The $20M Business Hidden Inside Video Games

0:00I've been trying to get you on the podcast for a year, so first off congrats on your acquisition. Thank you. how much were you guys doing in revenue before you got acquired? We had ownership in a portfolio of games that were doing over $20 million a year in revenue. $20 million a year. And what do you do? Um we would basically act as like a mini PE firm within video games that would buy shares inside of Fortnite games, make them perform better, put ads in them, um and then continue to repeat

0:24that process. only did you make money building Fortnite maps, but then you would sell ads inside of Fortnite maps. Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is so fascinating to me. I think this is like one of the like the definition of how Gen Z kids are making money right now. And so I really want to understand how do you make money

0:38building Fortnite maps? It was very similar to like YouTube. Um and so that's why I kind of felt confident getting into it. It was just like a content game of of, you know, working with algorithms. And so they Fortnite had an on-platform algorithm of a bunch of games to play. Um they had their own game engine. Um most people don't know, but like Unreal Engine, the game development engine that's used for almost all games in like all 3D environments, was made by Epic Games, the creator of the Fortnite. So they made a simplified version for Fortnite. And

1:04Okay. Um so you'd make inside of that engine, you would release it to Fortnite's platform. Um if you had a great thumbnail, great uh play time, great retention, Fortnite would then broadcast your game to all of its users because the line incentives. They want games that people stay on the game for longer, it grows their platform. Um eventually it leads to people purchasing more. And um it was a black box in terms of how people would get paid. Uh the exact math around how people would get paid, but it was roughly around like a penny for every 10 minutes

1:35of gameplay. Mhm. And the top maps had like tens of billions of dol- uh tens of billions of minutes of gameplay. So that was kind of like the metric that people would reverse engineer into like income. So essentially there's like two metrics. If people saw your map on the So you'd build a map through Fortnite. Like you would actually just build it through their game engine they created. So you could just build this custom game mode in Fortnite. Then it would go on a For- like a Fortnite basically like a browse different games you could play. If you had a good thumbnail, people click it and then you

2:01got paid based off how many people played the game and then how long they stayed. Like you're actually getting paid per paid for like minute of them playing your game. Correct. Lifetime like lifetime engagement of a user was like the metric you want to drive. Got you. So it's like average view duration on YouTube but average play

2:15time instead of a game. Correct. And it's not like ephemeral content that you watch it once it's done with. It's like these games are um you make you make a game but but people repeat play games. That's like the main main difference and why I think like a lot of these maybe like initiatives around like making games something that are real time generated and you keep playing new games like not really a thing. Like people like find a game they stick with

2:35it. That's That was like the big thing. evergreen game that people came back towards. Exactly. Got you. So what was Can you give me an example of one of your games that was like popular? Yeah, one of them that was that was pretty funny that we had a deep involvement with was called Brain Rot

2:46Box Fights. Mhm. And I I like I think it was the most viral game on Fortnite on on socials. We'd worked with like very very talented um entrepreneur that he was like the founder of the game um and we had we had bought a share in it um for for pretty good price and um we would basically take pop culture references from social media, things that were really popular at the time like Brain Rot memes like Toon Toon Sahoor and uh you know, like Will Smith talking about the economic state of the world and we would animate that, put it in the game, and then make social media content,

3:23recording in-game footage um and then just post it on a bunch of UGC accounts. And we were generating I think at peak like maybe 200 million views a month Got you. On that game. Can you explain a little bit of how the game itself worked? Like if I clicked I want to play this game, what is the game

3:38mode? You'd get loaded into a big box and there was like 20 other people put in that box and you just fight to the death and last man's last man standing wins. And every round rounds are every like two or three minutes. Every round you'd be spawned in with a superpower. And that superpower is like the brain rot

3:57element of it. So a different brain rot superpower based off of brain rot meme. Like you get a Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Got you. So this is like basically Fortnite has created this like system where you could like play the game, use their characters, use all their guns, but it lets you build a map and you can set all these different game modes and rules and add these elements to make it custom. So you'd build that and then you built this really viral one that was based off of memes and you're able to use short form like you do you see in clipping content to basically market the

4:22game. That one yeah. Yeah. Correct. That one was like I think the most popular game of of any game if I had to guess in terms of like the the social media grasp it had. Um but we had involved in another game that was nowhere near as popular on social medias but was just like something that people that that younger um kids would play like every day. And

4:40um it was that was called like Red vs. Blue. We had worked with the founder of that. We would help him source um brand deals and IP partnerships and stuff like that. And um and that game was significantly larger but nowhere near as like much clout on socials. Got you. Just far stickier. Yeah, so it's like a true retentive game that just won by the algorithm

4:59essentially. Got you. So to just so I understand, so there's probably two sides of it. You know you know you know your click-through rate, like you need to have a good thumbnail, you need to make sure you have a good game and that's a good way to grow organically if you have like no traffic. But you're also using external marketing like clipping or UGC to blow up Brain Rot Box Fight. So that approach was more of like use pop cultural memes that can get attention strategically cuz that would work on

5:20social. Yeah. I kind of engineered that. Driving those two together would have been like the the largest force and that was what we were what we were working on prior to getting excited by advertising. Um a few games mastered that and became massive. Like five X the size of the even the next game. Um like um Steel Brain Rot. They did that very well. They had the retentive side very well and then they were also brain rot so they had like the social media marketing side very well. That game at peak on Fortnite I making I think close to 10 million dollars a month. Um and it's still go ongoing today. Uh they

5:54they they've kind of like taken the idea from Roblox and brought it on to Fortnite in collaboration with the people that made on Roblox. On Roblox, I mean, that game was making I believe like at peak like 3 million dollars a day. Wow. Wow. And it was like crazy. There was like there was a there were there were like spikes of like 20 million people being in the game at once on the blocks. It was like it was That's nuts, dude. When you're marketing a game on social media, how are people like they're seeing a video of the game

6:17and they're like, I want to play that. How would they find the map? There's so much friction. You'd have to you'd have to go you have to open Fortnite and you have to search either like a 12-digit code to find the island or type in the name. But the typing in the name thing only came in later. So it was like a 12-digit code. And and and like the lifetime value of each of these players was like you had very little visibility on it. You could only really track like the first play. You couldn't see like

6:40the retention chart of each player. Mhm. Like the lifetime value of each of these players was maximum like 10 cents. But basically you just have to make a video on short form, put this 12-digit code. Yeah. And then they'd have to like pause the video then go type it in if they wanted to. acquisition cost had to be under 10

