How to succeed in price negotiations | with Chris Voss

0:00Sales has never been tougher. Budgets are being slashed. Every scent is being scrutinized. Deals that used to close in weeks now take months to close. And when you finally get in front of the buyer, it's never just a friendly chat. It's a hard sales conversation. You got to diagnose the situation. So, just cuz they said they need you to cut the price doesn't mean they need you to cut the

0:20price. Chris Voss is a former lead international hostage negotiator for the FBI and the best-selling author of Never Split the Difference. He has faced conversations where the stakes were literally life or death. And the same principles he used there are exactly what you need when the stakes are your deals, your revenue, or your sales

0:41career. So, first of all, you got to find out if you're being tested. Second, you got to find out whether or not you're the fool in the game. And third, you got to find out what's wrong with the value. In this episode, Chris shares how to stay calm under pressure. So gaining an awareness first and then secondly

0:57working on changing it. How to uncover what the counterpart really wants. So the first thing you do is you simply say sounds like the value is not there for you. And how to turn a no into a start of a real negotiation that most of your questions especially at the opening of the cold outreach is you're trying to elicit a yes. And what you want to do is elicit a no to move things forward. If you want to know how to succeed in hard sales conversations, especially when budgets are tight and every decision is under the microscope,

1:27this is for you. Let's go. People listening to this are most likely sales people or sales leaders selling some IT, tech, or software um technology. And the one thing they all have usually in common these days is that buyers are under pressure to, you know, cut budgets, right? And the one line that sales people hear all too often these days is hey we love your product but you need to cut the price

1:54right. So what's your perspective on which type of mindset do you really need to succeed in such an economy but also in such a situation? Yeah the the mindset that you have to succeed is you you got to diagnose the situation. Now they might be willing to pay you full price but they're taught to ask. So just because they said they need you to cut the price doesn't mean they need you to cut the price. You got to find out if they're testing you, then it's not an it's never an issue of

2:28price ever. If they're going to buy from you and they might not they may be using you as a comparison bid. It's about what you're delivering. Or to use a phrase that people lose track of value. The word value. What's the value? If the price is too high, it's not that the price is too high, it's what they're

2:51getting for that price needs adjustment. So again, if I were to go to um a clothing store and the suit didn't fit, if they gave me a discount on the suit, should I buy it? It still doesn't fit. It doesn't matter what the price is. The value isn't there. It's not a good fit. So, first of all, you got to find out if you're being tested because they are told to test you. Second, you got to find out whether or not you're the fool

3:21in the game. Mhm. Whether you're compar the comparison who's never going to get the job. And third, you got to find out what's wrong with the value. So, the first thing you do is you simply say, "Sounds like the value is not there for you. That's begins their response is the diagnosis. How they respond. You probably need to

3:48mirror. The first thing was a label. Sounds like the value is not there for you. Whatever they say after that, you mirror it. Repeat the last one to three words of what they said. And actually listen. Don't have what we call happy ears where you're only happy to hear the stuff that you hope to hear. Can't have happy ears. You have to actually listen. Their answer will tell you, are they simply

4:15testing you? They might say, "No, you know what? As a matter of fact, the price isn't bad. Uh, the value is good. I was just told I got to get a discount." Okay, so if the value is good, you're not discounting it. They want to buy what they want to buy fits and then you can say something that affect you mirror it. So you say you were just told to ask that that's

4:45mirroring. Bring it out in the open. If they still persist, the value's there, they're going to buy from you and they still persist. Then you say some of the effect of how am I supposed to be your long-term provider of value if you cut my price. Now you're changing the conversation from short-term to long-term, which is always what people get caught up in. They're really worried about the short-term profit. But long term, if you are delivering what they want,

5:26replacing you is expensive. And how am I supposed to be your long-term provider if you cut the price? They start thinking, "Oh, wow. If I drive them away and I got to replace them, how long did it take me to find them in the first place?" M it's like a really good employee or a

5:49really good car mechanic. These are hard to find and they're very expensive to replace and you have to get them to start thinking about that. But you got you got to get to that point first. It's entirely possible that you were the competing bid. If you're the competing bid, they're going to be overly focused on price. And when you say, "Sounds like the value is not there for you." If that doesn't trigger a value conversation in some way, if they're only focused on price,

6:27you are the competing bid. And it's not really a competition. They've already decided to go with the other company. They want to get a lower price from you to drive the other company down. That's all the only reason why they need a lower price from you. You're not getting a you're not getting a business.

6:48Yeah. You're just you're just causing a problem for somebody else, which means you shouldn't lower your price. Yeah. Now, if you're the favorite and not the fool, you shouldn't lower your price because you're the favorite and you want to maintain a long-term relationship with them. And the long and the question about being a long-term provider reminds you that you're in it

7:11for the long term with them. Yeah. So, yeah, of course they're going to challenge you on price. You have to diagnose a situation. Find out which of those three situations it is and that's how you diagnose. What I really love about mirroring basically it's it's labeling in and mirroring is basically both what you do, right? uh with with that those are the two those are the one two punches the the the companion skills that no matter who you face on the other side of the table every one of them likes labels and merits yeah and I think for in a sales situation it throws the ball back to the

7:49other person point you don't need to justify yourself you don't justify the price ah yeah but our price is so great and our product is so great but now the ball is on the other side again you can have it here it is play with it Yes. And it almost forces the other side either to um hey no no I'm really interested but we still need to speak about the price or yeah you are right we don't see the value and actually we don't have budget and we have this other vendor so it doesn't make sense to continue the conversation and then you get the you know you get an honest answer. If

