Burned Out in Public Accounting? Here's How to Thrive | Qualified Opinions | Ep. 3

0:00You know what nobody puts on their resume? Survived seven busy seasons without completely losing myself. But maybe they should. Because here's the thing about public accounting that nobody says out loud in the recruiting pitch. The skills that get you in the door are not the skills that keep you whole once you're inside. And for a lot of people, by the time they figure that out, they're already running on fumes, wondering why the career they worked so hard for feels like it's slowly eating them alive. Now, most people's answer to that is leave. Get out. go to industry, go anywhere but here. But tonight's guest, she stayed a decade in big four

0:35and not just survived it, but she figured out something out about how to sustain herself through it. And then she took that and built it into the culture of an entire organization. She's got a VP title, a toddler, a board seat at Second Harvest Food Bank, a coaching certificate, a competitive dance background, sabbatical travel across 13 countries, including safaris in Rwanda and Tasnia, and a Calcpa woman to watch nomination sitting in her inbox right now. And somehow she seems like she's actually doing okay, which in this profession might be the most radical thing of all. So, if you're white knuckling your way through the grind and

1:11calling it a career, this episode is for you. Because thriving and surviving, they're not the same thing. And someone finally figured out the difference. Three episodes in, the regulation, the quality, and now the human behind it all. That's right. It's time to get qualified. What's up everybody and welcome back to Qualified Opinions, the show where we give the audit community the content that they actually deserve. Real talk on quality, culture, and transformation without putting you into a compliance coma. I'm Drew Carrick, the rapping CPA, your host. And alongside me is Chris Vanover, founder of CPA Club and former PCAOB director. Chris is legally required to be here, but I'm told he's

1:54excited about it. Chris, are you feeling good? This is going to be a good one, Drew. Looking forward to it. All right. Uh, next time we'll have you come prepared with a joke to tell. Fair enough. Always room for improvement. [laughter] Today's guest is Ellen Celestio, senior vice president at CPA Club, mentor, process designer, and honestly one of the more thoughtful people in the profession when it comes to the intersection of career longevity and human sustainability. Ellen stayed in the big four for a decade, and she didn't just endure it, she learned from it. and she's taken those lessons into how CPA Club operates today. 4-day work

2:29weeks, no billable hour pressure, real structural choices around well-being that aren't just perks on a careers page. So, today we're getting into all of it. People, culture, work life integration, what burnout actually looks like before it has a name, and what it means to build a career in this profession that you'd actually want to

2:47have. So, Ellen, welcome to the show. Thank you, Drew. I'm happy to be here. So, I want to kind of jump into your career path because I think we're going to learn all about you over the course of your kind of career journey. And since this is a people episode, it's very, you know, career oriented. You had a very nonlinear path. You had very intentional pivots and you kind of figured out, you know, what big four actually teaches you if you're paying attention. So, you know, you moved across audit, national training, advisory, now firm leadership and like it's not a straight line. So maybe take us through that sort of career

3:23progression and and how did you know when it was time to pivot? Like was any of that actually planned or did it just kind of fall into your lap? Sure, I'm happy to take you through. So I guess to to start I started my career as a intern out of I guess I was in in college still at at the time and after that I did receive a full-time offer. So I started my career in the audit practice uh at one of the the big four and I did the grind you know all the way from associate through my senior associate years and I would say it was a

3:57pretty typical busy season experience. Um and then after I did some years in in audit I really began to question okay what is it that I really like about my job? What are the the parts of my job that I gravitate more towards? Um, and that was the people side of it and the mentoring side of it and the coaching side of it. So, as I got some of those opportunities, for example, um, as you pro progress in the big four, sometimes they'll ask you to teach courses to the incoming interns or to the first year coming straight out out of college. And those were opportunities that I

4:34naturally gravitated towards because I've always enjoyed teaching and being in in front of a classroom. Um, so as I began to teach more of those courses, I was like, man, how can I do this as part of my job on a bigger scale because this is the part that I really like. Um, and that's when I decided to look for different opportunities within my my

4:55firm. Um, to see how I can can do that. And one of them actually was it was at a training they call it train the trainer which is basically where all of the people who are going to be training or to to to be teaching a training course it's required for them to attend. Um and at this train the the trainer course it was taught by a bunch of trainers who actually put together the training content. So, I did a lot of networking when I was at that um training class and I was trying to understand what they do on a day-to-day basis and I was really

5:30intrigued by their group. So, I kind of reached out and I was like, "Hey, I want to know more about about your group and it turns out it was a group through the national office. Um it was their national office learning and and development group." So, I tried to look on the internal job board basically to

5:45see whenever there was an opening there. Um, and thankfully for these tours, they provide um two-year tours where you can kind of get in, get out, and get a different experience within um a different, I guess, part of of the firm. I think Chris, you did a tour too, if I recall correctly, or did something. Yeah, I was uh I did a tour up in the audit transformation program at PWC back in the day, working on the proprietary audit software methodology. And I think I'm going to have to one up you here Alan because I actually believe I went to a train the trainer of the trainer

6:20session. Oh wow. So there you go. That even exists, believe it or not. Nice. I love it. I love it. Um so yeah, I guess to um to go back to the the tour experience. I was looking for a tour experience specifically in learning and and development. And I think one summer um they were taking applications. So I was like, "Okay, this is my time. I'm going to apply. Um I got the support of some of my local office um because typically they want um to know that you know you're a strong performer and that that it would be a good fit cuz basically you're applying for a job

6:54within the same company. Um so I got support there and I went through the application process and even though it's in the same firm, you still have to interview, you still have to give your your your resume. So it's a pretty competitive process. Um, and thankfully the stars all aligned and I was able to do a two-year tour two-year tour um, in

7:13that learning and and development group. And there is really I I really found like, okay, wow, there's a group that does this for their full-time job. Um, and not only do they get to create the trainings, but they also get to deliver them as the subject matter expert and kind of be the go-to people for for those types of trainings. So, it sounds like was there ever a point in your mind as you were kind of growing up where you're looking at different careers where where a teacher was a a potential option? Because it sounds like you have