6:53cents. How many views were you getting? I don't know, like hundreds of hundreds of millions. Just doing clipping? Like like kind of clipping, but it was like brought in house. We had like a network of accounts that were that had very good Fortnite dense demographic uh like audiences. Mhm. And then we would curate the content and

7:09send it to them to post. Gotcha. Interesting. So I just want to clarify your business model. One, you would you in-house development team where you'd build games yourself. Yes. Two, you had a private equity play where It was what we already called it. Where you would acquire equity stakes in other Fortnite maps and

7:26offer them development support. Correct. So you had the development team and the game experience, but then you helped these other kids who knew how to make popular game modes, but didn't know how to build the engine efficiently or to Yeah, we kind of like we kind of like act like a record label, Yeah, like a at

7:40structure type of thing. and support and then help bring brand deals and IP partnerships and stuff. Nice. And then the last piece of it was you learned how to actually place ads, aka like literal digital billboards. So you'd put a billboard in these games? Yeah, we built we built this like little uh snippet of code. We thought the bottleneck to serving ads was like the capability of measuring all of the impressions and like piece of engagement. Um and so we built this little piece of code that we called like FOV, like field of view, that would basically scan a player's field of view and and be

8:13able to report all the results of that back to an advertiser in real time. Um That was like the ad tech and then building ways to automatically deploy ads into a video game and work around all that stuff. Yeah, that was like the to go deeper into that cuz that's really, really interesting. Yeah. And that's how you like essentially like got leverage to be able to acquire these top 10 games because you were able to monetize better than just building an app or building a game. But before we go into that, the last thing I want to ask you is, did you ever like what are the

8:39other Cuz you use I know you use short-form UGC and clipping to grow your Brain Rot map. Yeah. Did you ever try to like partner with influencers to build them a map? Or like what were different strategies that you were doing to make sure that you built maps that actually got players? Yeah, that was like our first strategy. Um early on, I really wanted to work with like just wanted to test like the influencer world. Um we didn't have much credibility until like a few of our own games internally got results. So then I was able to use that as as like validity and then um

9:08we worked with some of the top uh I mean basically all the top pros on Fortnite. Um we worked with all the top Fortnite content creators. Um people like LaserBeam, SypherPK, Caeso who had wasn't even like a Fortnite streamer. We had made a game with him. Um And uh yeah, that that that that strategy was fun, but honestly it wasn't

9:27as scalable. Mhm. Because you only have your your your you're limited to one demo. Got you. Um and so like the games that really grew were kind of would leverage a multitude of these people but but you wouldn't ever you you like organic content significantly um cheaper and replicable than partnering with one of these people and like rinsing their audience dry. So basically it was like ephemeral. Like you would partner with them, they would launch it one time, everyone would play it but then it didn't have a lot of retention. Yeah, like we made a game with Caso which was like the number one horror game

10:00on the on the entire platform and it was hilarious. It was like the most fun I'd ever had I'd ever had like working on on like a project. We he gave us like full creative control. We did like we spent like two weeks like learning everything about Caso like all of his lore, all of his inside jokes and like basically turned him into a into a antagonist in like a horror game that you'd have to like escape Caso and it went it went insanely viral. The issue was it was like a single single time play game. You play a horror game once, you're not going to replay and see

10:29the same jump scares again. Um but that that yeah that that was viral. Like in one one video alone from that had gotten like I think 30 or 40 million views. Crazy bro. So worked but it was just like a short term hit basically. Okay. I guess what is like what what does it take to build a good game? Like what are the if I was going to build a game from scratch for the first time like what are the ingredients that you need to

10:48understand? Yeah. Um it's it's honestly a lot of just like psychology of of of um kind of spacing out when you're asking someone to do something and then kind of like rewarding them um and and it's applicable like everything. Like games is really cool because like the same thing that makes a game very retentive is the same thing that makes a web app very retentive and the same thing that makes a movie very engaging um is it's honestly like really just understanding your demographic of people you're targeting and then trying to put yourself in their shoes and make something that is as engaging as possible for that person. And so

11:23um for instance like a like a tycoon game which is like you're you're building up like a base and like building up a lot of wealth to buy things to make more money you want to space out like the rewards. Like you want to reward them with something really big. Like or something something like like kind of bread crumb them in the beginning. Like get them get them hooked for the first like 3 minutes. Then you have leverage to start having them wait around for 2 minutes every time they want to unlock something new. But for the first 3 minutes it's like bang bang bang bang. It's like very very fast

11:50fast-paced. It's it's really just about like learning how to gain leverage on your audience. Like these games were free and the time to load into them was like 30 seconds. So you have no leverage. Like if you give someone a shitty experience literally 10 seconds into the game they'll leave. They have no commitment to you whatsoever. So you need to build that investment from them in terms of their time. Then you can have leverage to start asking more of them and sticking around your game and having more fun and inviting their

12:13friends and stuff. So you can build like any style game. Like this is like a Roller Coaster Tycoon game. And you're saying basically space out the dopamine hits. So when they play they can get like a quick win right away. But then you slowly space them out to like reward them but then have them keep working. Interesting. Is there any like storytelling element required or Um, honestly like I wish like I really love the storytelling part of it. That's what got me into gaming and that was

12:36like the most fun I had. Um, but like kids don't really care that much about it. Like Steel Barrel has done a good job of like they'll like building a narrative around their their IP. Like some of the people that work on the team on the Roblox team are like the avatars and mascots that come in the game and and then they build like huge TikTok followings and it gives them another point of contact that they can be like oh my god Sammy is coming into the game or like Jandel is coming into

13:03the into the game. Um, that's like the story element they have there. Um, but it's it's very hard to build that without like external people and lines of communication. And if I wanted to build a Fortnite map what like what are the steps I'd have to take? I need to just log Do I log into Fortnite or do I go straight into Unreal

13:18Engine? You go to you go to Unreal Engine Fortnite editor. Like UEFN is is is um, is what it's called and um, there's like two sides of it. There's like the the game development level level design, which is using like the game engine, which is like literally like kind of like Lego block building.

