$30M by Age 19 — And Where You Should Build Today

0:00the government has pulled away the ability for the average people to make a lot of kind different kinds of investments the sec basically blocks all kinds of different uh uh opportunities because they you know they scrutinize everything right so that's why we have the world we live in where institutional money like we see money is access to all these tech companies grows them to tens of billions of dollars of value only then give put them out on the ipo because it's just not worth for these companies to go public anymore [Music] what's up how you doing well you know it took me 20 minutes to log into this because technology decided

0:45that it just didn't want to work so i'm good coming in hot uh got my got my summer shirt on here the the tied eye so i'm ready to roll for uh for some warm weather what's uh what's on your mind today what do you want to talk about oh man uh i had a bunch of stuff on my list and we've got a really cool guest coming in to jam on some stuff so i would suggest we just dive right into it there was a bunch of interesting stuff that happened um recently much of which i think is sort of evergreen so i'd love to uh love

1:20to jam on some of it um did you first thing on my list did you see this um this whole thing that happened with ross albrecht the uh the silk road guy and this like bitcoin finding i did so for people that don't know who this is ross albrecht um i don't know if i'm pronouncing that right all bridged um he was the founder of silk road um which was for lack of a better way to put it like amazon for illegal stuff um you know it was founded in what 2011 uh it was like you would use the tor like anonymous browser so you could use it anonymously

2:00and it was founded with like really kind of libertarian ideals and it was basically the first use case of bitcoin um like in the very early days and it's part of the reason why like bitcoin got a reputation as being a currency for like scammers and fraudsters and you know uh illegal kind of grifters because it was basically being used on silk road to purchase all variety of things the vast majority i think of silk road maybe you saw it way back in the day was like kind of harmless drugs like i think a lot of people were buying weed that i knew like on silk road and other like

2:34party drugs but then you know there was it's the internet so there was like dark parts of silk road that were people buying you know all sorts of things guns you know more harmful drugs etc um but you know ross albrecht was the founder of it he was like the jeff bezos of this silk road thing there was a huge bust in 2013 when they found it um and he basically got charged with all variety of crimes despite the fact that it was a platform that he was running right like it kind of the whole case uh basically said that he was um selling these things rather

3:09than like operating the platform and he got sentenced to life without parole and it's like this very very controversial case yeah so i remember going on the silk road and just testing it out you know as a good product person i gotta gotta test everything out one of the things i mean there was a bunch of harmless stuff but there was also some crazy things on the silk road so there was like i remember like a whole guide around how to break into an atm machine so that you could buy like you could buy the god it was basically like this guy he was like i've broken into

3:47uh many many atm machines and i'm like the guy you know and if you want to be like me all you have to do for the you know low price of one bitcoin uh you can you can do this too if you're anything like me your portfolio is a mix of the usual suspects stocks bonds and mutual funds maybe you've even dabbled in some alternative assets like crypto but those investments can be incredibly unpredictable you know what typically isn't unpredictable apartment buildings rental homes industrial facilities places we go every day to work eat and live that's all private real estate and thanks to its historical stability as

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5:12room again that's f-u-n-d-r-i-s-e dot com slash room to get started today today i am so excited to talk about riverside riverside is the leading platform for studio quality remote podcasts and video recordings from anywhere we absolutely love it at where it happens and you're going to love it too greg what have you enjoyed most about riverside what's amazing about riverside is that when you're recording a remote video podcast or remote interview the recording quality is independent of wi-fi stability it basically records locally which is a huge advantage in order to ensure a reliable and uncompressed content outcome the way i think about it it's basically like a studio inside your browser and

5:59it's not just us who uses it it's 70 000 plus people ranging from guy razz garyvee and the new york times it's an amazing experience super easy and intuitive to use you don't need a whole team on the back end to manage it to get it up onto all of the podcasting platforms it is just a great overall experience truly a podcast studio in your pocket that you can use from anywhere we absolutely love it and you're going to as well so to check out riverside go to riverside.fm and use code happens for 15 off a membership plan again that's riverside.fm and use code happens for 15

6:41off at checkout yeah it's like it's um i mean it's funny because like it's like the illegal alternative to like gumroad like that same guy sells that book on gumroad as like an e-book how to break into atm machines but uh you know was doing it there um the crazy thing about the case and there's an amazing book on it if anyone hasn't read it called um american kingpin which i don't know if they've done it yet but it would be an incredible movie because the story of the rise of the silk road and what he was like going through the lengths to try to not get caught because basically

7:14like the acceleration of it was like any insane tech company story but it was not venture backed it was just like pure product market fit insanity and the growth and the amount of bitcoin that was flowing through the ecosystem and the amount of money he was making like he was operating under the pseudonymous name dread pirate roberts which was the fictional character from the princess bride um and it was just like i think it astounded him and he probably got completely off guard by it but it was like insane product market fit and product-led growth story um and then basically you know he gets taken down in this bust and it becomes

7:51uh you know as part of it right they like kind of indicted him on a bunch of different things one of the things he got indicted for was like six or seven um murders that he allegedly ordered and paid for um none of which were actually carried out but that it was alleged that he um had kind of um solicited murder for hire and he didn't get charged with it ultimately and he didn't get tried for it like they didn't convict him of those things and so his sentencing has been a massive dispute especially for libertarians who argue that like he was running a platform if people were doing illegal

8:24things on it not really his fault he should be kind of absolved of that and for people who are like look you can you know say that he did those things but if you didn't get convicted of those things or charged with those things the murders how is he sentenced to life without the possibility of parole for what amounts to like a bunch of um you know kind of like drug trafficking charges effectively so there's this massive crusade that has continued and that a lot of like big tech illuminati type figures are behind to try to free ross um basically the reason it's back in the news which

8:59is what i was referencing before is because part of his whole deal was that he had to pay like 193 million dollars of restitution to the us government for like basically they were charging him like a fine for every single transaction that went through the silk road over the years that he operated it and so he owed 193 million dollars so even if he gets released and somehow like the crusade works and he gets out he was going to be 193 million dollars in debt to the us government basically never a free man all of his wages would be garnished etc um now that has changed because the u.s

9:31government has like basically secretly signed a deal with him that this one billion dollar uh bounty that they have found from a hack of the silk road they are crediting towards his debts to the us government and so he has now effectively paid back the debts to the us government of 193 million dollars it's uh it's unbelievable uh like i remember reading that and i was like this guy man this guy i mean it's like a completely insane story the fact that it's not a movie yet actually like it's going to be an incredible whoever makes it it's going to be an incredible movie and i think

