You're Not Lazy, Your Environment Is Working Against You | Angela Duckworth

0:00virtue, greatness, success, it's so often it is situational, which is the concept of Angela Duckworth's new book. If you read Grit, great, it's a great book. I think this new book is just as important and it's really, really interesting. It's called Situated. The subtitle is Find the people and places that bring out your best. I'm a huge fan of Angela Duckworth's book. She's been on the podcast once before. She came here right when we opened the Daily Stoic studio. I was very excited to have her back and we had an amazing conversation. You know, grit is not a thing you're born [music] with or not born with it you have or don't have that

0:38is all or nothing. It is so much more complicated than that. And I think as a result, so much more interesting than that. Angela Duckworth is a professor at the University of Pennsylvania. She's the co-director of the Penn Wharton Behavior Change for Good Initiative. She's also a 2013 MacArthur Fellow. Her TED Talk is one of the most viewed of all time. She's entertaining, she's brilliant, and I think her work is really, really important. Let's get into

1:07it.

1:13So, I was driving to pick up my kids from school the other day and Pete Carroll called me. What? Yeah, which I was like, what is happening right now? Wait, are you BFFs no. I was like, how did you get this number? You know, like in a good way, but I was just like, a total surprise.

1:26Yeah, actually how did he get that? Wait, has he been on the show? No, I think so I spoke to the team like many, many years ago and You went to go talk to the Seahawks? Yeah, like Okay. in maybe 2015 or something. And so he maybe he got it he maybe he got it there and just never We never communicated in

1:43any way other than that. you? Well, he was he was working on his teaching this class at USC and he was asking something. But you came up like in the first like 5 seconds, [laughter] which I I thought was funny because you're here. He was like, I know Angela Duckworth says you can't teach grit. And I was like I was like I don't I don't know if that's what she said. I don't

2:01think that's the case. that? I feel like this is our like we've got like some like Laurel and Hardy kind of like thing. He knows I don't Well, anyway, that's a it's like I think it's not a good it's not a well-phrased question actually. I think the answer is less like complicated than the question. Well, I was going to put it to you. You can, right? I mean the one of that's one of the ideas in the book is that it's

2:22something you can cultivate, right? almost every feature of human nature is cultivatable / malleable, right? And then which are not the same thing because some things might be malleable, but you have no agency to cultivate it, right? But I do think that you can cultivate you can encourage or discourage. I mean, do you agree like like humility, sociability, charisma, wisdom? I mean, you know, these are malleable I think they're malleable and

2:47cultivatable. Yeah, and I can get why as a coach he would have a visceral reaction to any implication that these things can't be taught because like his job is to to teach and get these things out. I think this is it. So at the end of my TED Talk I said, I think accurately, "We don't yet know how to encourage grit in young people." And I think I tried to do something like too cute by half. It's like and we have to be gritty about like figuring that out. Okay, cut to black, right? Like that was like, you know, a 6-minute TED Talk. And I think he saw

3:18that because I I think he saw that and that's what made him reach out to me now more than 10 years ago. But we have had so many interactions including him coming to my class. So people should know that when I teach a class called Grit Lab to undergraduates, the implicit message is like of course you can cultivate it. I think you can

3:37cultivate it. It's funny cuz actually athletic performance is probably a good example where like different people are born with different amounts of abilities. Certainly you can waste that ability and and not cultivate it even if you have the necessary ingredients, and then other people can on paper shouldn't be able to do the thing at an elite level at all and find

4:00a way to do it. a way. Okay, but then let's go beyond sports, right? Because like human nature, right? Nature and nurture, like what does it I was going to say 50 years, maybe more of behavioral genetics tell us. So like I have my DNA from my biological mother and my biological father, and it is true that I cannot change that DNA. So let's call that fixed, right? And let's leave epigenetics aside because obviously the expression of your DNA does have some influence from the environment. But But we know from all of those years of all the twin studies that every characteristic that has ever been

4:35studied in addition to the DNA influence has environmental influence. So like right there, it should tell you that extroversion, uh religiosity, grit, and everything else about you, including height, by the way, like has an environmental input and you know, that's the part that like I feel maybe somehow like is hard to communicate, like the nuance that it's that it's both and that the more interesting I think the more interesting conversation is like assuming that you can change these things to some degree, like how does that happen, right? And like how stable it is and also, you know, how much of it is just like you're in a particular

5:17situation and your grit is encouraged versus like you are actually literally grittier over time. Like Ryan in 2026 compared to Ryan in 2021 versus like oh, Ryan's just in this situation and he's he's being passionate and persevering, but in that other situation, he's not. I think they're by the way both true. Like this is the level of nuance, by the way, Ryan. I think it's very hard in this like media environment, for lack of better word, to like get anybody think about something for like more than a

5:44sentence. Mhm. But like, you know, grit isn't fixed is like one sentence, but like I think there are more sentences. Well, that is I think some of the problems with yeah, the sort of short-form video culture and then also the AI. Just give me a summary or give me the argument. Right. It's like if I thought this thing could be captured in five paragraphs, I would not have written an entire book. Now, there are certainly people who are writing books because they gave a TED Talk and then someone gave them a book contract book contract and and they're they're taking an idea that doesn't have any

6:13nuance and giving and just in a way that It's like yeah, like taking a tire pump to it. most of the time actually with a book what you're doing is is having to explore this thing at length because length is the only place that it can be explored and explained. People forget books are technology, right? Like a technology is the application of knowledge to solve a problem, right? So like tables are technology, forks and knives are technology, light bulbs are technology, AI is a technology, but books are technology and I Okay, so after I wrote Grit, I first was disappointed that I didn't think the goal, which was to

6:50share something about the nature of human excellence, you know, I was disappointed candidly that I was like, oh, this didn't change as many lives as I thought. So then for a good 5 years, I cast about for a different way, like a different technology. I was like, maybe I should create a class, maybe I should create a video class, and I came around to the idea that the technology of the book is maybe not the only technology, but the reason I think we still have books is that this particular human innovation is a fantastic way to explore an idea with depth, but also like you don't spend

7:30your whole lifetime with the author, right? You're not like, okay, I'm so interested in I'm going to study and like not going to do anything else. But but a book is like an incredibly efficient medium for the author to explore an idea and to present it to you in a way I hope that's provide and then also for the for the reader and and I I think that's why like books have

7:50yeah. I think it's I think the second part is actually as important. So so the author has 50,000 to 100,000 or you know, in the case of a a big biography 500,000 words to explore the topic. Yeah. But it's actually the other side of spending not 20 minutes with an idea Right. 10 or 15 or 20 hours with an idea not consecutively. That is the right because very rarely does someone sit down and read a book from cover to cover. You're reading it on this airplane flight and then you're reading it before bed and then you're reading it at the beach and then you're reading it then you're

8:24discussing it in your book club or whatever it is, right? Like it's it's that you the author spent thousands of hours with an idea and it was distilled down into this thing and then that person paid for it and then paid for it again with many hours of their time. not in one sitting. time in between where it's just gestating and they're they're reflecting on and thinking about it and then ideally there's some other use after where you're discussing it or you're writing about it or you're taking notes from it or whatever. But but I I think it is it's not just a great technology but it it's your point is it books are a

9:01very under celebrated form of technology. They have lasted for thousands of years for a reason. It has evolved from little scrolls that you rolled up to you know, this which is maybe the best form of it to an ebook and audiobook but all of these are the fundamental same technological idea that's lasted for a reason. So last night I had dinner with Bob Bowman who I know you know cuz Philip would Austin Knight is that a term like he's an Austin Knight. He was telling me about the power of now by Eckhart Tolle