13:34Mhm. Very Just like select item and fly around and drop in place. Like Forge in Halo, yeah. Yeah. Um and then the other side is like traditional programming. They have their own programming language called Verse. Like learning it learning it is we were working within it pre capable coding agents and AI. And so like everything we wrote was manual. Um but like I've I've actually I literally saw a thread on Twitter like 2 days ago that said I've never played Fortnite. I've never opened Unreal Engine engine, and I've spun up an agent that has deployed like 20 games for me over the last month that

14:11I made $5,000 doing it. Wow. So you can use AI to build a Yeah, yeah, yeah. to build these Fortnite maps now. Yeah. Real quick, if you've been sitting on a website idea, stop overthinking it. You don't need some complicated tech stack to get online. Hostinger is an all-in-one place to launch your website. You can get your domain, your website hosting, your business email, and even

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14:49Hostinger. There's no barrier to entry. The website, the hosting, the email, the marketing tools, all of the basic pieces are there, so you can stop putting it off and get your thing online. Go to hostinger.com/brett10 and use code brett10 to get 10% off. That's hostinger.com/brett10. Hostinger, er like hosting, and start your website today. Now, back to the episode. Okay, so now I want to go into like the last thing I kind of know about your business model, which made me really interested as a marketer, and that was that you were actually you would build maps for brands

15:20and actually do like brand activations. It's like I know that Fortnite themselves are like this big Travis Scott concert and got like 60 million concurrent viewers. But you're doing the same thing where you like partner with like Pringles or big brand. Yeah. And then build them like a Pringles gun inside of Fortnite. we did a game with like Snoop Dogg. And like it was like an only up game and there was like Snoop Dogg performing at like a

15:38little concert in there. Um Um that was fun. Worked with Snoop Dogg's team and hung out at his compound and stuff. That was really cool. We did a game with Nav. Um Same thing. Kind of put him in in one of our games and it was for the release of his his uh Rexdale album. Um and yeah, we the the the main product that how we started working with Wopp in the first place was we built um this advertising infrastructure layer that would integrate into our games. Um and we would basically set up different parts of our games that would be hooked up to a web app. Whenever a person would

16:11buy ads through our web app, it would serve In the that ad in the game. Um and so that was used for like pilot campaigns with some of these other big brands, and so. That is so cool. So you first would just like you kind of did these like brand activations with companies and then you realized you could take it a step further by actually integrating digital like literal billboards. And then you could track the player in the games like what they were looking at and it would time how long they looked at that billboard. You can count that as an

16:34eyeball impression. Yeah, that was that was like the entire thesis. We were like starting to integrate with billboard networks and so like billboards would sell like in-game advertising inventory as like one of their one of the things. So that was something that we had like started doing before we had we had uh Yeah, so

16:49we before we had joined Wopp. Gotcha. So it's so interesting. So you started out just being a game developer, having a little team of developers, and you started building maps yourself. Then you started to actually partner with like creators and streamers to actually build them their maps. Then you realized that these same people want ads actually in the games. And so then you built technology that would pull Well, actually like these same people was really us. We were building a product for for ourselves, right? We had from just our like development infrastructure and like a deal flow and we were able to strike like the initial seed of games that we

17:24had involvement with that you know we were providing a lot of value to like the owners of those games. Um and then the thesis was like the TAM of Fortnite was like $400 million a year. Fortnite would pay out $400 million a year to these creators. Roblox pays out like billions or like maybe close to a billion. Um and so our thesis was we wanted to like roll up the entire ecosystem. That was

17:47like our goal. And the only way we could go about doing that was if we had a competitive advantage that no one else had access to. So we were like we need to increase the lifetime value of our players so much more to the point that we can go to these other games and buy them for a premium and like it be a great a positive sum experience for everyone involved. Um and so we built our ad tech platform like out of necessity to increase the lifetime value of our players like get more revenue out of each minute of gameplay um to then be able to

18:17justify going to these games paying a premium and then putting our ad tech in it and then repeating that process. Got you. So it was more of like a a wedge to get the to make a more valuable value proposition to the top games say hey we want a 5% stake in your game. We'll integrate our ad tech so everybody

18:32makes more money. Correct. So it's like a no-brainer win-win. It's genuinely genius bro. a 5% stake. Yeah. That's sick though. And then you offer development support as well. You're like the whole package. Like we'll help you make the game better. We'll manage the day-to-day and we'll integrate ad tech so everyone makes more money. Yeah it was really cool. We we like mapped that out and then I'd done a lot of research and then after we'd mapped it out and that's when we started building towards I'd learned about AppLovin which is a company that basically did that exact same thing in mobile gaming. They built an ad network

18:58for mobile games. They'd buy games for like absurd prices that weren't making enough money to justify those prices but then with their ad tech they would be able to increase the monetization of that game and now AppLovin's like a $100 $200 billion company Making like six billion dollars a year. So that was like

19:15Let's do that. The second I heard this I was like, "Dude, we need to do a podcast immediately." Cuz like I've heard people make money off of Fortnite maps, but building billboards and doing advertising inside of Fortnite maps and then using that as leverage to acquire Fortnite maps, so you have a private equity firm is so gangster.

19:29He's going to be death of me. Okay, I know that was fun. Yeah, it was really fun. It's funny, bro. And you're only 21, dude. It's so impressive. How old were you when you made your first million dollars? Um in like profit, I was either 16 or 17. I think in revenue, I was just about 15 or

19:4216. Insane. Okay, story for a different time. But I actually want to talk about this adtech because what it's grown into now is even cooler. Okay, so you have been acquired, aka you were acquired by WAP essentially to come lead our adtech team and help basically all of our creators and all of our sellers to be able to advertise on all these different platforms, Fortnite, Facebook, many others. So could you explain how this division has kind of evolved outside of just Fortnite and what you're doing at

20:11WAP? Yeah, I think like ultimately we realized advertising is um advertising is like an ecosystem is like not that sexy, but it's probably the coolest thing ever. It's like the oxygen to every business. Um and if you look at all the value that's been I mean a large a vast majority of the value that's been created in Silicon Valley over the last like 50 years, it's like a majority of it comes from advertising. Like advertising pays so much. Literally like oh, I have an idea. I want it to work. I can either figure out in a really creative way how to get in front of a

20:44lot of people or I can systematize how to get a lot of in front of a lot of people and I can pay people with engagement to place myself there. And so the the fuel to make advertising very scalable is really like attribution. Um because advertising one of those things that if it works it's basically a money printer for your business. Like once you have a system that works you put money in, you get money out, as long as everything else functions properly. And so, um that was something that you know, I started working uh and talking really closely with with with Steven and the rest of the company about

21:17prior to to joining Womp. Um was we'd both kind of gone through a realization of that at the same time. Um Womp had that with clipping, where um you know, clipping is is you know, kind of this extraordinary way of like scaling advertising, but then it's like, what's the bottle neck there? And it's it's that you you can't go to a brand and say

21:34you spent $100,000 and made $200,000. And that was sort of the same um point of friction that we faced with with in-game advertising, because it was like billboards. Um and so, Steven and I just worked really closely, figured out a lot of really cool ways that we could apply um advertising that actually has very strong attribution to our merchants. And um what you explained is our first um kind of step into that in that