7:41a this this knack for for educating. You know, that's actually a really good point. Uh, back in the day, I actually really wanted to be a kindergarten teacher. Um, cuz I actually really love kids, too. So, I think that I've always gravitated toward towards teaching. Um, I wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, but unfortunately there was a seed planted in my mind that it might not be challenging enough for for for me. Um, I'm not sure how true that that would have been cuz I think whoever's dealt with 35year-old kids um [clears throat] is is godsend. Um, so I've always gravitated towards teaching and actually a fun fact about me, Drew, is that I

8:20used to teach group fitness classes at a local gym in my community. um twice a week and it was probably between anywhere to 30 to 60 students every single week per per per class. So not only do I like to teach in an academic setting but also in a fitness setting. Wow. Yeah. And I and the I I I have such a respect for people who have the ability to teach because it's one of the things where where I've had a lot of people ask me

8:49how how can I do this? How do I do that? uh whether it's teaching pickle ball or how to make content or how do you communicate more effectively in the workplace and a lot of it I just feel like I just know how to do it but I don't know how to convey to somebody

9:04else here's how you could also do this. So there is truly an art to building a syllabus and conveying a message that uh I I see the value in in why training the trainers would be a valuable training. But it's interesting because I think even when we think about the big four in particular, it's structured in a way where seniors are typically the educators of the associates, right? And yet none of them are really going to

9:28training to learn how to educate others. There may be a little bit of supervisor review module that they might take, but think about the dynamic of that because I remember when I was at PWC, when I first did my very first search for recorded liabilities, I got really no coaching other than here's a box, start to look for it, look through it and figure it out. and then he left. And then I was like, "Wow, I'm completely sure I screwed that up looking back on it." And then two years later, I'm out there actually trying to supervise someone through that AP surge. And

9:56that's when it finally clicked with me. So I do actually think we learn more in educating others than actually just receiving the education at times. That that takes me back to uh in high school after I would learn something in bio class. I would go to dinner and sit at the table and tell everybody about how eating this food is actually the end portion of the uh respiratory process and it's the last particle, you know, and that still sticks in my head because it was one of those things where like you said, uh teaching it really does help you do that. And and to your point,

10:23you never have 10 accountants at a Thanksgiving dinner, right? Yeah. Yeah. Everybody will be teaching everybody everything. Uh [laughter] but but to your point, the not all of the best just some just because someone was a stellar senior and a stellar manager doesn't necessarily qualify them to be as you we we often assume, oh, you're the best, so you should learn from the best. But the best isn't always necessarily the best at teaching. And we see a lot of people leaving, you know, big four and trying to escape that when things get hard. And maybe it's just because they got it they got dealt a tough, you know, round of of

10:54managers who they had to work under and they never had the opportunity to learn everything that they could. Some people get lucky and some people don't. It kind of becomes a little bit of a a tossup. Uh but Ellen, you stayed for a decade. So, you know, did you have good, you know, managers along the way that kind of helped with that? Like what made the difference and what did that chapter teach you that you sort of still carry today where you went through that

11:14journey? Absolutely. And I think you kind of alluded to it just right now, Drew, is that some people do have the opportunity to learn so that they can become high performers where some people are kind of left behind because they didn't have people who would sit down and actually teach them how to do something. So the so by the time they're a senior associate and they have to teach someone else and kind of supervise work, they're in a tough spot because no one ever taught them how to do it as a first year or or a second year. And now the managers are looking to to their seniors

11:44and saying like, "Hey, you have to teach these people." And they're like, "Well, I I don't really know how to do it myself, so how do you expect me to to teach others?" Um, so I would say one of the reasons that kept me so long in the big four is I really do think that I got um blessed or uh or lucky with who I guess raised me and in in the big four and the teams that I was on because I think that the teams that I was on there was always a very good learning environment and I felt safe to ask questions and therefore since I did ask

12:16a lot of questions I felt that I was knowledgeable enough to teach others. So when I became a senior, that was actually one of my favorite roles on the audit team because not only did I have the opportunity to do some of the more complex work, but I also had the opportunity to teach um the work to the associates and assoc and the experienced associates. So for me being a senior, it was actually probably more enjoyable um than being an associate or even stepping into the manager role. Um, and I think it's just because I was taught well when I was a associate or an experienced

12:50associate so that I could thrive when I was a senior and I took and I think another thing that helped me too was I had the opportunity to be on a lot of different jobs. So some people they get stuck on one big client and they're there literally from January 1st all the way to December 31st working on the same client. And I think that while the continuity is great, I think it takes away a lot of learning opportunities from other clients and how things are done on other clients and how things are done on public companies versus private companies verse versus emerging growth companies. So I was blessed with a

13:24pretty wide variety of clients that I that I got to work on. I mean, I worked on anything from, you know, a small startup that was still trying to bring their product to market to very mature public companies who've been on the market for 30 plus years, right? Um, so I kind of got a good flavor for a lot of different types of companies and because of that, I did get to work with a lot of different managers and seniors and partners as well. So, I think that really having a variety to your workload helps you grow in a lot of different

13:54ways, too. I'm wondering from both of your perspectives, from experience at, you know, especially at the big four, the there's always this tough balance, like you said, you felt like you had a safe environment. You were able to ask questions. There's always this balance of when when are you asking too many questions and when are you asking not enough questions. I'm curious if you guys had any sort of like rule of thumb that or or or or a a mindset or a philosophy on that that that maybe somebody who is a staff would find to be useful or even a manager who's trying to effectively manage might find useful

14:30because there's always, you know, we don't want you spinning your wheels. So, you're spending two hours trying to figure out how to how to, you know, tackle a workpaper and instead of doing anything, you're just trying to figure out what you're supposed to be doing. At that point, you know, you should have should have asked type of thing. But you also don't want someone who the moment that they don't know something is just you raising their hand and they're constantly just pestering you, you're spending all day answering questions instead of actually getting anything done. So was there a a an approach or a paradigm that you guys had for how to

