Lizards Thru Doorways: Proven Ways to Widen Your Funnel Using Just Your CTAs – Joanna Wiebe

0:00thank you it's something I'm hearing myself sorry it's some awesome to be back at micro Kampf I attended last year but I spoke to you before I saw I mentioned it's such an awesome group and it's great to stand up here so as Rob mentioned I'm from copy hackers and there I do all the time what some of you do sometimes and that is I write and test copy the words on your page the words in your emails the words the things that connect you to your prospects so that's what I'd get to do is and I've been doing it for about 11 or 12 years writing and testing coffee

0:42day after day learning a lot day after day and sharing a lot on our blog as well and frankly I've been doing it so long it's kind of started to work my brain a bit it's um it's like when you get really close to anything you get close to someone's face right and you look at their face and their eyes get all kind of alien like and they blur and they get really unrecognizable and that's kind of where I'm at with copywriting now which isn't that confidence-inspiring I'm sure for you since I'm going to talk about coffee writing today but it's it's it's the truth there's so many things that when I

1:20started out that you've probably heard - all of these so-called best practices about writing copy how to connect with people they seem true and sometimes they still seem true but then other times they do not seem true at all when we do a test so things like always make copy as short as possible right totally false you can run a lot of tests that will say that that's absolutely untrue the other side of that is always use long copy to sell nope that's obviously not true either always use an orange button never use a text link for a primary called action which we learned very embarrassingly is not true never be

2:02clever and never lead with a feature all of these things are things that you might have heard along the way and certainly I've heard them I've use them as best practices I've tested them and found out that they are not best practices there's so many things I could really go on and on with all the things that aren't true but what I have found in in this you know dozen dozen years of writing and testing copy is there there are a few things that feel pretty true to me and I want to share those with you today the first one is this so stop me if you've heard this but

2:43the line goes when you've written your headline you've spent 80 cents of your dollar has anybody heard that before does anybody know who said that oh yes did you say yes like oh yeah we've to know oh well they said it David Ogilvy so the father of modern advertising David Ogilvy big coffee advocate he said a lot of things of course but he said it in a book and people read parts of the book and then they cite just those parts of the book which we see all the time and so people tend to believe that the headline is everything that you only need to work on

3:22your headline and you can totally change your business you can grow you can do amazing things just by focusing on this one key part but the thing is right David Ogilvy died quite a while ago and he was saying this and the great ad man that we still continue to quote we're saying these things seventy years ago 60 50 40 30 years ago not recently certainly not since you know the web and so we're taking all of this little advice and we're treating it like it's still the gospel when it is anything but as we're gonna see so yes some headlines are important don't get that wrong

3:59attention grabbing headlines can do really good work so we have I'm going to show you a bunch of case studies throughout this to help you understand what's going on in my head too but I hope you can see this pretty clearly I'll read some parts of it out but we ran a test last summer we worked on a bunch of sites all at once with this one kind of big hypothesis around what happened what happens if you write copy that makes you really uncomfortable the risky out of your comfort zone kind of hypothesis so we worked on sites like der sippy this is a service out of the UK this is their

4:35control close your love perfect for your shape and size as a headline it's a perfectly good headline but we decided to test a variation against him that used language that we found their audience or their segment was using a bit more it's a little risky right it's not something that you would normally want to put on your page but it worked for their audience or we believed that it would and it did it did okay right we got 14% with confidence 14% more clicks to sign up just clicks on that pink button there okay it's pretty good so if you work on your headline you can get

5:11some improvements but what blonde headlines really crappy boring dull headlines work as well - so this is view scan scanner software as the headline tells you it's exactly what it is we tested on this because we looked at it and I think you know I'm a copywriter and I think everybody looking at this headline right now could objectively say you scan scanner software is perhaps not the best headline for this site it's good you know from message matching that kind of perspective good for SEO maybe but is it a good headline is it gonna make people want to do something want to do the thing that we want them to do and

5:50that hopefully they'll want to do that too so we thought no no we can definitely improve on this so they have really good traffic and good conversion rate so we were able to test three different headlines against that control any idea which one of those beat the ctrl none flat completely flat embarrassing awful results and the client was not incredibly impressed by that at all but the takeaway there is right that you don't actually have to always improve your headline that might not be not even the low-hanging fruit but an option for you at all which leads me to believe that you know the headline show is over that the days of being all

