An Unconventional Way to Validate Your Product Idea – Justin Jackson – MicroConf Starter 2018

0:00[Music] [Applause] and yeah so I'm going to probably talk a little bit about myself as we go through the week for now I'm a my Justin on Twitter and you don't have to do this with me but just so you know when speakers are up here if you mention them while you're watching you know a that was a good quote or anything just that's a great way to show some love for the people up front here's a little bit of history about me i-i've been doing sass for ten years starting 2008 when I was 28 years old in 2015 I wrote a book called marketing for developers is anyone read that

0:49anyone here oh no whoa thank you and that allowed me to go full time as a solopreneur in 2016 and I can remember wanting to do that forever like listening to Mike and Rob in my car while I was driving an hour to work and be like I can't wait till I can go independent and that happened two years ago and this year I'm building a brand new podcast hosting application with my buddy John I'll tell you a bit more about that later but this is the title I gave my talk an unconventional way to validate your product idea and you might have looked at that and gone well what's

1:32so unconventional about it and I'm gonna tell you but to illustrate it I want to tell you a story you guys okay with a story right now all right let's tell the story I started snowboarding in 1995 15 years old anyone here snowboard - all right put your hands down how many skewers we got here lame no I'm just doing so started snowing in 1995 and and almost immediately I started dreaming look at that punk kid there 15 year old Justin frosted tips almost immediately I started dreaming about opening my own snowboard shop and in 2003 made that dream happen I opened snowboard shop with three four sorry two

2:23friends and this was a huge mistake this is our Grand Opening announcement what is this May 1st 2003 was our Grand Opening the real deal and in 2005 we closed the shot and I don't know has anyone here been in retail before I don't you don't realize how much money it takes to start a shop even a little one and once we've gotten rid of all of our unused inventory paid suppliers paid employees paid to get out of our lease all those things I was eighty five thousand dollars in debt that's 25 and it really sucks and I'd like to tell you what I learned from that because I think

3:13it applies to us as we're building digital product businesses there's a lot of similarities lesson one choosing the right customer is more important than what you sell let me illustrate snorters sorry I put another way snowboarders are fun to hang out with but they make shitty customers and here's a picture that will tell you everything you need to know about my customers this is poplar that's his real name and here's my buddy snowboard buddy used to hang out great snowboarder but he does it look like this guy who has money no he spent all of his money basically on food and a lift ticket he was like a

4:03ski bum believe it or that I hired this guy and we have all sorts of stories about fakhla but one hotel is we had this like high kind of rafters area and one day I went up to like clean it and I saw a sleeping bag a pipe and some Doritos and I was like what is going on here and I realized that fakhla was living in the snowboard shop so if you're trying to sell it snowboards not a great customer who you sell to matters a lot lesson two starting small is almost always better than going big and you know like when I was dreaming as a

4:51teenager about having a shop this is what I pictured you know fancy lights nice fixtures hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of inventory but in truth I should have started like this Hawking snowboards out of a van or a truck or something because the lessons you learn when you start small are and what you experience when you start small it just gets magnified when you go big so you get to discover do I like this customer what's it like serving a bunch of Fockers you know what's it like ordering all this inventory you get to experience all of that when it's small and the stakes aren't as high and so if you

5:35decide to get out like I don't like this it hasn't cost you as much right and this is I'm going to quote Derek servers a lot he's basically you don't need to listen to me just bring up servers org and read that long I'm talking but he has this quote for an idea to get big it needs to start small lesson three I think the way we start businesses historically is wrong and you know this is kind of the way I started the real deal right biz plans Pro this is this has been around forever you have a dream you launch it and then you make money

6:15alright that's the idea and this has been around for a long time and we've started to figure out this doesn't always work isn't always effective so we've we've modified it a bit it's evolved so we went to biz and pro 2000 and now it's like have a good idea validate it launch it and then you make money but even this is not enough and this is what I mean when I say I think I'm going to present an conventional way to validate your product idea it's not enough to have an idea do a bit of validation and launch it you need more than product market fit

6:58that's kind of my thesis for this whole talk and I think you actually need three things market founder fit product market fit and founder sorry product founder fit so market founder fit is exactly that who are my customers do I like them are they easy to reach are these people that I want to serve every single day for the rest of my life right product market fit that's what we all want that's we're all looking for you know it's having a good market and then finding a product that satisfies that market and then the third one a lot of people don't think about this product founder fit is this product

