Apple’s Response to the EU’s DMA: What Developers Need to Know

0:00hello everyone and welcome to this impromptu panel of experts on the 24 hours of dma compliance with apple I have not slept much so please excuse any David regulatory capture doesn't help you sleep at night like it does me uh no so those of you listening on the sub Club podcast this is a live recording Friday less than 24 hours from the announcement of Apple's compliance with the dma so let's do a quick round of intros let's kick it off with Gabriel I actually don't know Gabriel so happy to learn a bit about Gabriel and Runway ml real quick for sure so Gabriel one of the founders of Runway we are a mobile

0:45release management platform we work with medium to larger Siz mobile team so I think a bit of a interesting perspective here and excited to chat with you all thanks for having me awesome Nico I'm Nico I'm the founder of adjacent which is an early stage fund focused on the mobile ecosystem so I invest in a lot of consumer subscription companies prum subscription company and incredible infrastructure companies that support them Jacob I'm the chief poster here at Revenue cat I've bigest beard I think by a mile and I achieved it all without regulation which is really what's important I'm excited to use the research of other people to add hot

1:25takes to what happened I think everybody knows what Revenue cat does at this point but give us 10 seconds we we help developers make more money and so Yen who a second David and everybody internally have been scrambling the last 24 hours or whatever to figure out how and if developers can make more money with these changes but we make infrastructure for processing payments on App Stores and Beyond so it's been an interesting 24 hours for us and yens yeah I'm head of product at Revenue cat and Jacob stole all my thunder that's what we've been thinking about what does this mean for Revenue cat the product

2:00but then also again all of our customers because in the end that's what we're here for helping developers make more money Yen did spreadsheets Nico did equations so between David and I we just have to do hot takes it's gonna be a fully informed session all right and then I'm David Bernard growth Advocate at Revenue cat so I host a subcl club podcast run the community and do a bunch of just random stuff like staying up all night reading European regulations to help our developers make more money and what's going all right so I wanted to kick it off with what is the dma so I'm going to just read a couple

2:36of highlights and we'll go around the horn to kind of fill in any details I missed but essentially the digital markets act the dma designate certain large tech services as quote Gatekeepers which must comply with the new obligations and rules by March 2024 so that's why we're hearing the news yesterday is because the compliance was mandated as of March but the G Gatekeepers were only announced 6 months ago although most of The Gatekeepers probably knew that they were going to be announced as Gatekeepers and then just to give folks a taste I'm going to read one of the provisions a short one from the dma so this is on the provision for

3:13alternate inapp purchases and outof app payments the gatekeeper shall not require end users to use or business users to use to offer or to interpolate with an identification service a web browser engine or payment service or Technical Services that support the provision of payment services such as payment systems for R out purchases of that gatekeeper in the context of services provided by the business users using that catee Keepers core platform Services I've already quit making apps hot takes let's go around the room like what is a dma give it to us in simpler terms Jacob you start because I know yours can be the spiciest take well

3:53okay so I for when was this passed this was like 2022 that it was I still don't understand how the laws work in Europe I ask every time I'm with a European person and that doesn't usually help but this is an EU law meaning it was passed in Brussels at the European Union level to regulate I guess it's because that the EU regulates Commerce don't ask me about the politics of it I don't really understand that but essentially this was a regulatory move to essentially limit the power of a handful of mostly American companies and folks on the list are like meta Google Apple bite dance I

4:27Believe made the list there's a couple others and it has a bunch of stuff across different vertical but then specifically there were Provisions in here that Were Meant to hit at Apple's earned Monopoly on the App Stores which there's been agitation from folks like Tim Sweeney at Epic and others that the 30% spy especially Spotify yeah I guess in ter constituents they're probably the biggest one that's complained that this is just highway robbery it's unfair we need the government to come in and make you know Apple's not being forced by the markets to compete at a fair number here and so my understanding is the dma was

5:01meant to force Apple to respond to Market well I don't know respond to what I guess respond to what European Regulators wanted so that's my take Yen can you give a like slightly more balanced take on it I don't know as a as a European you're you're the closest geographically to Brussels I believe my Representatives had a say in this yeah why did you vote for this yens please explain to no so I think the positive T of this is obviously like instilling competition fostering competition in the payment space where you can basically say well if you want an iPhone you have to go through apple

5:40and then the question is kind of like back in the day with Windows and the Internet Explorer is there some kind of unfair tying going on of the store and the device and the platform right so I think that's kind of the intention right the intention is just more competition provide alternative options so that there's some real Choice going on where right now if you want to be on iOS you have to be on the app store if you want to be on the App Store you have to use in a payment so that is I think like the positive spin a create a Market within

6:08iOS right within ex exactly because obviously there is a market between IOS and Android right and also if you look at iOS versus Android Android has always had a bit of a different rule set even though Google over time has tried to I guess make Google play more of the only Avenue and kind of gotten closer to Apple's regulations but certainly iOS is still the more lockdown environment right so I think that's kind of the positive spin on the regulation itself at least the intent of the regulation let's put it like that Nico Gabriel anything to add to that summary of the intent and other provisions of the dma I

6:42would personally leave the payment stuff to The Experts from our perspective we're moving from a place where Apple has monopolized the paperwork and the extra sort of information you need to supply when you're submitting releasing your apps and that continues there's just more of it so it's seeming like the installation sheets the labeling that has to happen it's still very much controlled by Apple there's more hopefully on the other side of all that extra work that you get out of it but it still comes with headaches and it's still very much controlled by Apple so we view it from that perspective more work more hassle more paperwork and not

7:16fun stuff that comes with getting your apps out the door so I guess my overarching comment would be that I do believe that the EU likes to regulate and you can judge that one way or another but I think in this case specifically it does come with more options so you can default to the status quo which means it does not harm if you just consider where we are today but then it opens up an alternative and I'm sure we're going to talk about that a lot and how good or bad it is and when it actually makes sense to opt for that but I do believe that in this case

7:48actually there will be Innovation coming from it which is weird right because usually EU regulation is maybe counter that and I think that in this case we will actually see some new things that are not possible today and I think that is a positive we all probably agree the intent behind the dma is good I think a lot of our hot takes on the dma being bad is more just the bureaucracy of it all I mean personally and even professionally I wish for more competition and more openness and everything else and I think that's was the intent of the dma but part of the reason I read that excerpt is that

8:29anytime you do regulate it's such dense wording you're trying to cover cases you can't predict and otherwise but I do think this opens a door and I think to Nico's point and one thing to recognize too is like this is the start of negotiations this is not the end of negotiations so as we talk through the details here like the EU is going to have a chance to say no apple actually we're gonna find you two billion dollar if you don't change it in this way based on third party conf now that's going to be litigated over months and years but this is a starting Point not the end