21:57direction. Yeah, so it's very very cool, cuz you basically built this portal where it's just a website that any brand could go to. I don't know what it was called for Fortnite. What was your website? FOV. FOV, yeah. Yeah, you built fov.com, where any brand could go up there and like buy billboards in Fortnite. And it was like

22:13a website portal that anyone could do. They would just upload the image that they wanted, and it started showing in maps, and you would track their impressions, and nail the attribution. So, they knew that they were getting like this many views in this demographic of people. And so, that was really valuable. And so, now you're basically just using that same playbook and building that inside of Womp, where essentially any creator could come on, upload an ad, but that ad can be ran to Fortnite, Meta in the future, I'm sure Snapchat, TikTok, and all these other platforms. So, it's like a centralized place to run all of your

22:43advertising. Yeah. And that's like basically what you're kind of working on right now. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it it it kind of takes that attribution to the next next level. Right? Like, um Womp has a lot of very uh cool insights on on their businesses, so you can show a lot more um and and provide a lot more data and valuable uh information to these businesses to help them grow their business more. Um and you you can kind of centralize it in one place. So, now rather than having to, hey, you know, you paid me for this this water bottle. I'm I'm Mountain Valley Spring Water and I just got paid

23:16$2 for this water bottle. Um I have to wait for that payment to close in my account uh in my Payoneer account and I have to pay it out to a bank account. And then I have to pay that into an advertising platform. Like that's like a you know, 7 to 14 business day thing. Um now instead of doing that, you just get paid in and since it's natively on Wapp and we handle your advertising now, too, you just immediately can reinvest that money. So, it removes a lot of friction there with with scaling and and we've seen like some really magical um

23:42examples of that. Um One of one of one of the merchants that we work with, they're they run an growth agency called Apex Initiative and they um came to us, they they were they'd found this they were working on this offer that was like providing a ton of value to people and like scaling and and getting very good commercials around like growth and paid acquisition. Their paid acquisition channels were doing phenomenal and they were limited by the amount that they could spend per day because they were spending from their credit card um and they only had like a $10,000 a month limit, so they'd pay off their credit

24:14card like every other day. Um even though their return on ad spend was so massive, they literally could not grow their amount of daily spend. And then um so we we kind of provided them that infrastructure and within like 2 weeks, they were they'd gone from like spending like $5,000 a day in ads to $30,000 a day in ads and their revenue was like 3x. And so, it's just like so cool how such like a small unlock in our eyes can cause such like dramatic increase to like Yeah, cuz you're cutting down the lead

24:41time. Yeah, cuz usually if you like you Stripe, you have to you get a sale, go through Stripe, deposit that to your bank, take a few days to settle, then you have to pay off your credit card, credit card goes into Meta, Meta runs ads, so then get that sale again. That's like a 14-day period. But now since it's just all native into one platform where you accept payment

24:58Yeah. and then where you spend the money to straight out of your balance, Yeah. it deletes all that. Yeah, you don't even ability to grow. Yeah. So, is that why you joined? You kind of hit these local maximums. Mhm. You're just like, yeah, sick. We're doing really well. This is really cool, but like, how do I level up as a person? Like, I'm around the same people as I was a year ago. Um

25:17we're not having new conversations. Mhm. I am, you know, I am the one leading these these um big moves and and like I'm not getting any environmental uh I'm not being uplifted by my environment whatsoever. And so, I think it was just like how like how do I put myself in a better position where there's where there's room for another 100X. And I don't I don't think gaming was was that. And so, uh Stephen and I

25:38kind of talked really deeply about it. It's like, right now what processes 4 billion dollars a year, close to it, um for the merchants on the platform. Like, a lot of those people leverage ad like all these people leverage ads to grow their businesses. Like, the immediate application was just so much larger, and the room for growth was like so much larger. It was just so much cooler. Uh so much of a cooler problem uh so much more of an exciting problem to to work on. So, that's A bigger TAM, cuz you can go outside of like you kind of maxed out Fortnite and the advertising of Fortnite. Now, it's

26:09like, okay, we can do that, but now we can play in like different channels. Yeah, I mean, like we're working with the people that own like these largest the largest like we're working with like the largest ad networks in the world. And it's like, the TAM is basically them because we like we're working with them. It's not even like we're like we're we're not even uh cannibalizing their market. Like, we are collaborating with them to help give people better resources to leverage them. It's like so cool. It's like you go from working with, you know, these smaller fish. Like, no no shade whatsoever. Like, these are people

26:37making like tens of millions of dollars a year from video games at like the age of 20 years old. Like, they're definitely not small fish by any means necessary. Like, they're the 0.00001% of the planet. Um but you go from working with those people like these the largest companies in the Billion dollars, trillion dollars. Do we Do you does this solve multi-touch attribution? Like like is that the vision to like or can we not talk about

26:57this? Yeah, I mean like I can I can kind of like touch over briefly. It's just like when everything's being bought from one place, it can be reported from one place. Got you. So so if they click on one platform, go to the website, don't buy, click on another platform, then go to website and buy, you could

27:13kind of see that whole journey. all it's just all like kind of understanding um the the data that's being brought from these platforms and like they're giving business and ourselves like better context to to act on it. Um yeah, it's it's it's like super cool because you start to look into these businesses that these are not like small businesses by any means, right? They're spend they're they're generating millions of dollars a month in revenue. It's like you look at their advertising stack and it's like prehistoric. It's like you can tell like some dude charged them like $5,000 like three three years ago like built them some

27:42what something to route and make everything work. And it's just like you talk to these like business owners that are like the top of their class and it's like hey, how do you see this? And they're like, uh so I got to go through this hoop and then I got to jump through here and then I need to call this guy to get this password. It's like, what the It's so yeah, there's just like a lot of room for for making people's lives a lot

28:00easier. Yeah, I mean all the advertising UI's are so complex. Like it's nice if you're like a technical person, but like for the average creator or info business owner or really even like SAS business owners like you just want to run ads. Like you don't need to go through 17 layers of settings and whatnot. Like I just want to upload my creative, maybe set my budget, maybe add some targeting, you know, and then hope and then it goes

28:22everywhere. Yeah, it's like frustrating because of like there's so many complexities and like rightfully so, we originally when we were tackling this problem, we were like, let's remove all complexity. And so we made the UI very simple and then we shipped it out and people were like, why can't do this? I can't do that. I