10:07part of it is like people have wanted the story to finish because there's some i think there's like a broad case to be made that um that he will get out at some point um maybe then they will try to charge him with you know the alleged murders and bring him up on that which is a totally separate thing but the whole story is like completely remarkable in the book if no one has read it um the book is incredible american kingpin is what it's called we'll throw it in the show notes so anyway i wanted to start off with that because i think it's a fascinating story

10:37it's also ties to like crypto bitcoin um and uh in the early days of actual use cases of all of this let me let me shift gears a little bit with something that's on my mind hit me um so [Music] last week was miami tech week um i live in miami so basically it's this new for those who don't know it's like this new uh holiday tech holiday that delian from founders fund who's a vc basically a year and a half ago i think he he created this and it was like a small event last year this year like it was it was huge like every major fund was was

11:19throwing events um it felt very much like a mini south by southwest and what i wanted to talk about and what's been on my mind is a tweet that i saw from a buddy of mine fur khan who said your product doesn't get built at conferences and growth doesn't happen at networking events if you're a founder i highly suggest skipping these events the real work happens at a keyboard and i was reflecting on that a bit because i spend so much like energy just like personal energy talking to people like ubering here ubering there going to this dinner doing this doing that and i definitely agree with him that like i

12:06think that for if you're a founder now i'm not saying like if you know if you're a vp sales if you're a director of biz dev if you're like you know chief marketing officer like yes like maybe go to those events but if you're a founder the most i think the most efficient way to spend your time is behind the keyboard what do you think um i go both ways on this right i think it's tough because my general perspective is like i one side of me says that these are the type of things where you end up getting lucky like you go to something like this there's 10 000

12:42people in miami you know half of whom are like very smart interested might be interested in similar things to you you go to these events you mingle new ideas strike insight strikes you meet someone that you wouldn't have otherwise met good things happen and if it's like two three days you cannot build for a couple days like what did you do last weekend you took a day off maybe whatever so that's like one side of me the other side of me says yeah like you know in the early days of something you have to put your damn head down because otherwise um you know you're just not gonna make that early traction

13:14in order to get something done i guess my general take kind of putting it all into a blender is like what type of founder are you because i think there are founders who they're not the builder right like they're the salesman and to use the naval thing which is one of my favorite general frameworks around this you either need to learn how to build or you need to learn how to sell and someone that can do both is completely unstoppable and there's like probably a handful of people who can do both at an elite level like a elon musk or like a steve jobs or whatever those are like insanely elite

13:43individuals that can build and sell but for the most part people can either do one or the other and so if you're like in the build camp if you're an engineer and you're a builder yeah i agree like you probably should put your head down and be behind the keyboard but if you're a sell type and what you're really exceptional at is selling going to one of these events and like selling the dream of your idea that can be the difference between like having keith reboy you know founders fund meet you see you you know the new investor comes on like a new employee that could be

14:13your 10x engineer that you happen to meet there um like if you're out there selling in that environment maybe that's what's actually the best use of your time not sitting behind a keyboard yeah my take on it and you'll get this because i mean we'll both get this we both spent a lot of time on twitter and and blogging and stuff like that my thinking is if i could spend 72 hours behind a keyboard typing an amazing like blog post or email newsletter or epic twitter thread the the like if that goes viral and millions of people see that the it's just way more efficient use of time

14:51now i still love going to these events and i love hanging out with like i got this like i treated it as like a vacation you know i mean like i got to i ran into so many amazing friends and it was really fun and and i did hit you know play the slot machine a little bit and i did meet some really cool people um which could be like lifelong friendships which is awesome and good for my business but i still think if i'm looking at it just from an efficiency standpoint um heads down for me is the way to go i think you're probably right i mean i

15:23think um and it depends what stage you're at right like you and i aren't in the trenches building something like a product today and so a big part of your job like what you're doing and you know what i'm doing too is being out and so it is like that's probably the most efficient use of our time relative to a builder who's kind of like in the trenches today and they they probably should spend that time doing um you know doing building or creative work or something that's going to reach you know have like a much more scalable reach overall so i don't know i go both ways

15:53on it uh but i do think it's a really interesting discussion point i loved i saw the like back and forth on twitter of different people arguing over whether founders should go to these type of events um and i thought it was interesting but like just to say it the web3 space in general i think has skewed too far to the cell and not enough to the build so i think it's like a good call to arms in general to like throw a shot across the bow to the general industry of like you know there's so many of these companies that are raising absurd prices off of no product and it's because

16:24they're incredible salesmen and there's like this unbelievable heat around the market um and i think it needs to come back into some level of balance we got val in the waiting room so should we bring uh what is up what's going on guys hey what's going on man all good good to have you yeah man we got the two legends over here three legends man i appreciate you joining you're uh you're crushing it we're excited to have you and uh excited to hear more about your story and um and dive into some hopefully cool ideas yeah absolutely man can you just give us the like one minute version of your background

17:03and it doesn't actually have to be one minute but just so like all of our listeners understand why you are um so legit don't give us the humble version either like um i want the real version of some of the that you've done uh so we're live we're live man all right man you're going straight to the point here um well we film we've already been on for like 20 minutes before you uh so we uh we're all like warmed up and ready to roll all right man well i don't even get to see your hair today that's not that's not right you're here for the hair and you don't

17:38even get to see it i'll just see over here today oh yeah it looks good but but my greg greg got like starting to get that going on so i don't know man you guys got a nice competition on that front going um yeah man listen i built um i'm a i'm an immigrant came to this country when i was like 11. um and i got my computer only like at 16 years old by that point i already knew everything about computers um and i was just so hungry launched the company uh i just started like doing some stuff and it just kind of took off

18:13came across i mean there was like a bunch of steps but i built uh at like 19 i started a company that built uh did google advertising and like i essentially crushed it like just huge arbitrage there all by myself out of my parents basement and then like i lived in a suburbia just like for tax purposes and people thought i was a drug dealer in the neighborhood uh this is one of my favorite stories about you by the way is just like val basically became a whale of like google ad advertising business like you were like the second biggest buyer of adwords or something from your parent's basement

18:52yeah basically it was like you and like ebay like you're doing like affiliate like what were you doing yeah i was doing a lot of affiliate stuff um i had like 800 different advertisers that i was marketing um you know i was an affiliate marketer but i had a lot of like like very premium deals a lot of like nice brands uh so i was definitely like on the premium side of affiliate marketing if you could you know so like my clients were like new york times and rhapsody and ebay themselves and um so it was like i did all the good stuff and you know i