9:00point kind of skipped over summarizing what actually impacts the em like Gabriel was kind of alluding to there's kind of multiple parts of this like one is there's a whole new mechanism for deploying apps essentially Sid loading but it's very regulated it's very controlled it's not like Enterprise distribution where you could just download an app that's signed with some kind of CT there has to be this there's this intermediary Marketplace thing that they created which requires all these we could do a whole podcast just on like what it takes to create the marketplace then there's I think the second big pillar that's probably of concern for

9:30this audience is the new business terms I think that's also Up For Debate and then I guess like thirdly there's which would probably be my most exciting thing to talk about would be the meta game of what's going to happen in the meta strategy of the EU versus Apple versus epic Etc so we've got an overview the dma big European regulation well intentioned is going to absolutely change some things this is a starting point so now let's talk about Apple's response to the dma because that is exactly how it's going to play out is how app responded to the dma and then I think we can also intertwine some opportunities

10:04where the EU may actually Force some changes that will create even more opportunity so yeah let's start with at a high level those three things like what are the big changes with Marketplace what are the big changes with fees and what are the other big changes that it enables let's start with the most simple one then is the fees and Jacob you started that so you can chose your own adventure yeah CH your own adventure in the European Union by Tim Apple can't wait you can choose these new capabilities or you can default to the status quo there's two new business models there's the old business model

10:36and then there's the new business model if you want to be distributed in one of these third party stores you have to use the new business model I think correct me if I'm wrong stating however you cannot use a third party store and still use the new business model decision tree step one yeah so every developer gets to make this Choice do I choose the new business model or do I stay on the old business model Apple has not indicated that this is a two-way door David's got some rumors he's heard that maybe it's a two-way door but like we have not heard anything and so that's I think the first

11:08thing is what is this new deal and is it good for developers or not we've talked about this before also I think at different points that there's already been a trend of mobile first companies starting to move some of their conversions online to circum vent the Apple cut and that is a natural motion there's been sweetheart deals with some of the bigger companies so I think that this has been a long time coming and to me it opens up a lot of doors you can stick with what is there but you also can opt into your own payment methods which means a lot of payment companies

11:38will come after this Revenue cat will have some kind of role in it and I think it is going to be interesting to understand what other options it opens up that were not suited for the existing Apple Store payments and specifically because I've been working with a few companies that are prosumer and have somewhere consumer applications distribute to the Appo but then also have Team functionality or B2B and parts of their product and for those it's always been really hard to move from a solo product to an actual multiplayer product and I think specifically for that this could be a GameChanger because if you can start adding seats and use

12:15your company's credit card on mobile to create Company accounts it is very different than having to do it with your Apple ID where you have your personal credit card and things like that so I think it just opens up different Alternatives it won't make sense for everybody and I think the tricky PO is actually figuring out for who it makes sense but I do believe more options in this specific area are a good thing that will lead to innovation in terms of the types of products that we can charge for and how we can charge for them I'm excited about it yeah so maybe it would

12:46be worth summarizing the new fee structure first at first glance it kind of looks attractive because the numbers that you see first when you read through Apple's documentation are 10% and 177% that basically replace the 15 and 30% typical Apple cut however then when you read the fine print it actually starts to get a little bit more murky so firstly for the payment itself Apple now charges 3% so that means you end up at 13 and 20% so if you're using iip yeah exactly if you're using an purchase which in that scenario that Nico was describing wouldn't be the case right yeah yeah right right let's take one

13:25step back cuz I think forming it as this decision tree is actually really helpful because then it separates all the different kind of models that you can blend and then we can go through the details of each of those models so the first decision tree as Jacob said was you can stay with the old or you can switch to the new but when you switch to the new there's actually four separate models and so let's start with the overview of those four models and then we'll dig into the details of each of those four models so the first model is that you stay distributed through the

13:51App Store and you keep billing with apple and that's what yens was alluding to so that one we'll get into the details but that's an option the second option is you can be on the App Store and use alternative payments the third option is that you can be in a marketplace with third-party payments and the Marketplace app we need to dig into that but Marketplace app has all these different regulations and everything else the fourth option is that you can actually be both in the App Store and be on a Marketplace app and so it gets really complex and this is the part that I think is going to be maybe

14:28most helpful for the listeners today is breaking down these four different options and the benefits and drawbacks of each because this is the decision developers are specifically going to have to make it's like okay if I accept the new terms there's four two your own Adventures what are the things that happen in each of these four so that I can make an informed decision on whether this could potentially be good for my business those aren't like formal choices though like they are with choosing the business model that's like thing to select and then the other four these are like four things you can can float between different techniques yeah

15:01so then let's start with that first one and yens that's where you were kind of at is that the very first option is that you accept these new terms you stick with the App Store you stick with app store billing so then what's the deal that you get by accepting these new terms but staying in the App Store and staying with app store billing if you do the math you see that it's going to be basically the 30 and 15% that Apple standard rates dropped to 20 and 133% so that means 20% instead of 30% for Big Ups and subscriptions in their first year and 133% instead of 15% for

15:37developers in the small business program and subscriptions from their second year however and that's kind of where a lot of the questions I guess come in in all of these options this core technology fee comes in and this core technology fee is 50 cents per first annual install per year once you've fit a million installs threshold and the interesting thing there that's very easy to miss if you're just reading how this metric is called is that this includes not only I tap the button in the App Store to install it also includes app updates so basically for any app that continuously ships app updates you can kind of think

16:17about this as the number of people in the EU that have the app on your iOS phone right I mean that's basically what will count against this metric there right so obviously like if you're a small developer who is nowhere close to hitting a million in downloads basically you can ignore that but as soon as you cross that threshold it can become very expensive very quickly because again that's a 50 cents for every install then after that threshold you put some scale numbers on this yens and a doc like how many EU iPhone users are there I mean certainly between 100 and 200 million probably something of that order so if

16:53you're an app that's beyond 1 or 2% penetration into the market you're going to be in the range exactly it's certainly not your like average India app but there's definitely enough apps and I think this core technology fee you know you can clearly read this as trying to dissuade bigger companies to go on this new model right because for bigger companies it's going to get really expensive really quickly and that is I think a little bit of the poison pill in this whole Arrangement because that's just going to mean whatever it is like going on a third party app store is probably just not going to be attractive