6:34about your head and focusing on your headline working on that above everything else those are gone it doesn't mean the headline doesn't matter doesn't mean you shouldn't have a headline on a home page or landing page of pricing page or any of your pages that you're creating but it's not the first thing to think about there is something that we're seeing that Ogilvy couldn't have seen because they didn't exist when nobody was around something that's more important or at least as important as your headline you should be working on it with your headline and that is your buttons no big surprise there hopefully we all talked

7:05about buttons like there microcopy though like they're really small and we don't need to think about them but headlines and buttons work together and this is what I know to be true at this point in my life after a lot of testing and learning so what does that really mean so you'll remember this we just looked at this test little modest lift when we just tested the headlines against each other so what we did I looked at that headline I was like this headline should be performing a lot better than its performing something's happening here it's making it very unfair and of course to measure success

7:39on a page in a test we're often measuring based on clicks so if the button is unattractive unappealing if it's not engaging you in some way perhaps that is making your headline not perform as well as it ought as it could simply because the button isn't letting people convert or isn't encouraging them to do the thing that the headline is setting them up for so we tested we've already seen the other variation but this is the control again with this simple sign up now button sign up now and we tested that with the risky headline and an optimized button as well and that button is show me outfits I'll

8:18love and we basically swipe that from crazy eggs show me my heat map because it was such an outstanding button that was like really hard to beat so we took that and went with it it beat the control any sense guesses by how much and we've talked about it on our blog so don't go on her blog but yeah 124 percent more clicks to sign up just by changing but of course the button is the site of conversion rate you can't convert online without clicking a button so of course if Olga Lee was around today you'd probably be looking at buttons too because that's how we

8:54measure conversions that's a step towards you know moving deeper into your funnel so just as a close up here of this the difference is only the button here just the button copy and that's the difference so if you were looking at this data alone if you'd never heard that headlines are so important if that maybe and maybe some of you haven't heard that which is really good news but if you'd never heard that would you think we should focus all of our efforts on the headline or would you start maybe to see the importance of working on buttons to try to get people to do the

9:28things you want them to do now that in mind okay well how can we do that what are some things that I can do Joanna that I can take away and go do right now on my site and that is we recommend that you do optimize your headline and button copy at the same time together for maximum results it might not be that great for learning like people who are really deep into a/b testing and CRO would probably challenge this but when we don't have a lot of traffic you usually have to do an a/b test that's the best you can do and your B has to be

9:58ice to put your best foot forward and that's where doing your headline and button copy at the same time can get you there so we did this another case study ABC test we're just going to show you a and C the control and the winner so we optimized the headline and the button at the bottom of the form which you can I think sort of see you there there is a little button underneath that form that's control B is an optimized headline without an optimized button and C is this guy right here optimized headline and optimized button B didn't do much at all C again led to 10.3% more leads that's

10:37completed leads and that's all these guys do they're out of Australia they just bring in leads so previously we were looking at people clicked more people and then on the next page they have to do more work this is they completed the form and submitted it so 10 percent more leads is actually pretty significant it's a good trick to figure out what you should do if you're going to optimize your headline and your button at the same is to repeat your headline copy in your button if you don't know what your button should be you don't want it to be submit obviously or anything like that a

11:11good trick is just to take the value that you're talking about in your headline and pop it in to your button we did this with scheduled isset e on there trial start page and the control is you know the headline is end appointment scheduling hassles the control button is try schedule lissa t free which is a perfectly fine button but when we added when we did a test where was end my scheduling hassles as that button and said we saw a good lift so that's like another reason I know these are like individual case studies there's always things that you can say that are like well what about on this and that's

11:46exactly the point it's not there's always going to be a test that shows something is not true but this over lots and lots and lots and lots of tests this has continued to be something that feels very very true now one more thing about buttons and I won't keep talking on about buttons but I should because they're really important when you're writing your button now when you're writing your headline don't suggest work so what does that look like don't make people think that their lives are going to get harder in any way when they click the button make their lives easier another test this was for Co scheduled

12:25is anybody familiar with Co schedule they're an editorial calendar for WordPress so we were testing just we're just trying to increase clicks on the try it free Now button the orange one right there in the middle of the page what's wrong with that button is really the first question we asked right what is it not doing that it could be doing better try is a good word to use it's low commitment free is also often a good word to use now is another good word to use because it speaks to instant gratification and urgency and all of those good things but we were thinking okay if this solution is meant for