9:32which I was like I started that book. He's like did you hate it? And I was like I definitely did not hate it. I can't remember finishing it but anyway, so he tells me he's read it not once but I think in his estimate 10 to 12 times, right? And right, not all in one sitting and over years, right? And he told me about like the context of like why he read it the first time and like why it was so important. He remembered and like has internalized and continues to

9:57masticate over the thesis of it, right? Like now is real, the future is not, the past isn't but now is now. Anyway, the the idea that a book, I mean, you know, again, I I cast about for alternative technologies, right? And I personally haven't found one and I think you're right to point out it's it's not only a

10:17miraculous technology for the author. Like it's a great medium for you to actually think through and write down but also, you know, writing is thinking and thinking is writing. Like but also on the reader's side, right? Like it's a it's a marvelous, you know, It's portable, it's storageable, it goes on a shelf after you can come back to

10:33it, you can mark it. the hot ticks of it, right? Like you know, the like and also paper's a god damn good technology, right? Like paper's great. Like it's flexible, like you know what I mean? Like you can fold it. What are you like? So So anyway, I I in praise of books. So it's great that we're two books in the bookstore, which by the way, another technology that goes back a very long time. Yes, bookstores. Like you go, well, can't the algorithm just automatically select for you? It's like, no, actually the browsing and the covers and the experience, all of this Stoicism starts in a bookstore. I don't

11:04know if you know this story. No, no, tell me the origins of it. So the the founder of Stoicism is this guy as you know, he visits the the temple of Apollo at Delphi in Greece and the prophecy from the the priestess says, you know, the the good life is having conversations with the dead. He has no idea what this means. So many years later, he's in Athens in the Agora at a book he walks past a stand so cuz again, you need less space when they're little scrolls. He's at this book stand in the Athenian Agora, a bookseller cart maybe, and the bookseller is reading uh

11:37I don't know if it's sideways or this way, but he's reading um something from Xenophon's story of Socrates, Hercules at the Crossroads. It's a famous story between of Socrates, but obviously not written by Socrates. that Socrates tells us via Xenophon about about Hercules coming to this crossroads, and he has to pick the easy

11:53way or the hard way. Mhm. And Socrates is dead, and this is when Zeno realizes that that's what conversations with the dead are. The books are a way to to talk with the the past. And and so the prophecy makes sense. So, it's at this bookseller that he has this epiphany. So, that's why the

12:09bookstore is called the Painted Porch. Oh. We Is that why it's called the Painted Porch? Like literally? sets up shop at the Stoa Poikile in Athens across the street from this bookstand, which was a famous It was called It was a a like a long porch that had a famous painting on it. So, it's

12:24called the the Painted Porch. Ah, got it. So, I read this book called The Great Good Place. Did you read this? You didn't read The Great Good Place? I remember [snorts] actually buying it. It had a green cover and orange font. It was I had no fancy like no there was like something made in Microsoft Word or something. And it was one Remember those like bookstores where you'd be like a dollar a book kind of thing? So, I bought it, and it was worth more than a

12:46dollar. It um talked about third places. So, like there was, you know, your workplace, there's also your home, but a third place is this like kind of it's uh it's it's not as private as your home, it's maybe not as public as, you know, something like, you know, the the court system, but you're in a coffee shop, you're in a park. Basically, these third places is where people gather. Um and it has some level of intimacy, but also you're in society. And bookstores are a third place. Coffee shops are a third place. You know, in certain cultures like tea houses are a third place. And basically, he was saying like how

13:22important these physical spaces are to like the functioning of a society, to our everyday well-being, to our like growth and enlightenment. So, I read the book. It was really good, by the way. I recommend it. It's probably not in print. But, yeah, I mean, you know, obviously I've been thinking a lot about the situation, but I think sometimes these trivial details like are you holding a physical book? Do you prefer it like what are you holding? Like where are you? I mean, that that is what occupied me since writing the first book, Grit, which is, you know, like I think complementary to this idea that the

13:55situation matters. But, anyway, we can No, no, I'm so glad you said this because I I have I have thought about this a long time that it is is the maybe the primary form of technology. Like it's it's the technology that so much of civilization is based on. The analogy I sometimes give is like, you know, like when you watch like futuristic movies, they're always like like the doors are always like or you know, like it's like some super complicated technology for the door. And then here we are living in the future and it's like doors are just doors with a door handle and a physical key. Like I

14:25have a keypad for my house and it's a giant pain in the ass and like The batteries are always going down. Yeah, you're just like, oh, the door just like a door as a door has always been with hinges and a knob and a key. It's obviously gotten a little bit better over time, but it's still the same fundamental technology because at some level it just does the job about as good as you need the job to be done and everything else is kind of like fiddling

14:51at the margins. So, so like all that said, right? There is a lot that is changing. I mean, like one reason I persisted in writing this book, which was hell, is is that I felt like I don't think we're in a great situation. Like I know that there's some perennial things or like, oh, we still have bookstores and we still have books and like, look, we have doors and like tables and forks. By the way, I read a

15:12whole book on the history of the fork. It's another great technology. Because didn't we used to just use knives for everything and it was violent and Somebody was like, oh, wait, but you know, like, you know, it keeps thing thing is the fork's a great technology, right? And it's really resistant. that's all I'll say. Uh as somebody who's been raised with chopsticks, I have to agree. Um although I think if you're really good at chopsticks, like my mom can like pick up

15:30a raw chicken with a pair of chopsticks. So, it has its um advantages. But, I don't think we're in a great situation. Like, I don't think the world is the same as it was 10 or 20 years ago. And so, I want to say like, yeah, like a lot of things that have persisted are great. And some of the things that are changing

15:48are not great. Of course. But, do you know the analogy like Chesterton's fence? Do you know this? No, I don't even know who Chesterton is. Uh G.K. Chesterton. G.K. Okay. See, G.K. Two initials, you said. of those people that you see him as quotes, but nobody actually reads anymore. Exactly, who was he? Except for like conservatives. He's very popular to religious conservatives. Like the the the thinking ones. But, anyways, there's this and this is a a metaphor that they love. It's called the the Chestertonian fence. And the idea is like, okay, you walk into a field and

16:17there's a fence. And a liberal or progressive or somebody who's loves change in the future goes, "What is this fence here for? Tear it down." Yeah. And then a conservative goes, "No, no, let's find out what this fence is for. Maybe it's for a reason." Yeah, maybe we should keep it the way it

16:32was. and there's this idea that traditions are solutions to problems we forgot about. Mm. And I think that is a a similar thing with books or norms are a great example of this where you're like, you don't remember why we do it this way, but we do it this way because it's better. It was a solution. It is a solution. Like and there's so many underlying technologies that we take for granted that cuz we don't think about them as technology. Like freedom of religion or the separation of church and state is a technology that was designed not just because it's morally correct, but because we kept murdering each other

17:07over distinctions that don't [ __ ] matter. And it was impossible to have a society where people saying, "My god is better than your God and my God wants me to kill you and we're the ones that are in control of the church. This is a technology invented by the way basically in the United States by I'm forgetting his name. Whoever this is the founder of Rhode Island. He was because we we think about the pilgrims coming to America fleeing religious persecution. They did to a degree. But it was to set up a religious hegemony

17:43of their own. Right. They they did. It was not it was not in the spirit of tolerance then. It was just like we're trying to escape you are not being tolerant of us. But but but basically like we have the correct religion and we should be dominant. Like they wanted to come here and enact their own religious tyranny over their people. And if you read about the original colonies like it wasn't fun

