always close out are you against doing this are you against me sharing

2:40:21some ideas does this look stupid to you is is this a ridiculous idea like you can turn any one of your yes questions into a no question which is a yes sometimes more value really because I've heard in the past from people that says you know you want to get people saying yes yes yes leading into the clothes to a sale to whatever right right it's like getting them saying yes right but I'm hearing you say get them to say no right why is no more powerful than yes I think that uh that that you're what you're referring to is called the is momentum and I think that has been so overused

2:40:57yeah and not only overused but it's also been everybody's been they've been flim-flame they've been bamboozled you know they've been conned by that two or three times they're yes battered and then your problem is they feel like it's a trick or something or some stress you're not a trickster but you're engaging in the same methodology that the trickster used interesting you know the African phrase when you're bitten by a snake you're afraid of ropes oh yeah there are a lot of really legitimate people that are not trying to to flim-flop somebody but the flam flam artists use that one you know the the timeshare industry is a very bad

2:41:38reputation and some of the time shares are clearly very viable because I know people that have them at a level simultaneously there are a lot of people out there that are hustling and kind of people and there's a whole industry of that we've coached some of these people and getting people out of time shares because they got them on a yes moment now they got a timeshare that's going to bankrupt them now they don't remember exactly how that happened but it was probably this yes momentum so that they weren't conscious of it but as soon as they hear it again even from a close trusted friend

2:42:15they got burned and and they they get an instinctively negative reaction to the yes moment interesting so what's the no is it no momentum what's the what's like what is this process of getting to know well you know you're getting to know and you're getting you're getting the information you don't know typically triggers um implementation next steps got it but I know it's really a yes yeah it sounds like would you be against me sharing some interesting ideas for you no I'm not against it exactly right okay cool here's the next step and and probably if I decided against me sharing some interesting ideas for you

2:42:53you're more likely anxious no I'm not against it but I only got 15 minutes yeah awesome if I stick to the 15 minutes or less I get your undivided attention if I go over 15 you're going to start to get anxious because you're worried about your clock yeah and you know that that's the secondary thing like um if we set up an appointment is a ridiculous idea for me to take up 13 minutes of your time right not not ten not five but something in between right now I know I want nine minutes I gotta I got it timed out you know I I call this BDA lines they're

2:43:29always showing a plate uh-huh then I can kill for that anymore are they more efficient no they just changed the time they said they were going to show up you know you you I'm sitting on a Tarmac in LAX can't get to the gate we're there 20 minutes early the airline is hey we're here 20 minutes early we promised an on time arrival we're here 20 minutes early they won't let us get to the gate and you're sitting there thinking like this airport is so stupid this plane is big they saw it coming they got radar yeah we're not a surprise right right well point of

2:44:02fact the the airport said you guys said you were showing up a three we didn't open up this gate till three now you're sitting there on the airplane you're not mad at the airline you're mad at the airport but in fact the airline knew how long they were going to be early right but who gave you back time in your life I call you on a phone I say Louis I need I need 13 minutes wow you give me 15 because you ain't got 13 on your calendar I get done at nine yeah I'm like okay and you're sitting there like holy cow yeah you you just gave me back time of

2:44:36my day everybody else is taking it away now you love me next time I call you picking that phone right up he's not gonna waste my time exactly so I like these questions to get would you be against me doing this would are you uh what's another way you could say a no question it's usually like is it a ridiculous idea are you against our phone calls start with is now bad time to talk instead of have you got a few minutes right because you know where people feel safe when they say no they feel safe why is that yeah that's you know I get probably

2:45:13because we get Flynn flamed over yes and we've been flim flammed so many times that no gives an automatic feeling of protection you know and I talked about this because I told you I want to talk about how you interviewed some of your other interviews yeah Andrew huberman yes he's great like I've become acquainted with Andrew fascinating dude like hit first interview of him I heard on with you uh-huh and I'm like this is a great interview I gotta listen to everything this guy says fascinating and so then I catch him on another podcast I'm I'm falling asleep I'm like oh Jesus and it was awesome when he was on Lewis

2:45:56and now I can't I I this is a cure for insomnia and I actually went back and I compared the interviewing style really interesting and there's a very difficult skill in the Black Swan method also huh and you were really good at you're really good at several but you paraphrase really well and paraphrasing is is uh sounds simple dictionary definition but it keeps the conversation going in more digestible bites and I went back and I listened to your interview of huberman several times for I realized when you interviewed you were genuinely connecting and interested in him right and you paraphrase frequently because it's very complex ideas I'm like