28:35can't do this. And we're like, okay. Like we have to go back. Yeah. Yeah, so we so we kind of support like all these complexities now, but a lot of it I definitely agree is like there's a lot of noise that most people um maybe get lost in um and uh things that a lot like a lot of it is like I'm going to say it's a mundane task but it's like there it's a lot of AB testing, right? It's like things that are systemizable. And so um it's really exciting to it's really exciting to think about like how to help solve that problem and make it a a lower barrier of

29:04entry. Like the mission of our product is like let's we create one-click advertising like one-click ads to to like the world. Um not phrased properly but that's one-click advertising that's a fantastic line. I like that. Cuz it's like I've spent like years learning the meta ad like layout and UI. They change it a lot. Super complicated pixels, adding user permissions, getting access to other people's It's so complicated. I finally like I've spent enough time where I understand that. But it's like oh wait, now TikTok exists. Now I got to go figure out the TikTok UI. It's similar but not the exact same. Then I got to go to Google and then it's like

29:36Google PPC, YouTube. It's like the same It's like bro, I just want to get a video that advertise on one of my YouTube videos. Yeah. This is so This is going to be like a massive massive shill fest but it's like it was really funny. I was on the phone with one of our our channel partners and they were like oh like do you guys have plans to like run your own ads and I was like the goal of my product is that eventually I can figure out how to run your ads on ads on your platform without even going on your platform cuz I can't

30:00figure out your platform. Like my goal is to make advertising fun and engaging enough for me to go on my own platform, run ads and then it does the communication to you and like does that well. Which I'm still yet to do. But it will be very soon. I don't think there's any shame in it. It works. That's what we work on all

30:14day. Yeah. joined This is my first job. This is your first job. We're in an environment of like all high-performing entrepreneurs that are like entrepreneurs within this company. Yeah. And I think it's cool to have to see how you've evolved like over those years cuz you're only 21 but you started when you were 16. So you you made millions of dollars but you're been at the game for 5 years. Yeah. And this is the next step evolution. And so I think it's cool that to talk about cuz it is really interesting as a concept. And we're all just building these tools that we wish

30:37we had when we were 16. When I went to run ads when I was like 16 on Crypto Club Um I got banned immediately cuz I was 16. No, like I was making like 100 grand a month. I had nothing to spend the money on because I was 16. I had no idea how to like reinvest or do anything. It was like that business could probably be

30:54doing like 10 million dollars. Like Mhm. Now that I I see the the back end of a lot of these info companies, like that business very easily could be doing like 10 million dollars a year right now if I just like had the right setup back in the day. And so yeah, I'm build definitely once again, building a product out of necessity for like

31:11me at a certain time in my life. I think that's why no one understands Whop is cuz we're just like the Gen Z platform. And like the way that we have figured out how to use these different tools, the way we operate has just been so fundamentally different than the standard like Web 2 way of like building a standalone website like a Shopify store, that we're like putting all these different tools together and you don't really get it at the first, but like once you are running and operating the way that most kids operate their businesses, it's all these really useful modular tools that you can just use like

31:40come together and make sense. It's really fun. Like we're starting to talk to like these more mature companies, you know, very Silicon Valley companies and and they're like how like why are you guys doing this? Like how did this even come about? And I was like, well, 5 years ago we had this issue and like we built the solution to it. And then we realized a

31:58lot of people could use that solution. And then like 4 years ago we did the same thing in a different way. It's like literally the whole process of of building this company, it's been it's been really cool. I mean, Mo is a real soul, just if we're chilling Whop, if you want to work with

32:10him, he's hiring. Oh, yeah, it's an advertising. DM. What's your Twitter? Yeah, um my Twitter is I am the Moat. Okay. M O A T? Yeah, M O A T. Um spin off on my last name Motamedy. Um but yeah, hiring for killer engineers um and for killer go-to-market people that have experience in paid advertising and are very high agency. That's

32:34that's the team. We're growing quickly. Nice. I think it would be very fun to work under you. You you guys have like the best energy I would say. Every time I walk around like this team's like the loudest, most fun. Oh, thank you. It's cool, dude. I mean, it feels like I'm running like

32:46my own business. 100%. It does not feel like I'm working. We're building content or just like you have your own team, do your own thing. And but you're in a and you have people around you that are like the best at what they do. So, it's just like very cool environment. Intense, you have

32:57to perform. Very good It's good for you. So, I think that I guess I want to I kind of like talking to like Like I interview young kids like you. Like like 18 to 22-year-olds that made a million dollars. And I really like to understand like where Like if you were again that 16 or 17-year-old kid, like what would you do right now to start earning your

33:19first source of income online? Yeah. I think like like growing up like I was always kind of just like experimenting with like random and like trying things. Um and like I was kind of just like it was always kind of just like a thing of like oh, let me see if I can do that. It was not even like Yeah, making money was cool and I was like growing up I like loved cars. I still love cars and it's like those external um piece of motivation are really really helpful. Um but like in terms of what their actual like things to do now, it's like the

33:47game is changing so quickly and there's like friction barrier of entry is being dropped significantly across like the board. Um like when I was 13 around on things like I made a Shopify store and made like a fake AirPods store. Like that was like the entry point. Um and then like when I was 15 I was joining Discord communities and like learning how to like trade bots. The people in those ecosystems that were finding most successful were the ones

34:09that were making the infrastructure. People making the sneaker bots made millions of dollars. People using them made tens of thousands of dollars. Um and so it kind of now like flips the script a little bit where everyone can now become like a creator instead of like a like a like a prosumer in a sense. Um like I've invested in this like in this kid who was like 14 or 15 years old when I like gave him like it was like his first check and he's like had no coding experience, but he's like vibe coding and making apps on and like pushing them in the App Store and like

34:40making money on them. It's like so so wild. Like when I was 14, 15 years old, I never I would never like in order for me to have done that I would have had to either learn how to program and and create all these assets and do everything end to end myself, which would have taken months, or I would have to have done what I ended up doing, which is like make money to then pay people to work with you and and learn from them and and and execute on

35:05behalf of you and like alongside of you. Um but that approach that I took is kind of like no longer necessary. You You kind of like actually can do everything on your own. It's like honestly more time efficient to do everything on your own than even find like contract people. Um And so like things you can do, I mean, it's just like really endless. Like any idea you can just like turn into like an app or you turn into a website, turn into social media like content. Like content there's probably an arbitrage right now of like create automated content using things like C dance, um bring it over to TikTok and

35:40or like Instagram, make money off of it. Like there's so many ways to like take advantage of these little uh arbitrage opportunities. It's like AI has created like the way any business was ran before pretty much Claude Code came out November is thrown out the window. Now it's like what is the AI first version of every business?