14:58balance that? Chris, did you want to spotlights on you Alan here? Okay, let's start with you. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say it's a delicate balance for for understanding and I think it really depends on the person. Um, but for me, when I stepped into to that senior and manager role, when my associates were very quiet, I got very nervous. I was like, "Okay, they've been very quiet. They haven't

15:22asked me a question in a full day. They're either really in their work or they really have no idea what they're doing, and I need to step in." So, I always try to keep the lines of communication open, saying, "Hey, if you have any questions, let me know." Um, and for me, I felt so much better as a senior and a manager when I did receive questions because that means that they were actually going through the work and they were coming into obstacles where they didn't know what to do or they just wanted a little bit more guidance. Um, so I think from being on the receiving

15:53end of questions, I'm so appreciative when I get get questions because I'd rather have someone do it right the first time instead of them finish something all the way through thinking that they're doing it right and then it's and then when we get to the end it's like okay maybe we should have talked about this before so that we didn't have to to to redo the work. So there is a fine balance of I guess trying to coach someone through something and not holding their hand every single step of of of the way but also letting them struggle just enough so that it gets their brains turning and

16:25really allows them to think through what the question is that they need to ask as well. It's good stuff and I you know I think for me I'm big with uh two letters A and A. Uh my two kids are Audrey and Austin and obviously work in accounting and insurance. So everything I do is ANA related, but I think it comes down to approachability and adaptability. One

16:47being you've got to be approachable. They've got to know that they can come to you and actually ask you questions. And then secondarily to that, I think it's being adaptable as a mentor and as a coach. It's not always your way or the highway. It's ultimately yourself being able to adapt to how they want to communicate with you. So I would always try to ultimately understand their preferences around how they best communicate. Some of them are, you know, ultimately just want to sit down and talk. Some of them want to ultimately do it through an email. They want to do it through an instant message. Finding a

17:16way to meet them where they are, I think, is critically important to cultivate that learning environment for them. It reminds me a little bit of the suggested approach to what as somebody's kind of elevating their career, how do you communicate effectively with leadership? Right? Because that's that's a a bit different of a challenge than just, you know, reporting to your manager and asking questions. and they always have that that breakdown where it says, "Well, come with here's here's the problem and and the kind of prompted question, right? Here's three possible avenues or

17:48solutions and here's my recommendation." So, it kind of allows you to get all the information across, but also still work towards towards that growth. And kind of what Ellen you were talking about is you want to be struggling enough that you're working out, right? Like if you if you just if you don't lift any heavier weights every time you go to the gym,

18:07you're never going to get any stronger. So you do need to push it even if it's marginally. That's the only way that you're going to grow. If if it becomes too easy, then there that's where the growth sort of halts. So you you sort of described a senior retreat at PWC um as this like inflection point and in a moment where you you know something shifted in how you understood yourself as a professional. So, what did you learn there and how did it change the

18:30way that you operated on day-to-day? Yeah. So, first we really have to get into where this retreat was. Yes. Okay. So, yeah, tell me all about the retreat. Yes. So, whenever someone at PWC would get promoted to senior associate, at least back in my day, um they would call the it I think it was called senior discover and it was hosted at this beautiful cliffside ocean resort in Palace Veres. It's called the Tterranea and it's a beautiful resort. Um, and fun fact, it is the former home of Marine World in California, and I unfortunately didn't go didn't get to go there until Father's Day a couple years

19:10ago for the first time. So, I was not part of this initiative at PwC back in the day. Yes. And it's changed o over the years. I think when I was there, it was at the Terrania Resort. I think the most recent I heard is that they do it at a resort called Miraval. It's like a well-being resort. Um, but when I was there, um, it was at a Terranea Resort and it's a very beautiful place just along the o along the Pacific Ocean. Um, and basically what it is is a place for you to come as yourself and to not do client work. It's really a chance for all the seniors to

19:45unplug, get in touch with themselves because they're probably e either about to gear up for a busy season or perhaps they've just finished a busy season and need to replenish and kind of find their their roots and kind of ground themselves. Um, so this was a a promotion perk um once someone got promoted to to senior. And I would say that it was a turning point for me in my career because basically as part of this program, not only do you do you get to go away, I think it was for three or four nights. Um, but you also get assigned a career coach and you'll do

20:21some group coaching and about with about 8 to 10 people, but you also get one-on-one coaching with one of these career coaches to kind of talk about, okay, what is it that keeps you here at PWC? What are the things that that burn you out? How is your energy? Um, and it really caused me to think in internally about what it is I like about my job and what is and and what are the things that are that I'm having a hard time to to manage. Um, and I think that one thing that stood out to me was that of all of the people um at the resort, I was

20:56probably managing my energy a lot better than 95% of the people there. And I only say that because we did some kind of survey and they're like, "Okay, keep your hand up if you got like 15 points, 18 points, whatever." And I was like one of the few ones with my hand up towards the end. Um, and I was like looking around the room. And I think that that just showed me how much I emphasized taking care of myself throughout all the busy seasons that I had been in. Um, and it also inspired me to keep that going throughout my career, which is why I I

21:28probably stayed at the big four as long as I as long as I ended up staying. Um, because I was able to kind of take life into perspective and not necessarily burn out while while doing so. Yeah, I think that's huge just in terms of, you know, we talk a lot about balance and you're obviously a living example of not just balance, but integration. And I think you go back to my days at PWC and those there was a big emphasis on work life balance but it was a lot of like talk without any actual action backing it up. And I think that was the real flaw in that particular

22:02environment was people were saying it but ultimately nobody was living it or there were very few people that actually lived it and actually could see it in them. And I think that you know just goes to show you like people at the lower levels associates and seniors and even in the college ranks they're seeing that right? they're seeing a culture that maybe says one thing but doesn't actually back it up in terms of living proof for it. So, I mean, kudos to you for being able to navigate your way