19:24didn't really do colon cleansers and aside berry stuff you know and all those uh interesting things that were out what your what year was this in um so i started around right after like the dot-com bubble collapse okay so so it wasn't actually google i started with i started back back in the days when we used to be overturned which became goto.com and then was acquired by yahoo which became yahoo search this was so i was big on yahoo first this was an epic so no one talks about this but from 2000 to 2006 was the heyday of affiliate marketing and for those who don't know what affiliate

20:04marketing is is it's basically when a brand instead of uh you know going out and doing their own advertising they say hey sahel we'll give you five dollars for every install or lead or or sale that we that you generate and they give you a special sahel code when you when people think of affiliate marketing today they actually think of it as like influencer marketing what was happening from 2000 to 2006 is there were people like you val and i i actually was also involved in in some of this um where we would do arbitrage so we would actually you would go let's just say and do a

20:43deal with eharmony.com eharmony.com would pay you five dollars for every lead and you would go and because at the time these big brands were terrible at user acquisition it was completely brand new these people and they call them super affiliates these super affiliates were uh better at marketing than some of these big brands i mean it's completely basically so you were basically um but you didn't know how to do this it's not like you like went to school for this or something you were basically just kind of like hustling in the early days you were like oh yeah i can do it for this price and

21:23you'd go you know learn how to do it scale it up and then once you had done it well you were like oh i can scale this up do it with more money do it with more money bigger brands whatever yeah i mean listen i had a like little playstation website and um and uh it started making like 5 000 bucks a month i was in high school which is a lot of money in the 90s um and uh right away.com bubble burst and like i went from making five thousand a month to like 500 a month if that actually that was revenue so i was probably losing it after all

21:55the web hosting costs and all that so i started like scrambling to figure out how to sell advertising so i started selling advertising on my own then i realized that like wow i'm actually pretty good like i need more inventory so i start selling advertising on other people's websites and then i start looking for more ways to like scale that up so that's kind of how i came across affiliate marketing because i just grabbed a few like deals from half.com at the time because they would have video games um the video games was a big category there so i was like wow this is actually kind of

22:23converting and that led to me testing it on search and i was and then just actually i lost money like i lost 5 000 bucks at 6 000 bucks i think actually the first night i turned it on on goto.com there were no budget caps at the time i go to sleep i wake up i'm negative six thousand dollars and like i only had a thousand dollars in in uh leads so i lost like five g's that that one night right i was like holy cow i think most people will actually say oh my god i'm never doing this again like the stupidest thing ever and i just

22:55something just i mean like on the inside i just had that gut feeling wait i made that i got that i brought in a thousand dollars right like i'm too sometimes it's uh like i'm an optimist right so i look at it's like wow i brought in a thousand dollars i didn't think of it like hey i lost six like i lost five thousand right so like i was able to take that thousand bucks uh and then see like just dive into that thousand dollars that um that we were able to get like i was able to generate and uh turn that into a gold mine i mean that that that

23:25just what did you end up making over those few years like before you know the market now it's funny right like this market has become hyper efficient now um or at least much more efficient because of how much i mean you were you were sort of like a pioneer right like you were early days so there was massive spreads like you could um you know you could make a ton of money off of doing this now there's like uh so much money across all of this stuff that has flown in and so it's made the market more efficient but like just to give people a sense of the scope you

23:54were 19 years old when you started this and built this um out of the basement like what did you end up making off this from a profit standpoint over 30 million out of your out of your parents basement yeah that's so absurd i i remember reading your um you wrote a piece about it which i remember reading i don't know six months ago or something like that that just said that like at your uh at your largest you were google's second largest advertiser as well like operating operating out of your parents basement which is just like that's one of my favorite things ever yeah the funny thing is i only found out

24:32because somebody told me from the inside and then um when google had like all these class action lawsuits um and you start i realized how big of a percentage i was of that class action i didn't file it's like somebody always else did all the work um and uh my numbers were pretty big and like that and on that so i was like wow it's uh i didn't realize how big of a chunk of the revenue i was at one point and this is like probably right around right before their ipo uh so they were like already big but not that big yet yeah yeah and you're right listen man the

25:06the markets are becoming way more efficient the way i look at it is the windows of opportunities are starting to get shorter and shorter so like you're talking about 2000 2006 whether it's affiliate market or really search like i look at it the more on the search side right that's that was i had like a six nice six year window but after that the you know like display advertising also had a decent uh window but everything after that like facebook i mean it probably got closed in two years right instagram one year like tick-tock it's probably got burned out like within a year right and if you could catch that

25:39um lightning bolt right in the in in that short opportunity window window opportunity um you know and you could build up on that that's that's uh that's the that's the magic because you know there are plenty of successful people still on tick tock right you know but a lot of them kind of caught that caught that wave early on when it was a an open opportunity yeah that's really profound because i i think what you're saying is the half-life of marketing channels are getting shorter and shorter especially with all these tools like uh now like when you create a facebook ad uh it's out in the open uh your competitors

26:17can go and check your facebook ad and and vice versa you can go and check their facebook ads so i think um i remember well i sound like an old person but i remember when you can buy a facebook ad for a nickel back in my day you you literally when the facebook ad platform came out it was a nickel for a click yeah yes they were charging five cents like for comments like going to the movies for our parents like i i don't know the average right now but it's you know 50 cents to a dollar 50. um so the facebook ad platform comes out with all this

26:52inventory it's five cents and we you know we looked at it and i was also young at the time this is like what year was that val like 2006 maybe 2007 when they did their ad platform something like that facebook yeah well they were wait they were later than that it hadn't been later than that because it would have been i was like out of high school yeah it must be like 2011 or something i don't know let's see i don't and does it work isn't it 2000 november 2007. they just put it out and then people bid on it yeah so there was

27:26they put it out people bid on it's 2007. um i'm uh how old am i at this time i'm 18 years old 17 or 18 years old um and what we did was did deals with the zyngas of the world who were building facebook games who needed installs so they would pay us three dollars and fifty cents for all these social game companies for every installs and we were buying we were buying clicks for five cents um so what we needed hey man that is like so you were doing you were a an install super affiliate yeah so we like our our niche like we understood community

28:07and social so when all these uh social networks started implementing ad platforms we were really good at creating content around it so then we're just like oh hey let's just go do a deal with um and i don't speak about this publicly very much by the way sahel i see your face you're like what i don't even know you um but like the beauty about affiliate marketing is that if you build if you get this to work and it costs you 50 cents and you get a dollar fifty out you you wanna you know instead of putting a thousand dollars a day you wanna put ten thousand dollars a day or