2:46:48okay well let me simplify this so I can understand and other people can understand that's exactly right and it also helps you stay focused yeah you're a much better listener if you're focused on doing that now the other dude this interviewing Andrew he's trying to show Andrew how smart he is hmm so is you know as he he wanted to use all the scientific vernacular which Andrew likes to speak in very plain terms and he wanted to show how smart he was and then consequently I think Andrew's having trouble keeping up with the questions because they were so complicated yeah the interviewer was trying to show show off yeah for the

2:47:26audience I'm as smart as Andrew huberman you don't bother with that at all and you you were genuinely interested you're very conscious of your audience is well your audience sort of losing track and falling asleep like this other guy right right if I'm falling asleep then I need to you know reset the interview I need to paraphrase it so I can stay focused and present too something I learned early on thanks for the compliment I appreciate it and I think it it's done from an insecurity and a lack of confidence early in my 20s once I was kind of getting into the so you're saying you

2:48:01you were flawed you were very flawed human being yes after I got done playing arena football and lost my identity I was like what am I going to do with the rest of my life like this was my whole world professional football now I got injured I can't play anymore what do I do do I really have skills am I talented does anyone gonna hire me I didn't know right and I started going to these networking events in Columbus Ohio to try to meet people kind of these business networking events and I I remember was like wow these everyone's you know 5 10 20 years older

2:48:34than me they're all wearing suits I you know I have one sport jacket and a t-shirt right uh everything about this environment is designed to make you feel inadequate exactly everything and and I didn't have a job and all these different things and I was like okay what value could I bring to this networking event right I'm not as smart or talented or successful at these professionals and I remember being very intimidated and I said you know what I'm just going to go here and have fun and ask interesting questions and listen and I'm not going to try to act like we listen I'm just gonna listen to

2:49:05whoever's in front of me I'm not going to look around and see who else is here who's more powerful who's more interesting uh who's coming in the door I'm just gonna stare into someone's eyes not a creepy way but I'm gonna connect yeah connect and really ask interesting genuine questions and shut my mouth and I started doing this this first night and people and I did it with like a joyful energy right like a childlike curiosity I was just like really curious and I would and I would do a follow-up question tell me more about that tell me more that's interesting how did this happen with this

2:49:38and at the end of the night people came up to me like you got to meet Louis he's such an interesting guy he's so cool he's so he's so interesting but they didn't know anything about me I never shared anything about me I was so curious about them and I realized right then I was like oh to be interesting you have to be interested in other people yeah and you can you can build incredible Relationships by showing how much you care how interested you are in people and make it about them as opposed to making about you yeah and that was essentially what I started doing I said

2:50:08okay I'm just going to use this insecurity of not feeling like I'm smart enough lean into it use the things I am good at which is curiosity joy and passionate I'm playful and you know I'll deal with people and just try to make people feel connected and feel like their story is really inspiring which it is to me and that is kind of what I did with the podcast it's just like okay you're way smarter than me right you've got these skills this experience that I don't have let me be fascinated now I've interrupted you and I'm talking right now but in general it's like well

2:50:41tell me more that's interesting well how do I how can I use this in my life you know yeah and you you threw out inadvertently like a couple of different like superpowers um curiosity uh-huh like uh you know we got a block of instruction we teach called caviar the CK of yours curiosity it's about getting yourself in the right headspace uh Naseem Nicholas Tyler wrote a book anti-fragile he says curiosity is an anti-fragile characteristic and curiosity is a highly positive frame of mind [Music] um I said this guy's Ted talk so many times the Happiness Advantage Sean Acker yep he says you're 31 smarter and positive frame of mind curiosity is

2:51:20highly positive there's all cure every Everybody all these different places talk about curiosity as an Avenue to success for a variety of reasons you pick up more you're interested you pay attention the other person feels very connected with yes when you're genuinely curious playful another highly positive frame of mind Cutler talks about flow Stephen Collins says flow is highly positive even playful free adolescents walk around essentially in borderline flow all the time they're playful jumping around trying you know climbing on people you're just singing dancing you're just playing yeah yeah and so you take that attitude into a business environment and suddenly everybody else everybody there is going like hey this kid over