22:23through that at PWC. Yeah. In in public accounting, obviously, like, you know, take care of yourself first sounds great on a slide deck, like you said, it's it's not just talking the talk, it's walking the walk. And and I remember that's the professional skeptic, I think, in everybody, you know, that's in this profession, right? where you're like, "Yeah, this is this is great that they're saying they they care, but I know this partner and he doesn't really

22:46care, so they're not really bought in." But I think I kind of just had this epiphany moment as you were speaking that no matter where you go, there's always going to be these politics that you can't necessarily avoid, right? Like the leadership can't just come out and say, "If anybody has a problem with any partner, you know, because they're not following the culture, you come to us and let us know because then there's like some coup to overthrow the people, right?" So there's this kind of understanding of balance, but the transparency and trying to create as many people that are kind of embracing and on board with that culture, that's

23:15what spreads it, right? It's grassroots and it kind of spreads its way amongst the ranks. So Andrew, we we've always been talking about it too, right? The concept of work life balance, the concept of work life integration, the concept unfortunately that we live with is burnout, right? You mentioned that, right? And I I I'm a little bit surprised and I've got my own thoughts on this. I'm curious, Ellen, what you think about this, but the AICPA, I think, just recently published some sort of burnout checklist that they want people to ultimately complete as part of being a professional within public accounting. And you have to at

23:48least I scratch my head and go, are we really at that point where we have a burnout checklist in this profession? Yeah, I mean it's a great point that you bring up, Chris, because I can't really think of another ind or another profession where they're gloating about a burnout checklist being like, are you sure that you're working, you know, hard enough? Or, are you taking care of yourself? Are you burnt out? You don't really hear that in other industries. Or if you were to ask any of my uh friends in my in my social circle to talk about burnout at their job, they'd be like, "What? I'm I'm not burnt out, right? Um

24:24so it's very unique to public accounting or especially in in client service too. So um unfortunately that is the state of our profession and I think that um I think there is a culture shift as um new professionals come into the profession wanting more work life balance and really understanding what it means to be able to have a life outside of work while also having a a career. So, I think that it it is a great point that that you bring up and I think that it's finally coming more to to to the surface. I would say when I started my career at at PWC, I kind of saw myself

25:03as a pioneer um in the in the in the I guess in the well-being space. Um, what one example that that I have was when I first got to PWC, I was not used to sitting as much as all of us did. Um, you know, you would go to college, you sit for like an hour and a half, then you'd go have a break, you'd come back, do another class, have a break, and even in the three-hour classes, they would give you a break. Um, but when you came to PWC, it was like everyone just sat there, and then they would order lunch, and then they'd bring it to you, and you

25:38would just sit there and you'd continue typing. And I'm like, "Okay, this is really strange." Um, so even as a first year, I actually bought a portable standing desk so I could bring it to my client site and everyone was like, "What is this girl doing? She's standing. That's really weird." Um, and 15 years ago, that was kind of unheard of or I got a lot of questions about my standing desk, but if you ask now, like a lot of people have standing desk. It's kind of the norm for a desk to go up and down or to have a setup where you can stand. Um, and even in our

26:11PWC office, there was a treadmill desk and I was one of the few people who actually used it. Um, but I think that me one of the few or the only one to use it, I guess, is the one of the only ones. Um, I think that me using it encouraged or inspired others to use it too. So, I think it's just a matter of being brave and kind of just leading by example and say, "Hey, I'm going to do what's best for me and I'm going to take care of myself. If this works for for you, too. if you want to stand, if you want to go on the

26:38treadmill desk, like that's up to to them. But being courageous and being brave enough to stand up for, I guess, literally what makes you feel good um is something that I think that I brought to to the table that was kind of like I don't know if it's taboo back in the day, but um it was definitely not the

26:57norm to stand while you were working. Yeah. You're definitely an anomaly, right? Yeah. Yeah, there's been this rapid uh increase I think in the focus of that. So Ellen, you were at the forefront there, you know, when it's like 5% if that adoption of that. I think when I was there, it was about like 20 25% like GT had the treadmill desk. Not a lot of people used it or whatever. I would do it if I was watching like a webinar cuz I can't really type and walk at the same time. It's a little bit uh little little more challenging. But I had done a similar thing where I wanted to bring an

27:29audit to go kit. Like I almost wanted like a rolly backpack inspector gadget style where you pop it out and so when you go to a client site you have all of your you know like three monitors pop up it like elevates. I like to be able to like lean back and look forward and straight at at a monitor. Um [snorts] and to your point now all of a sudden like standing desk is the is the norm and it happens so quickly and and Chris what you were talking about earlier we spent so many decades talking about it and companies not really doing actually doing anything about it. They're like,

28:00"Oh, we'll give you a $25 gift card to like your local gym." Well, here's the thing. Nobody has time to get to the gym when you have an hour commute and then you're working for 10 hours and then you have an hour commute back. You got to eat and you're shot from the day. So, yeah, we we'll give you a gift card if you go to go to the gym, but it's a membership that's not getting used. And so, I think we grew very desensitized to the the all the talk and we're like, "Okay, yay. It's yada yada. It's a thing." And when people started to like

28:29basically buy not not buy in but buy out because they became immune to all of the propaganda that's where that that danger happened. And fortunately or unfortunately right we had this world traumatic event you know when when you talk about co that created this like in inflection for everybody. So Ellen you had your inflection point at obviously this retreat and that was a total you know world inflection point where it impacted especially that next generation where they're like this is this is how we're doing it or not. And so it really expedited I think how the profession had been again talking about it and we're usually on like a 20 to 25 year lag as a

29:05profession um to just kind of catch up on those trends that were were happening. And now accounting firms kind of they they they're starting to give more of like those early tech company vibes as opposed to those old traditional you know accounting firm vibes. Now, there's still plenty that still have to catch up, but um you know, I still think unfortunately it's the minority, right? And again, I think we made a good push postco to ultimately empowering employees, but I do sense at least over the last year or two that there's been somewhat of a pullback or a regression and the the power is still in