28:43a hundred thousand dollars a day or a million dollars a day and it becomes the world's greatest money vending machine yeah it's so easy to scale once you got that formula going yeah i just remember seeing i think it was toby recently that like at shopify said like you know it's so interesting to your point on like the half-life of these opportunities shrinking over time it's sort of broadly by the way like the half-life of these marketing channel opportunities has definitely shrunk the half-life of like every opportunity i feel like has shrunk with the rise of technology like if you're not if you have an idea and it

29:17looks like an interesting opportunity you have to go get it fast because if you don't there's someone else that's going to go capitalize on it it's going to get squeezed out but like way more people now like um that have to have interest in in these cat in these spaces yeah there's more people with the internet right just there's more people with the internet like it's just it's really hard right you're competing not just against like the nerds you know with computers like it might have been 20 30 years ago now it's like everyone has a computer with their phone not to mention that like the entire subcontinent of india

29:48has come online and is all technology focused so there's just like there's massive massive um opportunities still but they go away fast and so you have to like be a type of person like you guys both are clearly to go and capitalize on these things yeah you know that said there's still a lot of fragmentation out there is that if you have that skill to do arbitrage or you actually like doing it or you have a skill at any particular topic or category you could still do plenty of arbitrage you just have to get a little more fragmented and figure out how to scale that fragmentation which is like one

30:24like the company that i'm building now is a lot a lot to do with that there's it's a lot more involved but uh you know but the second business that i scaled up right after that was also just just a different set of um just different set of arbitrage uh which is uh i got into the whole music category and that was that was actually a bigger business than than the first one i was like the first year i generated over 10 million in net profit geez and and uh and i had it was always it started out with just me but it ended up being like

30:54seven people um and uh we had like a monopoly on distribution of premium content specifically started with like ringtones so have you ever seen like a music site and said like send this ringtone to your to your to your cell um like back in the years that that was me um although we had like a half a billion people uh we were in front of every month and so it was pretty you know so there's a once you get like a feeling for for those inefficiencies you could take advantage of them across many categories like greg like i never got involved on the installs game i know

31:32it was cute and it was huge i never but i never got on it um but uh yeah there's like so many different ways you could uh to make that work well there's two ways there's two ways of like if you're listening to this and you're like okay how can i get involved in something like this well one way is you find a new platform shift so like search gets really big and ads come out or tick tock gets really big and their ads come out you find a new platform and you create a product or partner with someone with a product on that new platform

32:02and the second way is you create a new you're just really good at content so you created a new format on that platform so as an example um and some might and i'm not i don't know about you but i'm not creative like sahil is obviously creative like yes somehow you're like a weird creature where you sounds like you're i feel like you're creative yet you're good with numbers right i'm not creative i've never been called a weird creature before but i will take that hey man that's what makes it uh makes you tick like i said i can't i can't i'm not creative at all so i i cannot put on put

32:38out content on tick tock or anything like that so yeah but people figured out different concepts that uh work on instagram stories or tic toc what do you see today when you look at the at the landscape as some of the interesting opportunities in any category broadly like you're saying you know you need to be able to kind of identify what are some of those opportunities that might exist like if you were looking out and you were i know you're building something else right now if you were looking out like what do you think are some of the spaces that our listeners should be looking at and

33:09thinking about building in i i still think that a lot of the mom and pops um and mom and pops could be different sizes right like you could have mom and pop score 300 000 revenue you could have stores that do two five million you have car dealerships that do five ten million right so all kinds of ranges of mom and pops but i think they're still very much behind in many many categories and if you could bring in value right connect them make them relevant on whatever platform whether it's tic tac or facebook or instagram uh whatever it is make them relevant on those categories and those

33:45uh platforms uh there's absolutely an arbitrage there because they're willing to spend money to to catch up and because they haven't caught up um so i do that for the like the jewelry industry i mean what i've done is way more advanced because like i'm also produ like vertically integrated the uh the jewelry manufacturing process and doing all the data market data and marketing for them so it's way more like advanced uh but if i was um you know if i had smaller investment if i could make a smaller investment and or even if as a as a side hustle i mean that's what i would do i would just go out there and

34:24start helping small fragmented mom and pops and you know what i always like historically i've always started with arbitrage first because once you figure out that there's an arbitrage in something you could build and scale around that right so um so i think it's very important and you could once you do that once you figure out that magic formula that works you then it's up to you whether you want to take vc money or if you're like maybe not everybody's good at raising money right nobody not everybody has those connections as well yeah there's like a massive opportunity broadly you know if you think of it as like an agency

34:59business model um you know not raising money like if you're an individual and you're kind of a hustler and you have a builder mentality around these things um i mean you could probably go like in your town and go to the like small you know restaurants shops etc in the center of your town or you know in the local area i bet if you went and talked to them um you know about what they're doing around you know online advertising or online reviews or you know whatever it might be um i bet you could go and like secure a few you know monthly retainer type contracts

35:30to go and deliver them value and you could basically say uh hey it's free the first month i'll prove you know the value of doing this and then we you know agree to some sort of contract going forward and i bet you could spin up like if it's just you too and you're just like paying your living wage i mean you could probably spend up like a 50 000 a month business pretty quickly doing that for like a bunch of local mom and pops on like a you know few thousand dollar a month type retainer deal for all of them today i am so excited to talk about

35:59riverside riverside is the leading platform for studio quality remote podcasts and video recordings from anywhere we absolutely love it at where it happens and you're going to love it too greg what have you enjoyed most about riverside what's amazing about riverside is that when you're recording a remote video podcast or a remote interview the recording quality is independent of wi-fi stability it basically records locally which is a huge advantage in order to ensure a reliable and uncompressed content outcome the way i think about it it's basically like a studio inside your browser and it's not just us who uses it it's 70 000 plus people ranging from guy razz

36:43garyvee and the new york times it's an amazing experience super easy and intuitive to use you don't need a whole team on the back end to manage it to get it up onto all of the podcasting platforms it is just a great overall experience truly a podcast studio in your pocket that you can use from anywhere we absolutely love it and you're going to as well so to check out riverside go to riverside.fm and use code happens for 15 off a membership plan again that's riverside.fm and use code happens for 15 off at checkout if you're anything like me your portfolio is a mix of the usual suspects