2:52:09here with this old sport coat yeah tennis shoes yeah is it most interesting character yeah right come over and meet this guy anybody could do that yes if they uh yeah if they go like all right so I'm an idiot and I don't have any credentials and I don't know anything and I'm unemployable because I have no skills let me go and see what happens I mean how are you going to go down from there yeah you can how are you going to embarrass yourself you're gonna be like all right so I am a goofball let me go in here and I'll be a goofball I'll be happy and and figure

2:52:39out a way to bring value in your unique way I'm curious what is the most frequent question word that you use who what when where why ah all right um all right so we only use questions to create calibrate thinking in the other person's brain um to start with like I'm not going to ask you a question get information I'm going to ask you a question to put a thought in your head for example when I'm working on a free upgrade to a suite in a hotel mm-hmm which I work on every time I don't get every time what's your success rate sex rate is probably in excess of 90 really

2:53:25which is also going to be it's going to be impacted by inventory right if there's no inventory and there's really no inventory it's they can't give you a suite they don't have but maybe they can give you something else or you know they're going to look at their inventory the first thing do they have any sweets a second how many nights in a row do I want to sweep like if I'm rolling in there and I'm almost always late because I'm traveling sure if they only got one Suite I'm staying one night it's after six they could give me that one Suite they can use up their inventory because I'm

2:53:56out in the morning and it's six o'clock at night they're they're willing to gamble that nobody's coming in and taking it now if I'm there for three nights I'm not getting that sweet if that's the only one they have because they got to leave it open so but I gotta ask in a way that doesn't limit me to the suite right because I want to get it I want them to feel good about the interaction so throw other stuff on the table like I'm gonna I'm in a hotel in uh in Dallas probably about a year ago I didn't think about it until I walked on the door

2:54:32um parking lot's full of Range Rovers I walk inside there are no shortage of women that are dressed to the nines almost all of them accompanied but I mean dressed to impress I get up to the counter and I do the sweet thing and the guy's like yeah we got a wedding party here uh Range Rovers expensive expensive outfits are they out of Suites more than likely right so I do the pitch he's like man you know we got a wedding party here they're taking all the sweets so I asked someone with the question is a ridiculous idea for you to make it up to me at the bar I think about the

2:55:15absurdity of that question yeah I'm asking for something for free that I never should have had in the first place and if you don't give it to me now you got to make it up to me yeah that's good hysterical that's great and so and God goes no no no as a matter of fact he comes around the counters and it gives me like five six free drink tickets at the bar and I'm like you know that's pretty cool I gotta leave myself in a position to get other stuff what's the go-to approach for anyone trying to get an upgrade well so first of all car

2:55:45upgrade you got to understand this is not about you how do they see it and so and then like it's an emotional Journey uh-huh and the and the journey is How It Ends and that how it begins um you know the last impression is lasting pressure I got to take them to this great place that's going to be three steps give it to me no and in a in a hotel I'm gonna be like look man I'm getting ready to ruin your whole day that's the first thing you say well you got to give me your ID you're right right right they gotta because then a

2:56:18card ID they gotta find your reservation right because they're going to be distracted they're going to be multitask so they say hey you're checking in yeah find a reservation if you if you got a points number you give them the points number you gotta wait for the moment and you go like I'm getting ready to ruin your day now and you got to stop and you got to wait until they tell you to go on now from a hotel from the hotel's perspective like they have seen every horrible thing you could imagine oh I'm sure you know do you have a goat in your bag and you

2:56:48want to do Satanic ritual sacrifice right which we are never going to be able to get that on the walls yeah exactly they've seen crazy crazy parties you know animal feces whatever it is everything so when you say that they immediately go to all this horrible stuff no because you're gonna you're gonna take you're gonna take them to a better place so you say first are you ready for me to I'm I'm getting ready to ruin your day oh man and you let that sink in and and then they go and then so now you guys you start bringing them out of it how are you going to say how are you

2:57:21going to sing to them if you're somebody who's asking for stuff for free uh-huh you're cheap right you're another cheap yes I don't self-centered traveler who's demanding and so I'm like I'm sure again it's not it's not a denial it's an admission a prediction I'm sure I'm going to seem like another self-centered unappreciative yeah demanding traveler who thinks the sun rises and sets on who wants something for nothing now you no longer have a goat in your suitcase uh-huh no ritual sacrifice is not involved you want some for free yes they immediately start to feel better and believe yes now you could you ask me about