18:05to be on the wrong side of that thing. There was all these insane punishments and they were super micromanaging everyone's life. But it was and again I'm forgetting his name. Maybe Roger Williams. The guy who wrote that book The Great Influenza whose name I'm also forgetting wrote an incredible book about this specific founder who don't he's like no no no you can believe

18:23whatever you want here in Rhode Island. And that was like a that was had some basis in English law. But that was the technology that actually allows America to escape this sort of trap of sectarian violence and it allows the energy to to go like hey you manage your own interior spiritual and religious life. The state is about creating a functional society and the technology of government not like religious control and about the celebration of God. And so again that's a technology like we kept murdering each other. Like the idea that like the police can't arrest and stop you without due process is obviously a a moral

19:02inalienable right but it's also a technology that allows innocent people not to be harassed by the state and it has the you know, another great example and there's a whole play about this in the ancient Greek world like the technology of a jury of impartial people deciding a case. Right. There's this this famous cycle of plays

19:24about it goes back to the Trojan War. You have a great Odysseus story in the book but like basically talk about Odysseus all day long by the way. Agamemnon sacrifices his daughter to win the war then he comes home and then his wife and her lover kill him and then their son kills her and then he escapes and he finds refuge at the temple of Apollo and Athena is chased by the Furies cuz

19:50you're not allowed to kill your mother. He's chased by these angry sort of gods. Anyways, the this the final play in the trilogy Orestia again, I don't know how to pronounce these things but the final technology in the play is like they they're like let's have a jury of 12 people decide you know, whether he's like I killed her it was just and the

20:11the gods are like no you can't do this. Anyways, they have this trial and this trial finds that he was in his rights to do this and this stops the cycle of violence because now he doesn't have to be killed and so again, it's like oh we have this problem which is like you do this and then I have to do this and then your kid has to do this and then and we can't have a society and so someone was like okay, what do we do and we invent

20:34these things. And then you know, now people will talk vaguely about the rule of law or whatever but it's like we invented these things because they were addressing a problem that was holding society back from flourishing. Okay, so this may or may not be the right characterization of Ryan Holiday but like if you are a modern-day Stoic, how do you think about and you know, I think from our previous conversation if you recall like I don't know a lot about Stoicism. I'm not trained as a philosopher and I don't read philosophy for fun. So, I probably have a, you know, like two-dimensional cartoon version of stoicism. But, when I wrote

21:12this book about the situation, which includes like modern-day technologies, agile technologies, you know, judicial system, freedom of speech, like the situation is everything, you know? It's like this wooden table and this microphone and, you know, my bottle of water over here, but it's also like I'm sitting across from Ryan, like it's also I'm living in a particular culture, norms do or don't exist, the norms that exist are part of my situation. When I think about stoicism, I think, perhaps wrongly, about like what you can do to change what's inside you, right? Like your reaction to the situation, your response to the situation, but not the situation itself. So, do you

21:50agree with my thesis that agency extends to the outside world and that we do have agency over the situation? And what would the Stoics say about this? Oh, I I totally agree with the premise. I think it all comes You're saying I'm Stoic. I would I would say it all comes down to the situation, right? Like it comes down to this It comes down to the situation and by that I mean, have I set myself up to be the person that I want

22:18to be in this situation? in that though? So, maybe maybe like educate me, right? Because like I think the the sort of like cookie, you know, the fortune cookie, like, right, the one-liner version of stoicism, which hopefully you have like, you know, more patience to like, you know, get to like two or three line like Is it Isn't it sort of like oh, I mean, that's what people say, right? Like to be Stoic is to not complain about the situation, not to worry about whether you're set up,

22:42and in fact to make the best. Well, I just think like, okay, there's this famous passage in Marcus Aurelius where he talks about waking up early in the morning and he's like, but it's warmer under the covers, do I want to get up? Why should I, right? It's like the debate that everyone has every morning, right? And and yeah, to a certain degree, it's like, hey, you got to get your ass out of bed. That Do you have the willpower to get your ass out of bed? But I think you don't have to be a genius to Is that what happens at the end of his

23:06like meditation on that? He's like and then you have to get out of bed. He's basically like, "Look, you have a job to do. People are depending on you. This is important." He's like, "Like animals can do it, you can't do it." But I think if you zoom out a little bit and you go, "Okay, but what time did you go

23:20to bed last night?" Right. And and so look at a certain point and I think a pro is able to do what they need to do not perfectly, but regardless of the situation. But then there's another element of being a pro that is like I'm going to set myself up to bring my best self to this situation. So I I think it's both and I the idea like the Stoics are talking about this 2,000 years ago with in some ways like a a almost unbelievable understanding of behavioral psychology, but it's it's intuitive. And the idea that we wouldn't have added to our store of knowledge about this and

23:58realized that hey, it actually does come down to decisions you made before this decision. And they would be on board with that, right? That is like they couldn't not be, right? Because they were too wise, right? Like it's sort of like any observer. So have you ever read the William James I've read much more of William James than the Stoics, but he also writes about getting out of bed on a on a cold morning and the way his little passage ends is that you do something other than will yourself, right? So I would call that like box three. If you gave me like the three box

24:27model, I'm like, okay, box three is your response. Box two are your thoughts. Box one is the situation. What William James said is that like instead of just willing yourself, like get out of bed. In box two, you could think about what you were going to get done that day. Like he's like once you start thinking about the things that you need to get done that day, you will want to get out of bed, right? So change your thoughts to change your response, right? You

24:49don't have to like just force yourself. And I think to me, I mean Ryan, I'm not exaggerating when I say that I really only wrote a book about this, which it was 10,000 times harder to write than Grit. And the only reason I the major reason I persisted, probably I persisted in part cuz I'm gritty, but a major reason is like I don't think there are a lot of books that tell you like, "Okay, but before you rethink you know, your like why don't you just change the situation?" Like, "Yeah, what time do you go to bed?" Or, you know, so many people that I studied, like it's very

25:21intentional how they've decorated the space of what's within 3 ft of them. And like yet the first thing they see when they wake up is for example, I mean, some people will find this a turn off, but like a goal sheet. You know what I mean? Or like a quote. And to me, like

25:35that's changing box one, your situation. If you change box one, your situation, that will change box two, your thoughts, and then box three, your response. When Bob Bowman wants to change his box two thoughts to be about the present and not about the future, and not about the past, he could say, "Well, I'll just think that the present is now, you know, the power of now He could also just have a hard copy of The Power of Now on his desk so that like he could just pick it up. And or just, you know, that his eyes will light on it. So like to me, I I'm

26:05kind of like shocked that there aren't like a thousand books on the situation, but I I haven't found them. No, I think to me it all comes back down to this thing that Aristotle said. It kind of just explains everything. So he he said like it's wrong to think of the virtues as like a thing you have or don't have. He said it's like a thing

26:23you do or don't do. Mhm. And then so he believed everything was training It's in the It's in the action. So it's like courage isn't like, "Oh, that's a courageous person." It's like, "Did they take a courageous action right now?" Mhm. Right? Like Mhm. It's a is inherent in the action taken, not inherent in the person. That's what I'm

26:40saying. Yeah. So you're not it's not, "Oh, this passed to you through your courageous father via the bloodline." Or or like because you were courageous once you're courageous forever. at the time, right? Because that was the historical thing, right? Yeah. But he's saying that they're verbs and and not nouns, which I think is the the right way to think about it. But that also gives us the idea of training, right? So So like, are you training for

27:02this thing or not? It comes back to malleability, Yeah, he's saying like a brave soldier is not that different than like a talented woodworker or a musician. They just practice this thing. But I think the other thing it sets up is which which you're calling situation and situational agency is like, yeah, how did you Did you rest last night? Like that that courage could come down