29:36the employer's hands nowadays. um where you know 5 years ago it actually the employees had the power and I think that was a big fundamental difference maker is they were able to exercise that power because the employers needed those employees so bad now you enter an area area you know an era of AI and stuff where employers are saying look I don't necessarily need you as much perhaps you need me and that ultimately forces the hand as well and some of the stuff that we've worked so hard to ultimately create a better environment do you start to see it go by the wayside things like work from home things like you know

30:05return to office mandates and stuff which I don't think are a good thing for the profession by any means. Yep. And uh to kind of like obviously one of those mandates that exists throughout the profession is often the busy season and the busy season hours. And so I I do want to get into the the build of how we avoided that. But I want to close the chapter on your public career. Ellen, in the middle of busy season and the work isn't going anywhere. How do you do this whole take care of yourself first? Because like you

30:31said, Chris, this is a slow adaptation. So very few of these firms are actually moved into this next era of doing things like the way that they need to be done. Um how do you actually navigate you know this Ellen for the for the vast majority of people who are still stuck in that

30:47busy season cycle? Yeah, you know I would say it's definitely tough. Um it's definitely not not easy and and sometimes you're not going to get a perfect well-balanced day every single day. And I think that that's part of the balance, right? It's like some days we might not be able to have as much flexibility as we want, but maybe the next day there's a little bit more leeway. I think for me and and the teams that I supervise during busy season, I always try to integrate some kind of break during the the day. So my team would attend intentionally say like, "Hey, let's go for a walk. Hey, let's go

31:26outside. Let's eat lunch outside." It sounds silly when I talk about it out out loud. It's like, "Oh, let's go eat lunch outside." But literally, some teams, they'll just sit there at their desk being like, "Oh, I'm I'm too busy. I can't even walk away from my desk and eat for 20 minutes." Um, and I think

31:42that's a little a little bit dramatic. Um, so it's like, how do you escape from Alcatraz at the end of the day, right? Yeah. So, I I would say that there's always time to take a break, to take some kind of even if it's just I I think some of my associates, they would go to their car and take like a p like a power nap, whatever works for for for that person. For for me, it's it's taking walks or putting on my my music and just listening to something to get out of the calls or just get into a different realm. Um, and I think that one thing

32:15that helped me and my teams was basically we decided that we weren't going to work at at the office after a certain hour. So, it's like, okay, it's 7:00 p.m. everyone head home, do your thing. If you need to work after that, log on, but you can do it from home. Like, I don't want to see your face, basically. Um, and a change of of of scenery definitely can can help with productivity or even just changing it up

32:38so it doesn't feel as monotonous. The montage helped too, right? Yeah, I I had the opportunity to work on a handful of beautiful luxury properties. That was my portfolio. So maybe that helped too. So it's always a catch 22 when you have those situations cuz part of you wants to go participate in in the place that you're at, you know, when when I was when I like I loved working at the chia company because I got all this like kind of free food. Um and I would just eat and I was like, "Wow, my digestive tract is like really doing well because of all these these these chia seeds." Um, but

33:10there is obviously like the temptation at a certain client where you're like, "Wow, I kind of want to go explore this area, but it's like no, you kind of got to get refined there." But at this flip side, it's nice to be in a nice environment to work. I thought you were going to say you were at the Chia Pet Company first and go out there and grow some Chia Pets. But no, I mean, I go back to my days of public accounting. My favorite engagement by far was when we used to do the audit for the Anaheim Ducks that were owned by Disney at the time because they actually

33:34were audited out of the Honda Center, the Arrowhead Pond back in the day, and we got to actually audit out of the team suite and stick around for kind of these, you know, concerts and stuff or even just pregame hockey, that sort of stuff. So, it's the environment that sometimes contributes to the actual

33:48well-being as well. And I think that's a key like career insight for people who are looking at the, you know, the directions that they can go in the profession. And that was one of the beautiful things that was always and still at it still is and I think it always will be one of the beauties is that like every company has an accounting department and you know Tim Tim Natty talks about this every decision you make it's like there's a business decision behind every piece of art and uh how do you fund a movie and how do you fund a music video or a song or an album or a sports team or

34:17organization and you can participate in a capacity that's related to your profession and the accounting department gets a ring when the team wins the Super Bowl, just like everybody else that works at the organization, right? So, you can be a Super Bowl winner because it's not just the players on the field that are part of the the company, it's everybody who makes that company

34:38operate. Yeah. But I I mean, I'm listening to Ellen. I'm obviously I think, you know, Ellen, you're an inspiration to a lot of people that are in public accounting because a lot of people don't necessarily have what you were able to cultivate and create at PWC and even in, you know, your world past post PWC. So, you know, and I think that's unfortunate is that there's not more Ellens out there in public accounting, but um for all the bad we talk about public accounting, there's also these good situations as well. And it's a matter of ultimately aligning yourself to those to hopefully uh you know, get what you want out of it

35:10just as much as the employer wants out of you. And I think it very much so becomes an individualized, you know, decision. So, you know, if you if you take away anything from this, right, it's listen to Ellen's story and you can choose to make that be your story as well. And so, thinking of choices here, Ellen, you know, CPA Club operates pretty differently from your traditional firm, right? 4-day work week, no billable hour pressure, distributed team with, you know, intentional connection and how it's built. So, you know, there's there's this level of like being deliberate in the design. And how do you how do you what's your philosophy on

35:47like why this works like how how deliberate that design was for you know how you kind of build your people and culture team at CPA club and how that actually has business value and and success tied to it as opposed to what everybody thinks which is like culture kind of comes at the cost of of the of the bottom line and the business success. So, you did mention the 4-day work week, Drew, and the lack of billable hours. And I think for me, that's really been gamechanging in terms of how I approach my my work at CPA Club because I remember sitting at PWC. Um, and basically, as we approach busy

36:28season, everyone was like, "All right, guys, you must bill at least 55 hours a week from now until the end of March." And I was like, "Okay, all right. Challenge accepted. I will build 55 hours a week no matter what, minimum." Um, and I would say that it didn't encourage me to be productive. It's like, okay, if I need to be here for 12 hours a day, um, or 11 hours a day, how can I make this time go by if I just need need to go get through all this work? And of course there there's work to be done but as an employee there was

