74: Apple Vision Pro - Christian Selig & Devin Davies

0:00hey quick editor note uh before we get into this episode so uh last week the Apple Vision Pro uh came out and I asked uh my friends Devon Davies and Christian seelig if they wanted to to attempt to do a different kind of episode of launch than I've done before um we we wanted to do a video episode where we actually you know are inside of the uh the vision Pros uh as our weird Persona things um and kind of talk about the launch of this new platform and their two apps that kind of went with it and had some success already um so that's what we did

0:36it was genuinely really fun but as you'll hear uh there's kind of a couple technical snafus uh lost recordings the video cut out at one point so you know if there's some weird stuff uh that's why and also if you're listening to this like you normally do in your podcast feed um there is a video version on YouTube I'll include uh the link to the YouTube page and the show notes of course um but if you're interested in that that'll be linked there it'll be the same audio either way which means the audio will also be a lot less edited than normal because uh I can't get away

1:10with nearly as many Cuts or tightening things up in video form as I can with audio so uh there's all my excuses out of the way let's get to the show Welcome to launched I'm Charlie Chapman and today I'm excited to bring you Devon Davies the developer behind the cooking app Crouton and Christian seelake the developer behind the vision OS YouTube app Juno

1:41Devin Christian welcome to the show hey yay so uh all right we just got right off the bat we we went ahead and knocked out the the awkwardness that is going to be this we just spent how long has it been like 30 minutes no it's been like 50 minutes uh that we've spent trying to get this set up and I'm at least about 50% sure that this is actually being recorded so so we'll see how this actually goes it's been the best period of My Life by far I'm just happy to be here all right well um I'll try to keep us on the rails

2:17as best as I can so uh the idea here is both of you have actually been on this show before Christian you were the like the second person I ever had on oh wow I didn't realize that yeah yeah it was kind it was during that crazy like original a week um and Devon you were on it was last year right yeah not long before you canceled it yeah you say that like they're related somehow I could never pop it you know um but no like my thought here was uh all three of us obviously as anybody can see we all have uh the vision Os or

2:55sorry the vision Apple Vision Pro as it's called um and all three three of us though you two more so than me uh have actually developed apps for it we were there on day one um Devin you had Crouton your cooking app that already existed for um all the other Apple platforms you you spent a very long time uh making it like truly native for the platform and making like a a cooking experience right and then yeah oh sorry go ahead oh I was going to say I feel like um cuz the product have been rumored for so long there's kind of a lot of time

3:32before it even launched to kind of ideate on what it might be like so yeah I think it was great to be able to like jump into it kind of running in a way and then Christian uh you you weren't necessarily I I don't think you were really planning the app that you came out with Juno until relatively recently whenever it came out that there was not going to be a native YouTube app is that right yeah yeah definitely not as or organized as Devon because man I remember like at WWDC like I think like the day after you were like mocking up stuff in sketch somehow before that SDK

4:04came out so yeah no I wasn't anything like that um I think the YouTube lack of a YouTube announcement came out and I was like oh that sucks and I was like oh man oh wait I'm an app developer like maybe I could maybe I could do something there and then yeah it was a quick dash for a week and managed to put something together I think we kind of and then mine was very much also the weak thing but with even less time and it's not even necessarily worth talking about so we probably really won't but I think we kind of represent the the different

4:30approaches that developers have taken to the platform um and both of you have had very interesting experiences post launch so I think I think I mean I know there's like a bajillion different pieces of content related to this new platform already but I I think we can kind of bring an interesting perspective in here so that was that was kind of the idea behind the show we'll see how it actually ends up going so to start out I want to like uh Devon I want to like let you talk through sort of the story of of not Crouton the whole app if whoa I just sent my notes flying across the room uh

5:06okay literally yeah yeah knocked over my TV um no uh so we've talked about obviously Crouton the app already on the show so if somebody's interested in that they should go listen to that episode but since the announcement last summer um to Last Friday which is like four days ago as we record um I just want to talk through the story of like how you built spatial Computing or whatever you want to call that into uh into Crouton yeah totally I feel like I should apologize off the bat as well for now I'm watching this for the fact that my mouth doesn't close all the Way's I have to say everybody's reaction

5:49to your persona in particular has always been like oh that's pretty good I think I think you have had the best one of all of them I've seen but you're you're self-conscious about the mouth not Clos which is pretty I think I'll just opt for keeping it very wide open so there's no [Laughter] just but yeah so Crouton um yeah I guess say Christian said like once the um after d the keynote uh there wasn't really like the didn't drop straight away there was like a couple of days there um before it came out um but I kind of was pretty excited about it and wanted to start think about

6:29how Crouton might look so I spend a bit of time in sketch just sort of trying to use the vision OS design Paradigm and mock up a few things um it is interesting actually like trying to use those tools that were built for kind of iOS design then trying to do things like the like these glass backgrounds oh yeah like in sketch yeah you run into some limitations pretty quick and laptop definitely gets a bit warmer trying to render so many like blur yeah glass Textures in P in particular it kind of struggles with right yeah which is weird because didn't like Windows Vista do that fascinating like did it so well too

7:05yeah yeah they must head of the curve that Vista but was your was your sketch markups like anywhere close to what you ended up shipping uh I mean the rough idea was there I think the okay I mean the basic concept of cooking in AR has kind of been I guess one of like the maybe the poster Childs of of VR stuff for a while of just like placing stuff in the kitchen so there's definitely some ideas that other people have had um um that then I could sort of draw on and add a few things in as well so um I think it's pretty much the same just the designs

7:36changed a bit as I've obviously then going from sketch and actually using Swift UI to build the things it's much easier cuz you just get the glass backgrounds for free in the simulator and you have to spend ages adding the extra like Reflections and the corners and things outside of the design itself though like what were the main obviously putting timers sitting over your pot that's you're running a timer on like that's the obvious like poster child sort of example but there's other things that you did so like what are the what are the spatial elements that you brought in to the app to make it

8:08sing yeah well I think even the big one for me is just having your um the recipe steps and the ingredients so big and obvious like if you have a recipe book or even the iPad I'm running Crouton if you cross the other side of the room you can't read it at all so if you head to the pantry to get some ingredients or something like that you then forget the ingredients you went for maybe that's just me you got to go back the book whereas if you can just turn around and like just see it pretty much as big from the other side of the room I think

8:34that's a big a big saving um in time yeah that's an example I all I've cooked with it so far uh just because my kids have been sick so I haven't actually been like properly cooking uh in the last two days but I did make some cereal with it uh which was a pretty intense process but even there I noticed exactly what you said which is like one of the nice things is that you can have your ingredients with you all the time but was the recipe less Long oh you know there's a lot there's a lot going on when I make Cheerios Christian but like uh but like it everything's really

9:11anchored in physical space which is cool but that means that you sort of almost end up with the same negative which is like if I walk over to the cupboard I have to like lean my head back to see where I left the ingredients list to see it now it's easier because it's gigantic and it's floating in my space but it would be cool if uh like a future API they give us which is like you can pin something to yourself if that makes sense so it like follows you around yeah I think something like that would be interesting it's hard to know how that would work with with multiple

9:44apps running like if you end up with like 10 Windows pinned to you or like who which app gets to control what gets pinned where is that like a system decision or does the user do it yeah it feels like something you should just be able to control like it's a it's a I almost said springboard but whatever the the framework is for the platform itself like I should have like a floating list of Windows I can like put down at the bottom of my view or something that kind of like follow me around or something like that you should into the window yeah yeah I was just thinking you

10:18could also just make it so like whatever was there last if if there's no room it just gets kicked out and the most recent one wins um yeah like only one thing can be there at a time yeah yeah or something just like an IOS app or something something yeah cuz I've been on FaceTime calls where I've been walking through my house uh and I like grab I'm being very careful not to actually do the gesture I'm I like grab the window and I carry you know my mom around the house with me uh which sort of felt at first it felt cool and then I'm like it's kind of the same as my