27:21to like, did you have a good breakfast? Because you're drawing on something inside you. And I think like to me, I know I am kinder and nicer when I am coming at life from a place of like I've taken care of myself than when like I'm tired, I'm frustrated, everything is a disaster like I have a a deeper well to draw from. And so like again, you might

27:45go like this person is nice or not nice. You talk about the fundamental attribution bias like we go like, oh, I saw that person in that moment. And this Aristotle's point about it it's whether you do it or not, but like you're not only how you acted in that situation. You have a continual You're always in the situation over and over and over again, and it matters like what are you bringing in that situation? Society might say, oh, that person's an [ __ ] because they they filmed you in one moment having a meltdown at the grocery store. Yeah. But like actually what matters is like how you're talking to

28:17the next person and the next person and the next It's like what matters is the situation in front of you and what resources and willpower are you bringing to it and have you set yourself up to be that way? And have you set up So So I think what you're saying is that Aristotle was trying to get us not to make the

28:36fundamental attribution error, right? And to say witness one cowardly act and call the man or the woman a coward. And I agree, of course. I, by the way, find myself committing the fundamental attribution error all the time, even after writing about the fundamental attribution error, right? And and I think that means that it must be so strong of a bias to say that, you know, when when my husband so, you know, I did write quite brutally honestly about my, you know, marriage crisis, right? And so, this was, by the way, with permission and encouragement from my husband cuz I was like, you know, you've written and and I seems like you

29:18have an easier time writing than I do, Ryan. But I was struggling for some personal example that could make clear how imperative it is to not just try harder and and get nowhere and then try harder still. And my husband says, why don't you write about our marriage crisis? Something I didn't quite elaborate on as much as probably I should have is that when I said to Jason, like, you know, in this incredibly stressful time where we were in a bad situation, and but I just thought it was like a bad marriage. I was like, oh, you know, this isn't meant to be. And I didn't recognize that the

29:52situation was against us, and if we change the situation, I would realize that it was a great marriage, but terrible circumstances. Something that I didn't say enough is that when I told Jason that we should split up or try or, you know, test out what it would be like to be separated, I think I was committing the fundamental attribution error because my like 100-hour a week frankly, like, you know, like like you said, you know, sometimes, you know, you're your your best is like it it it wasn't it wasn't a great version of Jason, to be honest, and he was not happy. Um, I projected onto him this kind of like,

30:29you're a melancholic person, like, that's who you are. Like, you are going to be like grinding, but like white-knuckled and grimacing and miserable, and that's who you are. And I I just have come to the realization that I can't be married to that person, but really what I couldn't see, and again, I I probably should have said even even more than I did, is that I was just assuming that like that is and was and would always be Jason Duckworth, and the imagination that he asked me to have, I mean, he somehow saw that, well, of course he was him, so maybe he just wanted to assert, he's like, this there

31:08is a there is a range. Like, I have I have many Jason Duckworths, and like, if you would just help me and help yourself and like have some patience, like, like, there is another me that you could be with. And so, basically, that fundamental attribution error, you know, having studied it in graduate school, even now, like, having written about it, I find myself like slipping into sort of like, oh god, that person's incompetent, or like, oh, this person's really like narcissistic, and like, but I think I'm just committing the fundamental attribution error again and and basically ignoring how important their

31:42situation is. No, I think that's a a really important piece of marriage advice, and that's what was my favorite part of the book. But the idea of going like, hey, not like I don't love you, but I don't love this version of you, or I just I don't want to be married to this

31:56version of you for the rest of my life. Like, I just can't do this. Not I can't do you, I just can't do this forever. I might you and you might even be able to say to them, hey, I can do this for like another 6 months, but like but like I I this is not what I want of my life to be with this person who's this way. You know, and going like, if you cannot be that, I'm all about it. It's just and I know that isn't you cuz that's not the person I started with, and I see flashes of it not being that way. Like, it's a

32:24different conversation than like, I no longer love you and I love this other person over here. I just want to give him I agree with you, and I wish I had agreed with you like earlier because it really was like very hard for me to see. You know, there was this like cognitive narrowing that happens when we're stressed and unhappy and I really think I like, you know, the aperture was like closing to like a pinpoint and I could only see one way and I I I do think the imagination, like what would it be like

32:52if we were in a different situation? Like, you know what? I I think that I have to like write this down on a post. I I've actually taken to writing I was going to get everything made on Etsy, but I couldn't figure out how Etsy worked. So, basically, I've been writing quotes down on 2 by 2, you know, Post-it notes and then just like taping them like at eye level and I feel like I need to like install a new little billboard about the like just sort of like, you know, it like the situation is all you can see if you can see it at all, but to

33:22imagine a different situation is really a leap that I think I need to get even better at. I think that's interesting because like you've probably experienced this with some of the sports people you've interacted with is it's like that's what they're all about. They're about like, let's take this quote and we're going to put it on a t-shirt. Let's take this quote and we're going to put it on the wall. And it there's some there's some element of it if you're not in that world, it feels a little like cheesy

33:44Yes, it's very mockable. Yes, and and then you go like but they're obviously doing it for a reason and it's like these people are getting paid millions of dollars. They wanted more than any what? They need a reminder? Like, you tell the story of like the wolves which one you're going to I I've seen that on the wall like

34:00The good wolf and the bad wolf. Yeah, in a locker room, right? Like Right. and you're like, it's not a real story or anything. I'm sure it's somebody made it. It was probably started as like a chain story as a chain email or something. It's, you know, probably doesn't trace its way back to some classical thinker

34:14or something. I did try to look it up. I think it is I think it's like more recent than 1999, but [clears throat] right. Anyway, the point is is that it's yeah. Yeah, and you're just like, oh, but no, they need it over and over and over and over again even at that level. I I've been thinking about this my wife and I were talking about this with our kids were like, do I have to tell you again?" And it's like, yes. Like, if if Aaron Judge needs to be told it every day and he's getting paid hundreds of millions of dollars,

34:40The answer is yes. then probably I can tell my 9-year-old like where the shoes go again or like why we don't do X, Y, or Z. Like, they just need more reminders. so all right, two things. One is the generalizable truth here. I mean, you know, the laws of physics are inescapable. So are the laws of psychology. And one of the laws of psychology is that we are reactive to our situation. You know, you think like,

35:03"Oh, what did you think about all day?" Well, you thought about what you wanted to think about. Your attention and your thinking is so much more like bottom-up situational. Like, why did you think about coffee? Because somebody had a coffee cup out. Like, why did you think about, you know, this quote from this author? Because that book just happened to be on a desk, right? I mean,

35:22obviously this is how advertising works. I just think the more profound insight is that we think of ourselves as intentional, more or less like top-down directive. Like, that's what makes us human. And we are much more like dogs and cats as sort of like, you know, reacting to things. So, that is I think

35:36the generalizable truth of the matter. And then, in terms of the like, okay, application of it. I was staying at my friend's house. There were three kids. And these are two very high-achieving people. They have very high-achieving kids. And I noticed, since I was just like walking around the house looking for whatever I was looking for, an outlet, that there are quotes like not at my eye level, but at kid eye level, right? And they were the kinds of quotes that you would expect to be in a house of like very high-achieving people. It's

36:06because that mental like that box, too. It's like, I want to be thinking like positive optimistic thoughts or I want to be like remembering my values or I want to remember the virtues that I hold most dear. Like, if you want that, freaking decorate your world. And it's not um I know it's mockable, but Ryan, it's not just like athletes. It's CEOs. it's like pastors, it's like moms and dads. I feel like the psychologically wise people do not leave it to their own like memory, which is fallible, or their own intention, which is fleeting. They just like it's just a common sense thing, right? Like, you