7:43a good fit for what I want is it a good does it match up with my values does it get me where I want to go all right I put this in here to remind me to breathe doing a lot of meditation these days trying to calm myself down all right that's enough talking about me I'm gonna quickly talk about you folks here why are you here I want you guys this is audience participation you're going to put up your hands when I ask you so how many of you are here because you want to find a product idea put up your hands nice and high that's a night don't be

8:21shy all right put them down how many of you are here because you need to choose a target market put up your hands nice and high all right put them down how many of you are here because you want to validate your product idea that you already have put your hands up okay there's a lot of participation over here I don't know what's going on over here I only got one more so you guys better lift your hand how many of you are here you've launched but you want more customers all right all right so I'm going to try to help all you folks with a product validation

8:56roadmap and it's based on all my years of experience doing sass it's based on my two years being solo but it's also I think we have an interesting time in my history because I've just launched a new sass with my buddy John called transistor dot F M so I've got some history I've made some mistakes I've learned some things and now in some ways I'm right where a lot of you are at because I'm launching this brand new thing so this is gonna be a step by step approach for identifying who you are and what you want choosing a market discovering what they want and shipping solution are you guys

9:36ready this is sound good you guys are with me how about you right there are you with me okay good here we go section one you might want to bring out some paper and a pen for this because I'm going to ask you some very personal questions and question number one what's your motivation for wanting to build a product I've been doing these coaching calls where people call me they pay to call me and what they want often is they want me to validate their product idea which is a bad idea I kind of my call the other day with this kid is a handsome kid you know it curly hair and

10:15I said okay well what are you what are you doing he's like well I want to do arbitrage for a cryptocurrency and I'm like I have no effing idea what you're talking about like I'm you're I am NOT your target market but what I could ask him is what do you want what do you want to get out of this what's your motivation and if you haven't written this down I want to build a product so that I can what you want to quit your job you want to spend more time with your kids you want a snowboard more you want to I don't travel more you want to

10:52have more wealth what do you want because there's no sense in going through this whole product validation process if you don't know what you're aiming for and you'll never know if this product is a good fit for your life unless you've written this down so write this down I want to build a product so that I can blank question number two is what do you value James clear has this great list of core values you can go there to get the full list but you know creativity impact integrity adventure family wealth spirituality peace what do you value and this is important because you want to make sure

11:33this matches up with whatever product you decide to pursue or what market you tried to pursue if you want peace don't serve a bunch of marketing jackasses like me right we're gonna make your life chaotic here's another question people don't ask very often how rich do you want to be and it's important you know do you want to be very wealthy are you shooting for a million dollars a year higher than average 300k a year financially secure 150 K a year maybe you just need your basic needs met 50k 200 write this out what are you aiming for okay so we've just talked about you talked about what you want and

12:21the next stage instead of just saying you know I want to do this or I have an idea to do this I'm gonna advise that you choose the group you want to serve who do you want to serve a great business isn't really about you in your dream that was the problem with the real deal that was my dream it was all about me a great business is about helping your customers achieve their dreams right so don't start with an idea start with a group of people you want to help and you really need to do this figure out who you want to serve and here's a

13:05little tip this is something I've learned recently just talking to a lot of founders being involved in a lot of SAS businesses doing a lot of consulting some markets are just bigger easier to reach and more profitable than others so it pays to think about this it pays to do some research now before you launch anything and here's a few ideas for finding your market all you folks that put up your hand for looking for a target market how do you currently make a living what kind of customers do you serve at work you know these are the people already paying for your expertise what communities do

13:42you belong to what do you do better than anyone else those are like good like places to look if you're already in the banking industry as a laravel developer well you've got the banking industry they're already paying you and you're also a part of the laravel community right here's an example Ian Landsman I like Ian there's a few people in this community that just will not put up with my [ __ ] and Ian's one of them but he got the idea for a help spot when he was working at a college because their support desk system was a mainframe with a terminal connected to it and it was all like

14:23command line based and it was just a pain and he thought there has to be some a better way to do this and so he built something in the browser he called it help spot and guess who his first customers were colleges and universities why he was working for a college and he was working for a college so the the where you work can often be a good place to start factors to consider how do they spend money do they spend money how big is the market and how easy are they to reach here's another great example Bjorn forsberg he decided to target Shopify stores why there's 500,000 plus stores