10:48phone though at that point like I'm holding it uh I should be able to just say like I want this to be with me and it just kind of hovers around with me right and I think for a cooking app or something cuz like you can you can hold the button to reenter your view but then that would take all your kitchen timers and pull them off of the thing that you stuck them to which would also kind of undo that that use case yeah you so you can pin things to users now as well but you have to do it in the immersive mode which means only

11:17your app can be running and I think part of the appeal of Crouton too is that you might have other things going like a video and um such like so if you didn't had to like close everything just to cook I feel like maybe be less uh inclined to use Vision profit cooking yeah okay I see what you're saying so an immersive app can pin things to the person so those apis do exist yeah yeah yeah the wheels really come off I don't know if that's the saying but you can do a lot more in immersive mode than you can in like you say whale or wheel

11:48wheels that's that's the NOA sco the

11:57whales um but yeah yeah you can do so much more in immersive mode but it's tricky because you get that balance of like should I kick everyone else out of the party yeah yeah yeah cuz I think for YouTube could definitely work yeah that's what I was thinking like if you were watching a YouTube video and you wanted to pin it to your head you're probably not like have 700 other things going on like if you're walking around the house vacuuming or something but yeah I don't know it would be cool for like 2.0 or something yeah it feels like the type of thing that developers should

12:23be able to control but maybe that does make sense in immersive mode but then the window system itself should let you just pin a window to yourself yeah maybe not even at the app level yeah yeah exactly it's kind of just like uh an OS feature of like like a menu bar app or whatever where it's like I want these to exist in a space outside of the rest of my my like spatial windows or whatever you want to call that right yeah and we're going to get in such a fun developer uh position where it's like how you had like pre- dark mode everyone had dark mode in

12:57their apps and then the actual API like oh god I've gots to support this indepently of the OS like what I do I was just talking to somebody about this I was like I think the thing that's super exciting about this is we haven't had an immature platform from Apple in a while I mean I guess Apple watch kind of but like at least I haven't played around in that space the same way it was still like 10 years ago yeah there's so much loow hanging fruit that like every dubdub there can be a bunch of small things that they do that all of us kind

13:28of gasp like ah you know I can uh the keyboard works or uh what's the one oh like I can reorder my apps on my home screen like everybody will be like yes finally or you can bring the the main window back to the foreground when you close all your second Windows yeah yeah that's one that might be interesting in this conversation too like baby stamps something developers have been fighting every developer it seems like building a vision OS app has sort of run into is what do you do if you open multiple windows and then you close your main window and there isn't like a OS

14:03Paradigm for that so everybody's kind of like making their own solution for that like adding a home button or something like what did you do Devon because you have that problem right uh at the moment I've just neglected it um that's what I was hoping your answer would be I I'm doing a few different things in different windows and there's nothing consistent I'm just hoping that we'll get like a 1. One release yeah I wonder what do you think dubdub is going to be I'm I've basically thrown out my whole plan here and we're just going to keep talking uh but like dubdub this year uh is like only what four

14:43months or something into the platform but do you think we'll get like a proper new release or will it be like a 1. five or something like that like up until you said how there's so many low hanging fruit I was like no chance there's going to be like Vision OS 2.0 AT dubdub even even though that's when they normally get previewed but now you're I'm like yeah they could just nail out like 20 really obvious hopefully quick features and everyone would be like yeah that's a 2.0 like yeah well and like when do you think they locked this version like I bet it was earlier than even normal because of

15:14hardware and stuff I could see or maybe it's the opposite I don't know yeah I was going to say I could see it being way earlier than normal or like they were coding until like last week yeah yeah so it's it's I don't know I bet you though like everything there's like feature lock right so like I'm sure the stuff that is in it they were probably up until the last minute getting bugs ironed out but I bet there's a lot of things that they cut from V1 that are like close to or maybe they are ready to go now but they had to make that choice in November or earlier

15:45September or something that's a good question I feel like they'd want to sh a 2.0 way you moved your head it looked like your head just like your neck just snapped oh no it did in real life that that's actually pretty accurate ofical emergency you hear sirens don't be alarmed yeah to be fair we wouldn't know if you're on the way to the hospital or not just no you're doing this fromit from the back of see my head bouncing from the CPR it my uh so okay so you like I said that kind of broke my whole thing here but like uh so we talked about like yeah the

16:27idea of cooking with there's a couple like very VR features though that you added too right Devon like there's like a measuring like a 3D measuring thing yeah so I I don't know about you but often in like a recipe when it says get like a 12 x 12 in tray I mean it just don't really convert for me anyway but you I read that and just have no idea what it means so I just grab a tray and hope for the best um so I thought it would be cool to be able to actually visualize what that size is and then hopefully by looking at it you can think

16:56oh yeah I've got you know like a casserole dish that's pretty close to that oh yeah for baking that makes I'm understanding yeah or like any often recip is just I don't know like to tell you what size to use um so you can just um tap on it in the recipe um just like look and pinch and then it um will open up like a volumetric space with the the size essentially so you just pop that on the bench and then um go grab what you need does that let you cuz I haven't tried that one yet does that like is there an affordance for placing

17:31something on the table itself or is it kind of like some guess workor because i' I've noticed I've struggled with that with some of the games I've wanted to put it on my you know coffee table and like there is no like kind of snapping two like I was expecting yeah I think uh there's it definitely doesn't snap to it but you get the shadow which helps a little bit you can sort of see when it connects if you want to do any kind of pinning it's pretty similar to the person we have to be in the immersive mode which then you could sort of you could detect I think

17:59the the bech top um and pin directly it feels like it's another one of those things where it's it feels like the the like OS windowing system should have like if you're really close to an edge cuz it detects it obviously because it's putting the shadow there if it just kind of would snap in to be like yeah I'm locking it into that spot but maybe it's not quite good enough that they almost don't want to encourage you to do that I don't know I don't have you played Fruit Ninja it's yeah cuz that has the floor stuff and works I had fruit landing on the couch next to me

18:31like bouncing off the cushions and it was very convincing oh I haven't I I was in like the most open part of my room you got to go somewhere messy and then well it was messy but not there wasn't any big furniture oh that's interesting yeah I'll have to try that so okay so that that was Crouton you did um I know we I don't know all of us did a lab I don't know if any of us are technically allowed to talk about it or not but just in a like helpful not helpful that's more or less the granularity I'm asking for here did you

19:06feel like the labs were useful for you Devon while you were building this out uh yeah definitely I the similar thing to like um building iaps I think if you build something in the simulator for an IAP you often then run it on your phone and you're like whoa these buttons are like all the wrong size um this is not usable and so yeah I think definitely going to a lab makes a pretty difference to just eying out a few things that you kind of Miss do we know are they going to continue doing those like I think so like yeah that's what I was thinking CU they were doing them

19:38like even a week before or something and I kind of had the thought like a lot of developers probably can't afford to buy one of these but like if they live in one of the you know blessed places uh being able to go to a lab would still be super useful cuz yeah that was my experience too Devon like especially with the audio stuff it just literally Works different uh than it does on real device uh so I couldn't even test a lot of my stuff until you know it actually I actually got one of these and what about you Christian what you did you do a lab

20:11after you started Juno or was it all before no it was it was I wanted to play around with pixel Pals at the time um and so it wasn't too helpful for Juno just because I hadn't conceived it yet but um it it was definitely helpful for that and just kind of figuring out like how it works as a as a paradigm I guess like the like you play around with an iPad simulator and even if you don't have an iPad you're like okay it's a 2d rectangle like I kind of got the gist of it even though like absolutely running it on device is a million times more

20:35helpful but like with this I found it Amplified it even further like you're like so so many things you're like oh that'll work well like doesn't work at all um so yeah I found it I found it super helpful just in kind of like recalibrating your expectations like as how the device works and yeah I definitely recommend going if you're like um if you have the means to like the calculus is tricky because for me it was like it was on the same Coast as me but I still had to like leave Canada and go to New York and it was like you do the math and you're like like three of