37:08no incentive to finish anything early. It's like okay here I go let me do this copy paste copy from last year. All right let me do some data validation look at my different screens. There was no incentive for me to find any way to do it faster because I knew even if I finished my my work early they would just pile on more more work for for me

37:27and say like oh Ellen finished early. Okay why don't you help this person with all of their work. And I'm like, why why would I want to do that? Um, so I remember sitting there, not every single day, but um there were instances where I was definitely not inspired to work as quickly or as fast as I could because the the only reward for that was more work, right? And I think the beauty of the 4-day work week and the beauty of not charging by the hour is that my I if I want to have a 4-day work week, I know

37:58what I want to get done in a given week. So I find a way to make that possible, right? So, if I know that I want to take my Friday off and to respect having that Friday, I need to get through certain things during the week and it's up to me to find the most efficient way to get

38:15through all of my work to get that done. Um, obviously there are es and flows and and and some weeks I might just have to do a couple of things on a Friday depending on, you know, when things get back to me or what what whatever it may be. But I would say that I feel more empowered for my schedule in order to keep that 4-day work week. So whenever we have something Monday through Thursday, I'm like laser focused so that I can have that fourth day off. And I forget what theory it is. I want to say it's like Parkinson's law or Parkinson's theory where we basically allow the time

38:49ourselves for any given task and we extend into that amount of time um depending on how much time we we we give ourselves. So, if we say, "Okay, let's finish this by Friday," then you'll find a way to stretch it out until Friday. If you say, "Okay, you only have until Wednesday," you'll find a way to get it done by by Wednesday, right? Um, so that's kind of the same concept in which the 4-day work week operates is that our our company's culture and our philosophy is that we have a a 4-day work week and it's up to us to find and manage our time and the solutions that we provide

39:25to our passholders within that that that given time frame. So, I found it to be really encouraging cuz it's like, okay, what can I get done faster um so that I can enjoy my my my Fridays. Yeah. And well, I think part of it is the what you alluded to is the concept of pricing the outcomes, right? And so or the access to our professionals. And so, by default, the value of that outcome doesn't change. I'll give a a simple example. The audit of cash may have a certain prescribed value to the client. Now, it can take us 16 hours to do cash or it can take us 2 hours to do

40:00cash, but the end result is the exact same. So, rewarding the employee to figure out what's the easiest path to get to and ultimately get it done so that they can actually enjoy the remaining hours that they have allocated to that perhaps that's on them, right, to figure that out. And I think that's part of the incentive model is price it to the outcome and people will find a way to get it done as efficiently as

40:21possible. Yeah. value based on outcome I think is is key there and especially as you start to move into realms where and this is just going to be inevitable with with AI because you know the hours model doesn't work in that and I think the good thing about that is if as you move away from the hours model then that opens up the possibility of the 4-day work week becoming you know made regular it's very difficult for companies I think or firms to to rationalize it when they're still using the billable hour model because you're like well I'm just losing a day of hours. But as soon as you escape that

40:53billable hours model, it does open up that possibility. But the the the way the reason I'm so set on that notion of like outcomebased value and results-based value is because the way that you get to that value and to that outcome. I mean, I just, you know, myself, for example, some of my most creative ideas come from being at the gym, right? It doesn't come from sitting down and staring at a screen. It comes from doing something else. And I think a lot of tech companies that you know want innovation encourage their people to go do things because that's where the inspiration comes from. And you know the

41:28the old mindset would say well you're wasting time because you're not you know sitting at a computer working but uh work can take on work doesn't have to take on the form that it previously did. So, you know, you designed processes that eliminated, you know, 40 to 60 hours of manual work per project and most people frame that as an efficiency win, but how does that operational excellence kind of actually contribute

41:57to people's actual wellbeing? Ellen? Yeah. So, I think what you're alluding to, Drew, is um one of the bots that the team built um that basically saved a ton of manual, I guess, manual data entry. Um so, we were able to create a bot that saved about 40 to 60 hours per per that that we had. And really the result of that was our our team had more time to focus on providing other solutions to our passholders, right? So if we think about it, if we were on the billable hour model, we we we could have just, you know, spent those 40 to 60 hours just

42:37copying and pasting, copying and pasting, data entry, data entry, but there's a opportunity cost for where those hours could have been spent for, you know, building the company or building um or or even getting new new work. So you have to kind of think of the cost benefit of like okay is it better to have my team copying and pasting for 50 hours per project or is there team time spent or is there time better spent elsewhere and and thankfully with this bot it eliminated that um amount of time spent per per also just from a human perspective um having a bot do copying and pasting or

43:15data entry is a lot more enjoyable from a people perspective um than than having my my team do it, right? So, um if you want to think about ways to improve the people experience, I want to give them things that are going to to challenge them, things that they look forward to. But if I were to tell an associate or a senior or a manager saying like, "Hey, here's your work for 40 to 60 hours. Go

43:41for it." And we have so many projects. That wouldn't really encourage someone to want to stay in this realm, right? They're going to want to do other things. say, "Hey, Ellen, I'm kind of bored doing this." And it's completely understandable why. Um, so finding bots to take out the boring work so that people can do the fun work. Um, is part of the perks of finding ways to make things more efficient and faster and and

44:05and better. Couple things here. It it taps into the creative abilities of people that sometimes they don't get to exercise in public accounting is when you actually challenge them to say, "Hey, go build a bot that can make this better." Right? that's ultimately stretching the creative muscles of people's brains in a different way. But secondly, I'm always curious about this. So I presume bots are like babies. Do you actually have a

44:26name for the bot? That's a good question. I don't think that we officially name the bot, Chris. Just the bot. Okay, it's the bot. Interesting. And then I go back. Drew made a good point. I will reaffirm the fact that you cannot just pivot into a 4-day work week when you're under available hour model. It's it's fundamentally impossible. So you do have to ditch the billable hour in order to create an access model that then can