36:46know, stores have their hours on the front like it's a good technology. So, like the situation is a technology and I I I feel like sometimes people think either or. So, the So, the message that, you know, our thoughts determine our behavior, I think has been internalized by modern culture. I think much more than any civilization before us. Like, we recognize that our thoughts shape how we feel and they shape what and also that those thoughts are subjective and

37:12also that those thoughts are malleable. I don't feel like we've like moved upstream enough to say like, "Well, where do the thoughts come from?" Well, what what can I do to make those thoughts the thoughts I have? Yes, you look at your ruin and they're like, "Why did they have this statue here? Why was this inscription?" They were in a way when when mass culture was harder to communicate, when they couldn't send an inspirational text to

37:36their kid or whatever. Right. The all the parents had to get together and and build a statue or, you know, inscribe in a monument a poem, right? Like, Right. how how were they supposed to communicate the ideas and the values of their society? It was in, you know, the freeze on a on on an acropolis or whatever,

37:55Right. right? Like, that was there. Like, because they they couldn't watch a video on their phone about it, you know? Right, which, you know, I have a preference for like, you know, that which is inscribed in stone over videos. But, wait, can I ask you a question? I don't have a tattoo. I feel like I'm like one of only, you know, a few people now in the world who don't have a

38:13tattoo. Like, why do you have tattoos? Do you feel like it's basically the same thing that in some ways this is like, you know, Angela has two by two like, you know, post-it notes because she doesn't want to get a tattoo, but like like is are these reminders for you? these are I mean, they became book titles cuz I wrote books about them, but these are the these are the sort of the main values that I try to live by or build my life on, and they're they're helpful reminders to see on a I mean, look, I think when I first got them, it was a little like every No, no,

38:42everything I'm just saying everything recedes into the background. Mhm. If you've I mean, I've had them for What do you mean everything recedes into the I'm saying when I first get the got the tattoo, it was more a visible reminder that it would catch my attention. Now it's like part of my body in a way that

38:57I maybe catches my attention less. Mhm, okay, right, right, right. Like it's you've habituated a little bit, but not entirely, right? Right, right. And but that is exactly what that is it has to be a reason. I mean, maybe there are other reasons, but my office is designed with reminders of the things that I want to see, and my

39:13house is designed that way. I ask you? I'm very interested. I'll show it to you before we go. But yeah, I mean, I just think about Yeah, what are what are quotes, what are ideas, who are people that inspire me. I have like paintings, I have all statues. Every time I do a book, about an idea, I try to get some kind of historical

39:31momento of that idea. Really? To have out just to like put yourself like just to like of memorialize and then have a physical manifestation of that thing because like obviously I'm not reading my own book as a reminder of the ideas. So like for me it's like, oh, this is this is that thing that I spent all that time thinking about, and this is

39:50evocative of all of that. would be an example of that? Now I'm really curious. Yeah, so I did this virtue series, and so I have one kind of like physical reminder of each one. Like the discipline one, the sort of hero of that was Queen Elizabeth, so I have a signed Andy Warhol print of Queen Elizabeth that's like up up the stairs on the way to the office. Then for courage, de Gaulle was the main figure, so I have a free French battle flag that has blood on it. You know, so like just it's like, okay, this is the embodiment of

40:16everything in that book. Okay, so right. So it's not just, you know, like NFL quarterbacks, right? Like it's like it's like anybody who wants I mean that that to me is like the power move. And what are the things about the modern-day situation that you are about? So we talked about well, constitutional amendments that like you and I both think are really important, but like I mean, do you wake up at night and think about like social media? Like what are the things that you think I think there are a lot of macro trends, if you will, where like if you let them take you where they like you're

40:49not going to live a happy meaningful life. So like what do you worry about? that I see for people is they wake up and they are on their phone before they've even gotten out of bed. And so what happened that night, what text they got, what news of alerts came in, what emails they got, like their mood and the direction of their day is determined by someone or something else. So instead of waking up and going, "What do I feel like doing today? What's important to me to do today? What was I thinking about

41:19last night that I want to tackle today? Like what person do I want to be?" They're like "Are you [ __ ] kidding me?" You know, like that's like how they're starting the day. And that's their those are their thoughts, right? So you pick up your phone, right? That's your situation, and then whatever's on your phone which you you don't control, right? Like it's your feed. And then and then you and your the thoughts lead to then you respond and then what which is like a very

41:40path-dependent thing. the moment you woke up instead of being proactive and big picture or what I think that's a for me a huge one is like how are you starting the day? Because Yeah. I do What do you do? Well, you know, I was just going to say and look, I know the research on it is a little bit whatever, but like I do believe we have a finite amount of sort of willpower or focus or whatever. And the idea that you're going to be frivolous with that in the morning to me

42:05is a huge mistake. like foolish, right? I think that would be Let's talk about that research because I think you're probably I think that your instinct that your attention and your like free will whatever like your ability to like you know, I'm going to do this like I think your intuition that it's it's finite is actually probably grounded but like there's some nuance but let me tell you about some data that I just collected that I haven't even published yet. So Gallup organization does a poll for me. We we we survey kids 13 to 18 and we also surveyed the same time their parents. So I'm like processing this

42:44data from this one question that I asked when you go to bed, where do you keep your phone? Either within arms reach or in the room but not within arms reach or another room all together. By the way, there is another category which is I don't own a phone but like nobody checks that off.

43:00Like yeah, who do you even at 13 right? Like you know, Americans have phones. And by the way, across all socioeconomic levels, like it is no longer a technology which has a socioeconomic gradient. Basically, just everybody has a phone. So first I like look at the teenager data and I'm like wow, like something like seven out of 10 like 68% of teenagers sleep with their phone within arms reach, right? And then you know, you allocate and then I look at the parent data and it's even more. It's like 75% like three out of four Americans. Now, many of these adults I'm sure like will tell you they don't have

43:32a problem like it's not something that they care about like you know, but I think the reality is that it is the last thing they interact with, right? The last thing they see, the last thing they touch and the last thing that like changes their thoughts, right? And then it's the first thing when they wake up and again, I'm sure a lot of people are like yeah, but I need to look at my calendar like I check the weather my alarm room doctor, sure. You know, like [laughter] Well, where do you where do you keep your phone? Like where do you let your

43:57kids keep their phones? My kids don't have phones cuz they're Your kids don't have My oldest is nine so they're all younger than I thought. Okay, got it. So so we're not quite there yet. But my phone is the other side of the bedroom cuz it is my alarm. Yes. Yes. But, like I can't touch it and I have built a practice that I don't check texts or emails until I'm well through

44:20the morning. Yeah. Um Is it worth on your nightstand, Ryan? Right? Like you could still say like I have a habit of like not checking and then you know, but like it was intentional to put it across the room. Yeah, of course. Right. Okay, got it. So, like to I have a book on the bedside table and I try to read a few minutes before bed every night. And I have my journal

44:38there. Yeah. Cuz that's an activity I would like to wind the day up with. I mean, I would find when it was next to the bed, like I might get up and go to the bathroom, like not even trying to check it, but I do it's like oh, someone sent me a text from a different time zone and like my

44:54day is ruined before it's even started. Like I might have 3 hours of sleep left. Right. But, I'm I'm going back to that sleep in a bad mood or I'm not even able to go back to sleep because I saw something that So, yeah, look, the stoic idea would be like you should be able to get any news at any time and not be affected by it. And maybe someone Is that the sort of like that's the ideal, right? If you the Buddhist through the stoic is trying to be able to handle everything with