21:02those maybe and it would pay for the Vision Pro and you're like so like you've got people like Emanuel who makes card pointers who I think like lived at the labs because it was probably like next door to him it was really easy to get to yeah yeah and it's like that then it's a no-brainer for you um like if it's just if it's an easy access but for a lot of us it's a little trickier you did the in-person pickup uh for your actual device right so does that mean you did what essentially if you just to demo what you would do basically like they were like like do basically like

21:32they were like do you want to demo and kind of like pushing for like you should I think it was because like we were also the first of the day so I think the employees were kind of like jonesing to like try out this thing they've probably been like practicing for days um and no they were like this is Christian seelake like yeah yeah yeah no that that that was definitely definitely heard a lot of that but it was the washed up Reddit developer walks into the Apple store but no it was no there were very good and they were it was it felt like they were

22:00um like I don't know like you do a school play and it's the opening night and they're like okay this is what we've been practicing for um and they seemed really excited to do it um and it was just a really cool demo so um I think I got the whole whole sheam there was definitely some like technical glitches as they figured things out but like it went incredibly smoothly I thought for like how it was basically the first time so in terms of cuz the the reason I ask is like uh a lot of people maybe can't get to Cupertino or New York or Sydney

22:28or wherever but like if but more people have access to an Apple store do you think doing one of those demos if you're wanting to develop for this would be useful or is it a lot more like this is watching a movie you know which isn't necessarily helpful as a developer I guess it depends can you like tell the Apple employee yeah I'm totally uh following your demo and then just go off and likeall X code um cuz does it take you through any of the default apps at all like do you do you get the experience obviously you do get the experience of looking and tapping but I

22:58just mean the sort of interactive model that's what super weird they bring You Through Safari to start um and then you go into photos and then I think it's mostly the Apple TV app um so there's definitely a moment and they have you rearrange windows so there's definitely an opportunity to kind of get at home with the operating system that that I think is really helpful but um definitely like similar to the labs make sure that your Apple store has it because I went to mine and they were like we don't sell these in Canada like what are you doing here don't I thought you had to sign up for a spot that was

23:28also an issue they said like it it did not go well um okay so I guess that's Crouton so Juno like we kind of touched on it it's a lot shorter of a story but like what's the what's the like uh the impetus for why you made it we already kind of said they announced there wasn't a YouTube app but yeah it was basically just like I watch a lot of YouTube and like for me the Vision Pro was kind of like oh this is going to be an awesome like content consumption device like having like a massive screen not even if you're on a plane but just like sitting

23:59in your living room and like I don't have 120in TV um and I thought that would be so cool um and I was kind of like crestf falling that I was like oh there's not a YouTube app like up until like 99% of the announcement of the vision Pro's life I was like this will be something I'll be able to use and they kind of dropped that at the last minute and I was like sh like can I make this even a little better for myself because in Apollo I like there was like and if you go to like hour videos it's almost all YouTube videos so I had to

24:25build like a somewhat competent YouTube player um so I had a lot of code that was kind of like an experience interfacing with YouTube in some capacity so I was like oh if even if I could just take like Apollo's implementation and make that into a YouTube app that would be infinitely better than the website um and thankfully it was and I and I kind of used that code as a jumping point it was able to put together something pretty quickly that I was like yeah this is at least a lot better than the website for a 1.0 and hopefully Beyond I can take it substantially further even yet so then

24:55so you got that put together pretty quickly was it like you were using the actual YouTube API and then making a like native Swift UI app right it's not like it's a web rapper it's it's sort of like a hybrid between both like YouTube has like um an API in the same way Reddit had an API um and that you can you can call he says with sadness yeah moment of silence Good Times um yeah where you can call like an endpoint and a returns Json which is great and you can even upload videos but there's no component um to be like can I um like get the video with this ID to like

25:30show in a in an AV player view controller or whatever yeah um which is so it's kind of like you're a little limited there so I was like okay um what do I want to do there and with Apollo funnily enough like I did it's it's effectively a web rapper and that YouTube gives you like this this video player element and then you can call a bunch of JavaScript methods to interface with it so you can call like pause video doplay video you know do enable subtitles or whatever um and you get basically like this programmatic access to the underlying video player even if you don't get the actual video file so

26:01you can't do like cool stuff like airpl or like download the video um but you can programmatically interface with the video so you can put like native controls up um on top of this like web layer and interface with it directly so you kind of get like something that's substantially better than just a web view um but not quite as good as a fully native view um and that that was kind of the basis for it and that was how Apollo operated and it worked convincingly enough that I was pretty happy with it um so that that was kind of the where I was approaching it from if you can

26:33believe it I am actually familiar with those apis because I built a uh I built a a video player inside of the Windows 8 tablet app for the grand old oery uh way back in the day for the what do you think it still works the grand old opery uh it's like is that like an opera uh no it's like a country music music uh Hall in Nashville it's where like the music scene I think like kind of spur out of Music came from and you built like an them it's where all music came from yes amazing uh it's kind of incredible yeah but you like built their but yeah yeah

27:15it was whenever I was doing the like Windows 8 uh consulting stuff back in the day um but yeah yeah that it was really fun cuz it was like same kind of thing I was building like a video player that had like native controls over an if frame essentially but you can call into the JavaScript is I I bet you the API is surprisingly similar even though that was like oh gosh 2013 maybe something like that I have no doubt it's it's probably virtually identical but the nice part there is that it is just dvis script calls to an HTML element basically so it's like people are like YouTube's going to come

27:48along and then smush you in some capacity and it's like I don't think so but like in so far is like there's not really anything too SM like there's no API Keys here there's no um you know quota limits per day it's just like you're talking to like a physical thing basically and saying play and pause yeah for the video you are using the API for no I'm not actually for the website I'm basically just um so I get basically the YouTube HTML um and then I do like a crap ton of CSS and JavaScript to like like yank out elements like um hide elements like move elements to kind of

28:21make it feel more Vision osy um because it turns out so that's actually a web view like the whole thing is except for the um yeah yeah it turns out like if you if you remove enough stuff like the transparent um Vision window starts to show through that's wild okay I I honestly scratching away CS layers until you see the and there's certain stuff like if you have like the sidebar which has your subscriptions and everything like I'm like oh like I could take that and just kind of move that off screen and instead make that like a native element and um like similar stuff with

28:53like the search bar and whatnot like you can like do a lot to maybe like yank out the web elements and replace with Native stuff um while still having like the core thing because yeah doing the YouTube API for that would be tricky and so far as um funny enough they talked about this on ATP recently the podcast where um the YouTube like data API which is what that would be using like has completely nerfed itself in kind of a Reddit way um lately where when I signed up for it with Apollo and historically with Apollo I got 50 million requests per day um and they request credits or

29:25something right exactly exactly and now if you sign up you get 10,000 which like if you do the math is like 0.2% of what you had um so so if I was to build with that like You' very quickly run into limits even just of throughput but you also you don't get stuff again similar to the Reddit API you don't get stuff like recommendations where you're like oh if you liked you know this MKBHD video you might like this Mr Who's The Boss video um you would just purely get like your subscriptions which is great and what a lot of people use but like if you want

29:55more recommendations and whatnot like it's kind of to be able to Leverage The YouTube um that's what people are expecting if they open a YouTube app right4 for better or worse I was wondering with the so obviously with the Apple TV app they've kind of got the more immersive viewing mode where the screen pushes like right back and expands is that an API at all or is that completely locked out I think that is an API like there's a WWDC or there's maybe a sample project um that goes over that that I have downloaded and been may need to open but it's I'm pretty sure you

30:24just dock a view really far away um and then you you basically create the immersive environment um in the immersive mode yeah yeah as far as I know there's not an API though to take any of like apples um immersive environments and like Leverage those unfortunately yeah it's kind of annoying like it feels like I should be able to take any app showing video or photos like really I should be able to like almost like the full screen button on the Mac I should be able to full screen it and then choose from the de buil-in Apple ones cuz like the Mount Hood one where you can see the reflections on the