37:25stocks bonds and mutual funds maybe you've even dabbled in some alternative assets like crypto but those investments can be incredibly unpredictable you know what typically isn't unpredictable apartment buildings rental homes industrial facilities places we go every day to work eat and live that's all private real estate and thanks to its historical stability as well as its reputation as a reliable income stream these investments could be a valuable addition to your portfolio this is where fundrise comes in fundrise is changing the game when it comes to real estate investing and making this powerful asset class easily available to investors like you and me their easy to use app lets you build a

38:10real estate portfolio tailored to meet your goals it's a great way to benefit from real estate's many perks while adding some much needed diversification to your portfolio so join over 250 000 other investors building a better portfolio with private real estate signing up is easy just head over to fundrise.com room again that's f u n d r i s e dot com slash room to get started today yeah absolutely but you know what i would do is i wouldn't go local like your own local backyard i would pick an industry like one category and then try to try to catch start getting them you know like locally regionally even nationally

38:54like go after that one because then you're gonna be very good at one so when i was when i was thinking about launching my next last um my last company so i actually retired for like three years right and i was too bored i got to like build something myself and i was like no i want to go after something that's not corporate america because that's what i've done my whole life right um i want to do something that that helps the the main street and um so the things i would look i was looking at is like something very huge like huge but fragmented so

39:25pizza shops right and this is before like slice came i don't know like later on slice i was kind of thinking in that realm right i was thinking about all the um bars like all the pubs they have they all have these they have these like beer dispensing mechan uh systems right like why can i take over that distribution of that right and then i own that distribution point like that that was the stuff i was thinking about um just going very after like one category um but that's very fragmented so i love it as a as like a general framework or idea for for starting and and building

40:01something um you guys want to do some uh some business ideas yeah sure let's hit it let's do it um all right well first off i want to do one that's sparked by a thread that you did val um so i was recently on twitter and um greg obviously knows this but val i'm expecting my first um child soon and yeah uh little boy super excited um but you wrote a thread about um basically rather than paying your kids allowance you pay them interest um and it sparked for me a business idea um that i think is kind of interesting but will you just kind of give the general

40:41concept of what you wrote about and then um i'll lay out the idea yeah absolutely so it all started with my uh view again immigrant mentality and how do i instill my kids to look i i they're going to grow up in a different environment that i grew up i was never like super poor or anything like that but i lived in soviet union and like i said i couldn't get a computer for the next first six years in this country so um i mean we had food on our table but i was never like wealthy or well off ain't like that so how do i

41:17instill that into my kids and and you know i realized that resource resourcefulness is very important right so i actually don't give i i purposely um limit the resources i throttle the resources they get right i want them to figure it out how to make how to do a lot with very little right essentially that's what what made me successful i think right at least that's what i think um so the idea was okay i'm not gonna give you an allowance you're not gonna get free money right you're gonna have to figure out how the world works and you know they start getting i noticed they started getting like

41:55little birthday gifts and little holiday gifts and i told them like hey and they start putting it at the piggy bank right they're like little kids like two three years old right they start putting in a little piggy bank right that's the thing cause somebody gave him a pig again piggy bank that's fine um i told him like hey you know that's money sitting there in piggy bank it's doing nothing right you know and uh it's like what if you put it what if you give it to somebody and they're gonna give you back more money you know and it has to be like super basic conversation

42:25and like you kind of get a little more and more detail as they get older but it has to be super basic right that somebody else needs money and could use the money to do something with that right rather than sitting in your piggy bank and it made sense so so what i did what i've done is i created this like little google sheet and and every time they have money they want to put it instead of putting a piggy bank they put it in a kids loan account um and it collects interest so essentially instead of giving them allowances they get interest on their money and i like i

42:58picked an arbitrary number just because it's easy one percent a month which is 12 a year um they're staking their allowance they're staking their allowance exactly to use greg's web 3 analogy i mean the thing that i thought was so interesting about it was it's a topic that i often think about of like we have this complete inability to educate children and young adults on investing money you know like modern principles of all of this and the things that by the way like our parents learned about that stuff are not really applicable today the entire landscape has changed there's so many different opportunities there's all this different stuff so yeah i

43:34thought this was really interesting the way you laid it out it also just made me uh made my eyes light up a little bit around business opportunities around it because as you said in the thread you're like managing it with kind of a janky spreadsheet that you pulled together and like you know um you know kind of like working with them through that and it maybe isn't super intuitive to them as they have like tons of technology at their fingertips and so you know i've seen a bunch of like general apps that are doing like kids related investing or different things but i wonder whether there's an

44:04opportunity to kind of create like a very simple set of tools for parents to um sort of like engage and have this general um discourse and dialogue with their kids around like the range of opportunities the thing i thought you know like you have investing that's one like you can put money into the stock market and have discussions around the different companies and the stocks and what it looks like and how it tracks over time you have like a bank like this interest idea which is like you put you know you put money in and it's being loaned out to other people here with other people that got it

44:35here's what it looks like you might have um you know different areas of it right like bonds whatever it might be um but kind of create a set of like very simple intuitive technology tools that allow you to have those discussions recently saw a company called greg you and i talked about this uh um early bird early bird that i think our friend alexis backed that um has like the investing side of it where you can kind of like set up an account for your kid and have you know people contribute dollars so that you can have investments and and talk to your kid about those over time i

45:10think the combination of like the actual functionality plus the um education and like discussion aspect of it is where it becomes really interesting like what you're doing where you're actually able to have the discussions with your kids explain to them how it works what the trade-offs are of each decision etc that's where i think something really interesting comes together so i'm curious for you guys thoughts i love it i mean i'm actually just checking it out uh i haven't heard of early bird there are i know there are some other uh what's the one with the something with green uh i know i know one of my kids was asking for like a

45:41credit card from that company it was specifically for children and uh to help them manage finances right um so anything around educating about finances for kids i think it's i think it's a great thing it makes them more comfortable with money you know some of the comments i was seeing in the threads and it was like it wasn't largely people loved it right it kind of went a bit viral relatively speaking for me you know so nasa heal viral but it went viral enough for me um and you know there were some comments about you know some parents like oh let the kids be kids and don't talk to them

46:16about money like i don't i don't you know i feel like they should be more comfortable yeah about money and not be all weird about it when they grow up and if you kind of you know it's not like i said that with them like just talk about money all the time but that's i think that's part of the education um yeah and it's not like you're forcing i mean you're giving them the sense of the trade-offs right like they can either sit and let their money grow or they can spend it in which case it's not growing and they're using it on something and so