17:26for a big app because it's going to be really really expensive to accept those new terms and then any third party app Marketplace won't have big apps so therefore does that Doom them already but okay you know maybe I'm kind of going too far into interpretation and we should like Zoom back out and look at the other the other three models that David yeah but before we move on to that one and we talked about this a lot internally yesterday and so Jacob I want your take on this is that even if you're an indie accepting these new terms in the hopes of saving some money on

17:59fees yeah you save 2% you do open yourself up to risk and I think that that's the biggest thing for folks thinking about this is that offside chance but if your app goes viral for some reason if Apple features it if you get a lot of press or whatever by signing up to these new terms you risk that if you do grow your business if something happens you introduce a hot new feature whatever happens you're taking a lot of Risk by we had a very interesting discussion yesterday about something I think it's discussed in society is like how do you quantify and deal with tail risk right like how do

18:32you as a developer enter into a debate of well I can have 2% discount which relative to Apple's 2% of 15 is not insubstantial it's like maybe 12% or something of the whole amount of fees reduction but like with now you're accepting this this potentially catastrophic risk that if your app goes viral which your app's not going to go viral I can tell you that I love you I want you to be successful but I can say to everybody your app's not going to go viral and be right 999 times out of a thousand right but everybody's a temporarily embarrassed fir rot Millionaire right so it's not very easy

19:06to like think about this risk we see a lot of apps here there are apps that we've done case studies with you look for them that have gone viral that monetization wasn't their biggest thing so they have a relatively low LTV tons of downloads this was the beauty of the old models Apple bore all the costs they took care of everything this developer just shared their revenue at 15% maybe 30 and it was all upside for them under this new model that could literally syn like I ran some analysis on situations like this with some customers in ours their customers millions of dollars in the hole on CTF on the core technology

19:43fee I have to imagine Apple's not going to come take your company right like I imagine they're probably gonna have a like okay this was beyond your control whatever but like as a developer it's going to happen like somebody's going to accept these terms somebody's going to end up becoming a viral hit and then they're going to owe Apple millions of dollars and I'm sure Apple will let them out the back door I hope maybe but it does create this really you know and this is the whole reason we liked the Rev share model just developers just had basically no risk and now you're introducing risk honestly I don't know

20:15how to think about it's really hard to underwrite tail risk events like that n what's your perspective on this specific I know you're kind of bullish on Alternate payments and side loading and things like that but as a venture capitalist who wants to your portfolio companies succeed at a high level do you see any of those portfolio companies taking this deal and we'll talk about the other deals later but what do you think about this deal specifically I think what I tried to do yesterday with the formulas is figure out because like the way I think about is if you're upset about it stick with the status quo for

20:48most companies this is the right choice especially if it's big volume low average revenue per user it doesn't make sense the companies it doesn't make sense for are those that convert the users to to a high degree and then have a high yearly plan and don't have that many free users that retain after the first year that is basically what comes out of it and we don't have to be specific about it but basically if you have a yearly plan and a conversion rate and you multiply both and it's bigger than five then it makes sense this is what the numbers say and then for the

21:16second year renewals it's basically 25 EUR per user that remains and it's includes the free and the paid users that you have to have in the annual sub same or more to benefit from it and what that means is like there's a small percentage of companies that have really high conversion that have almost no free users or a hard pay wall with none and for those companies they can save five plus percent of their margins which is a lot right like it can be a big benefit plus there's one last thing that I want to say to this is you have a considerable unknown which is if we do

21:50have new app stores emerging which is going to take time it's a chicken and egg problem nobody's going to want to do it initially because there's no distribution slow slowly some of the Pioneers will do it and it will create something that will offer the developers the ability to distribute with lower fees which is another added benefit that is really hard to foresee at the moment this small Universe of like high conversion High subscription companies which is the majority of the companies I'm working with they can benefit from it but you have to really look at the numbers as long as that's a really significant free component to the app it

22:22gets more difficult but I do believe that this will also lead us to think about this in a new way how much value do you really get from the free that stay with you for longer than a year if they don't convert right and we can look into this we can dig into this we can look at the numbers and it might need some violence to like how we use the pay wall and adjust features but I think there is going to be companies that will benefit from it it's going to be a small cohort something you said there Nico which we were talking about this morning

22:46on Twitter and this is the unknown is you can put up a hard pay wall you can discourage users from using on free you can eliminate your free plan but you can't make them delete the app you can't this app will self-destruct if you do not convert in 10 days and so that's the big unknown on how many people actually are going to delete their apps it's not zero it's probably a majority the Decay rate of people deleting apps I don't know somebody maybe Gabriel knows like I don't know I agree maybe it doesn't compound to much but I think that's the thing I'm having a hard time quantifying

23:17yeah agreed yeah and I actually just launched a hard pay wall in my app yesterday and can tell you it would not be a very good opportunity for me I mean even on the highend you're talking like a 25% I think is what I'm landing at for my app over the last 24 hours of a trial start rate so that means 75 out of every hundred people I'm paying 50 cents for them to install and they don't even start a free trial so like the math on this does start to get difficult when you're a free app to download Nico how are you thinking about the risk of even

23:50these very high performing High monetization apps who are a free download where you're doing a lot of user acquisition through paid ads and you have very tight control of purchasing very high intent users and then converting those users well there's still that risk because you're a free app that you could just have a ton of downloads from low intent users so that's like a risk even for like highly monetized apps Revenue c new product should be insurance no against yeah the thing honestly they this is something somebody should sell a policy against right I'm not sure who's going to have the data to underr it but I dare to

24:27think that even there must be some protection mechanism from Apple for this not maybe for the case of like a well-funded well monetizing company that has the resources but they do not want a small developer going viral and then being bankrupt that is enti their right like that's not what they want to get out of it so there's going to be some protection I'm positive maybe it's going to be difficult to understand it at first but I would be very surprised if that is not the case there is cases where it's not clear I will not say that after 24 hours I have a perfect view on

24:56it I just have the view of like for these companies it does make sense and for some companies that's a big question mark because we have to understand the data better right so like understanding how many free users are still around after a year understanding the conversion rates better making sure that we have the right pricing and such I don't have the perfect answer for it yet we just need to dig into it to see if it does make sense and it might not make sense initially and that's okay and the question is like does it make sense at a later point in time and under what

25:21circumstances does it make sense and could it make the business better and that's the question that as a result from the iOS changes paid acquisition there was like a year or two where people struggled a lot but a lot of the companies that I work with came out much stronger there's a higher organic growth component they found more creative ways to do marketing we're not pouring money into mattera although that is still part of the strategy for many of them but it's just not as important of a component and I think that here there will be a similar education we will just have to learn what are the criteria that