45:20equilibrium. Mhm. But, there's this other stoic named Publilius Syrus who said that like, you know, rivers are easiest to cross at their source. Mhm. And like to me it's like hey, I would rather just avoid Yeah, right? Like just be smart. To me it's like Incredible Hulk versus 007, right? Like Yeah, you can be really strong and like you know, walk through a wall or you can be like James Bond and like very cleverly like make temptation go away. So, I want to say something about what you know, this ego depletion sort of like is self-control limited resource, like what about attention? Um and then also talk about why it is. Like

45:51you know, when I say the psychological laws of human nature, you know, the laws of psychology are as ineluctable and as eternal as the laws of physics. Like I really mean it. So, when you wake up and you're cranky or you, you know, you say something you shouldn't have said, like you are enacting something. Now, it doesn't mean you have free will, because of course, if you understand the laws, you can act differently, and okay, but here here's what I want to say. I think your intuition that when you do something that requires will, right? Um and it requires attention, that it does feel somehow like it's a limited

46:20resource, right? And I guess you're saying that partly because you feel What is it that like next you have less of it or you kind of like just at that time it's divided? Well, I read this thing that Toni Morrison talked about where she was saying that like it's very important as a writer that you know when you're at

46:39your best, when you're most inspired. And so, like and you have to set your day up around that. So, like Yeah, just to clarify. For some people this is 3:00 in the morning and because it's like at the end of the day, and for other people it's whatever. For some people it's a busy coffee shop, for another person it's like dead quiet

46:54in their kitchen. got to know when you're at your best. at your best. And she was saying that for her, she had to do all her writing There was something about the sunrise that was inspiring and important. She wanted to be writing as the sun rose. And then the other part was she wanted to get all of her writing done before she heard the word mom for the first

47:12time. Oh god, I forgot that she was a mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and she was a single mother and she had a day job as an editor at Penguin Random House or then Random House. I didn't know that. And so, like she to write her novel, she had to effectively Yeah, yeah. But you can't squeeze it in after you've She had to do it like for the bottom of the waterfall. It's going

47:30to be at the top of the waterfall. All right, right, right. Cross it over at the front at the front. Exactly. So, so I think it's a kind of knowing when you're at your best. And I was actually just talking about this with someone this morning. I went running with Alexi Pappas, she's an an Olympic runner. And I was talking about how I was asking her if she had the same experience, but like I found that when I was younger, I could get more out of my

47:50worst self. Mhm. Like obviously it was always better to be my best self, but like But was a little like a range. You were like, yeah, I have some give. Right. I was like, I could get up and For running, for example. Yeah, like I could get up from the when I was 20, I could get up from the Thanksgiving Day table and just run 10 miles and like be fine. And now it's like if I eat poorly that morning, you know, whatever. Like now it's it's just

48:14a more finely tuned machine or whatever. And I just found that like especially writing, like I can't do it past a certain time. Mhm. Or or just if it's not working for you. Can I Can I ask you where you do it? Like In my office here. But I can do it in other places. But again, it's like I just know it's like to get the quality that I want, the environmental and the the situation is more important than

48:38Than it was before. Than it was before. Right. There was more range. Like sleep, running. I remember like eating a loaf of bread with I think peanut butter and then going for a run in my like early 20s. Right. Everything has to go right for me to like, you know, not have a disaster happen. So, this intuition that, you know, yes, we can, you know, do things that are harder, pay attention, and, you know, like it it it it it can And by the way, it does feel exhausting. So, that's you're on rock-solid research that that when you do something and you don't want to do

49:07it, essentially a lot of the things that we consider to be virtuous are acts of self-control in that they're delayed gratification. Honesty is not always the most rewarding thing in the very, very moment that you're being honest, kindness, generosity, and discipline, etc. But I think the the key here is that when you are able to change the situation even in micro ways. So,

49:30there's a paper that just got accepted. It hasn't been published yet. It's looking at 1 2 and 3 seconds of delay. So, we're not talking about like delaying gratification for like 10 years, like I'll be healthier, I'll have better relationships in something on the order of like 2 to 4 years, right? We're just talking about like seconds. You know, the nature of human nature is that we're extremely averse to like any form of delayed gratification. and you know, we did this with like website loading where basically for example, you take like people are trying to code and they're on this platform, they're trying to learn, you know, code online. And

50:02like if it just takes like one or two seconds longer, just like then they just like go off and like do something else and like don't finish their lesson. So, I don't think that says something about like those people being lazy. I think it says something about the nature of things and I do worry that, you know, we're talking about the situation. I asked you like what do you think? You're like, "Oh, well, people pick up their phone." And then you know, they're off. I do feel like attention and intention are so shaped by the situation that we are increasingly in a culture where like it's always

50:33trying to be grabbed by something or someone. And if you're not countercultural, like if you don't say like, "Okay, because of that, I'm going to put my phone across the room. Okay, because of that, I'm going to delete this app. Because of that, I'm going to like, you know, make sure that I spend time with the I'm going to like make a post and note to remind my like then then like the I think there may have been past historical times where we didn't have to do so much work to get

50:57situated. I think that's right. And we I would say we we have a society that doesn't have a lot of empathy for how hard it is to be other people. Like I was listening to this podcast. Annie Lowrey just wrote this book about time tax. She's basically saying the way that bureaucracy and inefficiency taxes individuals, particularly poor and lower income people. And she was just talking about like some of these like forms you

51:17have to fill out to get like medication. And yeah, so the ones that we think everyone deserves are much easier than the ones that we have moral judgments about. Yes. Okay, that's fair enough. if if you're a single mother and you're trying to get welfare, because as a society we judge that person, we make it really hard. And I was just thinking of bringing my freshest, best self, I have no patience for forms. Imagine, I just tried to imagine like I'm poor, I'm struggling, I'm working two jobs, I have kids. I can barely get Netflix to work

51:46after I put my kids to bed. [laughter] Like let alone having to fill out this complicated form that it was designed to not be intuitive, to discourage people to do it. And just understanding that like the environmental conditions, like you talk even about like your privilege in the book, is just not even being aware of how your situation might be different from somebody else's situation. And I don't know, I was just

52:07thinking about that as well. you this. Like so if empathy extends not only so we usually define empathy as like being able to feel what another person feels, right? And and then there's something that psychologist sometimes take pains to distinguish, which is like perspective taking. And that's like seeing what the other person but anyway, we get it. Like putting yourself in their shoes, right? So you know, if this book has a thesis, it's like okay, well then also trying to

52:29understand like their box one, right? Like what is their box one, right? Like and how could I not commit the fundamental attribution error? I'm just curious. I remember having a discussion with Melody Hobson, who's like an investor and like very wise. And it was on the topic of empathy. And she was actually saying, you know, I think that like through fiction and through film, right? Like that is where we are able to put ourselves in the shoes of other people. I think that is right. But I I wonder what your thought is on empathy. Because I think you're right about our lack of empathy. I wonder if

53:02you have any thoughts about whether that is like a bigger problem today than it was 10 or 20 years ago. And what do you think the limits of empathy are? Like can you really appreciate I mean, how far can we go like in a visceral way, not just an intellectual way, to understand other people's situations? Well, I think there's a couple things there. I think one, yeah, obviously there's some limits to to empathy and there's that German word Umwelt, like how can you truly understand what it's like to be a bat or a bird or another person? Like you really can and probably can only vaguely

53:36understand what it's like to be another person from different circumstances. So I think there's some limits there. I think empathy can also be limiting, right? Like if if all you have is empathy, you can kind of I've noticed that my wife is much more empathetic than me. Sometimes like I'll be like, "Okay, but ultimately you're just letting this person off the hook at some level where you're like you're paying them to do a thing and like it kind of doesn't matter why or how or where they're coming from." Like spend all the time thinking about how they feel and they go like, "Okay, but also they didn't do