46:43like my my general take on it is like uh this is stuff that you're going to have to decide the rest of your life like you all three of us every time you have to decide whether to go buy some nice thing or spend it on something else you're deciding between like investing it in something cool putting it into the market staking it encrypt it like doing all these different things you're having to make those trade-offs and those decisions and so why not educate kids on those trade-offs over time from an early age the challenge with most of these businesses historically by the way has been the customer acquisition cost is

47:13insanely high because um kids are like gen z all of these like teen investing apps and teen banking apps notoriously very difficult businesses that you have to raise a shitload of money for because the churn is crazy high because the kid just like you know they get on it and they're all into it and then they go on to the next thing like whatever the next hot thing is that comes really high turn um and it's really hard to market to them like your marketing to our point earlier through tick tock instagram snapchat it's super expensive to buy the ads and to get the customers um so i think

47:43they're like going early is really interesting because then you're actually selling to a parent like with early bird it's kind of cool because they're like selling to me um or they're selling to you val and they're saying yeah like oh you're interested in talking to your kid about this over time come join us you're going to be able to track and watch this throughout your life and so now it's like a sticky customer that is sitting there i think there's something actually really interesting with it yeah yeah you know one of the distributions um that i remember when i was researching one of the categories we're looking into potentially start a

48:14business around uh and it was actually kind of related to families and children what i realized how huge of a distribution channel the schools themselves are and you could get in them through ptas oh i like that yeah the p the parent teacher associations are like everywhere like and they have so many parents involved and you know and teachers like so there are many ways yeah and get into uh some of these categories here's the tech lite version of it by the way which i'll leave you and we can jump to the next idea the tech light so that the tech heavy version is something like early

48:50bird you know build a whole platform they raise money they're like you know now a high-flying tech company um the tech lite version is literally go create like a newsletter or a blog that is um it kind of offers uh free information plus like paid premium tools that take parents new parents on this money and educational journey with their kids i think that in and of itself would be really interesting and valuable where you're literally just like hey we're going to give you free information about how to talk about interesting new money things and teach them to your kids and by the way if you want to do more here's

49:28like the free or no here's like the premium paid uh set of tools for like showing in a spreadsheet how to track the different things and it's just like a preset spreadsheet where you can track their investments or track the interest stuff um i think that would be really cool you could probably go set that up and like build an audience around something like that and i bet you could generate a seven-figure business just off of doing something like that well it wasn't market watch i don't know we could move on but like market watch is like the right i think it's market watch that has the stock market game

49:57yeah right and if you have kids like all the schools use that one platform to do a stock market game like they compete in the schools and they all use that market watch uh stock market game so somebody's already giving it's just like one tool yeah and it's been used for who knows how many years it's been around i think it existed when i was in school yeah like it's been around you know i mean i went to school they didn't have market watch back then so um they used to do with some other like little paper like i would fill out like my stock buys i remember

50:29uh on a piece of paper but yeah like those tools and i i bet i bet marketwatch has so much traffic just coming from that particular category if i was doing this uh idea i would do it as a free-to-play game so a video game okay i'm reading this book right now called reality is broken why games make us better and how they could change the world by jane mcdonnell and it's fascinating and i think it's actually a must read for any i think it's a must read for any person interested in product but i also think it's a must read for any parent um because there's definitely that

51:12you know a lot of parents think oh my god you know my my kids are playing video games it's a waste of time that sort of thing but it's just about how you can use uh game dynamics to get people to learn how to do things and if it's a free game you can go to the pta and be like hey like it's a free game go check it out go to xyz.com um get that's what robinhood is yeah it's a yeah it's a game it's a game it's a robin hood they they gamify the stock market yeah listen so somebody like probably my age and you guys right the

51:46reality is the government has pulled away the ability for the average people to make a lot of kind different kinds of investments the sec basically blocks all kinds of different uh uh opportunities because they you know they scrutinize everything right so that's why we have the world we live in where institutional money like we see money is access to all these tech companies grows them to tens of billions of dollars of value only then give put them out on the ipo because it's just not worth for these companies to go public anymore right same thing happens with all the alternative investments and we're starting to see

52:23all this cracking all over the all over the place robin hood gamified it i mean they got into trouble with the cc a bit here and there right you got like all these other platforms that are just made it more available like angel list right or other places like so you got more public involved in just all these investments now because it's finally getting like reopened up and there's just so much pent-up demand for that and uh so i think we're seeing seeing that right now and like you're to your point greg like robin hood is that's what exactly they did is they gamified um the dynamics of the

52:58stock market this is like a fascinating space but i'm actually about greg i haven't talked to you about this i'm about to invest in a um big player in this space in india um that's doing like um i don't know what i don't know what it's called like played a game i don't know it's like real money finance type games where like you you put money into it that gets you um like literal tokens not like crypto tokens but literally well it's like being in an arcade so like you put money you put you know 10 rupees in you get 10 rupees worth of tokens you can use them to play the like

53:31games that are in the app um and you can earn rewards from the app um and that's kind of like their marketing costs but the 10 rupees you put in is actually like into a savings account like it's invested for you and so then you can like it's sort of a way of onboarding this whole new generation of people into saving and investing via games um and so like exactly to your point greg it's this amazing way of like onboarding an entirely new generation of people into saving investing etc through a gamified uh experience that people kind of intuitively know and understand yeah super interesting space state to earn i

54:08think that's the terminology for those all those games yeah this isn't quite play to earn uh with savings component yeah i don't i don't know what the what the like effective term is of this um it's not play to earn because you're not like um it's not quite the same mechanics of it it's not like a crypto you know etc um it's really like you know real money gaming um is kind of like the general space that it exists in but super interesting space nonetheless um yeah anyway let's uh let's jump who else uh who else has one uh business idea you wanna you go who

54:43who went who did the first last one i think that one was me oh yeah you did the last one okay um listen man i i think that i mean i could i could give it a shot go for it i think that and i'm learning this myself now to be frank i think that is underrated right i've never used that in my past in my life um whether aggressively or even moderately i'm starting to use it moderately the reason i'm saying that is the abundance of availability of like sba loans now the government is like looking for ways to give give out money people should be taking advantage of

55:21that right because and if you could use that i'm not saying like just do stupid and waste you know and you know take on debt um i think it's very serious but in right moderation you could acquire a little you know or not maybe not so little to most people you know a business right that maybe it's a franchise business or it's a or it's a you know a local you know two doors low you know local two doors doing whatever selling whatever or doing whatever right so if you could take an sba loan a lot of times the mechanics are you could pay that loan off so quickly