13:04people who use WordPress and they can install it immediately in WordPress then isn't that really the instant gratification that they're looking for so we tested a new button that said add it to WordPress smell try it free now versus add it to WordPress now which one do you think would win a or b a is try it free B is at it ok a little bit divided there C always C the answer is always C ya know this was really bad yeah so not only did we get fewer clicks on the button but as you might think well the people who did click might have been better qualified they were ready to

13:49add it to WordPress now it didn't end up turning into more signups down the road though so it really didn't help in any way this button and when we're looking at it the real problem is that what if I don't want to add it to WordPress right now I'm suggesting work with it right there's a sense that my life might get a little bit harder when I click this button II but it's just for a moment and of course try it free now and add it to WordPress now are both going to the exact same page you still have to do the work afterward people don't want to be

14:20reminded of the work that they have to do they want their lives to feel better everything that we should be doing and saying on our pages should help them feel like their lives are going to get better not harder even if it's true that they will get a little harder for a moment so that's part one of the three things that I know to be true the second one is this and this has really helped me with optimizing coffee and optimizing entire funnels the idea is that everything every element on your page every element in your emails every element that you will work on at all where there's a word

14:58on the page has one job to do and it can only be responsible for one job that's it not everything is responsible for getting a sale some things will be responsible for certain little bits that add up to an ultimate sale ideally that's the point so here's what I really mean we're gonna look through a typical process for bringing a lead in and converting them in general people start on a PPC ad what's the job really of the PPC ad to get the click right a qualified click ideally if it's qualified it'll make life a lot easier as we move down the path but yeah so okay it does its job

15:36it's a pretty obvious job there's only one thing it can be responsible for what is it supposed to do it's the most obvious thing make it responsible for that click not for a sale for the click the landing page headline okay so I've come from the PPC ad I've landed on a landing page what's the headlines job the headlines job is purely to keep them there now there are a lot of ways you can go about it but if you just think my headline can only be responsible for keeping people on this page nothing else then that can dramatically simplify how you write an optimize your copy okay so it does its

16:11job perfect the landing page body its job as move people more closer towards that call to action that we want them to take does its job now it's an opt-in page so there's a form job of the form is to get people to complete it it's the most obvious job but that is the right job that should be doing what happens if you have a 32 filled form things probably fall apart right and that's it it's over that's the end of it there's nothing more that can be done and you can see at exactly what point just like in an assembly line exactly what point things start to go awry if you look at

16:48things based on the jobs that they have to do so everything moves through we've got our whole from beginning to end and if you can move people through each step here making each element responsible for one task in one task alone all is part of a bigger assembly line where you're really creating a product and that product is your customer so they start out as a prospect and they move slowly towards the point of being a customer if you can measure and just focus on that one job per element you can dramatically we've seen at least simplify how you optimize your site and what you do at

17:26each step there you can look at if things fall apart on the email CTA if people aren't moving forward people aren't clicking that email CTA well now we can say okay that's the place it has to be optimized really straightforward really obvious it seems but you actually do it that it actually starts to come together so your headline has one job that's to keep them your button has one job is not to sell it is to get clicked that is its job and when we're in emails which we're going to talk about now your subject line has one job what could that be get open exactly to get opened it's the

18:09most obvious natural job for it there's nothing else that can be possibly have to do and yet we see people trying to summarize all of the content in their email in that subject line they try to sell in the subject line they say things that are going to happen three steps down in the subject line and they're not making the subject line responsible for that one job which is to get open I don't mean by I don't mean trickery either to get things open there's a lot of things we could say in a subject line to get people to open it that's not the goal but the goal is as part of an

18:38assembly line what can your subject line do to get opens that people then want to do the next thing that comes in so I was working with um meta lab they designed slack they run flow which Lance's CMO of and these are the three subject lines that we were testing for their welcome email for new trial users yeah started with flow welcome to flow and can I ask you something and the from name was Andrew at flow so the from name was the same across all of these get start with flow welcome to flow and can I ask you something which one of these is more

19:18likely to perform best guys I wasn't actually ready for you to answer yet to have it no it's true so well let's look let's walk through it right before we actually go there so what's the problem then with get started with flow as a subject line with the job of getting people to open the email it does that's absolutely true and that work happens in the email no you can't get started with flow in the email you're going to have to read the email click the button and move back to the app in order to actually get started with flow so it's no doing the job of getting people to open