30:56water yeah I want to watch movies on that but like unless it's an Apple TV that's just not an option which is really kind of annoying yeah yeah um yeah I almost wonder if it's like a licensing thing or like Mountain Hood was like only show yeah yeah I don't understand mood itself the Rangers there are really tied about IP yeah fires and Apple IP are there too they need to get oh did I disappear for you guys no good as ever oh there we go okay I disappeared from the feed that was recording which is interesting oh well um yeah they need to get one um in the on that street where

31:40the uh the large the small Boulder the size of a large Boulder uh that's not M hood is it I don't think so I'm just saying that needs to be one of the environments oh opportunities are yeah I mean you I'm sure there's some AI to build that into like stereoscopic 3D yeah exactly yeah yeah it does feel like the environments are going to be like the Apple watch uh third party watch faces where it's like if they have nothing they're going to be like hey we got two new environments this year and like that can be a good 10-minute segment to fill up some time that's fair

32:15which I don't think I'd be mad though I feel like I'm surprised how much I enjoy the environments especially them the Mount Hood one like just sitting by that Lake just I don't know it's peaceful so I haven't played around want that too much so like if you took like an existing like window and Juno or something and and just like put it really far back like you can't put it far back enough I assume to make it it like stops before the water it's like there's like a limit from normal windows it's weird because um you there's a limit to how far you can push a window

32:46back but if you just stand up and walk forward you can push it back farther and then you can go sit back down and it will be that far away so theoretically that's a handy tip you want get into the water so could you walk into the water of Mount Hood I think no matter what it'll it'll start fading out if you get out of a certain Zone in that environment but if you fade the environment up I think it like starts you from that spot if that makes sense so you're always like in the middle okay I got you I got you yeah it's a shame

33:18there's not even any like apis to programmatically place like even your own Windows like yeah I don't know it would be cool to be like place this slightly out their or something but it's always yeah I do understand that's going to be like like it does kind of make sense that that's at at the OS level to me yeah well it's like I even just for iOS development or Vision OS development rather I wish I hate how I'll be running xcode and like have it full screen and then it'll just appear right in front of me um yes I'm kind of like but I'm coding like get out

33:49of the way like go over there um and every single time I run the app I have to physically move it um if you like look over to the side you can it'll pop up yeah that's probably but I mean that's you know kind of annoying still it be nice if you could at least specify like a you know like leading trailing top bottom kind of position relative to your own window yeah yeah I guess if they give you too much control Facebook would put like some something creepy in on your wall in the background that you would noticed for a week well and selfishly it's like

34:24if you've ever done Mac development it's like yeah have all those controls but then it's like it's so easy to make something wrong too like like ethically no no no well you know you no no always famous for uh but just like things behaving the way you'd expect them to cuz like the moment that you can break out of the system the moment you you now are responsible for keeping it up with every change that they make to the system Fair which they don't always advertise so it's just like slight Behavior changes now your app starts feeling off more and more um but yeah it would be nice if the

35:06environments themselves were something that third parties could make them and then others could join in but I think just like the Apple watch it's going to be a long time if ever that they do that because they want those those things are probably optimized to the nth degree um I'm even curious how you like um if I wanted to say fine I'll I'll do my own like um I I guess I understand it from like reality kit view where you you could basically build like a sphere and then like you know like Telegraph a material onto it but it's like what is the do you just license like a really

35:40high-res like mp4 file or something like what is the I guess the well they're 3D they're 3D environments like they have 3D meshes you know if you shift your head you can see around rocks the and like I guess to answer my own thing there are third party ones because if you go into the Disney app or the HBO app they have their own and those use the same API because you can dial it in and out just like in the regular windowed environment only in the immersive space so is it like a scene in reality composer Pro that they like you know built like that oh interesting and then

36:15maybe like a video file for the sky oh okay yeah there's probably a single sphere uh what do you call that like a hdri um uh hdri m is that what it's called like a 360° photo basically that's like your Sphere for the background but then there's a bunch of foreground elements that are close to you so that You' get the depth that would be my guess yeah which I guess yeah for Juno since you can't like do their immersive spaces the same way I guess that's you would have to build your own if you wanted to have those with some YouTubers and have like a lonus TI tips

36:52office background actually that would be pretty sweet like imagining being in mkbhd's office see his robot camera like in the background even like even if you didn't go so ham as to have like you know everything 3D built like if you just had like a 3D photo like it would kind of be cool um 3D photo would be super easy yeah yeah and I I wonder if that's the play um just just to have You' want a floor at least though that's yeah it would look really weird if you didn't have that okay this is this is giving me some idea I too if you could

37:27go on like something like Fiverr and and commission like a professional 3D artist to like I wonder how much the skills are transferable to reality composer Pro um or or however you I would imagine they would be I would build me something cool yeah because yeah I imagine it's not something you can learn in like a weekend to what are you are you leaning back and then leaning forward in your chair cuz your your torso just keeps s violently forwards and backwards like Johnny Bravo oh King me um I'm on like my couch which has like um it's like an L sectional and I'm on the L part I guess

38:11so my legs are kind of like kicked out and I'm like half leaning back half leaning forward I'm a fidgeter um and yeah this is and the nice thing about Zoom is I could see how cursed I looked uh but with this FaceTime stuff I can't um let me see if supports the settings app yeah and my my video feed for some reason just keeps cutting out on the zoom recording just there go I'm back now so you know for anybody watching that's wondering why that's happening I I don't either no but I do know what's happening so there's that um on it so yeah so uh okay so we talked about you

38:50know the development of both of these let's talk about the launches themselves because both of them have been really fun to watch from the outside side I imagine fun and maybe overwhelming from the inside so let's start with Crouton cuz that kind of happened first so when the when the first uh set of reviews came out what like three or four days before the actual devices were released to the public uh one of the very few reviewers that was out there was Joanna Stern with the Wall Street Journal and she did this crazy cool video like she always does where she put it on and left

39:21it on for like 24 hours and went to his cabin in Colorado or something and went skiing and all the stuff but one of the like big segments of that video the one that I was seeing everywhere on social media afterwards was she use your app kuron to cook a meal and was doing the timers and basically did this really cool demo what what was that like one just seeing that like when was the first time you saw that that actually was was in the video uh yeah I mean it was it was all pretty overwhelming um I think I first I think Christian actually posted it

39:55somewhere it was like 300 a.m. in New Zealand I was like know Deon it's you I don't know why I checked my phone at 3:00 a.m. but I did um and then didn't 10 texts I think you thought was a you broke through my do not disturb like I need a plane to Canada um yeah so I uh I watched the video I guess I should should backtrack a little bit I um I guess like something that we do I'm sure all of us do when we're like going to release something we like email a people just to let them know um you know they've got something new coming

40:29out and and often for me that usually like doesn't lead anywhere so I just do it as kind of part of the process and then move on um but uh yeah this time obviously uh Joanna got the email and downloaded Crouton um which was unexpected and and pretty sweet um and so then I guess when the video dropped and Christian said it was in there it's pretty nerve-wracking before you watch it cuz you've got like no idea how they're going to react or like what they might say about the experience I thought this was the future until I used this app yeah yeah that's true exactly well and I guess especially

41:05with this device um I guess like we've talked about like it's not something we've really had access to before the launch so I haven't even really used Crouton for that long um like on a device I definitely haven't used it in a kitchen um and so uh experiencing that for the first time through the Wall Street Journal was like a lot um but it was yeah but it was pretty it was awesome um how positive she was about it and it seemed like in the review it kind of was part of what made the device click for her in some ways and even in some of the comments on the

41:41video normally YouTube comments are kind of like dire but there was a lot of positive comments as well from people being like Oh that timer thing actually looks pretty sweet um I think I sent you a text that night that was like if you want to go full uh was it Nathan from uh from uh Ted lasso where he like is obsessed with going through Twitter I was like just search Vision Pro cooking or something on Twitter and it was just it was literally like an unlimited stream of comments uh that you could have probably gotten I probably shouldn't have sent that to you was it