55:59and then you have this high roi business that will pump out cash flow for you even after you pay that um after as you're paying that loan even so there's so many opportunities around that especially the interest rates are being super low i i think that uh everything becomes an opportunity yeah i think um you know the combination so sba loans small business administration like they give out loans basically they have partner banks all around the country so you can go you can look up on the website what partner banks exist near you develop a relationship with like a local branch that issues these loans they come with

56:36really friendly terms you know like long long terms low rates obviously rates are rising some now but still quite low i think the combination of sba loans so the the downside of sba loans is they are they are um personal like uh personal guarantees and and recourse to you so if you default on one of these you're gonna be on the hook with like garnishing wages in the future to pay them off um but an sba loan in combination with doing some form of seller financing um when you go buy a small business is like a hugely hugely powerful thing and it's what some of if you're on twitter and

57:12you follow like cody sanchez who we've had on this show or um nick huber or some of these other folks um they're writing about this where it's like this huge opportunity that exists where you can go buy these small businesses with extraordinarily little down um chris munn is another one that i've seen right about this um where basically like you can put 50k down get like 750k of seller financing which is basically that you're buying the business from them but what are they going to do with that money they're going to have to pay a bunch of taxes on the business and so they're loaning you

57:44the money to buy their own business and you're going to pay them a rate on that so for them they're happy because hey they don't have to pay taxes because it's not like a gain yet it's a loan that they're making and they're getting a rate of return on it which is probably above what the market is giving them in this environment um and the combination of the seller financing plus an sba loan you can go buy a business that maybe is making like several hundred thousand dollars in cash cashier for much less than that and be making it a massive effective rate of return on the equity

58:12that you're putting into it so i mean i agree with you i think it's really interesting the flip side of it is i do think there's like massive headaches that um operating one of those businesses can have that uh you know small business twitter uh maybe like glazes over when they when they write about these things oh absolutely it's uh anything like that is a hustle right and but if you are making whatever if you're making 60 000 salary 80 000 salary right and you have the opportunity to buy something that's generating 200 000 i mean that's a game changer and you'll like if i was in those shoes i probably

58:50hustled to make that 200 000 and then eventually at 200 000 you know you you buy a few more or you build a few more and you're up to a half a million a million dollars a year uh in profits and like i i didn't i don't really follow much of those on twitter but like i i've and i've never taken sba myself but um some people asked me for uh advice and like i'll give you one example this uh this guy he's a he has a family and he uh was looking at buying a business for two million dollars that was generating like seven hundred thousand in

59:23in profit um i think was ibdam or net i don't remember and then you know and he could take a he was already approved for sba to give him a loan all you have to do is put a hundred thousand dollars or 130 000 or something like along those lines and there you go like you put on 120 000 and you could buy a business that's generating five six hundred thousand dollars right and there's so much cushion like if something goes wrong and you don't make that six hundred thousand now you made four hundred thousand dollars or three hundred thousand there's just still so much cushion

59:50in between for these small businesses because they're typically sold at like three times you know three to five times income um so roi and like there's a big cushion if you mess something up you you um there is like room to make mistakes yes it's interesting too because it's a way for people to like opt out of the um the standard path right like maybe you're not you know a tech you know builder or where you're not going to go raise a bunch of money for some vc backed thing that's totally fine but you also don't want to go you know have to work for someone the

1:00:24rest of your life this is like a pretty cool way if you're you know entrepreneurial to go buy a local business and build you know really meaningful income and wealth um you know without having to do either of those paths like you can kind of opt out of the of the standardized life and system of like working for someone and climbing up the corporate ladder and buy like a local landscaping business um and you know operate it doesn't have to be so scary like buying a local landscape business is scary like there's so many things that you probably most people don't know about right but you could

1:00:57also buy a franchise right and a lot of the stuff is already figured out for you by those friends it doesn't have to be like a major major franchise it could be like a franchise with 300 locations i wanted to do kids swim schools that was the one that i was like really high on recently because parents pay everyone puts their kids into these swim schools now they'll like i was looking it up the other day the unit economics on the boxes like they make a couple million dollars per box um with like really high margins because it's literally just a pool like it's not a

1:01:25fancy place um and so if you can just like finance the build out of one of these uh very low overhead from a labor perspective because it's literally just like a few classes a day and you just need like one or two teachers to do them but there are these kids swim schools that you can go get there's not like crazy net worth requirements to getting the um to getting the uh franchise um uh licenses or whatever it's called um for i for a given exactly which one you're talking about because my my my kids for many years used to go to uh one of those and

1:01:56there's also franchise yeah and literally everyone puts their kids into these things goldfish was the one that i was looking at um uh i think but i'm not sure if it's a franchise or not i think it is a franchise yeah safety swim yeah yeah the other one that would be amazing would be building these like um uh kids like birthday party places um these things have like risen especially in higher income areas like apples yeah they're like you basically just put up like a turf field and like a bunch of like games and people can like bring their own food you rent out the place

1:02:26they're rented out for like years the one in my friend's neighborhood where he was having his kids birthday party is literally rented out every weekend for the next year like he had to do the kid's third birthday at the same time as doing his second birthday because it's rented out for every weekend so and i was just like this is in the middle of nowhere it's in an industrial area it's literally just like turf there's nothing super nice don't think they're a machine too like they like they have everybody on the conveyor belt to go from room to room yeah and you can do like during the

1:02:51week you can do like corporate events or you could do like soccer games like do like a league or something like that i i think you could make a killing off that business i'm listening to you guys speak and i couldn't be less interested in like owning a landscape business or owning this like turf where i'm inviting kids to it and for high income earners like i think what happened was on twitter there was everyone just talking about internet products all the time and then there became this like wave of like you know sort of physical sweaty businesses and it's been like really you know in vogue on vogue to like go and

1:03:34buy a laundromat and my take is it's a really personal decision like i know as an internet person like owning a laundromat owning a landscaping business like you know my hair looks good or you know i've got a lot of hair but my hair is about to be gone like fully take it out of my hair like if i go and you know run a business like that i think that it's a very personal decision for me not no bueno but for i think there's gonna be a lot here's my prediction i think there's gonna be a lot of internet people who are gonna end up buying laundromats and stuff like

1:04:12that and it's gonna go really wrong and i have one more i want to end with one thing val if you were building your affiliate business and all of a sudden you're like you know what i need to go i see there's this like loan i can get and i can go like buy a landscaping business isn't that like you know right before you came on we were talking about focusing and how big heads down is really important isn't that like the opposite of that like splitting your attention like don't you think like if you're really good at something don't you think you should like double down on