54:04Yeah, and or even with your own kids you're like, "Oh, they're having a hard time." This It's like, "Okay, but there are rules to society that you've got to figure out how to do." And if if no one ever holds you accountable to them because they're always thinking about what There there can be problems. But I think you have to be a sociopath to look at our society and think our problem is that we're too empathetic. Like you know Elon Musk has made this thing that's

54:28like the West has suicidal empathy. We're too empathetic. Blah blah. It's like No, almost all of our problems in the world are the lack of empathy and and a lack of understanding of the conditions of society though it sounds to me a version arguably what you were saying about your wife though, right? You're like okay, but

54:46be a problem. compassion or something like that. think at an individual level we can sometimes struggle with that or individual situations. Right. But it's like look, why is Iran acting the way that it is? Sure, but it is also a totalitarian fascist religious state that is insane. You know, like you can understand why they think what they think and not go like they're the good guys, you know, like you can also understand your own country's problems and responsibilities and you know, all of that and and still go, "Okay, but

55:18it's not acceptable. Okay, but you know, Okay, right. You know, I actually wrote a version of this book that had actually, you know, much more ink spilled about who I think is like the intellectual proprietor of this model, right? And it's not that he would say he's a monopoly on this cuz honestly, Ryan, I know psychology and like every psychologist I know understands that the situation leads to thoughts and thoughts lead to response. Cognitive therapy, that's like your thoughts leading to your response. Like behaviorism, that's

55:44like the situation like it's all there. Habit is like situation directly. So, it's not provocative. It's not necessarily revolutionary, but James Gross, who's you know, really I think the person who deserves credit for this, you know, framework cuz it's so simple. The thing that I love about it and for me cuz I only discovered it like halfway through, you know, my career as a psychologist,

56:05is that you could take anything, right? Like let's take, you know, welfare, right? You're like, okay, so, you know, this this mother is like applying or not applying, you know, she did or didn't get this job. So, that's that is box three. Like that's her response, right? And then with some curiosity and hopefully, you know, not too much judgment, although to judge is human. You like you just have to ask like, what were the thoughts that led to that? Okay, so that's box two leading to box three. Just cuz there are all

56:32thoughts. I mean, for anything we do. What you eat, what you drink, what you say, what you feel. And then just to ask like and here's where you overcome the fundamental attribution error. You say like, instead of just saying like, well, she's the sort of person who like thinks those thoughts, all you're doing is simply

56:47saying like, well, there's another box. Like I have to fill it out. And that is the situation. That is the objective situation physically and socially. And to me that like helps to explain so much and it it it at least gives you a tool, if you will, to overcome what I do agree with you just like this profound

57:07lack of empathy at so many levels. Yeah, Ayn Rand wrote this book called The Virtue of Selfishness and there's this famous exchange with Christopher Hitchens where he's just like, I'm not sure that is a thing that anyone needs help with. Like like, [laughter] you know, like like like By the way, doesn't everybody read Ayn Rand and for like one week you're like, oh, you know, she's got it all right and I'm going to be Howard Roark. Yeah,

57:31yeah, yeah. you and then you think about it for 5 seconds and you go, "Oh, what would that look like if everyone thought this way?" "Oh, wait, everyone being like even more selfish than they are. Okay, just kidding. I thought that was a good idea, but yeah, I I was like, you know, for a week I was an objectivist. I was like, You're just laying in the back, you know, there's like a an emotional immaturity to the lack of

57:49Like you you think you figured it out. It's Oh, the problem is I'm being too caring or whatever and it's like Yeah. That's not the problem. That's not like That's not the problem. Um so, there's like I think there's an emotional immaturity there. So, I have a bunch of traveling I'm doing through the end of the year on Daily Stoic Live tour. I just got back from San Diego. I like to stay in the places that I'm staying. Well, I like to book places on Airbnb so I can be like a local. I not only do some of my best writing, but I learn about things that I

58:18wouldn't have known otherwise. When I was just in San Diego, I took a walk along the water, I bumped into someone who recognized me, and they told me about their favorite local bookstore, which was like two blocks from where I was staying, and I never would have known about it if it wasn't for that encounter. It was cool to me to think that I have helped facilitate that experience for many, many people coming to Austin over the years. The first house that I bought in Austin when my wife and I first moved here, we would list it on Airbnb, and it helped me make the transition from my corporate life to

58:45being a full-time writer. So, if you're going to be away, you should maybe think about listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn extra cash while you travel, can offset the cost of your trip, or maybe even go towards whatever you're doing next. If you've got travel coming out, Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think, and you can find out how much at

59:05airbnb.com/host. Which actually was something I was going to ask you cuz you In the beginning of the book, you talk about Montaigne, who is fascinating, and he's basically saying that like in different situations, we act differently, and that someone could be courageous in one situation and cowardly in the other. And he's basically saying it all comes down

59:22Self-conception, of course, yes. what I wanted to say because to me, giving yourself more situational agency or being better at what you're talking about in this book comes down to what his life's work was, which he basically invented, which is like the idea of self-awareness. Like the idea of sitting down and thinking about like, what do I think? Why do I think it? Why am I this way? What do I like? What am I trying to

59:41be? invented the essay. I don't know if he invented like self-awareness though. other philosophers before Montaigne were like, why is the universe this way? Why are other people this way? They studied human He was the first one himself. Yeah, he basically retires from public life and he's like, what do I know? His His fundamental question is, what do I know? And then he's like, I think his other questions are sort of like, who am I? And what matters to me? And like, that was new ground. Like, he's coming out of the the Reformation and into the

1:00:13early days of the Renaissance, right? Like where I guess it's me the historical context like, I've read Montaigne, but actually I am no student of history. I mean, he's a contemporary of Shakespeare. So it's not It's a long time ago, right? Like, and he's kind of like, yeah, why also talking about religious tolerance. This is like where we're figuring out, oh, it's a problem like to not be able to have different people believe different things. I guess I'm just saying like, I feel like what Montaigne figures out is like that there's a lot of interesting self-exploration you could do as other people are exploring the universe for

1:00:48the first time. I mean, he asked the Yeah, he just asked all these really interesting questions. the universe within. I mean, he was a world-class psychologist. And by the way, have you ever seen and I haven't seen it in person, but I have seen photos of his like of his study and his his room like with the quotes. Talk about quotes like you know, yes, and not on two by two posted notes of course and like I don't believe that he had tattoos, but like just engraved into wood like into the rafters, right? And again, like you know, you think that somebody with the mind of Montaigne

1:01:14would have already memorized these things, but he chose to be able to see them on a daily basis. So the the essays that I wrote about there I haven't read I've maybe I have read all of Montaigne, but I'm not an expert on Montaigne, and he did write a lot of essays. But, he wrote several on the idea of the inconstancy of the self, right? That there was a Montaigne, I mean, he particularly was observant of his own anger, right? And there was an angry Michel de Montaigne and a calm Michel de Montaigne. And to me, his insight goes almost all the way where I want it to

1:01:46go. So, he gets pretty far and farther than most of us, which he says we like to think of ourselves as the captain of our ship, but we are carried. We do not go, we are carried, right? Carried by the current. So, yes, we have some sense of like I am the master of my soul and the captain of my feet, but like really, what ocean are you going to choose to sail on? And like, which current are you going to pick? Because that is going to determine really where you go. The reason I say, Ryan, that he doesn't go far enough is that in all of his