25:51gives us an advantage if we adopt a new model and really understanding those levers and I think there's going to be a big big gray area and there's G to be an even bigger like it does not make sense area and in the gray area I think it probably the default is you don't do it the case you mentioned Nico that to me seems like I would take a risk on as an entrepreneur is the multi-seat mode discussion so like if you I use notion as an example or something like this where you're a multiplayer SAS app and your whole thing is predicated on seats and there's really no reason to go viral

26:23there's really no consumer motion to it I think that might actually out where you're paying maybe your customer LTV is $30 a month or something like this you can really easily bear that 50 cents a year you can even argue that for some of those companies the mobile first consumer motion is actually a top of funnel for the Enterprise motion and from that perspective it can make sense right it's part of the acquisition couple people that trickle in are 50 cents so so that's an unknown it's also a new model like we'll have to see more but I believe in that and then the second part I mentioned just quickly

26:53right now we assume there's going to be no other marketplaces because it's going to be super hard to get it kickstarted but somebody's going to build it and some people are going to fortnite is a good example right epic is going to do it they're going to start experimenting and from that there will be more audience and once there is alternative marketplaces with big audience the math changes again because yes you still have the same C on the App Store but you have lower costs on the new app store and so it Nets again more positively for the business it's just a more longterm consideration let's wrap up this section

27:24with Gabe and then we'll do step number two on the Choose Your Own Adventure and then step number three will be marketplaces where we can dive deep on what that could mean so Gabe any thoughts on sticking with the App Store but just getting lower fees yeah I mean you said wrap up hopefully it doesn't open cans of worms my question for everyone is are there any parallels to draw from the Android side and I hate bringing that up I know we have an iOS leaning crew here no we're equal opportunity App Store people we love both but you know like things have been a little more in this direction on the

27:55Android side for a while is there something to learn in there do you all have opinions from that side of the house my opinion would be that if you were to just draw out like what is the ability to have alternative stores on Android mean for iOS the answer is very little right like I think that's the answer as optimistic as I am and I think my take for the last like 24 hours has been like apple didn't get this Monopoly by Kolling the government they didn't get this by like having a monopoly on some finite resource like railroads or cables Under the Sea they got this by

28:26building the best phone and everybody buying it and nobody wanting to buy anything else right and so it's going to be very very hard to force people to do something when I think consumers have in a lot of ways voted it's not a perfectly free market but I think people have this like sense that Apple's unkillable that the only way that the iPhone's ever going to be toppled that the app store's ever going to be toppled is if the government or like we forc them to through regulation or whatever but it's historically not been the case like technology has not lasted that long Nokia and rim ruled the world and

29:00eventually people are like this sucks Apple was like how about we do it less sucky and 10 years later those two companies are gone I don't think there's any reason that won't happen and maybe this just opens that up so what Nico is saying is like maybe epic store does rock and everybody wants to use it okay then maybe I'll take my words back and the dma was really important for like opening up that light maybe it's undo burden to expect a competitor to build the phone then build the App Store maybe that's the world it should be but again like why didn't epic just build an

29:29Android device you could just buy one and make it the fortnite phone and all that stuff and the answer is because most of the money is on the iPhone and the iPhone users and it's the best device right like that's why this is getting into the meta metas I don't want to get too ranty on and then maybe to add on even there's a certain aspect of people buying iPhones because the experience is more controlled right and there's maybe few degrees of freedom but also less crap so you know there are options right like you can go by an Android phone and do all kinds of crazy

30:01stuff you can get your emulators on there you can like do your piracy or whatever else stuff you want to do you can get the like epic side loader it exists but it's not successful because the experience isn't there and you can blame Apple you can't blame Apple for that I don't even think you can blame Google for that because the scare modeling for Sid loading on Android's pretty minimal it's pretty like oh yeah be careful right but that's it and it still hasn't taken off so I think well the reason for that is there was a question in the chat asking why hasn't any of the alternative app stores on

30:30Android taken off and I think it's just a question of incentives for some of the players that are able to pull this off right because for most of the companies I work with even if they're crossplatform they have maybe 20% of the revenue coming from Android and oftentimes it's even from GEOS that have a lower subscription pricing in Revenue per users I think it's a very different incentive at this point to figure out an App Store that works on Apple than it was to do it on Android and I think there's going to be a lot more resour just put behind it yep it's 20% of so

31:00it's five times more Revenue it's not like 500 times more Revenue so like I have to think there's enough there should be enough there to get something started and it hasn't seemed like that's the case but I don't I don't know I can't well let's skip over choose your Adventure 2 because this one is we have a blog post that explains everything yeah check the blog post because it'll explain all this in depth but Choose Your Own Adventure number two would be to stick with the App Store but use alternative payments you can either do app alternative payments or you can link out to the web the payment terms

31:30are very similar to sticking with the App Store you still pay a commission and then you still have the core technology fee and everything else so that's kind of a spin on what we've already been talking about yeah let's Jump Ahead to these marketplaces because I do think this is a really important part of this regulation and like yall were saying it is the long-term maybe biggest crack that's going to form because of the dma but the first thing to understand about marketplaces there's going to be so many caveats along the way but the first thing to understand about these marketplaces is one apple has to approve

32:05any Marketplace and the marketplaces are the only place that you can sideload so this is not opening up sideloading where any random app can be hosting that random app on their random website and you can just download it the side loading has to come through approved thirdparty Marketplace apps those Marketplace apps have to put up a million dooll line of credit with that apple is saying is a way to ensure that consumers are protected that it's not some Fly by Night company launching this Marketplace app but somebody with some amount of resources to support the developers and support this Marketplace app so that if consumers get scammed if

32:45there's problems there's some level of recourse versus like a Fly by Night Marketplace app that just scams a bunch of people there's been a lot of condemnation of that but that part of it I do think is actually very much like apple protecting consumers in the EU no you can debate do they need that protection should it just be total open side loading like the Mac whatever but that's how Apple has defined this next opportunity in the choosey Adventure is that a big company like fortnite can create this Marketplace you as a developer can then choose to participate in that Marketplace a couple of more caveats before we open up to discussion

33:22in the fine print we found all sorts of other gotas one is that the marketplace itself has to play the core technology fee so if all Epic did was create a Marketplace app and only sell fortnite every download of the marketplace incurs a core technology fee and every update of the Marketplace app incurs a technology fee and then every install and subsequent annual update of fortnite incurs a core technology Fe this is going to be very expensive a fake store right with one app in it that's the intent of that I think this is maybe the again the more interesting thing to talk about here because there could be