1:04:45it oh yeah absolutely that's what i was saying like figure out what you're good at um try to do some arbitrage around that and then double down into that category i would absolutely not be buying landscaping businesses you know like like i said i don't i don't know anything about a lot of things out there um but what so my pushback to this greg by the way first off um i completely agree with you not for everyone sounds like a complete headache what the way i would do it because i don't want to go run a landscaping business either i don't want to run like uh this place was

1:05:18called chatter splatter like the kids turf thing or like a goldfish swim school like i don't want to go run that either um and i don't think i'd be good at it i don't think i'd be good at it but could i like go pay some young person like 200 grand a year and it'd be a great salary for them to run it and like deal with all of the headaches give them like some upside plus a salary and now i own something that happens to be netting me like 40 cash on cash returns annually and now it's just like a great investment and it's throwing off a bunch

1:05:46of cash flow i don't hate that idea yeah until that idea works extremely well until something happens and the manager quits or leaves and all of a sudden you're like on the on the front lines in the trenches and like you're sacrificing your main business to go like go for a swim yeah and that's that's the risk and yeah like is that you know a small risk absolutely but like i want to i think yeah yeah the way i think about it is like i want to take risks in my world and my business like around like agency and studio and stuff like that like i in internet stuff and

1:06:25community and web 3 i don't want to take risks and like and stuff like that i think what you're getting you're getting at like a very profound and and important point to reiterate which is like know your know your game and um and focus on your game um and i do it i think it's a great point to make because um i i've been saying this recently like if you if you want to excel in anything write down the 10 most important things in your life and then cross seven of them off the list um and focus on those three because like you can't have ten

1:06:58things that you care about that you're focusing on you can really only have a couple and so you need to just be ruthless about prioritizing them i completely agree with you greg actually um in hearing you say it and thinking about it because i've often thought about this in the case of real estate where i've had friends who are like make theirs make some decent money and then they're like oh i'm gonna go buy rental properties and personally i think that most people that buy rental properties maybe this is a hot take it's like a vanity thing where they want to be able to flex and say that they own rental

1:07:27properties because the vast majority of my friends that have done that it is the combination of a headache and it doesn't drive better returns than just investing in a publicly traded reit that would get you the same exposure to real estate in general without having to actually manage any properties or do it um so i agree with you greg i think there is probably for the vast majority of situations a much lower headache and lower intensity version of driving the exact same the exact same financial returns listen you got to be able to if you can't scale something it it's not going to be to greg's point it's not going to be

1:08:05manageable because like that manager quits everything goes to you know hits the fan right um like so i actually have a portfolio of multiple companies right that either co-founders of mine or managers who are ceos of these businesses so like i'm talking about serious companies like i have a mobile advertising business my my co-founder is the ceo he runs it you know there are 100 we have 100 employees it's like it's gonna do it's on the track to do like 100 million revenue very profitable right he got it like i don't get involved like real estate i partnered up with a guy who i've known many many years he's like

1:08:46super smart we got i started his business five years ago real estate development around you know like around new york city area is where our focus is which by the way everybody wrote off all over the country uh like every headline like everybody's writing off new york city but it's it's doing so well it's it's unbelievable like we got over 100 million worth of um properties that we're either already finished developing or sold or or you know kind of starting to break ground on now um so i think it's very doable as long as you have the right managers in place but you all you you have to scale up the

1:09:21team first because if that manager can't um you know can't continue for whatever reason right they get hit by a bus or something you got to have ability to be you know if you have scale there are always people that could uh you know step into those shoes or you could hire into them into that position because you know you have a big business that could afford a you know a salad manager so um luckily i've never had that situation but uh you know but i think it's very very doable um again on the on the bigger side like you shouldn't be doing you shouldn't be

1:09:54doing uh landscaping business on the side like in hoping that somebody's gonna run that business for you it's just not gonna happen yeah normally if if something sounds too good to be true it probably is uh yeah and i think with with most of these things you need to go in eyes wide open about that like you're not you're not getting those kind of returns uh for free it comes with additional risk in the form of headaches or financial risk um you're buying a job too you're like that scale you're buying a job yeah which like if you're you know a hustler and a grinder and you want to

1:10:25get out of your like sales role that you were doing and trying to climb the corporate ladder maybe that's what you want maybe it's like a great way to kind of own your own career and own your life and you can go build around that but to greg's point not for everybody um no this was awesome and really enjoyed getting to uh getting to jam with you man i mean 30 million dollars uh from a from a parent's basement i think has to go down in the record books as one of the more legendary stories of uh of uh hustling that we've had on the show

1:10:55so dude truly appreciate you joining um a bunch of interesting stuff i mean the um huge opportunity around finance for kids um check out early bird if you haven't checked it out val i think it's i think it's pretty interesting i just set one up for for my kid actually super smart move by the founders by the way like i had tweeted about something with it and they uh they sent me fifty dollars um for my kids account and it like got it started now i'm like oh i'm using this you know it is a great customer acquisition tactic now you're talking about it to do that really smart now i'm

1:11:27talking about it and they did it so um very very smart um but uh between that the um business idea around you know or or lack thereof of some of these uh sweaty businesses as uh as greg points out the downsides of them a lot of interesting stuff to chew on here so really appreciate you joining um any uh any final takeaways from either you guys go read oh man i appreciate you having me uh this is awesome i mean listen i don't know i don't know what you guys are doing but you got some magic sauce um you know both of you on kind of the

1:12:00content side and some of the some of the stuff i i read uh some of the threads i've seen it's like wow um so i mean it's it's interesting reading those because i'm not a good communicator some people are and some people aren't that's just not my strength and some of the tweets like i see coming out of you guys um i think you're doing pretty well yeah like i've been doing that and i don't even realize uh i've been doing that my whole life you know what i mean you're doing pretty well for yourself man i don't know i mean you're um you're sharing real earned insights

1:12:35because of stuff that you've done and built along the way which i find really cool and super value-add to the community because a lot of people can learn from it both the positives and the negatives along the way so truly appreciate all that you're doing and excited to get to continue to follow along on your journey nice awesome man and go read uh reality is broken val the that book around game design oh yeah that sounds cool yeah we're gonna check that out yeah absolutely and i already got the i already got the kids thing here so i'm probably signing up to that too yeah check it out awesome

1:13:07awesome great seeing you man thank you so much thanks so much for listening to today's episode if you have any questions that you want featured in a future episode email us at hi trwih.com leave us a review at apple or spotify to help us grow the reach of this podcast until next time we will see you [Music] misery soon a company think on it prey on it simple cup of tea