15:13paying $29 to 299 299 dollars a month that's a good market we know it's big we know they spend money and we also know that on average they spend another $30 per month on add-ons in the Shopify app store so Bjorn built a couple Shopify apps and he's doing about two hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars and revenue every year a lot of it is that he chose the right market how easy are they to reach I'll use atom lab and he's speaking right after me but atom Levin's got a great market really it's PHP developers specifically those that want to learn laravel but that's a lot of

16:04people and are they easy to reach yeah Adam says that a lot of his business comes from Twitter so he can hang out on Twitter and he has a direct channel to his market there's also events like Larrick on where you can go and you can meet them face to face there's online communities like lera casts so you want to make sure your market is easy to reach right if you're if your markets I know Tibetan monks who don't use computers that might be tricky right all right section three this is the one everyone wants to skip customer research now you've chosen your market now you've

16:45got to research them what are the big pain points that already exist in this market so Bjorn was like man it's really hard to print shipping labels for Shopify stores so that's the first app you made how did he figure that out he was in the forum's day after day after day and he noticed it kept kind of bubbling up what are the things that are bubbling up simmering in the community or the market you're targeting what do they search on Google you know what kinds of questions are they asking everyday there's a few tools you can use to figure some of this stuff out product

17:24validator calm is a brand new one answer the public is another one href is another one but this is what product validator looks like I put in podcasting I go to that questions tab and then it gives me a bunch of common frequently asked questions these are helpful you know there might be some pain points in here I want to address and I'm this is what I'm asking the other thing you should do that no one wants to do I'm I am diverted as hell I've been here since Sunday for growth I have not stopped talking since then even I don't like getting on the phone and interviewing

18:03customers I know it's hard or potential customers but you have to do it because the the information you get while you're on the phone with someone just it doesn't compare to anything you can maybe get on just watching people on Twitter or guessing you actually get them on the phone here's a few things that have worked for me they might not work for you but I write case studies for my blog and that's a great way to get someone on the phone hey I want to do a case study on you for my blog can we do a phone call here's one this is an email I wrote Pelle I was

18:38writing a book and I wanted to feature him it's just a great excuse to get him on the phone right and so we had a Skype conversation and I was able to ask him some of these questions hey what are you working on right now what's something you're looking to improve with in his case balsamic this year what's something you'd like to accomplish but can't what's holding you back oh this number three just right number three down because it shows so much what was the last product service or tool you bought for work if they can't think of something then maybe they don't buy products and maybe that's a bad market

19:19right after I heard I can't remember well hmm what's your least favorite tool that you have to use right now what kind of tasks are you currently doing in Excel that's a really good one and what product you wish existed but doesn't yet and again you're just looking for the trends what keeps coming up over and over again this is an example from micro comps I type gdpr into slack and a bunch of things pop up it's a hot topic you can see the pain right people are struggling with this and so if you are a compliance person or whatever maybe this is a good thing for you to focus on it

20:04might be a bit late now but this is what I'm saying like the the examples you're looking for oh yeah also in forums this was a coaching client I had he's like sorry I have to cancel I have to wait until after this gdpr hell you know it just keeps it coming up over and over and over again you're like man there's something here so then you summarize your research what patterns emerged what would you say this is a patio 11 thing he says focus on the number one or two thing that is on someone's mind it's like they wake up that week and they're going to work and

20:39they're like ah I gotta solve this and I gotta solve this or this thing's in my way and this thing's in my way those are the things you want and what would it mean for them if you solve that struggle what would it mean for you them if you saw that struggle you've been just looking at that now it connects to the human beings right we're not just putting apps out into the world we're solving problems for real human beings like real people that get up and put on a shirt and get into their car and drive to work like those are the people were serving right okay section four write

21:15out your hypothesis and I've had a version of this last year and I improved on it so if you came back this is a better version of the one I gave last year this group wants this outcome but struggle with this thing I can help them by and then you just daydream what are some ways I could help them with what I have right now like how could I help these people and if I did what would their life look like after so just using podcasting as an example you know many tech businesses want a branded podcast but they struggle with getting listeners I can help them by and then I just start

21:53DJ improving their show art and description getting them more ratings and reviews making their episodes easier to share what would their life look like well now their podcast has more downloads and their business has more brand awareness right section 5 are you guys still with me and what still awake feeling good all right start helping now again Derek Siver's the sage if you want to be useful you can always start now with only 1% of what you have in your grand vision doesn't this sound like something like the real deal a little bit you know the snow workshop it'll be a humble prototype version it'll be a