44:49translate into a 4-day work week. So I do want to pivot, you know, from from that stuff and kind of talk about, you know, your work life integration concept, right? Because I think what's always interesting is uh I think Jeff Bezos talked about it's not about work life balance, it's about integration. Mhm. Balance just says it's it's one on and the other one off and then the other one on and the other one off versus integration which is kind of how they coexist and how they flow and are intertwined. So you have a lot going on, right? You're senior vice president here. You've got toddler uh you know

45:25kids at home. You've got the board seat you know for for Second Harvest Food Bank. So you're volunteering. You have competitive dance in your background. That was a new one for me to to discover. I was I didn't know about that. you've got your 13 countries of sbatical. Um, so you know, you you've clearly always had these other things going on outside of work to feed the soul. So is now was are are those things intentional as far as like you you wanted to find things to do or is that just kind of like an element of like this is who I am and and I'm just going

45:57to do it no matter what? Yeah. You know, I think that a part of me is always itching for kind of the the next thing um that I want to dabble in. So, for example, last year I did my first ever bowling league with my family, which was really fun. I al I also took some swim classes, some recreational swim classes as well. And then I think for this year, I'm eyeing some waterc coloring classes. Um or maybe some kind of like painting or drawing class. But for some reason, I always feel drawn to find something a for my creative outlet cuz like you said, I did grow up in a very creative

46:33background. So I I did do dance basically from age three all the way through through college with a handful of those years being competitive. Um so I do feel like I have this a very creative side to me that doesn't necessarily get to be unleashed um during my accounting 9 to5 8 to 5 job. Um, so I feel like there's always just this creative side that's kind of bubbling in the background, which is what draws me to a lot of these, I guess, outside activities. Um, I think that I I would even argue that travel is a creative art cuz it's really understanding and absorbing the world

47:10around you that's different than your home, right? So whether it be just walking around listening to a different language or seeing different things or trying different food, it's really just kind of challenging and stretching the brain um in ways that you don't get if you have the same routine every single day. So I would say that those things I've always gravitated towards and I think that's helped me grown as a person and helped me see the world through a different lens and um just see people with more compassion and just see everything a little bit differently. Um, so I've always gravitated towards I guess more fun activities maybe or just

47:46something out of the the ordinary to keep my creative spirit alive. Yeah. And the creative when it comes to in the business world and then creative when it comes to like other endeavors are are different strings I think when it comes to you know how do you how do you unleash that creativity. So, um I think having that balance, it starts with understanding yourself, right? And you knowing and I think you you've you've mentioned this a few times of just like how you you do feel like you are a creative person at the end of the day, right? And so so some people are they completely deny they're like I am

48:23not creative whatsoever. Don't throw me on camera. Don't ask me to draw something. Don't ask me to come up with a post or something like that's not my realm. Um, and it's good for the people that, you know, are self-aware of that and they don't have to necessarily pursue those types of interests. They can either double down on the career or they can have some other hobby that maybe feeds their interests and and their passions. But starting with just like reflecting on yourself and understanding, okay, this is something I am passionate about and I'm going to feel drained if I don't I'm going to feel like I'm losing my flame or my fire

48:53if I don't, you know, at least feed that in some capacity. even if you can be creative in a work environment capacity, there's there's so many parts of the creative world that I think that's important that you figured that out. And I'm really curious, Ellen, and hopefully some of the listeners will have the same type of thoughts and questions, but I do feel like some of that identity that I'll call it maybe a 360 identity that we form in adolescence. obviously continues into college in terms of the extracurriculars goes by the wayside a bit once people enter public accounting and it gets lost at that moment. How do you I guess

49:29continue to have that you know at the end of the day how does that how do you maintain that as part of your soul when you have a work environment that ultimately fundamentally goes against everything that that stands for? Yeah, I think you bring up a good point, Chris, and I will say that when I worked for the big four previously. I feel like a part of that side of me died a little bit just because of the time constraint, right? There wasn't as much time. And I remember always coming out of busy season and it was summer and I was like, "Wow, what are my hobbies?" I remember

50:04like having that thought almost every year cuz it's like wow now I have time to do something after work or now I have time to do something on the weekend or you know and I kind of just kind of that like re-evaluation period after every busy season and you kind of get re re replenished. I would say right now having the 4-day work week helps me think, okay, if I have um or since I do have the time capacity, how do I want to spend my my time? And I think I think one of the things that helps me is really putting it as a priority, saying,

50:36"Hey, if I do this bowling league, that's really going to fill my cup so that I can show up to work, you know, feeling happier and replenished and all that kind of stuff." So for me, I see these extra activities as really a way of taking care of myself and saying, "Hey, what's going to make Ellen happy? Will it be this? Will it be that? Or is it going to be just going home and watching Netflix?" Right? Um, so it really just comes down to a self-reflection of taking an inventory of what fills my cup versus what's draining or what makes me feel like I'm

51:09just going through the motions. Yeah. I'm going to go back to something you said initially though because you mentioned at the start you went through the grind, right? And so most people including the listeners here are probably in that grind and so they don't have the luxury of a 4-day work week where they actually have more time to

51:25allocate towards life. What's the message to those folks at this point in terms of how do they actually get more life that really encapsulates who they are as people? Yeah, you know, I would say for I I think my advice is that it's important to make it a priority. So, for example, I I I I mentioned that while I was at PWC, I actually held a part-time job teaching group fitness classes. Um, and it would probably take me well, the classes were 1 hour each, but but one of them would end basically at I think 8:30 on a Friday. And so after that, I would just be coming in to work late or even

52:04on on on Monday evenings. I'd have to leave work early during busy season to go to that class. And for me, that was a priority. It was basically a non-negotiable. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to be gone Monday evening early cuz I need to teach this class. I'm going to be coming in late on Friday because I'm teaching this class." And I think once I made it a priority, I I was able to make it happen. So even in my early career at PWC, I was still able to do both. I was able to do busy season and be a high performer and also have the ability to have a hobby or even