42:12was it a bad for your mental health his hair started turning the gray color yeah exactly yeah it's lucky I've got this Persona to hide all the damage um yeah I think that was definitely it was sort of a bit of a roller coaster I think there's a lot of people that saw it and were like super receptive to the idea and then uh there was also I guess it's easier to have like a hot take of like oh three $3,500 device to set timers like just get a catchen timer I think easy thing to joke about right because it is like weird and different and and you can see the obvious like

42:48you're wearing a bucket on your face using a knife like there is a story there that is like easy to sort of make fun of and people took that opportunity to make jokes yeah so it was a bizarre experience um for that day even like a couple of days like just scrolling my normal Twitter feed and like seeing screenshots of like my app like just often and yeah seeing different people's opinions on it so it was like it was pretty cool and it was also um when you see like a lot of the negative ones it can also be kind of a lot to kind of

43:17take in um but I think I think overall it's like it was s like obviously super exciting and it was cool as well getting a lot of messages from other like Indie developers I feel like when stuff like this happens it's almost like a win for the whole Indie Community because when the review comes out it's all the sort of like the big name apps and so for like one of us little guys Christian to get something in there yeah yeah exactly yeah it's always somebody like you represent big Tech yeah yeah yeah it's Disney uh guy from Hells um yeah but no I think it was like

43:53it was super cool um just to kind of um hear from everyone and I think yeah a chance for like every Indie developer to kind of I guess celebrate that we kind of push through the barrier a little bit um such a sense of like Pride for like other people I don't know it's weird like it doesn't feel like we're a very competitive industry amongst each other like I don't know like you're just like you're not like damn I wish that was me you're like holy Devon's crushing it like good for him there's definitely some rivalries I I feel like that kind of exist in some places but for the most

44:24part especially in like sort of Dev scene it's like it's just exciting when somebody you know uh has a success yeah yeah like and part of it is I think it feels like we're all struggling through the same things pretty publicly together so it's not like we're all we only see each other at awards season or something you know where you're competitive it's like most of the time we're like man I can't figure out this uh like for me it's like all these obscure audio bugs and then the only people who have also run into into that are usually other people who make looping ambient noise apps and they will

45:01frequently be like oh hey I ran into that too and I filed this feedback or oh I tried this hack and I got it working and once you have that interaction with somebody it's like it's hard to ever be mad at that person right right and these platforms are so big that it's it's never like you need one person to succeed and everyone else has to fail like I remember like I think it was like rivan was talking about it how they were like are you going to beat Tesla and it was like dude there's like 1,700 car Brands like if you just walk down the

45:27road like and they're all most of them are doing great like you don't need one car brand to win like that would almost be like everyone can do great yeah it's interesting and yeah it is it is really nice when it feels like cuz I I feel like I see this with both of you online too where it's like I feel like if I have something written about or whatever I feel like I have to be self-deprecating about it like oh yeah but it sucks whatever but when other people are excited about it it makes it feel like it's okay for me to be excited about it does that make any sense yeah

46:03know that's a good way yeah it's kind of like a weird like I don't know I do I do appreciate when people send me something that I've already seen because I have Google Alerts and stuff I do legitimately get excited whenever I see that right it's not like I'm just being polite it's like a legit like oh yeah like sometimes I'm worried that people see me responding to multiple people every time being excited and they're like oh okay he's just playing this game it's like no like I each time somebody sends me one of those like oh you're featured in wherever it's like another reminder that real people see this stuff

46:36and it's not just numbers on the computer it never stops cool it was pretty cool with this cuz I had like just a couple people that I don't even like talk to very often just like friends like in in the real world um that like sent me a message like hey I just saw you in like the Wall Street Journal I was like that's pretty crazy it's a pretty crazy sentence yeah yeah yeah yeah I was asking you that the day it happened I was like I was like is does the Wall Street Journal have the same cuz here Wall Street Journal is like in the same sort of

47:08breath as New York Times or or the times or BBC or something it's like kind of like a institution but I didn't know if in New Zealand if that had the same instant recognizability like it sounds important but people probably don't have the same they're like oh that sounds like an important us publication but I don't read it um right definely and Deon gets to go like my buddy Joanna now all the time which isting a little old my good friend that's been that's been my joke because she responded Sor today yeah yeah ohing with Jo and then uh so Crouton had this really cool press but

47:50then how did that convert into actual sales cuz that's the weird thing about this is well there's two pieces one is nobody could just go buy it because the device didn't even exist yet and two uh almost nobody like she said the name of the app but I've noticed it's sort of just become shorthand that the Vision Pro and cooking are this thing and a lot of people don't even say the Crouton app they just talk about it like it's just this default app that's built in it's been yeah I saw there was like a few top 10 like uh Vision Pro apps like lists on

48:23Twitter and it would be like you know like Juno d d and then it'll be like default Timer app and a screenshot of Crouton what it's like this is not it's not built in guys so it's def interesting quite a compliment to be like on the caliber built-in apps I mean if you want to look at it like that I guess I guess so but then I have to be the awkward guy that's like oh that's me that's me I've been trying to do that for you where I where I see it because yeah it's really awkward when it's yourself being like look at me look at me yeah I just going

48:55back to your sort of original question it's an definitely an interesting one because normally I guess around like iOS update season everyone has iPhones so when you get picked up by the PRI people can just go to their phone and download the app whereas even if they don't have the new phone or the newest OS yeah and so whereas with this it's like I think a lot of people probably watch it and think oh that's probably an interesting um Vision Pro app but I'm never going to buy one of those so like whatever and they might not think to look at it um on their phone and so kind of like getting

49:22featured on the Ferrari store or something it's an honor but like the mar is a little smaller I will say hopefully if if this is something that people are like this is the the thing that they have in their head it's the story oh I just got a low battery warning that's the first time I've gotten that I have a plug right here though two hours baby but because because it it's a thing that I think is sticky in people's minds like they associate these two things together hopefully that will mean as people pick up new ones they immediately look for that cooking app hopefully they

49:58can find what that cooking app is key the keyword yeah yeah so as long as I don't get overtaken no the subtitle is just that cooking app yeah because um there's a lot of not a lot I definitely saw in a few places like there' be like summaries of what you can do on Vision Pro and it would be like um like watch videos um move Windows around cook is like the third thing that you would buy this for it was like a very yeah bizarre kind of experience to be part of sort of the Catalyst of that I guess idea I also feel like I should have said at the very

50:37start of this that I don't necessarily recommend that you should cook with your Vision Pro on and as if you saw the video Joanna dismisses the warning that says that you probably like shouldn't do this and so um I think I'm still of the view that with the at least this first generation if you are going to cook with it that's that's definitely at your own sort of risk that's fair that's very responsible it's like a yeah it it feels like a preview of the future that's kind of that's the way Joanna was treating it which is like what you can hope for cuz yeah you can imagine it

51:11being treated the other way which is like this is a horrible way to cook I would never do this I can't see the pepper but it's like it's not it's not meant really to be you're not expecting people to really be bringing this into their lives cooking all the time it's more like you're giving them this vision of what what it can be like and you can actually experience it now just in a kind of yeah slightly subpar way because of the pass through and stff I think as well like the to me the operating system itself feels really well built out and kind of established and so the things

51:44that are going to change over time is going to be the hardware and and the way that it fits on your head and things like that and so if I can build the whole experience now and kind of get a hi start on that and try and I guess build a bit of recognition with people then when it gets to the point where it it fits great on your face then I've hopefully got I don't know how long it would be but like 5 years of kind of time where I've been able to build that out and it's now ready to go as opposed to waiting all of that time and then

52:08sort of jumping on it and so it's kind of I think there's definitely like a long game here of like you may not use it now but you can experience it and hopefully get a a sense of what do you think the hardware jump would be that would make it like um more possible or like feasible to to cook with it uh I think it would be probably the field of view so you could see down a bit more like if you're chopping you you really have to look down like right down what mean um and then um probably just I guess maybe the clarity of the pass