34:00marketplaces that limit installs to not incur the technology fee maybe there's some prerequisits to even get into this Marketplace app and so this is maybe the less risky way to take advantage of the dma is to set up a Marketplace that protects against this core technology fee syncing your business so let's talk about this the last thing on the core technology fee and then actually again if you want to jump in with any details I missed before we do our pantry all around but core technology fee is the only fee that you pay so inside those marketplaces you can use any payment provider you want you don't pay Apple

34:38any commission you don't pay Apple any billing fee the only thing you pay Apple in these marketplaces is the core technology fee did I miss anything and if you use iip right like you can still use use I no you cannot use from my understanding no no no and they're not charging commission so they're not taking no they're only taking the core technology fee in that case did you say that we cannot do in purchases in the no you you cannot do not using app but in the third party Marketplace store you can use Apple pay to pay with your face processed via stripe in Revenue cat yeah that's yeah

35:15exactly I mean that's it doesn't matter really right yeah yeah and this is this is by way interesting that this is explicitly allowed to use Apple pay I was kind of surprised when I saw this in the docs that they explicitly talk about using Apple pay and how you have to use Apple pay but it didn't seem like prohibitive you know yeah like they would make a weird rule like oh can't use Apple pay right it would seem like a dumb thing they would add yeah I guess one one kind of minutia is that there is going to be at least two scare sheets in these steps so you see the scare sheet

35:46for downloading this Marketplace app and then through the no diarization process from what I understand apple is going to kind of document some things and there will be a second scare sheet when you're installing an app from this thirdparty Marketplace that is kind of an apple system sheet that tells you about what's happening in the app but all in all it's kind of like what you were saying Jacob is like is that fairly reasonable to prompt I mean Apple the wording of it the design of it maybe over the top but it's two hurdles to get to a completely free and open ecosystem on iOS one scare

36:23sheet to download The Marketplace app one scare sheet to download the app itself and then you can do pretty much anything that's allowed via these notorized apps so what do we think there's a lot of angles here and again I would leave the payment stuff to The Experts I think going back slightly one of the most interesting things for us is all those rules around setting up the new marketplaces and one of the results of that being that a lot of these big names that might be interested in distributing more directly to their users really can't you need to set up a Marketplace that is designed as an

36:57outlet not just for your own app but others and there would be potentially this big shift in larger teams and companies to distribute directly to their users if they already have sites that have a lot of traffic that kind of thing just make it super easy to get more folks onto mobile not possible so to make this all happen in a big way we talked about someone in the comments like a Netflix or Spotify there are some big names there that could do a sort of Niche or vertical specific maybe Marketplace but when you look broader scope for large companies it's hard to see how they would expand Beyond more

37:29traditional ways of Distributing I think that's how we view it right now there's just so many guard rails on this that I think eventually things will expand and get there but it will be extra slow I think because of some of the red tape of course yeah Netflix is an interesting one because Netflix has a real cogs problem right like they can't charge $9.99 or whatever on iip because they have to pay a bunch of fees for their licensing of content they can always just Jack the price up but they don't like to do that either so they've just said forget it we drive enough traffic

37:56you could see a world where they're like okay let's build the Netflix app store which like TBD I wonder how strict Apple's going to be and be like all right the Netflix app store is just for Netflix we're not going to allow this right like this is not really an app store right this is just a special thing for Netflix but Netflix also is doing app distribution they have games now and stuff like this so they're kind of already playing in this space so you could see them building this the question for Netflix would be is all of those steps going to compound to 30% that you're losing already and I'm like

38:2430% comes at you real fast when you compound couple Gates you have this crazy install thing which like okay so just think about like when you're doing consumer anything every click you're losing 10% of your users especially if I'm doing this targeted to install Netflix like I have to install Netflix as app store get a big scary sheet and I'm like okay I'm a normie like I don't know what this is but it looks scary and then you have to navigate inside their thing and you had to click again and it's like another big scary sheet and Netflix has got to be like no it's okay

38:52it's cool it's Netflix's virus like it's fine and by the time you get to the end of this chain it's again it's like Netflix could do this now on Android I don't think they have and maybe Nico's point about it just being oneth the revenue that's just not enough incentive for them to do this as a developer I'm just thinking like God I got to make this stupid app store work I got to do all this I got to maintain all this crap I got to do all this billing now we got this exposure to the CTF and all this crap for what so we can charge $999

39:20instead of $13 on the App Store Right Netflix is doing fine without charging the payments at all I guess gets into like The Meta of like I think that was Apple's point right I think this was the purpose of the way theyve complied was that to like induce maximum pain while staying as close within the regulations as they can because frankly they've got a monopoly on their users time and dollars and they don't want to let that go and that's where I think this as a starting point for negotiation really interesting because maybe the most straightforward thing for the EU to do to make the dma more impactful is say

39:58apple you can't charge 50 cents that's not a fair and reasonable fee you can only charge 10 cents and if that's the case then the calculus of how all this works out looks really different I'm gonna go full Milton fredman here and just be like that's what markets are for basically we now have a duopoly of the EU and apple which are probably similarly sized in market cap right being like being like 50 no one it's the same thing they're both corporations of people trying to like achieve something what we're trending and this is where I'm going to really put on my tin foil hat is we have created a perfect trap

40:33for regulatory capture because what's gonna happen is Apple's going to like dance to use dance they're gonna make it work they're going to do all this work they're going to build this super complex thing that they alone can comply with that's built for them to be alive while yes we've now like created space for new entrance at the low end anybody who gets anywhere close to this gatekeeper thing is going to have this ceiling that they can't penetrate because now they have to be a gatekeeper as well like meta is already considered a gatekeeper is this gatekeeper law Inception where like if meta has an App

41:03Store now their app store also has to allow extra app stores or something like this the things that we don't know yet which makes it a bit harder to really understand the opportunity or the possibility of new marketplaces is like what is that burden actually I know we know high level what new Marketplace have to do that to have the mill in this like specific checks that they have to do before they distribute software we have to understand how costly that is for them to understand if it could make sense and then there's also some questions around these scare sheets how aggressively are actually being pushed

41:32in user's face is there some ability to adjust it somehow at your own language so I think there's like some things that are not 100% defined so it's hard to understand I spent time with man talking about this yesterday the founder of backbone the mobile Marketplace a controller and the software piece of it and I think there's a specific examples again where this makes a lot of sense right like there's full price games that are now being released on the iPhone that's string now for example example is coming to iPhone is $20 right it's not like high volume yet these type of games on the App Stores but you already have a