35:58Yeah. And now it actually makes like people always said follow your passion is like aspirational motivation and I was usually like rich people saying that after they made their bag. Well, now it like actually makes sense where it's like, okay, you can literally monetize in any way. You can monetize the eyeballs on a specific topic. You can like make an actual software product with no code, just use AI. You can make a course, you can do a community, you can do any way of these ways of

36:21monetizing, sell physical products. Yeah. Anyway I monetize cuz it actually makes sense to choose an industry where you're like actually really interested in and just have a little bit of experience cuz that's going to be like your new advantage. Like I love Counter-Strike. So like if I wanted to make money online as a beginner, I'd probably start there cuz if I wanted to make ads in Counter-Strike, I would understand like the cultural references and like all of the memes and I'd be able to make better ads that just like a random person was. So it really does like you kind of just followed your interests. You were into sneakers, then

36:49you did Sneaker Body. You got into crypto, you found a way to monetize around that interest. But now you have the AI tools where you truly don't need a team. It's like that was all the barriers to entry that you had. I lost almost all my money when I was like 18, 19 years old because I I had to like in order to create the thing that I wanted to create, I either would have to spend years learning all of the skills of like solidity development, game development, etc. Or I would have to pay a bunch of like experts and it was like you no longer have to do that. Which is

37:12like really, really wild. Did you guys charge people to build maps for them? Like a retainer or like a scope of work? We did that once. We'd worked with Mark Pincus and he wanted to like experiment with with Yuga Labs we'd worked with him through an external agency that like sourced the deal. And um we did it once. It wasn't It wasn't like the best experience because there was like a scope of work that we were tied to, but in reality like like wasn't the best scope of work. And so we kind of like just executed what we were like paid to do, but like it wasn't that lit

37:42and we weren't like in love with it. But yeah, there is there is there is a there is a world in where we we had done that. I just think it's really interesting how you were like playing both sides. Like you had a service that you like cash flowed. So like you would do a scope of work where you built a map for someone, but then you were always trying to get the actual long-term like equity plays that like

38:01paid you monthly passively. Yeah. And so that was just I think that's a really cool parallel for people that are starting. Like you want you need something to give you cash flow. You just have to service like learn a skill, sell that service directly, operate, get cash flow, but then immediately have like one or two like long-term bet projects that you're working on. And then the second those get traction, just

38:19make the full transition. Yeah. If you set your goals initially like very like very reasonably, like you want to give yourself targets that you can hit. And then like once you start hitting those targets, you'll naturally find like the paths to to grow beyond it. Like when I first started off, like my goal was I wanted to make uh $10,000 in 6 months from sneaker reselling um to be able to pay for this

38:44car that I wanted. And I had and I had actually like achieved it. Like first 3 months I was like eating but then like I had started to like pick up pace. Um and then from that it was like it was not like I went from like I want to make $10,000 to I want to make a million. It was like I'll make $300 a day. And it was like a hundred grand a year or something that I it was like a reverse engineer like a hundred grand a year. I

39:02was like I want to make this much money. And it it just gives you something to like wake up and like go after and do. And so now it's like you take that same framework and you apply it to like product development and creation. Um it's just like the the progress is so much faster. Like I literally have like like my sister's, you know, deciding like like what path she wants to go down. She's like finishing up school right now and then determining what university she wants to go to and and um what job she wants to work at. And she's like I really want to be messing but I

39:29like I don't I don't want to do like 10-year thing cuz I have family and stuff. I'm like do realistically now like the traditional education system it's like very confined to work for everyone that goes through it not on like an individualized basis. You're very excited about something, the path of learning about it is so low now. You literally just have to be curious about something and then

39:48just ask an LLM. How do you do it? Yeah, just literally like you learn you learn about it from just like asking and it's like all almost all resources are like are are basically free and commoditized now. Like earlier my like my my strategy of like learning abstract skills um quickly was paying like consultants or like experts in a field like a good chunk of money for like a couple weeks to like teach me the ins and outs. You

40:13don't even like need to do that anymore. You just literally can ask Claude. You have intelligence in your pocket. I will say if you have if you're still hesitating on Claude or ChatGPT or whatever it is, like download the Claude app, go to the Claude code tab and say, "How do I build this app?" And then it's going to tell

40:27you, and then say, "Okay, build it." It'll build it. Like there's no training required. There's no setup required. Like you just literally talk to it and it will do anything. You can preview it right there visually. Yeah. You don't need to install anything in your terminal or any complicated stuff. Just download the app, hit the code tab,

40:41talk to it. You can do anything. It's so exciting. Now, I want to say something I'm fascinated about that you just brought up is you were like, "I'm going to set a reasonable goal." Yeah. I'm going to make $300,000. I'm going to make a million dollars. And one thing I've noticed on this podcast is every kid that I've interviewed that's made a million dollars in their late teens, early 20s, you just said that in a way that I that's assumed you could do it. Like you just meant you just said, "Yeah, I'll make a million dollars." Like there was no thought in your mind like what like,

41:06"No, I can't do that." But I think most people have like a mental block or like doubt that like, "I I'm 18. How am I going to make a million dollars?" They don't see that, but you just said it off the top like, "Yeah, no problem." So, do you have any like mental like what's like did you train yourself mentally to do that? Has that always been natural for you? How do

41:22you think about that? need like confidence in your ability to execute on on whatever the goal is. Um and like the only way you build confidence is by like actually doing the things that you say you're going to do initially, right? So, it's like I was very I definitely not have a lot of confidence growing up. But it was like I started doing things that like built that confidence. I would start start going to the gym. I started like doing these smaller things like, "All right, resell sneakers, make $10,000 in 6 months." Like early on, like I was not that that confident. Um I was just like,

41:48"I just need to do this thing because I was like so not confident that I wanted a car to like make me more confident." So, it's like That's the classic young man's dilemma. Yeah. Yeah, and so like I mean, you just build confidence and the only way you build confidence is by by like proving yourself you can do the things that um you set out to do. And so, it's like very I I like Yeah, like I was when I was younger, I was like, "Oh my god, I'm going to make a million dollars." And like I would go and do it and I would believe in myself. But like before that,

42:12I would not think that. Like, when I was first starting off, I was not thinking I'm going to make a million dollars. Like, I was I was like 16 and I was thinking, "Oh my god, the coolest thing would be if I was 25 and had this like sick apartment and had like a nice Mercedes." Like, that was like the life that I like was like manifesting and it's like you want to be you want to be realistic enough to like you want to be conservative enough early on to to give yourself the ability to actually do the things that you say because imagine the first thing you want