22:35humble prototype version of your grand vision but you'll be in the game and so I want you to ask what's the smallest possible thing you could do that would validate your hypothesis so here's again here's my hypothesis right for podcasting ok what could I do now well I could start a consulting service right I could start DMing people and say hey I heard you want to start a show I'm really good at reading titles and descriptions and making show art what if you pay me I know 400 and 400 bucks for that and I'll do that for you right that's something I could do right now no

23:09code needed no funding needed I could create a video tutorial I could sell it for 39 bucks I could do that right now I could create a wordpress plugin that pulls in reviews and ratings from around the world and shows it in WordPress site pretty simple not too much work right I could create a podcast title tester right just a simple utility maybe something I could build in a couple days or a week what could I build right now that might test this out and this is just so true everyone wants to jump to big big big but starting small puts a hundred percent of your energy on actually

23:51solving real problems for real people human beings these people you're going to serve all right after you've done this if you actually do this by the way if you actually do this you will have results you at least have some information about whether you should keep going or not and now you can evaluate results what does initial validation look like you put something like this out into the world so if I said hey I'll do your show titles and descriptions and you pay me that's pretty good validation I know that there's people out there that are willing to pay that kind of service pre-orders are pretty good too

24:33email address is kind of like the bare minimum if you can get someone to give you their email address that's pretty good validation I like this quote too because you know a lot of people try to ask folks for what they want and the truth is people can't really articulate what they want it takes a lot of research you got to do a lot of observation you got to read between the lines you got an interview but when you interview you have to say ask questions like well what was the last product you bought for work how did you find it those kinds of things a great example of

25:11this from microcon floor is Jason Cohen of WP engine and as the story goes before he built WP engine he done his research he'd chosen the market he'd observed all these struggles and then he thought okay how am I gonna validate this so he would go and pitch this to people just like you and I was like hey I got this idea to build WordPress a wordpress hosting system that's scalable that doesn't crash when there's a bunch of traffic that has really good security you know it'll automatically disable plugins if they get infected would you pay for this and if they said oh yeah yeah I totally pay for this he said okay

25:51can you write me a check right now for your first month and he didn't cash it but having that validation of that check was like okay I'm on the right track people are willing to write me a check for something that doesn't exist right there's some other trends you can also look for they're not quite validation but they're good signals what's your target market investing in so in the podcasting space I noticed rework I missed our base camp just launched this rework podcast hired two full-time people and built a podcast studio in the office I'm guessing it's like 200 grand a year that's a pretty big investment right

26:31that's a good sign what's getting a lot of publicity right now you got to be careful with this but sometimes you know the publicity is a good sign that there's something happening there's something bubbling underneath the surface and what are people struggling with it you just keep seeing stuff over and over again on Twitter and slack slack especially if you're doing client work how many of you are doing client work and you're in your clients slack put up your hands you got to put on your researcher hats and just see all the product decisions that are being made and slack and note those down there talking about what they're gonna buy

27:07right how do they make those decisions what are the struggles they're having in there okay so I'm going to summarize the process and I want to thank Rob walling for coming up with a stair-step model I've modified it a little bit but this is Rob's original idea at the base level you start with a small free offering free tool tutorial resource kind of what I said if that works out you go to the next level right small paid offering service plug-in workshop if that works go to the next level build a simple product that delivers value if that works go up to the next level put more features in charge more do a

27:52bigger launch and I'm going to kind of wind down and show you how this has worked with transistor and I think I'll have some time for questions so if you have if you've had questions so far that you've noted down about product validation note those right now because I think I'll have some time for questions so here's how it's worked for transistor first of all I had a built-in advantage remember at the beginning when I said who are you right like what are your strengths what are your values what do you want well one of my strengths and advantages is I was already podcasting I've been podcasting since 2012 this is

28:32my first show I did with Kyle Fox called product people this is my new show called mega maker and I just launched another show called build your sass which is actually terrible name for it because people can't tell if it's like SAS isn't sassy or it doesn't work audibly as well but I had this is an advantage you know I've been podcasting for a long time I had already seen some of the trends some of the struggles and I also noticed something else that was really interesting so I eventually I was getting a lot of people requesting like phone calls Skype to pick my brain and