42:02significant number of users that are using the backround to play games and that have the software layer that already downloads a lot of apps with that right is there a world where you say look guys we can offer you higher margins we make all margins on it as long as the costs are somewhat under control it is for us very well possible to have a Marketplace on top of our existing user base that actually enables gaming distribution and I think there's some people that are specifically positioned already in that they can take advantage of this potentially and then there's some of the bigger players like epic that just do it because it's

42:33ideologically what they think should be done but as soon as we have marketplaces that do get to scale and offer a real alternative to the app store for a specific Niche then the calculus becomes much more attractive then when we get what we want which is like the appsort to actually concede some things right then I'll be happy then I will you know what I'll move to Brussels I'll wear my little blue shirt withar ring I will go full EU congratulations it worked I'm just like how long are these Cycles going to take it's been years for us to get anything and so now we're going back

43:03to the an moot again and like we have to like do another cycle and then literally I think what's gonna happen is Sam mman or somebody's gonna build an AI phone that's gonna obsolete the iPhone and then this is going to be like the biggest waste of energy of all time you know obviously I wake up in cold sweats at night thinking our apps going away is the iPhone going away and I don't think I see an immediate path to that but it would be naive to think that this model exists forever and I think stuff like the dma what's happening now called it in shid ification like to use that term

43:33it's like we're seeing the inchi ification of the App Store the unintentional positive here is that this will create I think hopefully opportunity maybe a company with an already present base like backbone then can then lever that into a store which then can maybe lever that into a device because it could be the same case for epic and that's what actually breaks Apple's Monopoly but that's a lot of Bank shots I want to pull on two threads that na brought up one earlier and one just now is that these thirdparty marketplaces probably make the most sense in two specific cases out of the gate right like evolving over time maybe

44:06things change whatever but like out of the gate so far I'm seeing two things based on Nico's comments is one is that if you're a AAA game and you charge up front so like I can Envision under these rules a AAA game store launching as a third- party Marketplace you pay $50 up front for your AAA game Nintendo could launch the switch store with backbone as a controller and you pay $30 up front for the game now that gives you I mean a decade of your 50 cents a year is five bucks that's still lower than the market places be paid up front and that's a

44:42like a weird C no it's totally free it's like the market I know but how do you enfor how do you enforce the download on that I guess this is the only reason to download it is because you've paid $30 or something like this right yeah like you can only download the app if you've paid the $30 in this because the marketplace I mean from my understanding again maybe there's other details but my understanding is like the marketplace has like full control over the business model within the marketplace so Nintendo could come along with a Nintendo switch Marketplace app it could all be paid up front their premium games $60 for tear

45:15of the kingdom and with a $60 upfront payment that 50 Cent platform core technology fee even if you have to pay it recurring is a tiny little fee you also to lose though you have to pay for everybody's CTF for the market download but for the marketplace downlo yeah the marketplace has to be the free download but then subsequent downloads can be limited so that's I think a really interesting opportunity created by the dma that could be done immediately under the current rules with the current fee structure the second one that I think Nico kind of alluded to is a more B2B marketplace where when you know you're

45:53going to have a much higher LTV and you can design the store around those kind of limits maybe you have to sign in with your corporate account before you can download an app maybe there's some other hurdle to enforce the not downloading unless you already have an account with that provider whatever there could potentially be this opportunity for high LTV especially B2B but maybe even high LTV consumer marketplace where there's some other kind of gate to protect against that core technology fee and again with some limit on the licky lose downloading it and starting a free trial and never paying you a penny there's potential for

46:31these high LTV apps to join a marketplace where there are some limitations in place and that could happen today even with all of the fees and hurdles you have to jump through we'll see no comments from the gallery I am so confused I Miguel and I were talking about yesterday is like they made it just too confusing for anyone human brain to really like wrap their head around and I think that was the point 153% I can get that that I understand this there's one too many variables there's too many nonlinear relationships between things I think that's made it very difficult I will stand up and say that everybody on this

47:05call do not switch to the new business model like do not like it is at best a bad idea at worst like a huge distraction at least wait let somebody else do it because like Nico's talking about a lot of companies that are sort of these very specific cases they tend to be bigger they know who they are and they're going to be able to test this in appropriate way if you're like our Legion of Indie apppp developers and Apple's right 99% of developers don't get like allured by the 2% because I don't know if you'll be able to switch back I don't think it's a worthwhile

47:35trade if you are in this face when n was talking about where like certain companies are kind of screwed by the current terms it prints them from doing certain things then it might be worth doing the math on but again I think it's a pretty risky bet I wouldn't be the first company to stick my neck out on it let's put it that way I'd want to like figure out how it plays out a yeah in The Meta we haven't discussed yet is that we're also just talking about the EU so like we pulled Revenue cat numbers and from all of our customers App Store specific EU specific revenue is 12% so

48:09even Nintendo coming out with like a switch store that's a lot of work to build the marketplace to do all that kind of stuff to maybe move the needle on 12% of your revenue and of course with switch they're selling hardware and probably making some profits on that at this point in the console Evolution and all that so there's like a million different caveats but yeah I think it's interesting that you also have to filter to the views of like this is not a global thing we're only talking about five to 15% of the total revenue and then you're talking about all these hurdles to jump through all the new code

48:41and other things you have to do to be able to do these things Yen you were gonna say something yeah I mean I was just gonna comment both Jacob's and your comment so I think on Jacob's comment I would completely agree with what Jacob said I think the big wild card there is the the third party app stores third party app marketplaces or whatever I think that's the only thing that could really change the game but I also think the likelihood of that happening and happening quickly are relatively low maybe epic is going to launch the fortnite store so like we'll see what happens with that I mean I rant some

49:12numbers and it doesn't seem like a very attractive proposition hey they already spent a hundred billion dollars find the Apple yeah exactly another 100 million just to ideological more than anything so that's gonna happen that's one as I also think some of this will be litigated in some way or another right I mean you know of course Tim Sweeney is already cursing over on Twitter about this and might take apple to cord over this I'm sure Spotify is going to do the same so I think that's the second aspect I think there David you said I mean yes it's EU only but I bet that a bunch of

49:45regulators across the world are also basically watching this space and kind of seeing what happens right and seeing like is this experiment successful or not and I learned from that because maybe not so much in the US because obviously I mean for one thing apple is a US company but the world is Big outside of the us as well so we'll see what happens I think that that's really met yeah you have to presume this is the response model they'll use you know there was an open markets act in the US that was kind of very similar they didn't get a lot of traction but if it