1:02:14writing, I didn't come to a passage where he said, "Therefore, be very intentional about the oceans and so forth." Like, he just was like, you know, the situation is like the ocean current. And I I just want to say that wait a minute, maybe this is just, you know, I am a student of Marty Seligman. I will never stop believing in agency. I don't see that he's gone enough to like he he he hasn't written enough or didn't write that I could see

1:02:43about how you can change the situation. I think that's right. I mean, it's it's interesting like he's primarily writing these essays at first. Like, one of his biographers says he's trying to catch himself in the act of thinking. That's what the essays were. He's sort of writing to think. And the idea of like, "Hey, I'm going to write these essays and then publish them." That wasn't really the intention until kind of

1:03:02later. them in his lifetime? He does, and and then he edits them again. But, it was again, he's writing for other Montaignes, right? Like, he's writing for the smartest people in the world. Shakespeare reads them, you know, the king reads them. But, like, I do think one of the the good pressures of commercial publishing, which you and I exist in, is that you don't get to sit in your study and just kind of like whimsically explore ideas. Like you do have to go all the way. Like what does this mean? What are you saying? What are you saying plainly? And also, could you please help me helpful? Right? So So

1:03:35maybe you would argue that if you had a larger audience that he perhaps would have gone farther. And I think some of the people who have written after him or written about him have have gotten there in a way that he didn't have to get to as a person who's also like there's something about, you know, people go like whoa whoa cuz I'll sometimes I'll come out and do things or I've been course and they'll be like would Seneca do this? And it's like Seneca lived on an estate tended by slaves. Okay? Like he he he did not have to think about anyone. There wasn't an audience he was

1:04:05writing to. There wasn't value he was having to provide. There was a there's just kind of a intellectual This is intellectual for intellectual's sake. This to some ancient philosophy and some of that kind of even Renaissance thinking. Like this is for the elite of the elite. This is for people who know. This is for people like me. I'm not writing for an audience that is in a way that Shakespeare was. Shakespeare is

1:04:30like peasants to the queen. Right. Everyone in between. Right. And and I think much more Pixar, if you will. Yes, it has to operate on multiple levels. Like right? For like everyone. Okay, but there's something else that's different. I would conjecture, and it's purely conjecture, that situational agency has increased over time. I mean, there I told you I'm no student of history, but you know, there was a time where, you know, you're a blacksmith because your father was a blacksmith and you're a woman and you have to be the wife of a blacksmith. Like, you know, you can't change where you live because like you live in this village and it's impossible

1:05:02to get anywhere. Like, okay. So if it's broadly true that situational agency, our ability to change our circumstances, to set us ourselves up for like the thoughts that we want and the behavior that we want. Arguably 400 years ago there was less of it, right? So maybe that's another reason why he said like we do not go, we are carried, but he didn't say like, "Oh, but you can like chart your own course." Because maybe it was not

1:05:23possible. No, I think you're you're totally right. His father maps out his whole life, you know? He's He has He has like a Tiger Woods-esque father. Montaigne did? Yeah, but in a good but he in a good way. But his father a good Tiger Woods father? like so do you know Montaigne's life story? There's a book I'm going to give you, but Montaigne's I mean, I know he's like a nobleman who like retires and then just like writes

1:05:43essays. But that's all I know. I'll give you a a glimpse into Why does Montaigne have empathy in a time where there's no empathy? His father believes is comes from this rich family. His father sends him from birth to be raised by a peasant family in the village that they to have empathy with the up around regular people and to have affinity and affection for the people that he would in the future be

1:06:06responsible for and have to lead. So his father was unusually wise. yeah, sort of travels in part of like diplomatic or economics or I forget exactly what his dad does, but like basically is like fascinated with child development and he basically Montaigne's childhood is a giant educational experiment. Yeah. Then then when he comes home, Montaigne doesn't learn to speak French until he is like seven or eight because he literally never heard it. After the two years as an infant in this peasant family, he comes home and only Latin is

1:06:39spoken in the in the household. And so he basically grows up in antiquity. Like he grows up in Rome. Like they only speak Latin. So he's this expert on Latin because he grew up as if it was a real language and not a dead language. And so there's all these different other ones I could bore you with them, but like his he has a weird childhood that is shaped by his father's understanding that like you're learning and being taught to do things to be of service to other people. It's a very weird childhood which very creates

1:07:10unusual men. Yes. I mean, you could maybe define, you know, you write a book and then every hammer is everything's a nail. But, I mean, you could argue that all of parenting is essentially like shaping and selecting situations, right? Like, what else are you going to do, right? There is no like telepathy. Like, you cannot like will your child to do something the way you can will your

1:07:31elbow to like, you know, go up or down. So, yeah, you know, I'm not saying like every parent gets everything right. Like, definitely not saying that or that I did. But, but that was his father, right? Like, like that that was parenting to him. That was being a father to him. I wanted to go to the thing you said before that though, which is I think agency is a technology. It is a belief that was not widespread in the ancient world or even until relatively Like, I just think it's interesting the Iliad and it's like there's no

1:07:58agency. Yeah, like you have to do this. Yeah, the gods. But, also, yeah, as you said, it's like, "No, no, my father was a blacksmith, so I have to be a blacksmith. It's in my name. Like, my name says my profession." Or I'm The idea that you could move to another country and just live there, you know, like all the kinds of agency and change that we take for granted today did not exist. And even just the idea like that an individual could change the trajectory of history in a positive way, that an institution like slavery could you could have an opinion that it was bad and then you could make it not

1:08:35exist. it. That you can change it. Totally. So, as a student of Marty Seligman, I have to say that, you know, his last 10 years have been on agency and it is a way like as a psychologist, the only thing he's ever studied, right? So, he got his PhD very early. I think something at like 24 or something ungodly. Like, he was a very quick PhD,

1:08:57but also he went to college early. So, Marty's been studying agency from day one as a psychologist and his latest thinking reflecting the last decade of his work is that the arc of human history, right? And to the extent that there has been progress, which he argues there has been, right? And some would argue not, but I agree with him. Like, you know, you just kept If you look at the really grand sweep and you don't like think about like little wrinkles here and there. This is a much kinder, more peaceful, verdant, you know, or thoughtful society than we did, you know, 100 years ago, 2,000 years

1:09:26ago, 3,000 years ago. And Marty would argue that it is all agency, that agency is the prime mover of everything, as opposed to, you know, is a I would just add to it it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because if you define agency as the belief that you can change, right? Psychological agency, what's inside your head, situational agency, what's outside your head. The self-fulfilling prophecy is that if you don't believe you have agency, of course you make that happen, right? Because you actually don't make anything happen, right? If you do have agency, it's not that everything always works out, but like, yeah, you you act. And then the future is shaped by your actions. So

1:10:07So that is Marty's, you know, that I think, you know, Marty's 83, there may be another chapter where like he has another great discovery, but I think he would argue it's like the great discovery of his life, that like all of human civilization is founded on psychological and situational agency. Yeah, I think one of the mistakes we made culturally and academically was getting rid of the great man of history

1:10:30theory. Marty's a big great man of history proponent. Yeah, when you explain everything systemically or structurally Which makes it like inevitable and like actually diminishes like individual will. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're living in a time where like you have to just say like, uh, definitely one person can change the world. Well, and the problem with that the the people who debunk this theory is that they will also tell you how all the bad things in the world are the result of a handful of people. Right? It's like we [laughter] we we all agree that bad people can make the world worse. And then and then and

1:11:03there's argument about whether good people can make the world better. on the side that like yeah, individuals do shape the world for better and also for worse. Well, I have so many books I want to show you. So where do we go next door? do it.