29:11it just became too much and so I came up with this rule I said I I live so I live in British Columbia not in Vancouver I live like right in the middle of nowhere like mountains and trees and and I said if you make it to vernon bc i will buy you a coffee and it just cut down on all the requests quite a bit but surprisingly a lot of people have done this already in 2018 i think i've had four people do this and some people fly in for it's crazy and in each case i'll take them out for coffee will sit down and they'll look at me and they'll go

29:53Justin this is so weird I said well why I'm saying I've been listening to you for years and I feel like I have a relationship with you but we've never talked and that trend that the fact that it impacted people like that that podcasting impacted people like that made me feel like huh there might be something here maybe this is worse worth investing in as a product it motivates people there's something going on here the other thing I noticed is when I launched marketing for developers 75% of the people who bought were podcast listeners how many of you have ever listened to a podcast that I've done I

30:36just want to see oh holy [ __ ] Wow okay thank you so it's a powerful medium so before I even got to base level I already had some experience I had some ground level experience right then I started doing some blog posts and tutorials on podcasting and they did really well in fact most of my stuff isn't very SEO friendly but the stuff I was doing in podcasting was getting a lot of search traffic this is good this is a good sign after that I congratulate ax doing some paid courses around podcasting Xand paid courses around doing branded content that was doing really well and

31:21then I just noticed this trend of all these businesses launching podcasts start up this is essentially a branded content piece for gimlet creative right I'm sorry given gimlet media code Penn has a podcast there's all these tech companies that are starting podcasts it's the it's a new channel for them and then in the growth conference Brian castle was saying sixty four point three five percent that is so precise of his customers came from hearing him on a on a podcast really good signs all right so we're noticing okay there's some movement here we've got some initial validation oh people are willing to pay for this well people are investing a lot

32:10of money in branded podcasts so then we built an initial version of transistor on FM we did it in about six weeks I say we but John built it and then we sold one paid plan two cards against humanity' and a lot of people say how did you get this customer well John works for cards against humanity' right that goes back to what I was saying where are you who's already paying you for your time and expertise so this was a great first customer to have this customer this shows done really well they've done about three million downloads since they launched and the feedback was so good that we said okay

32:49oh and the other trend that we noticed this kind of came up while we were doing this Google is now ranking and crawling audio so they're they're transcribing it in the background and then showing in search results and if you're on android they'll actually show you the audio episodes in search results - that's a good sign for branded content right you get a sense of how I'm like kind of layering this up like man this looks good this looks good this looks good and so after all of that we decided to add some more features add some billing features like be able to charge people without sending them an

33:31invoice and then open up early access and we did that in the last two months and this is kind of what the product looks like today and this is what our early access invites look like and this is my last slide we're right now we have about 56 people John told me to turn off the early access we were getting too many so we had 56 early access customers they have to put their credit card in and already there's a 14-day trial and already 39 people have converted to paid plans and so that's how we validated transistor so far and that's it that's all I got for you thanks for listening

34:11guys oh I should say I've got my slides here and if you want more in depth if you I go beyond this for in terms of you get initial validation and then you build your MVP etc product validation checklist comm does anyone have any questions there any questions about any of that process put up your hand if you do and they'll pass around the mic questions for Justin anything ever knows exactly what to do everyone knows what to do now

34:57Justin who's your favorite American podcaster Adam Clark for sure Adams got a great show by the way I gently man you guys should check it out I didn't have a real question yeah no that's great that's great so sorry go ahead no you're good all right what are you so if you've launched something new you've already got it going like in my situation I've already got a handful of customers and you're saying all this stuff and I'm like and those really good ideas why didn't I do those things but yeah you know you've already got some traction you know I've already got some movement that seems like okay so this is

35:40a good idea is it worth going back and I don't know applying suppose I don't know is it worth if you're already two months in with six to ten customers you feel like things are going good is worth going back and doing any of those things that you just said yeah I think it is because there's just so much future pain especially if you don't figure out the personal questions what do I want what do I value how much money do I want to make because if this thing keeps growing and it doesn't match up with your values and there's just story after story of people who just ended up in a lot of

36:24pain because of that so I think it's worth going back and you might still have time to do some little pivots right now with what you're doing to make conscientious decisions so that you know this does match up with my values I'll tell you a quick story about this I had a guy that was in charge of the legal gambling for British Columbia like he was the operator that did all the games and everything and then he India came to him and said we have a rampant like illegal gambling problem here we need somebody to come and like do legal gambling in India and they said I think