52:38through so like in Joanna's video she talked about the color like if you're trying to cook your food to a certain dness it's I think going to be a bit more challenging that's fair and like in low light in particular it starts getting pretty rough which if most people that don't have super nice kitchens it's like you're stove is probably black and you have cabinets right above it so that's usually a dim area um and so being able to see we this like giant window by by our kitchen so it's like forus it's like really good Vision Pro territory so during the day well yeah that's true but New Zealand

53:13gets 20 hours of sunlight at oh yeah that's right that's right Alaska permanently uh like a Lord of the Rings uh scene yeah so so okay but in terms of like sales themselves though have you cuz Crouton already existed have you even seen really much of an impact at all or is it more like you know this is some cool recognition publicly but that's really it uh yeah I think it's um it's definitely had like a like a big impact I think uh if it was if it had happened a few years down the line where more people had the device at the time I think it probably would would be more

53:51significant but it's definitely I had pretty low expectations going in into it cuz I I didn't actually think that like my cooking app was going to get much attention so to have any kind of boost has been pretty exciting um and it's well exceeded kind of my expectations uh for what that would be and I think even like not even from like a financial perspective um there's been at least one interaction I had with someone where like they already knew what Crouton was which is not an experience that I'm I'm used to so like I don't know if you can necessarily put a price on some of just the recognition

54:26that might come from it that it's now grocer store and they were like cout guy cout guy yeah and Kaio New Zealand yeah no uh just on online but nor have to be like hey you should check out Crouton this recipe app and it's sort of now I can sometimes at least for this week before everyone forgets I can just say Crouton there really is like at our scale when a lot of your um like if you you don't have like an ASO team or something right so like we're sort of earning our own uh like users right in some capacity and a lot of the way that most of us do it I feel

55:05like is I'm noticing my shoulder just keeps popping up like it's I don't know what that's about I'm not doing that I can tell you I thought you had music playing and you were kind of dancing no I mean I'm off my head of course but like I don't know why my shoulder is just flying up like that um anyway but like we're if we have to acquire our own user somehow a big way that we're doing that is through press right through Apple features or 9o5 or whatever or our Twitter following or whatever so like those are long games where it kind of builds over time and so being known as

55:41the XYZ person like Christian I was listening to the latest waveform podcast and they were like talking about the DRM stuff and they were like yeah we texted Christian seelig the guy who who used to make Apollo which is what they I think they did mention pixel files but of course they started it with used to do Apollo I'm just happy to be included at all yeah but I mean it's just like you were a person they could go to for a random question did that interaction help your sales unlikely right but uh that continued relationship as being a reliable person to reach out to that

56:17pays dividends when you do have a big launch and it's like you might get a retweet or a mention in a video or something like that right so oh exactly I I think those types of things they're not as like one toone mapping to money but you know it all it all sort of feeds into you're a member of this community that people look to and then that pays whenever you are looking for attention MH oh for sure and speaking of attention then uh let's talk about Juno because Juno on launch uh you didn't get a Wall Street Journal uh video still still hoping for Joan she snubbed

56:58you deep DM are all on red turns out there is quite a lot of demand for uh for YouTube on Vision OS because at least last I saw you you said that like it's already paid for itself The Vision Pro yeah that was kind of like my super long-term goal was like it would be cool if it just paid for this you know headset um but but one terab or 256 gig I I got the yeah it depends if you yeah if you added the accessor did you get the tripel case well your import tax and yeah no yeah that changes the calculus a bit but I got the 256 gig one so I

57:36wanted it to be as much in my favor as possible um for sure but it would um yeah yeah it was like I was like if they ever paid for it that would be super cool but like I think for me it was just fundamentally like I just want this app for myself and hopefully someone else gives a crap and thankfully it seemed like something that like a lot of people did care about enough um and and it always makes for a fun story when it's something like um um you know big cooking didn't make an app but Devon did um and you're just like that you know

58:06trillion dollar industry or you know Mega Corp um wasn't able to put something together but like you know this guy in his apartment was able to like that makes for a fun story too and I think um like yeah because I think we're all waiting for you know Martha Stewart to come along and with like some revolution in the VR space but I did not know where that was going on what is that a deep cut that I don't know no no no I mean like in VR well in cooking I just mean like I was you could you could make the argument that someone like Martha Stewart would coming and you

58:38know blow us all away with you know her cooking experience um but I think a lot of people but it said we got Devon for the better I would argue um I don't know this this this has lost its whales but um little wait was that even in this version of the recording or was that like one of our failed past failed recordings I don't even know if that's a deep cut to this episode yeah no this this has lost any Seance of analogy but but I just feel like you could make the argument that you would expect like I think unlike the iPhone 1.0 launch like

59:14you had Epicurious and I don't even know if they still exist but you had these big names like coming in and being like this is our app to do the thing um and it seems like a lot more of like the mega corpse had more of position of like wait and kind of see um if it's worth their time um which seemed a little silly to me and like I guess a lot of us Indies who were like well fine we'll just build stuff we like um and and I think yeah to a large extent a lot of people are appreciative that someone cared enough to build like a really cool

59:42cooking app or a YouTube app or what have you yeah it's interesting cuz like yeah like even the Apple watch when that came out there was like Twitter and Starbucks and like all these Brands I do think there may have been a less learned which is a lot of them ended up kind of abandoning that um that's true yeah although I don't know if they built it out of excitement or if they built it out of apple reaching out to partner uh you know I don't know but it's it does feel though like this is a much more clear yeah new platform like especially for any kind of like media

1:00:15consumption just seems probably also the current develop like the current environment in Tech isn't exactly exuberance right this last year uh in terms of like lay in terms of there's just lots of layoffs and right so are there a lot of people who are just excited at Big Corp and want to bring their app over I mean they probably are because there's there's still lots of people at all these places but um that could also contribute too but I don't know yeah it is it is interesting is desire enough from like the lowly employee enough to sway like the billion dollar Corp like is there a

1:00:51revenue cat app yet has don't get don't get Deon going on that we don't we don't have a uh we don't have a native IOS app either it's like our pwa I'll settle for a vision OS app you'll settle for a vision okay we'll do that but not have a IOS app how about that I want like 3D graphs this is necessary that go up and then drop down very steeply and like the the help docs or Charlie in spatial video kind of walking you through it ooh there we go I want to be a what I like this idea because that means I need to

1:01:27expense a 3D camera that's what I'm hearing those must be expensive I 3D cameras yeah uh I don't know like I actually just saw you know insta 360 the like 360 yeah they actually have one that's like it's like a camera I'm hold oh actually you can see my hands look at this oo it like folds in half so there's a camera on like either side and then that's a 360 camera right because there's a camera pointed on either end but then you can unfold it and then they're about ey length apart the two lenses and then you can shoot uh 3D video oh interesting and is it like the same quality as like

1:02:10a Go Pro or something I assume it's not like going to blow anyone's mind yeah I don't I that part I don't know I don't know how it would compare to like the iPhone right that's really the the real comparison I guess but I guess even something like this Mount Hood one you don't need like like I don't know it's well lit like you could it could probably look decent on an iPhone even so maybe maybe you don't need an IMAX camera what speaking about like 360 video really quick um so I I launched a another app on the store just day one just sort of for for fun just like a 360

1:02:41video player um cuz I noticed in the they were publishing those lists of like apps that were going to be available and it didn't seem like there was going to be any just for playing your own like 360 content um so I just thought i' I'd put one together because it's straight uh it's Ry r o l l i it's a bad name because I have to spell it but um I didn't have time to come with something better um and it's really interesting because yeah as far as I know there still is no other 360 apps for playing your own content and um what it also