50:13ever did yeah they would be no and I mean I think apple is going to keep behaving this way and like doing the minimum that they can I think that that's become very very evident over the last two or so years it's a little bit of a shame because in the end probably the worst thing is that we end up with app business models that are completely fixed and fixated by regulatory bodies with no ability to have any flexibility but we'll see what happens again I think there's probably a few more moves to watch here before I mean there doesn't seem to be a first mover Advantage here

50:44to try and take advantage of this yeah this is probably a good place to wrap up all the whole conversation and tight in a nice little bow I think a good point Yan is that this is again just one more step in like a multi-year multi Battlefield War that's going on between Apple and developers and consumers and Regulators what's the end game for apple and this is what's so frustrating to me is just that Gruber had a good line in one of his posts recently said the last thing you want to do if you're a sports team in a high stakes sporting event is piss off the refs and like that's what

51:22Apple's doing it's like they're just inviting more regulation South Korea has already responded to app's quote compliance in South Korea saying that they don't think app's actually complying and are threatening to find them like Apple's pissing off a lot of people like they're squandering developer Goodwill they're pissing off Regulators consumers are starting to hear seem super table did you see the screenshot I show yesterday 14-year-old son is like apple sucks because he just sees all the YouTubers complaining about like he want an Android phone Tim Sweeney responded on my tweet today well why not build a new phone phone he says it cost $300 billion I'm like Apple's

51:57worth 3 trillion that's a 10x return build a new phone for $300 billion I think that is the natural cycle of it right platform takes over earns Monopoly becomes shitty and unresponsive between other things somebody goes like okay there has to be a better way and then somebody invents the better way and then we continue on into the future and it's great can I add two last things um that I think maybe interesting to hear the one is like another opportunity that we haven't touched upon and this is just I guess my mind but I'm thinking okay since we have the status quo and we know

52:28apple is cheeky like it's really interesting because I had a lot of developers be like really upset with apple about this and I understand it but like it's clear what Apple's incentives are right and of course they're trying to as much as possible avoid to lose revenue and this is a way that they can comply but also like make it very difficult and so we have to find a way to take opportunities out of it other than the ones that we discussed I think there's one here which is the 600 new apis that are being released which I think is like something not to be dismissed right and I don't know exactly

52:57what the Innovation from that will be but I'm sure there's going to be entrepreneurs out there that will figure that out and I think that's going to be quite interesting it also will be good for your businesses and I think on the marketpl aspect is something I think because yes it will be hard and we will have to Kickstart it from some position of power and it could either be existing players big players that just do it ideologically but also this is where Venture can be very helpful right these are the types of things that you can actually fund with Venture Capital where it's may be very hard economically for

53:23the first four five 10 years to actually get to a place where you can have the scale but that is something that Venture could enable and I would love to talk to people that are building in trillion dollar swings right there aren many trilon dollar swings right yes the API call out is a good one it's sort of an area we didn't get to touch on too much for my closing take it was cool to see apple announce so many new API sort of under the hood here that kind of bodess well for us and what we're building collectively us not just Runway but then zooming out to the meta I think this

53:52Singularity event the iPhone coming into existence that Jacob talked about before like a lot of this does feel like just shuffling things around some different numbers to distract everyone and figure out where to move but it's little steps and I think that's one of the take-homes for us so far it's not a big shift yet it's a move in a Direction but for the really big stuff I think there might be a bigger Singularity event that's on the horizon so getting my AI brain chip I'm already pre-ordered doesn't even have um Yen for the benefit of the listeners on the subclub podcast and people who are

54:25watching this on YouTube after the fact you've been answering a lot of great questions in the Q&A are there any that you feel like are particularly Salient that we kind of didn't hit or maybe questions folks who aren't live and don't have access to the chat that would be especially interesting to kind of answer live or maybe even kick around as we wrap up there's a bunch of questions around what we will do so I'll get to those later there's a bunch of people asking whether this business model is per app or per developer account my understanding from reading this is that because it's an amendment to the

54:57developer agreement that is probably per developer so you can't like opt in some of your apps opt out some of the other apps there were more questions around is this reversible or not so here we said earlier maybe it might be eventually reversible but right now the documents that Apple released say it's a oneway decision so I think they can't make it reversible right it's like Insurance like you can't buy insurance after the fact you know what I mean like I heard rumors that it will be reversible but then thinking through even if Apple did by like the letter of the law to comply to the EU or whatever make it reversible

55:30the business implications of making it reversible are pretty daunting again one of the fine print I haven't found it in the fine print but somebody told me that if you're installed from a Marketplace the App Store can't overwrite that app and if you're installed from the App Store The Marketplace app can't overwrite that app so you're trying to move somebody from Marketplace to the app store or from the App Store to the marketplace you have to specifically say please go delete the app store version and then you have to have some like data loss prevention mechanism in place there and then say go to the marketplace and

56:05download it so like even if it were reversible like the business implications of trying to reverse this decision are pretty daunting here's a question that I think might be easy to hit but do we think Google Play will change this rules in a similar manner they fall under the gatekeeper restrictions right do they need to do anything in addition to what they already do to come into compliance Eric sufer had a really good post on this was talking about how because they already do allow side loing and actually are way less restrictive about how they do the side loading there are things that apply but a lot of what we talked about today

56:35don't apply because they're already open in those ways I know you read that post is there something specific you want to call out yeah I'm not 100% sure but my guess is that they will probably have to allow alternative inab payments as well but already doing that with billing Choice yeah exactly exactly so that's basically that so that's how does how does Google look like the ones who didn't make a big mess of this right like usually their stuff's like complicated I actually I think Google's actually doing some really smart stuff like they're I'm going trade in my iPhone y'all time to get on Android this is what I was kind of

57:07hoping Apple would do to comply with the dma was actually following Google's footsteps because with billing Choice Google is saying and maybe I'm G to get the details wrong yens you may have dug a little deeper into this but they're saying okay you can have alternate inapp purchases you can use thirdparty credit cards you can do whatever payments you want all we're going to say is that on the pay wall you have to have both Google Play billing and your third party billing and let users pick and then they do also still charge I think a commission on the third party billing but that is complying even more so with

57:39the letter of the law and also does create user choice but is also still kind of good for Google because a lot of users are just going to pick Google billing anything else to add on Google bilding Choice Y no I think that's it and what's been established there and I think that's just not going to change unless a regulator steps in is that both Apple and Google basically say well if you're using our app store for everything except payments will basically take over a very small percentage of our commission right so for Apple here it's 3% for Google it's been 4% I think which just means like