37:04normal operator costs are like 0.5 percent of revenue like they get 0.5% of revenue India said we'll give you 30% of revenue the first year and then down to twenty tenth like it was insane and he's like Justin you're good dude you should come work with me on this startup and I thought about I'm like and he's like it's gonna be a lot of money you know it's gonna and I just couldn't see myself coming to Micro Kampf and people saying what do you do I mean going well I do gambling in India you know it just didn't and that might be fine for some people but it didn't match up with my

37:38values and so I think asking those questions whatever stage you're at you can almost have to keep asking them forever like does this still match up with what I want does this still match up with my values so I think it's worth doing that work right hey Justin hey great presentation and congrats on your success transistor so far thanks this may be a dumb question but I'm just gonna ask it is b2b b2c SAS always a bad idea oh I mean that the common answer is yes but there's there's definitely people that make it work I should have actually said that a lot of what I'm talking

38:18about applies to b2b just because it's so like when you're working with consumers it's it's more like what do they desire you know like look at the SAS that or the recurring revenue businesses that really work it's like Netflix it's almost always Spotify Apple music there's a few exceptions but it's almost always like some sort of desire right it's just harder to deliver that especially for your bootstrapper now prosumers I think are a little bit different right so if you have a prosumer market that can sometimes work but I one thing like decision we made with transistor is I used to say the podcast market was terrible because it's

39:06all DIY errs and hobbyists right they're like want to do it themselves they don't have very much money what one of the reasons I decided you know to pursue transistor was that I saw all of this movement with companies investing in podcasts and to me that's just a better market I can charge more they're not as finicky honestly when I started in SAS we had a we had a $10 product for kind of consumers prosumers and we had $100 product for industry they're essentially the same and we got five times more support requests from the $10 product same product same functionality but just way more support load so those would be

39:52some things to consider for sure um hey Justin I'm gonna fly to British Columbia so I guess I will take you up on the coffee mmm in June yeah come on down so my question is can you talk about talk a little bit about when you formulate your hypothesis did you have parameters for failures and how did you come up with those so is there like a time period where you go oh I'm gonna talk to X number of people in in the next Y months yeah Zed needs to happen obviously I'm Canadian that's why it said yeah yes how do you say JavaScript get him get him back on the

40:33mic make him say um JavaScript Oh see now you're wrong so the only benefit of launching a hundred things in a year is you get a sense for what kind of works and pops and so obviously I'm different than you I'm different than we're all different right and for me it's much more of a feeling now because I worked in SAS for a long time then I launched a bunch of things you know in the past couple years I've seen kind of what worked and I've had all of these consulting calls now and I've been able to see a big range of things and I can

41:16almost sit oh wow if for example if I don't get 500 people to a waiting list for like a landing page and get them to sign up for the idea I'm kind of like oh that's a bad sign for me but it really depends on the market depends on a lot of things so those general rules are difficult but I'm kind of over time developed a sense of okay is this working and I think you can still do that that's why starting small is so great so let's just say you launch a landing page for an idea you spell out this is who it's for this is

41:53what they're struggling with this is how I'm going to help them overcome the struggle and 200 people sign up the first email you send them I should have had this in my slides is this is from Joanna Wiebe I stole this question from her what's going on in your life that brought you here today look why did you sign up for a thing on the internet with your email address right there must be something going on and those stories that you get back are so helpful as you develop a relationship with those people that reply to your email eventually you might be able to say hey if I did that work for you

42:28manually would you pay me if they say yes or no you're gonna get this kind of a sense do you do you know what I mean it's gonna be hard for us me to give like just blanket rules though about like failure looks like this or success looks like this you really kind of have to feel it out for yourself and a lot of it depends on you and what you want does that kind of help ya there so there is some yeah so for me my wife and I have four kids I have two I know the idea has to be big enough that I'm going to be

43:06able to support my family on it that's one how much money is kind of in this market what kind of price points are they already paying for similar things so we're I mean and we still were validating this right now but our idea is that what WP engine is to Bluehost we want to be to other podcast hosting applications so we have an example of OWP engine launched this higher-end service and people were willing to pay more for it so there's some examples out there of oh people are really willing to pay this kind of money for this kind of service and then just kind of general

43:43things like yeah if I don't get 500 people like a landing page I usually kind of pass on the idea I move on thank you very much Austin yeah thanks guys [Applause]