19:56it's talking about work that's going to happen way down the path welcome to flow okay it's not talking about something that's going to happen way down the path it's talk about what's going to happen here but is it working hard is it doing its job would you keep hiring it to keep saying welcome to flow to people is it really working hard it's doing better than get started with flow and then can I ask you something what's what's working what can I ask you something then what's what's happening there what's going on is of course people have to answer that they're kind of engaged right I need to open that

20:34because you're going to ask me something so I'm going to open it that is the job that it has to do it has to get opened and it's found a way to do that it's worked hard to do that of course once you open the email you better actually ask me something or I'm gonna be pretty stoked or pretty unimpressed and I'm unsubscribe so we saw a fifty-four percent open rate versus the control which is pretty good right when we think about all of our your trial users how many more of them can actually engage with your product and start using it if they would just open that first email

21:08another one still in that sign up email flow is create some tests in flow and I think this might help you get started Joanna just more opens right it's working harder it's trying harder this one wasn't a test this is just a good example of a subject line that's working hard this is the welcome email for a Neal Patel's quick sprout drip campaign which I wrote and it is working very very hard to get opened boom all caps right not a lot of us would want to do that and a lot of us would want to be that notice to use all caps in our subject line with an

21:50exclamation point but it's getting people's attention that's a huge part of getting opened if they don't notice you're there they're it's you they can't open your email they didn't even know it was there get notice it doesn't mean you have to use all caps in yours but you do have to get noticed this is how you get more traffic and converted so they signed up to get a guide on traffic and conversion and so it's matching their expectations so that's good for getting opens as well and then this this is the tricky part that's called an empty suitcase people don't know what this is so they want to

22:22open the email in order to find out what this is how is it done he sends this like crazy right he has I think we all can appreciate the Neil Patel has a very large list I'm a four percent open rate but this is the unique open rate at eighty four percent eighty four percent again and again I know it fluctuates but that's where it averages out at 84 percent just for this for a lot of people who are choosing to open this email now what's inside of it is another story but this is all just trying to keep things responsible for the jobs that they are responsible for get more people

22:58into your email then make that email better and continue to optimize the whole process along the same lines your email call to action has one job your entire email everything in there has one job your hook or your lead which is opening of your email that opening line it has one job just like your headline it's to keep people but you have to work on it has to be doing work to keep people engaged in your email and going all the way through it every step every piece if something isn't doing work in the copy you're writing it doesn't belong there it has to go everything has

23:33to be part of the assembly line so this comes to us courtesy of Brad and Matt over at sent with us which is this cool victorious startup they did a guide transactional email which you can download for free on on send with us and this is one of the case studies in there so SendGrid SendGrid sent out this email all the pieces are doing their job it gets opened call to action here which is theydon't seven grid didn't circle it that's just for us obviously sign up for a free webcast what's it doing right what is it doing what is the job that that is trying to

24:13do the job is to get clicked the job is to get confidently click that's what they're supposed to do right that's it's one job they test it against this button which is preview the agenda which one is talking about the thing that's actually going to happen sign up for free webcast isn't actually going to happen once you click that you're one doing work to your several steps away from actually signing up versus preview of the agenda which is something that I can expect to actually do as soon as I click that button it makes the button infinitely more clickable or at least eighty-three percent more clickable this is the third

24:53and final thing that I know to be true it's not meant to be offensive of course you don't have a clue we don't have a clue nobody has a clue nobody here I don't have a clue you don't have a clue nobody has a clue what you should actually be saying to your customers and prospects nobody knows that you know who knows it only those customers know what you should say them and they don't consciously know what you shouldn't ask them what should I say to you but the point is that your messages don't come from you they don't come from looking in the mirror they don't come from sitting

25:26around talking about what we should say they come from listening the best copywriters are great listeners and copy editors and that is the extent of it you find the message that other people are saying you steal it and you edit it into your page we don't have a clue and as soon as we can get past that idea that the best message is actually sitting in your head the sooner you get past that the sooner your conversion rates do improve so the trick is not to write but to swipe swipe your best messages now this is a case study we did this with a keep and share so they are this solution