58:13economically speaking for the most part it doesn't make a lot of sense for developers unless they have specific reasons let's say for example you use a third party payment provider that provides alternative payment methods that are very important for your user base or whatever right then that is something to consider but in most cases like Apple and Google actually have a pretty wide range of different payment methods in different countries now right so that it's unclear but I mean there's certainly Choice there I would agree with that I'm just gonna tag on to the wrap-up here and just say I posted yesterday a poll as to what people would

58:47choose old model or new model I think it was like 8020 people old model new model I just ran a new poll and I posted it in the chat so everybody that attended the webinar here after hearing my official recommendation I just want to know how much weight that carries and I'm curious what people think after learning a bit more about the rules they're excited about the new model the old model so links on my Twitter for the poll nice y any other pressing question so just from the questions panel that because there a bunch of questions around like what will Revenue cat do will Revenue cat launch

59:18an alternative app store will Revenue CAD support alternative app stores will Revenue CAD support alternative payments in app so I think certainly we're discussing all of those I think us launching an alternative app store is probably the one that is the least likely supporting alternative app stores to the extent that is possible and to the extent that they become relevant I think that's all absolutely going to be on the agenda right so like maybe not the Epic store because we're focusing more on subscription apps than games per se but if there's any feasible alternative app stores then we will definitely do our best to support those

59:53alternative inapp payment ments I think right now they don't look super attractive but we are working on some things that you know just for more flexible billing across platforms so that's something that's very much top of mind and where we should be able to move quickly as well to the extent it becomes relevant yeah those were kind of I guess the three very very big questions about like what will Revenue cat do so I have a I have a more straightforward answer gonna help developers make more money yes whatever it takes whatever it takes prevent them from making less money yeah that's the whole yeah that's a good way to frame it like

1:00:27if we think it's going to make developers make less money we probably won't go through all the effort to support a random store that we don't think is actually going to benefit developers but if we see opportunities that really will help developers make more money we're going to be working on my greatest failure in life will be if I cling on to an existing business model to the point that I'm regulated by the EU so make sure that we adapt to the changing market and respond to Consumers all right well let's just go around the horn one final time and just kind of do a wrap up Nico what are your closing

1:00:58thoughts on this mess my brain is wired in a way that I always try to understand like what is the opportunity here and so I think yes I agree with Jacob that nobody should rush and it has to be understood well what this means and even we don't understand it yet right there's a lot of new ones still to be defined there's also still probably negotiations around the actual final terms and so I think let's wait but I do believe that every time there's Chang as opportunity and there's going to be smart entrepreneurs or existing companies that will take those opportunities and I'm excited about it I think it really plays into

1:01:33the thesis I think some companies will just remain the way it is but I think for others new marketplaces prummer High converting apps that also want to do team accounts and potential emergence of new marketplaces are things that I for me those are new themes that I will be looking into and so I'm cautiously optimistic that there's going to be some benefits from this and also that the final results will be better than what we know today Gabe I think highest level not as much of a massive shift as it might seem but a move in that direction like I said I think maybe lower level

1:02:07maybe nearer term extra work and kind of headache figuring this out for folks I think that's an interesting challenge to think about that from the other side and how you can help folks with these changes awesome yens it's interesting never adul I think that's that that's kind of who would have thought who would have thought yeah no I think that that's kind of it to me but my advice for app developers would be I mean definitely keep up to date but there's probably no need to rush to make any decisions and it's certainly not the first move in this chain of events that has been unfolding for like the last at

1:02:37least two and a half years it is an important step a significant step but more steps are going to come and this game is far from over yet so that's my take here and we'll see what happens in this space especially I think on the alternative app Marketplace that's what I think is the most interesting is there going to be anything that really makes a material difference there and Jacob saved you for last so you could rant my boy they butchered my beautiful boy they out the store I'm all for competition I want better deals for developers I want Tim Sweeney to be able to do whatever he

1:03:09wants and make all the money he wants like I want everybody to be happy obviously but I can't help but be like a little sad that we had kind of a pretty simple kind of a pretty decent little deal and it helped a ton of people and it created this whole entire appicon and I don't see immediately that what's happening is good for that what I see happening is creating more complexity I see it risking the entire space and I don't know maybe it's the maturing of it the inch ification whatever you want to call it and maybe it's for the best and this will create the next thing and all

1:03:40of it's good but I can't help lament a little bit the Simplicity we might be losing with this model that's worked pretty well for a decade even if you know not everybody's happy and whatever you can't debate that it has created more wealth and more value value and more software than anything we had ever tried before and then to just like murder it over 2% feels a little shortsighted I don't know but maybe that's just being sentimental onwards into the future and we'll be here for the next thing too I don't think any of us want to spend our time like prognosticating about European regulation right like we just want to

1:04:13make apps so like the sooner we can get back to that the better all right well I'm G to wrap up with my hot take since I'm the host I get to close it all out but Jacob I think your take is and I am on the same page but with a slightly different spin so I started my career as an indie developer who exactly as you said like capitalized on this incredible business opportunity like sitting in my little condo in San Marcos Texas in 2008 I shipped apps to the world and saw people buy in Saudi Arabia in India and all over the world and it was so simple

1:04:49for me to build that business and to build this career on the App Store and so like personally as a kind of longtime Apple Fanboy that's struggling with my fanboyism but then also like as a longtime developer who's made millions of dollars and had millions of downloads on the App Store I'm sad too but while you spun it back around to the EU and to the regulation I'm personally a lot more frustrated with apple I don't think we would have gotten to this point had Apple made more concessions to make it a better place more opportunity and again Google's already kind of leading on this front

1:05:24they drop the fee for subscription apps to 15% that's actually probably a pretty good deal for most apps to not even worry about billing Apple's obstinance in sticking to this 30% is part of what's creating that inch ification and so as much as the EU laws are complex and hard to parse and all that kind of stuff and we're regulating things into the ground like apple had a choice here and I personally think they're making the wrong choice they're pissing off developers they're pissing off regulators and it's bleeding over into sentiment from consumers like my 14-year-old son and I think that's like you said sad for the platform that we

1:06:06all actually kind of care about time to start a phone company it's time it's the moment it's been fun thank you for people who got this far on the podcast thank you Nico for joining thank you Gabe for joining thank you Jens and Jacob for being here and to be determined this will probably not be the last webinar probably not the last podcast where we discuss all the implications and let's see what the EU says let's see what Apple does let's see what Tim Sweeny does and we'll talk to you all again soon thank you thanks so much for listening if you have a minute please leave a review in

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