42:37to do. Like, you're 16, you're 18, you're you're either in high school, you're getting out of high school, you're getting into college, and you're like, "My goal is I'm going to do whatever it takes to make a million dollars by the end of this year." Like, okay, that's sick. Good luck. Good luck. Like, you could pull it off, but like if you don't and if you fail like on your face. Like, if you make a 100 grand that year, that's an amazing outcome. You're probably going to feel like though cuz you like wanted to

43:02make a million dollars. Mhm. Um and so, it's just like training yourself to like really Set realistic goals that are ambitious but realistic. Yeah. The delta now between like consumers and producers is going to be like ultra ultra hard. Like, ultra ultra aggressive, right? Like, everything is on a silver platter for anyone that

43:18doesn't want to do the hard work. One click away. Literally like my homework is one click away. My YouTube's one click away. My TikTok's one click away. My friends are one click away. Like, everything. Yeah. Yeah, food is one click away. It's like everything is on is at is at your fingertips now and and it is in every person that's a producer's best interest to make your life easier, right? Like, operating on making everyone's lives

43:38easier. Um but it's like that just makes it harder to break out of those like very easy habits and like you're the day-to-day that's going to hold you back. And like the the the delta the side that's going to be producing things is going to be so aggressive because the resources to succeed are continually be made in your in their favor. Like, the things we are making at WAP are going to be made in the favor of the people that make an initiative to better themselves and that have the discipline to continue to do the hard things. And so like it's like tricking your brain into

44:10being rewarded through the hard things by like setting you breadcrumb yourself like as if it's a video game. It's like, all right, let me make $100 today. Like you could probably do that like driving Uber and that's a win. But it's like you know, it's um the resources made available to people that like actually put themselves through hardship. It's just weird. It's so insane now. It is so crazy. It's like you'll start with I want to make a TikTok channel that makes a million views so I can make sure I can be in like a creator program and make like $1,000 a month and then it's like you

44:41learn you just learned how to automate something that 5 years ago would have costed you so much money and a team of people. That skill set will now carry over to your next thing of like I want to make an app that teaches people how to do that and and and um I want to make a $10,000 a month from that. Like that skill set of like rallying a team and rallying people to get behind a vision of yours is going to compound to when you need more people and it's like you just you just want to put yourself in position to learn skills that are going

45:05to compound and and and it's easier than ever now but like also harder than ever. Yeah, 100%. I mean I have to like I have two phones, one with social media, one without. The one with social media is just the one I can post. I do not like I know I do not have the discipline to open my phone and not hit Instagram and scroll Reels or look at Twitter. Like Twitter's the most addicting thing ever and it will genuinely make you depressed

45:26within 3 days. Yeah, I mean it's like it's like discipline but like you could also say like like if like everyone was like grew up on meth Yeah. then like Yeah. If like everyone grew up on meth and then it's like it's like the discipline thing to not take meth. It's like that's literally what these things are. Like these are literally they're they're the smartest people in the world are not like trying to find the cures to these diseases. They're like trying to make these apps more

45:48addicting. They're trying to make them like casinos. They use like research on casinos in your social media So it's not like a discipline thing to like have TikTok on your phone and then decide not to go on it. Like it's impossible. Like I don't have these apps on my phone. I I have I have like screen time blockers that I that my brother in a different state has the password to and like I have to look like a idiot if I want to call him and tell me to give me the screen time password cuz I want to use Tik Tok. So it's just like just have to

46:10Isn't that strange that we have to like they are so addictive and so easy to access that we have to physically block ourselves from the impulse to check them. Yeah, my my team and I were talking about this. It's like imagine doing your job so well. Like your UX is so good that like people are feening to use your your experience even behind like a five minute wall. Like my my my my screen time blockers are not just like I only have five minutes on it a day. It's like I need to wait a minute for opening the app. This app is called Space, which is

46:37like a YC company, which I didn't know before I started using it. Like shout out to them. Like it's like 30 sec there's a 30 second delay before you click on the app before you can open it. And then you have to say how long you want to spend on it before you open it. It's like and I still when I'm like on the toilet, I'm like that's what I'm looking forward to. I mean so You find yourself clicking without even thinking. You like like all the I'll use it for a week, delete the app, and then I find myself clicking where the empty

46:59spot was. Well, like I the first the first step in like trying to like break myself out of the those habits was let me put the screen time limit on it. Let me only using screen for 20 minutes a day. But what I noticed is like I would either burn through it in the first like 10 minutes of the like the first part that I woke up because I didn't realize it was so addicting. I just wake up, go on it, burn through my entire limit. I'd be what the Okay, now I don't have Instagram the rest of the day. This

47:19sucks. Um and then when I started to become aware of that, I would start being very conscious of okay, I only want to use the app for like a minute. And so I'd open it and then really quickly close it. But that would like destroy my train of thought and it would make it really easy for like any time that I had any hard thought in my brain, I would immediately open Instagram for five seconds. Look at my notifications. Did anyone follow me? Did anyone like a story? Did anyone like post

47:40Narcissism just triggered. And and like immediately close the app. Or I open it like all right, did this girl post a story? Did this guy post a story? It's like immediately close it. That that thing that I was looking for wasn't there. Okay, goodbye. I'll check back in the literally five minutes and I

47:50do the same thing without realizing it. And so it was like Yeah, like I just had to you just have to put the blocker before it because your brain like doesn't even realize it's doing these things. Like when you put a 30-second blocker before it, you're like you click it and you're like You have to like what the am I doing? Yeah, what am I like that's that's like the biggest unlock. The people that are intentional with their time in this day and age will be the people that dominate and like are on the in the 1% that like other people are going to be like, "Oh my god, like they're so uh

48:18you know, entitled. They're in the 1% blah blah blah." It's like, "No, you just literally most cases you just need to be intentional with your time and like you will end up being like an overachiever and have funny results. My mental framework for that is like I have 100 dopamine points a day that I

48:30got to use. Yeah. And I can either open Instagram for 15 minutes in the morning and use 10 of them right out the gate. Yeah. Or I could just go straight to my computer and write for 2 hours and get like a slower stream of like the dopamine from productivity. Yeah. It's like you have to like really be conscious and intentional with the way you're using your dopamine. By the end of the day, you're exhausted if you are using them all before you need to do your real work. Your real work's going to be boring. You're never going to be able to start because all your