1:03:15seems is there's nothing for playing your own like 180 degree content and so I've been getting like a lot of negative reviews from people because they downloaded it to play their 180° content and it doesn't work because it it assumes any video it's got is 360 so you wrap it in the sphere around people right yeah I mean so I can probably do an update to to ship it but it's uh the harder part is when it's the like stereoscopic 180 cuz it it's a single video feed with both eyes and so oh that's a thing that exists apparently it's a big thing that exists and there's

1:03:48a there's a lot of people that are unhappy that they can't and I'm getting the brunt of it I'm being held responsible huh interesting so meaning that like there's like a video feed and it's got like the raccoon eyes around each portion like it's blacked out kind of essentially I think like similar if you watch um like Apple's 180° experiences like when you look to the side it like goes black oh right right okay it's almost like that but you see both eyes with the the black around it's more like the the IMAX or sorry uh like well we call it Omnimax but like the if you went to the Science

1:04:21Center when you were a kid and they played it on the big dome it's like it's wrap around but not behind you interesting okay yeah so I think like if anyone wants to jump on a an opportunity so you're not saying this is an example of like you made this app that it's kind of worked out you're more like uh I wish somebody else would make this so that people would stop sending me negative reviews is that what you're saying that's leave me right there yeah I think it was one of those things where you like naively jump into something thinking oh just whip this thing up and then you don't

1:04:55realize that you've accidentally like stepped into like a massive industry that people have strong opinions about and you're like I mean you did you made something that there's demand for but you didn't necessarily uh you don't have the time to satiate that demand I guess is what you're saying yeah or I guess the the Deep knowledge of like one the different video formats that exist yeah interesting CU yeah that's that's the tricky thing like even for Juno people were like add like 360 or 180 degree video and I'm like I had like cursory knowledge that I'm pretty sure there's like competing almost like formats is the right word but like different

1:05:27capability ways to capture that video and I'm like I don't even know if you managed to get the video from YouTube how you would know like how best to represent it like yeah if there's a way from the teex tellw from what you receive if it's like two eyes or like one video stretched or like I know some of them it's like if you open like the mp4 file it's like a it's like a wide video with a tall video on top of it almost or something it's it's all very wacky shoulders still like bopping yeah yeah I don't know what's going I think I my

1:06:01guess is that what's going on is this microphone cuz it's over on this side well oh the vision I can't get my yeah it's on this side over here you have to hold your hand way out in front of you to get to hand the show up um I'm guessing it's it's something about the microphone is messing with its detection of my shoulder and it thinks I'm doing something I'm not so almost like you're like trying to close window without like sne sneakily doing something over to the side it's taking you like an hour to get it down yeah um all right so I'm going to try and uh Land This Plane here

1:06:34because this is going to already going to be very interesting edit assuming that we have enough actually like it's actually still recording uh it looks like it is um so I I think I want to wrap this up more or less with like your general feelings thoughts on the future of this as like a platform for Developers um so Devon I'll start with you but like I just kind of want to know like I know you're excited about it but what is it that you now that it's out what is it that you're thinking this is going to kind of turn into do you see it growing

1:07:07into a vibrant platform do you think it'll be Niche more like Apple TV or Apple watch like where do you see things going um yeah I mean it's pretty hard to know this is like so many people had like so many hot takes of like whether it's an iPhone moment or like a Mac moment or whatever I think like for me it feels like there's definitely a timeline where this at some point replaces the mac and kind of anything where you might like sit down and do kind of like some focused work or like at least like um independent work like it's definitely not a experience at

1:07:40the moment and I think it could be a long long time before that becomes really natural but anytime like we you sit down and like use a computer for something or like maybe even your TV I could see this replacing that um in the not too distant future like for me since I got it um I got my nie today like last night I just sat down and used it while I was using my computer I used the giant mirror display um and sat on top of the mountain and that was like that's already like an amazing experience on its own and so I think anything that you

1:08:09can add into that environment um like apps and things that you could build um be really cool what about you Christian I think yeah that's that's pretty hard to follow up like it's It's tricky because it's like I I think I partially bought it with the hopes of finding it out myself like where I see this going and it's it's I feel like it's um I I haven't quite fully formulated that opinion yet yeah we're like three days in right like a day and a half for Deon we need a fully formed opinion right now go yeah I mean I'm really trying to do is get an

1:08:41audio like locked in Amber audio hot take from you that I can hold over your head for the next 20 years yeah you kind of lose if you're too optimistic or too pessimistic it's this could definitely be something no I think it's um I I I really like it I think it's just really cool and I think that's part of the reason I want to develop for it so bad is that I was like even if me and seven other people are the only people who buy this um it's just really cool to see such a different paradigm shift in programming and development and like building stuff um

1:09:15and I find that really exciting whether or not it goes anywhere um like that really feels like anyone's guess like the bulkiness of it is obviously like a big entry um and I think just even if like it was the most even if like the technology from 20 years in the future existed in this headset right now um as it exists physically I think it would still be a big barrier for a lot of people to be like put on this you know helmet basically um but as far as development goes like I think there could be some really cool things the other thing I'd say is that it feels

1:09:47tricky and so far as there's um with an iPhone like especially in like 2008 when the App Store launched like the I feel like it was maybe I'm thinking with rose tinted glasses but it felt easier to program on in so far as like it was a 320 by 480 window you placed rectangles on it and as long as those rectangles had some semblance of beauty you were like Off to the Races kind of and with this there's like if you want to do something like really really cool there's a certain amount of like 3D like math and like mhm um knowledge and physics and like math and like almost

1:10:18game development level knowledge you need that is definitely um a little bit more um has heavier requirements I guess for lack of a better term but it also means like the ceiling's higher for what you can do so it's I guess kind of yeah it's a lot of posturing to say I don't really know but I think it could be something I think that's I like that that comparison though because similar to the Mac it's like like to make a like great Mac app in a lot of people's meaning of that it's like you we're talking like Final Cut Pro or these like big complicated ated math heavy usually creation type

1:10:57apps but the thing with the mac and I think what's been sort of brought back more with Catalyst but I think it was there in the olden days too is like if it's a vibrant platform there's space for your one-off Indies to make all these cool little utilities and that that's the thing that's interesting about this compared to like the quest or some of these others because 3D development has existed but I think the reason we're excited about it is it's this is approachable because it's it's got Swift UI it's got UI kit it's got like uh it's doing a lot of the hard stuff for you

1:11:35we're not doing that much complicated game 3D development yet we're still making something that takes advantage of the spatial nature of the platform until you go into immersive mode and then it's like suddenly gets a little mad it's yes right but that's the thing it's kind of like there's tears that work their way out right for sure yeah I think as well like I've seen a lot of um I think points of view of uh cuz like when everyone started sort of I guess posting what they've been working on a lot of people's apps were um like coming from iPad and so that I guess mostly 2D and there was I saw a few

1:12:12people that sort of thought that that was disappointing and like I want more like 3D stuff and like none of this iPad stuff which I I think is fair in some regards but I feel like just because we can now represent 3D objects on this platform doesn't mean everything should be 3D like the window in itself is actually 3D because it exists within your room and so there's utility to that already I guess like with the Tim is right like it's just a window I'm not doing anything special with that but there's utility inherent in it in the way that it exists in the room and so I

1:12:42don't think that there needs to be a push that like all of a sudden all of our buttons need to be these big like 3D objects CU I think I think there should be a mix and it's awesome that we have a platform now where you can actually mix those things in different apps and not be limited to one but I I don't think I'd want to see a big shift to where like everything is now three-dimensional that makes sense yeah that would be a little more mentally taxing and and I think what with that disappointment too like what a lot of maybe people who aren't developers like

1:13:09us don't realize that so much of the like oh I did want 3D stuff and it's like that stuff is like trickier in the tools we had prior to the Vision Pro launching like the simulator is like just not even out of necessarily any um lack of effort by but just like having a 2d window on your Mac completely emulate like a 3D development environment where you're placing like cues objects everywhere yeah like it it's really hard to do so I think if anything it's like now that it's out you know and more people's hands outside of just the lucky few who got developer kits like now