2:58:14questions uh-huh so now we get to the question to create a state of mind the last obstacle is going to be how much trouble they're going to get into if they give me a free sweet upgrade now they there's a colleague standing there the I've done this while the boss was manager yeah I've done this literally where the manager was standing next to listen to this whole thing they may need to go find a manager um so how much trouble am I going to get you in if I ask for free upgrade to a suite because the last thing that's going to go through their mind that they have to

2:58:51reconcile before they make the move is whether or not they're going to get any trouble mm-hmm I lay this out in one hotel in New York and as a woman's standing next because you're almost always going to get it in front of somebody this works in front of other employees who works in front of customers you don't got to be in a vacuum and the boss jumps in and says because you asked nicely let me see what I can do oh she starts checking the inventory I want to be there for four nights and she says look if you can guarantee me that when you check out on Friday you're out of here

2:59:27before 10 o'clock in the morning I got an upgrade for you but I got I got late checkout problems on Friday morning you cannot have a late checkout wow and I'm like all right you got it yeah I mean I'll I'll come down in my pajamas if I gotta get out of there right wow okay so the three steps is I'm getting ready to ruin your day some type of approach of because what are you getting ready to do you're getting ready to give them some negatives yes and the second one is acknowledging that you're coming across as another greedy demanding customer that expects the world to open up for

3:00:03them and have something for free and then the third one is tell me the third step again how much trouble am I gonna get you in if I ask you a free upgrade to a suite now and this like this emotional journey and really um the point is always leaving people better than you found them and you know they've been through a lot like they want to help you if they would love to help you the first thing is do you appreciate what it is for them like this this Poshmark behind account you can yell that by everybody everyone you know and and and everybody's going

3:00:45for a free upgrade and you know I had a friend of mine who had this really entertaining one but the success rate was really low you know he's telling me he says you need to tell me if the president United States wasn't coming in here tonight you wouldn't have a suite and that Clark says of course rewards so what president ain't coming give it to me right that's really entertaining but it left the guy resentful like like one hotel I'm in where I get the upgrade for several nights an hour after I check into the room my plans changed dramatically I gotta check out the following morning I'm not

3:01:19staying two nights Now by and large they are completely entitled based on the terms of the contract to charge me for the second night right you know I've agreed to that I go down the next morning and I said look I am so sorry this is my problem this is not your problem because it was my problem and if I asked to check out without getting charged their first reaction is like look dude that's your problem bad planning on your part is not constituted an emergency for me yeah we're a business we got stuff to do too you screwed up why should we pay so that's what they're gonna think so I

3:02:01they're gonna think it's my problem so I've left them with really positive residue from the day before because they felt great about helping me out and I say look I'm sorry it's my problem I don't know what what is it what is it what is it my plans have changed I gotta check out I got I gotta go home and like oh no no worries no worries we'll get you what can we do I mean leaving because you even after the deal you always need some sort of collaboration from somebody you're gonna need something it doesn't matter what it is and even if you don't need something you want them

3:02:33to feel like they helped you they felt good about helping you right you know the hotel staff they realized that you could give them a great social media review as a result which is going to be really good for their business they don't want to get clobbered over the head they don't want well I'm an influencer and if you give me a free upgrade I I will broadcast it to all of my 75 followers on Instagram right that this is a great Hotel like everybody thinks they're an influencer yeah well they want that they just don't want to get clubbed with it so if they liked

3:03:06helping you just because something about the interaction instead of making them feel uneasy I mean to feel like they collaborated with another human being that saw their challenges then all that other stuff that you want to use as primaries now great French benefits social media commentary I'm going to put a video on my Instagram about how cool the room is or how great the view is or I'm in Downtown Detroit and how revitalized downtown Detroit is and it's phenomenal hotel suite that I'm in then I'm like I'll move in here this is so nice you know so I'll put that out there but you know I don't want to I don't want

3:03:46them to I don't want to use it against them I don't want to leverage it against them I want to I want them to feel like I did it because I wanted to and because it was Mutual yeah it's like it's like anything you could take something that's meant to be positive and twist it but I'll tell you this when you come from a genuine place people feel it they feel it when you are doing it with the goal to manipulate people people feel that too