52:41honestly a part-time job um and make that a priority. So for I would say for those who are in in the grind, if you make it a priority and kind of make it a non-negotiable or um tell yourself th this is what I need to do to fill my cup and kind of have that be your boundary

53:01for your work. That's what I I would recommend. Um because it's possible it um it it might require some some flexibility. So yeah, maybe on on Monday after my class, I had to sign on again and complete some some work still, but that really helped me have the energy to to do that. Ultimately, I think I'll just real quick before Drew jumps in here is you kind of defined in our profession, we talk about scope creep. Maybe we're coining a new term here based on Ellen's. It's the concept of like career creep, right? You don't want to make sure your career doesn't necessarily creep into your actual life

53:35because it's still just one component of who we are. Yes. Yeah. the and to your point from earlier about that theory it's if once you make it a priority your schedule will build itself around what those things are and I think to you know to your point like if if you needed to get things done in four days so that you could spend time teaching on the fifth day you would find a way to to get it done and in the same way I think I think most of the hours and the way that most work especially in the white collar world has been done for

54:05a while which again AI is going to blow up there's not going to be that opportunity to have these like wasted hours necessarily anymore, but there used to be just a lot of I think wasted time intentionally going slow and even if it was coming from a subconscious level. Uh so people say, "Oh, well that's you we lost four hours." And it's like, "Well, no, if you just kind of condense the other hours and and make those more productive hours, you'll get just as as much done." So, you know, you you talk about, you know, these teachings and this whole thing has been a very valuable lesson. And you actually

54:35do it from a mentorship standpoint as well. And so this is you know kind of new to me as well and obviously I I'm aware of the the coaching endeavors that you do you know amongst the people but um you do take you know mentorship as a serious thing and I think you know encourage people to get the courage to ask questions and and not not resist help and sometimes you know getting a mentor asking somebody to kind of coach you or help you out is um is asking for help. So, what's that what's that mentorship journey just been like for you? And, you know, when what does it feel like when

55:09someone finally finds their footing? Like, why do you why do you keep showing up for that for that mentorship? Because it's obviously something you're passionate about. Well, I think going back to the PWC Discover experience, um, one thing that stood out to me was the coach that that I had. So, the coach that I had, she was the one who actually inspired me to get my own coaching credential because I was like, "Wow, people can actually help individuals one-on-one for a full-time job." Um, so that's what inspired me to get my coaching credential. And through that coaching credential, you learn a handful of different techniques on on

55:48how to mentor and how to coach people. And I think one of the things that sticks out to me is if you think about the maybe the original meaning of a coach, um I think of a stage coach, right, of a horse pulling by a carriage. And it's really how to get someone from point A to point B. And that's the purpose of of a coach or you know a it's a mode of of transportation at the end of the the day. And that's how exactly how I see mentorship, too. It's like, okay, how do we help get our associates from point A to point B? And I'm not the

56:20one who's defining what their point A is and what their point B is. They internally know where they they are and where they want to go is up to them. So it's not me holding their hand and and and guiding them where they where I want them to go, but it's more like, okay,

56:37what does your career journey look like? And really make it about that that individual. And I think for me it's been a really rewarding process to understand and to see the growth of each in individual kind of step into their their shoes knowing that they got there all on their own. Sure, I may have asked some guiding questions and and helped them really un uncover what it really is that that they want to get out of either their career or their personal life or whatever it it may be. But I think that for me it's really rewarding to be a part of that that process. And I think

57:10that the beauty of of it is that all of the potential it's all within. It just has to get unlocked and seen through through a different light. And sometimes people just need help finding that light within. Um so for me it's been really um re rewarding to help individuals through that process. And it's something that um

57:30that I really enjoy. Awesome. Well, I want to wrap this up with your final kind of remarks on looking back at somebody who's maybe two years into their accounting career. They're already feeling the grind. What's that encouraging word? What's that advice that you would if you could rewrite advice to someone who's, you know, early on in their career about, you know, not just surviving through the profession in public accounting, but actually thriving in it and getting the

57:58most out of that experience? What would uh that advice be? What would you tell them? Yeah, I think the advice that I would give is to make yourself a priority. Meaning, take care of yourself. Take care of yourself first. I I I would say that the work is always going to be there, right? Um but if you don't take care of yourself, the work is even going to grow e even more cuz you're not going to be able to show up to work as your bell as your best self. you need to be um well fed, well well slept um and have the energy to show up for what you need

58:32to do. So that it it all comes from taking care of yourself first and really knowing that you as a human being and your well-being matters much more than an email getting sent out by end of day, right? So really take care of yourself. Um and I think that that'll go a long way not only in your in your career but also just the longevity of of of your

58:52life. Yeah. What I think I heard from you is just that conscious choice to avoid that career creep. Yes, that's a good way to put it. Well, we will be coining career creep after this episode. So, Ellen, thank you so much for joining us and and thanks for giving us these amazing insights. And I think it's very useful to anybody who, you know, is early in their career as well as from the flip side, anybody who's trying to adequately and effectively coach and get the most out of, you know, their their young staff and mentor them into the best versions that they can be. Um, and it's, as

59:23you've proven, you know, logically, it's a good business decision as well. Yeah. And when the clock strikes 55, that's our cue to wrap things up because anyone who knows me knows I could talk for eight hours a day like it's my job. That's kind of meta, actually. Thank you so much. That's a terrible number of public accounting, Drew. [laughter] It's crazy how you end up here. So, thanks uh for coming on. We'll drop Ellen's LinkedIn in the show description so you can check out her bi-weekly posts on people and culture. And I'm sure if you ask her any survival tips, she'll be prompt to get back to you because she's

59:57got her operations in order and has been sharing some great insights on our LinkedIn page. So, this has been qualified opinions brought to you by CPA Club, transforming accounting firms and professionals so we create a better future for the entire industry. So, earn CPE credit for listening to this episode by taking the quiz on the earark app and subscribe to us wherever you're listening. I'm Drew Carrick and until

1:00:18next time, stay puted.