1:13:40might be the chance we start to see people actually developing like the cool 3D applications so maybe just wait a little bit be patient yeah yeah we're just we're just on like not even week one really to your to your I guess to answer my own question then at the beginning like future of the platform whatever like I think I'm sort of similar to you Christian in the sense that like it's just cool like it's fun like the thing I so I was a lot more bearish kind of on it as a platform like is this really going to be a thing that takes off is bear the

1:14:16good one or the bad bear is the bad so the way you remember it is uh the statue of the bear fighting the bull the bull is like bringing his horns up statue of a bear fighting a bull yeah in Wall Street what came first the phrase or the statue I think the statue is first I could be wrong or maybe it was just like a common image of I think the statue was there first but yeah there I've seen I've seen the bull so there's a I think there's a bear in a bull or is it just the bull I thought it was just a I feel

1:14:46like I'd remember a bear fighting something well either way the mental image I think is that it's a bear fighting a ball maybe it's just a bull because it's like it's the positive version Googled it and it's like a I can see why you would think it's a bull facing a little girl um and I can see it looks like it's like a little girl standing like with her hands on her hips like standing up to the bulll and I can see how you mistake a little girl for an adult grizzly bear um yeah they're pretty much the same okay but the idea think is that

1:15:18the bull is attacking up with his horns and the bear is coming down on the and you are and you are a bear which is I was more bearish I was I was more negative see this is why it's a good phrase because it requires so much mental load to talk to stock Brokers only or something right I think yeah you're right you're right anyway I I was and maybe am more at before all this I actually wrote like a blog post that I didn't talk about cuz I I wasn't necessarily proud of it but I just wanted to write up like my thoughts before I went into the uh into the lab

1:15:57because I knew after that I couldn't say anything cuz I just wanted like a note like an archive of what I thought before trying it yeah exactly and like my feelings are somewhat similar which is like it's it's a platform that's difficulty to use is very high because you're putting something on your head true and I I don't see a version of the like glasses like true glasses happening in a very long time just from a technology standpoint so like iterations on this you know much better version of this but still iterations of a VR thing is kind of what I'm imagining and it's like I

1:16:34have a hard time seeing that take off as a like super commonly used thing because there's so much load in putting it on it's closer to a Mac Pro than an iPhone in terms of like like an iPhone like an Apple Watch doesn't have to be nearly as high util because it's so easy to use it's just on your wrist and then a phone is like one step up from that your MacBook Air is one step up from that and then like a desktop computer it has to have a whole bunch of utility because it's way harder to use you have to sit at a desk blah

1:17:07blah blah this to me feels like it's closer to the Mac Pro end of things than the Apple watch end because of the difficulty of this because it's like a pain to put on but I will say like so you're you'd be pretty piggish on like an apple jumpsuit then I don't even I don't know what this means uh sure maybe I guess I don't know but anyway so like uh the it the thing that it has to overcome is is you putting it on keeping it charged and being this thing that you regularly put on your head and it has to provide enough utility to make that worth it I

1:17:50will say in this first weekend of having it um maybe just because it's new but I found it's it actually reminds me weirdly of the iPad where I like using it and I want to keep using it and then I just kind of like sit in there like what am I doing in here like it's especially because it's so hard to type it's like it's nice for FaceTime I FaceTime with a bunch of people and I actually really like that experience uh it's nice for the like mac mirroring personally I I don't know if it's just my eyes but like I find it a little bit harder to

1:18:27use compared to my Mac laptop even even though the screen's way bigger um but it is kind of nice especially when sitting on the couch or something like that but in terms of like sitting here making it part of my regular workflow it's kind of like weird I I haven't found something where I'm like this is so much better not cooler but better there's lots of things that are cooler but that utility wears off and and so I'm just not sure but it's but the thing that's like the iPad is interesting because if it is that compelling and fun to use people will like force workflows into it which

1:19:04help keep it kind of alive and vibrant and then maybe the technology kind of catches up in terms of comfort and all of that so I'm more excited about it than I was initially that's good okay but it's hard you know in terms of like predicting will this be a major platform like the iPhone's a bad example I think the Mac is a more appropriate example just because it took the Mac a decade or so to get to like really mainstream Mass market right it wasn't like it was a big deal when it first came out but it wasn't uh it didn't keep the company afloat for a very long time right right

1:19:43um so I don't know I don't know but it also didn't have the marketing and just platform connecting oomph that Apple has now and yeah much less of a statement piece like you see somebody in one of these and it's kind of like holy crap yeah that's hard to ignore um right like for yeah For Better or Worse um what are your kids like when you wear it are they kind of like oh Dad's doing his thing yeah I E today what's that uh like I had this moment yesterday cuz I I um came home with it opened it and my son was asleep in in Bard while I was using it

1:20:18um and I was kind of planning of like not really letting them them like see it for a bit just cuz it's a bit odd and also didn't want them to like break it um but I was just sort of standing in the lounge I can't what I was doing and then he came in from his nap and just kind of stared at me and I stared back at him with my giant robot face and I could see like this look of Terror you can see [Laughter] the is he okay now I I think well he hasn't talked to fact I haven't seen him no mine mine have tried it like they had

1:20:56and they we had a quest or have a quest too and they've tried that before too and it felt similar to that where we're like everybody's trying it on and we're airplane to the TV and it's like a fun but that doesn't feel like the future of computing that's like it's a fun uh amusement park ride or whatever right right um but like I will say it does feel like you can just be in a space with somebody and talk to them it's not horrible for that um but it's still it's still weird I I'll say the one that really surprised me is my dog makes eye contact with me

1:21:30still like normal interesting like I I I wasn't sure what to expect there but he just looks right at my eyes I don't know how much of dogs are looking at your eyes or they're like evolutionarily like they know to look at people's faces you know what I mean like they're actually looking for your fangs or something um but he just looks right at me just like normal and I talk to him like he hasn't reacted weird at all to it I think the the glass area in the front being so different from the quest though that that like it must help there like I remember when I put the quest on and my

1:21:59girlfriend said something to me and I and I turned to her and like because I had the pass to run and I just immediately like rubber neck to her and answered her question she like did not like that because I think she assumed I was in like a world separate from hers and that I was completely cognizant of um but where this I think it's a little bit more obvious that you're you're aware of the your surroundings even just the Black versus the white cuz the white especially if you're like white complected skin it almost is like you're faceless like in a weird blindfold on or

1:22:26something yeah yeah whereas the black almost is like goggles like right right yeah yeah there's some level of sunglasses where you can see through them still yeah yeah um for sure yeah all right well um I will wrap this up and hopefully be able to edit this in the next three or four months we'll see how recoverable this is but this was like super fun it's always fun to just hang out with you guys anyway so yeah no this is awesome apprciate you sitting here debugging FaceTime with me for hours yeah so uh Devin where can people find you and all of your apps uh yeah I'm on all all of the

1:23:07current social platforms I think there might be a new one tomorrow what's your Noster okay I'm not on all of them I take it back I'm on I'm on X and madon uh my is just me div um and you can find um my app as the default Timer app on Vision Pro that's Crouton uh the cooking app or rly r o l l i for the 360 app which I'll say if you have a 360 camera uh it is actually really fun uh to to try those out and kind of like float around in a space if you've captured those before yeah I'm definitely going to

1:23:50check it out um I just camera that can do it yeah yeah and then Kristen uh where can people find find you and Apollo yeah it's like yeah your local Cemetery um you can find me um I'm Christian SE like pretty much yeah I'm unfortunately still on Twitter I'm on Mastadon as well um uh I think I'm on threads Blue Sky probably the um yeah just SP everywhere all right cool well thank you both again uh chance I'll see you see you some other time yeah how do I wrap the show up everything is weird yeah no it's we'll see you when we see you thanks for listening if you'd like

1:24:37to discuss the show you can find me on Twitter maedon threads or whatever the social media app of the day is at Charlie M chapman. me we'd really appreciate a rating or review on your podcast app of choice and you can find show notes and more at launched FM [Music] .c