48:53dopamine's gone. Yeah, I saw a clip one time of a podcast. It was like I think it was Joe Rogan or someone talking about like "Oh, like my life changed when like someone asked me if I could remember the five last videos I was watching on TikTok." Yeah, that that one's dark, dude. It's like And then and then the funny like I work with my engineers and like my like the people on my team like sales people and stuff and I'm like go on your screen time right now. Like the first thing I do like after like maybe a week or two of them working with me so it's not like

49:18so uh jarring. Then I'm like open your screen time and it'll be like 2 hours on TikTok today or like an hour on Snapchat, an hour on Instagram. And I'm like, "Yo, if you can tell me 10 of the videos you watched during those 2 hours, you should keep watching you should keep you should keep using TikTok. They can't say it. I'm like, "Now imagine if you watched a movie

49:36Mhm. in those 2 hours. You'd be able to tell me the plot end to end." Mhm. It's like Interesting. Because like the big difference is like you want to be intentional with your time but you want to consume things that like other people are being intentional with and it's like a very high high effort thing. Like that's how you better your brain. You're not going to get better by by making by consuming a piece of content that took someone 30 seconds to film in most cases. Like it's very unlikely that that piece of content unless you're talking unless it's a snippet of Elon Musk talking like which

50:03is there's not a lot of that. Like if you're watching a video that took someone 30 seconds to make or like 5 minutes of thought to make, probably going to be like 5 minutes of effort that you're going to be able to gain from it versus like a movie it's like someone poured years of their

50:17their life into it. Art. Yeah, it's like a three-hour project. Yeah. Like learn from it and you learn like storytelling. You learn like these practices. Um like you're just like you're training your brain on the opposite of everyone else. Um And and and so yeah, so I'll I'll be like, "Dude, if you can tell me these videos, like you should keep it. If not, then most people are like once they even hear that though, they're like, "Holy fuck." Like they want it. They want to

50:38change their habits. Whenever I like I always started this people ask me about Daniel Bitton quite a bit. Oh, big deal. When I like right when I had him he was 15 years old. It's like such a remarkable story and like the only way I can describe him like just imagine you gave a toddler Instagram Reels or TikTok but with only business

50:54Reels and the right advice. Yeah. And he only consumed that. By the age he was 15 so he could just recite every right mental framework word for word. Yeah. And that's how you get Daniel Bitton. Yeah, he's great. Cuz he's so unbelievably wise for like he's now 18. Now he owns Concert Wars which is awesome. But just so incredible to see his like decision-making so clearly. Same as Zack Adagar. Like just such clear decision-making. Everything seems so

51:18simple. Yeah. That's how I think of it. Like they must have just like got the right algorithm. Yeah, you're just really lucky. You just like get the right algorithm and you're blessed. But then like there's there's the inverse where it's like you liked a little too many videos of like a brain rot meme or like someone shaking their ass and then you're The first three TikTok scrolls are life

51:35or death. Yeah, literally life changing determinant. Like are you going to get Joe like Elon Musk talking about like the bottlenecks in his things that he does in his day day? Are you going to get like OF girls and like milk? We're laughing but it is kind of dark. No, it's crazy. It's pride. It's so good. It starts in the generation we live in. So yeah, I mean I hopefully if you're watching this you're probably investing in trying to have the right algorithm. It is hopefully you take from this every successful person I talk to has become extremely aware that these are designed to addict you and you need

52:02to do everything in your power to add safeguards between your impulse to use them. Yeah. Even like fast food on DoorDash. Like it's easier to get fast McDonald's in 5 minutes than Well, that's what the boop does. It's like, you know. Which is like you just need accountability. It's like like I would like until I like had a whoop and like the next morning after I ate like I slept like and I'm like, "Whoa, what the fuck?" And the only thing that was different was that I ate like that day. And so you just like stop wanting to like It took me way too long to realize that

52:24I ate bad food and that made me tired. Like I remember calling my mom thinking I need blood work. Yeah. And I was like, "No, I'm just eating Canes every day." Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's it's like really bad it's also gets eaten way easier to spot. Like once if you eat healthy for like a week and then you eat like it's like, "Dude, your day's Mhm. Like actually the worst thing

52:39ever." And the amount that you eat. Like every uh serving size in America is like 3,000 calories just so they could charge you more. You think you're supposed to finish your meal cuz that's what your parents told you when you're like six. Yeah. So you think you need I thought I needed to finish like my whole Caniac Combo. And then no, I'll just fall asleep. This is like when I was 20 but I remember that very vividly. Like, "Whoa, if you eat healthy food you have

53:00more energy." Yeah, there's so like there's so much money in everything now. It's like having visibility on like what um those things like do and like how they impact you is like so is like We got the food pyramid, dude. 11 servings of carbs. I was told that when I was eight. I'm like, "No, don't do

53:14that." That's horrible advice. Who told me that? 11 servings of carbs, dude. I was Nap time. Nap time is the Sponsored by the wheat association of America. It actually was. They sponsored by uh corn flakes. Literally though, they literally funds just breakfast? strategy for them to fund research and then it's that's the research result and they pay for every single high school to

53:37put that in their school. like everything is literally everything is a business. And when you realize that and you realize that everything is built to like either make your life more convenient to to then capitalize on you or like take advantage of of you to then capitalize on you, it's like you I like being an entrepreneur helps me realize like so much when people are like just taking advantage of me. I'm like 100% Woah, I would do that if I wanted to get someone to pay pay me more money. So,

54:01you. I always say that like the real benefit of being on reading books is just to know when someone's using that information Yeah. on you. And you're like I've read that. I know exactly what that How to win friends and influence people. Hey Brett, like I love your shirt today, Brett. a compliment out the gate.

54:17Yeah. I'm like sucks. a loser. That's so funny, bro. All right, well, I want to end the podcast on a positive note. This has been a really fun conversation. Do you have anything inspiring or anything I don't know you think anybody should know cuz I really like to hear your advice here the last

54:31like 20 minutes. Oh, thank you. Um I don't know. I think like the world is uh changing a lot right now and you should probably be on the on the side of it that's that's more of aware of it and then and is um leveraging it to to push yourself forward than be taken advantage of of people that are are are leveraging those those tools. And um if you're on that that former side, um then hit me up if you want to work on really cool things that um building a lot of building a lot of excavators to get rid of a lot of people using shovels. So, that's a what

55:02we're doing. Bars, bro. All right, Nicholas Motamedi. Yes. Is it Motamedi? M E D I? Motamedi. All right, Nicholas Motamedi. Bang. Very fire having you on. Thank you so much. You're a G. Hell yeah, bro.