26:05they have like seven apps that all work together to do one thing and it was a little confusing just what the value proposition was so he did this as a value prop test for their headline we tested a whole bunch of value propositions against it you know with the value prop being what's unique and highly desirable about your product messaged so we sat around Lanson eyes that and thought through some value props we did a very bad thing and just sitting there looking at each other thank you well what's so great about this solution and we came up with a whole bunch I think we tested

26:35three against this control and it was flat there was nothing there was nothing happening we were like wow I guess there's no value proposition for this product but that's obviously untrue so I went through the site and I landed on I was looking through some of their testimonials and I landed on this one guy who wrote and he'd said something about you know you've escaped and sure has helped us eliminate most of our paper files so I was like okay well that's interesting it helps you eliminate paper who knew right so we tested that eliminate up to 99% of your paper files and finally at long last we

27:14got significant lift increase in engagement or clicks on the page just by listening to people that were not us by not looking in the mirror to find that message so we swiped it almost verbatim from a testimonial and importantly here you don't want to swipe from really polished testimonials where it's really been overworked a lot but from those raw initial thoughts that people share with you testimonials are one there's countless places you can go to find your message rather than looking internally right all your support emails Amazon reviews we're about to talk about any any place where people your prospects and your customers are speaking and

27:54writing naturally is the place you can go to to start looking for those sticky messages that are most likely to resonate with your prospects so here's an example we do this a lot swiping from Amazon reviews and I wish it was my idea it's not I swiped it from Jay Abraham um he talked about it once tuned it's just a really really easy way to go about especially if you're kind of scared of talking to customers which I know a lot of people are they know they should do customer interviews but when it comes down to it you kind of like keep postponing that you just don't get

28:27around to it um so if you don't love talking to customers we were just not that confident yet go through Amazon reviews and the idea there is to find a book or a product but I use books on the subject that you're try that's your really your you're solving for and here we did this with a with beach way which is a rehab center in Florida you might have seen this talked about it on mixergy and stuff like that but the control headline is your addiction ends here we were optimizing the copy on this site so the first thing I did was I went and I

29:03looked at the competitor landscape what are people saying how are they saying it what can we anticipate our prospects are possibly coming across when they're looking for their rehab center for themselves or for their loved one so we did a Content audit we looked at all of these other sites just to get a feel for how they were talking and these aren't really that they don't show just the wall of text that you would see on these these floral messages this really kind of condescending sort of tone almost right that you can't imagine would work for an addict nor would it work for somebody who's who loves an addict and

29:42was trying to get help for them it was really wordy and none of it was really hitting home on something nobody was daring to say anything at all and so I had that in mind when I was going through these Amazon book reviews so I looked at six books on living with addiction on overcoming addiction on alcoholism on drug use six different titles the books I didn't read the reviews I read all of them read through them looking for that sticky message what's the thing that people who actually experienced this are feeling and thinking and worried about and with this boring copy very um dry but yet

30:23floral kind of copy in mind and then the idea of an addict in mind this lime stood out to me when I was going through the Amazon book review somebody wrote this about one of when he was going through and writing his book review if you think you need rehab you do and it's stuck right and this is kind of the thing that you the more you do the more you read through these book reviews and things like that the more of these little phrases will stand out to you verbatim if you think you need rehab you do so we tested it we made it the new

30:52headline against that control as well as two other headlines one was a data point one was a testimonial nobody thought if you think you need to rehab you do would win every was like okay we'll Johanna you say you want to do it so okay fine we'll test it we'll see how it goes it beat everything we got a 400% increase in clicks on that button and on the next page although it's not responsible for conversions on the next page we got 26% more completed leads which when you're selling when you're running a rehab center in a bed is worth twenty thousand to thirty thousand dollars a month if you don't have those

31:31beds filled all the time it's very expensive if you have a good amount of leads to pull from obviously now you're making really good money so this was a huge win I didn't have to do anything more than listen and be a copy editor you just have to go out and see what people are already saying they're already saying it out there there's so much data out there that you could be pulling from to write your copy one thing about swiping though is do not swipe from other test winners so even the ones we've seen here the ones that we read about on our blog the ones that

32:01you see from your competitors don't swipe from them it's scary it's tricky it can't be done well so this is I said already seen this ad before yeah it's pretty popular right perhaps the best before me out of all time written by John Caples they laughed when I sat down at the piano but when I started to play you know almost every headline that we see on upworthy and BuzzFeed and all of those things they're written based on this exact headline formula so this has been and then of course the whole ad is also about selling piano lessons it's a pretty good ad if you were going to sell

32:37piano lessons you might want to start by kind of knocking this off on your site true also if you're gonna sell guitar lessons so jamorama sells guitar lessons and they came to us and said how can we optimize our site we were like well why not just try doing what they did in that ad why not try it right if it performs so well for decades why not kind of repeat their success or try to hear so that's what we did we tested they all laughed when I picked up the guitar but when I start to play we kept it as close to the control as we possibly could the control

33:12story not the control it's close to the high performing cables ad what happened it totally tanked and we ran it for a long time too and it just tanked it was like another one of those like Oh cringe-worthy kind of experiments but we did learn something really valuable and that is do not try to borrow other people's success and use it to create your own success 30% fewer conversions when we worked with something that should have been mastered we hadn't tested meant if you just gone out and done it because you saw it had worked for other people so that is the extent of what I know to be true and that is

33:51today only things are changing all the time right so I feel I'm still confident about this but you never know what another test will reveal and so that's why we continue to test and continue to kind of do the things that we're talking about in here today does not acting like the headline is everything but treating your button as it's as important as your headline you have everything one job to do don't ask it to do more than the one job it has to do and don't look internally for your next winning message [Applause] I'm clicks on the orange button the question was can you repeat the question

34:40you repeat his question oh sorry um 400% he asked that 400% lift for a beach way rehab just was just confirming that the clicks on the on the button we're four percent so you said can I ask you something work is still implied in that situation because you don't know what that person may be asking you they could be saying like could you felt your profile could you you know take care of my dogs for the weekend help me move is that to say the curiosity can be used to help Trump the problem of work yeah I think that's a great point and it did it's you know only got a

35:18fifty four percent open rate so there's room for improvement still right it can imply work there are times of course when the work has to be done can you make that work sound easier it's really it but yeah you know there's definitely room for improvement and the more you can pull out the tenth of work and push in a sense of value add the better things seem to perform okay someone had it yeah

35:46I was wondering what advice would you have for a new business or even an existing business that didn't have enough traffic to really do effective a/b testing super-tough right I know there are people in this room Lance is a cro pro I know Patrick's done obviously a lot of a/b testing too it's it's it's it's a really tough question that's where a lot of times if you're able to run a test you can only do an a/b test and you have to go out with the best possible foot forward or you have to like shoot for what's it called I'm not a I'm not of aim for the green guy it's

36:18a baseball analogy where you like the best I am seriously I failed gym class I was awful at it though the fences go for those no but you really do have to to focus all of your efforts on making that one better and of course I think this it still works this way that Google experiments you can set it up as a multi-armed bandit test which is better for less traffic because the winning the trending winner gets exposed to more people so a right Lance that tends to be a good approach so but it's super tough and that's where also sometimes not testing but but just listening to your

36:59users doing a lot of user tests and then finding out what their problems are at least and working to fix those without introducing new ones alright we have time for two more questions I was wondering if the can I ask you something was successful because it sounds like it's written by human whereas welcome to foo just sounds like every other piece of spam in your mailbox when you sign up for an account yeah exactly right like there's so many things that it was doing but the point it's trying to get you to open it so what are what can you apply it what can you do to work really hard

37:29and make it try to get opened whereas welcome to flow is we've all seen that right that's it's not even trying if it wasn't an employee that you were paying you would fire it because it's not working very hard but can I ask you something is using that curiosity gap like what's the thing that he wants to ask me who is this guy and it is personal right it's a it's personalized has I in it and you in it as well so does that one-to-one connection which is good pretty now can you tell us like the minimum amount of traffic you would expect to see before you think like running a/b tests

38:02on headlines is a good idea I mean yeah that's such a tough thing to answer I think a lot of people try to look for that minimum amount but the number just really isn't I mean I would love to say one number we used to say oh well if you can have you know 50 conversions per variation then that can be good but that's not actually that's not even that reliable either right that some people say you should have like 400 conversions per variation before you call anything and if we think about that that's like for some businesses that's a year of running a test right like it takes a

38:37long time and you probably wouldn't feel very confident but you can use testing calculators out there Evan Miller's testing calculators are really good for figuring out how long you have before you can call it a day with a test all right thank you Joanna's around for another 48 hours so please ask her more questions [Applause]