8:20you give people the room to give you an honest answer you will get an honest answer. Really well said. Yeah. And this is just giving them the room to give you an honest answer. Yeah. Still I think to do that I think it would most most sales people fail not knowing what to do or with the right tech strategy but they have the wrong mindset or maybe their self-confidence is lacking because what I often see is that sales people see negotiations or tough sales interactions or even meetings as type of you know conflict it's a debate they that's why they shy away from it and they are willing to take whatever is

8:57offered from uh from the other side or maybe give discounts Uh, and I think what stops us very often is is is kind of fear, fear of whatever. So, how do you coach people, not just sales people, to avoid this kind of desperation? Um, and yeah, yeah, we do everything for you. Just sign a contract kind of. How do you avoid desperation

9:19with sales people? Um, practice, for lack of a better term. Um, we say small stakes practice for high stakes results. So you begin to look for interactions in your everyday life and they're everywhere to practice the skills to label and mirror people like with everybody because you got to get comfortable with labels and mirrors and it goes and you

9:44got to get beyond being scripted. A lot of sales people love scripts. You know, I got a script and I got all these different possibilities laid out and it's this great road map in front of me. If they say this, I say that. If they say this, I say that. And he feel very safe and comfortable in that

10:03script. And you miss opportunities. The other side doesn't feel listened to, which is offensive. You don't mean it, but you deteriorate your relationship by not being able to actually listen. So, you practice the skills in your everyday life with your significant other. with your parents, with your children, with your friends, with people at the grocery store, with the lift driver, with the

10:33people in the airport, like everywhere. Use the skills all over the place. And use them whether if you want directions, use the skills to get directions. And um and start by stop saying to people, "How are you today?" Because if you count the number of times you say, "How are you today?" to somebody maybe seven, eight times. Instead, take a look at them and label

11:04how they look. Seems like you're having a good day. You seem tired. Seems like something's on your mind. You don't try to change how they're feeling. You label what what you see. Example, I sat down with a business colleague. We're teaching a course and three of us are the instructors from three separate companies. The companies are collaborating. One of them is a very analytical guy. His name is Nick. And I sit down on the stage with him about 20 minutes before the teaching is supposed

11:42to start. And he's sitting in a chair and I just look at him. I haven't seen Nick in months. And I just look at him and I I just kind of look at him for a second and then I say, "You seem centered because I'm trying to get a feel for where he is. Is

12:01he happy? Is he distracted? Is he stressed? It's just an observation." Yeah. I could have said, "How are you?" I looked at him. I said, "You seem cynic." And he hesitates for a second. He says, "Yeah, I just got back from the mountain. You know, last time we saw each other, I hadn't been up on the mountain in a long time. I've been really busy. And when I when I'm up on

12:26the mountain, you know, I'm meditating. I'm practicing." He's into a lot of martial arts and his his teachers are there. And so he goes up there to get away and to relax and he loves his martial arts. I get all this information instead of saying, "How are you?" M you know if id have said how how are you to him he probably said fine how are you instead I label him you seem centered I get a ton of information which I want to get you know I want him to feel connected to me but I'm practicing too I got to practice everybody's got to practice so you practice by your labels and

13:07mirrors by whoever you encounter and then when it's time to put together strategy when you're challenged over price. You've been labeling and mirroring and listening all of the above so that you do really well in in the negotiation with a customer who's challenging your price. What really worked well for me after I read your book, I think it's a long time ago, many many years. I've been rep sales rep 15 years myself and in 50 years 15 sorry 15. I was going to say I'm going to take the vitamins you're

13:45taking. Yeah. Yeah. I bring it to you from Austria next time. It's in your in your box there. No, just joking. The the the the tactic worked very well for me is for example, you're showing to your customer your software. You're demonstrating your product. You're demonstrating your solution, right? And I'm sitting in a demonstration. I'm demoing my product and I have the feeling ah the customer is kind of not really into it. He doesn't seem to be kind of impressed. So, instead of saying, "Hey, how do you like the

14:13software? How do you like the product?" I say, "Instead, um, it seems to me that you're not overly impressed with what I'm showing you." Well done. Yeah. And it opens up the a room for an honest discussion what he's missing out on, why he's not impressed, or maybe my observation is wrong, and he will justify himself. No, no, no. I'm just very tentative, and maybe it could come across that I'm not interested. So, it's a fantastic strategy in in every sales

14:40encounter you can use it. Yeah. Yeah. Well done on your part because so many sales people would be afraid to say that. Yeah. You know, they'd be horrified. Oh my god, he's not interested. I got to talk some more. I got to talk louder. I, you know, I got to move around more. I got

14:51to wave my arms. Exactly. But you just observe what's going on. And as you said before, you gave them the room to be honest with you. Yeah. And then they were Yeah. Yeah. Well done. And you said something before. You said pre practice it in everyday like encounters, right? So kind of practice your out of the comfort zone muscle,

15:11right? Yeah. Um I think needs to be practiced like negotiations is a perishable skill. Also your out of comfort zone muscle is kind of um needs to be practiced. It seems to me when when I hear you speak or I see you on podcasts or on videos or on the stage that for you it's comes so natural to be out of the comfort zone to be that honest. Have you been that way all the time or have you done something to learn it yourself to be that bold also in in everybody can learn that that's the crazy thing you have to as as soon as you practice it you know and make

15:44yourself intentionally uncomfortable it gets easy now it doesn't get easy right away gets easy a little at a time I'm I'm going to modify things I've heard a couple people say a big fan of Cody Sanchez she's a businesswoman um phenomenal uh influencer, podcaster, great business thought. She says, "Choose your heart." She says, "It's hard to be successful.

16:12It's hard to be broke. Choose your heart." And I realized then if you if the dynamic of habits are any habit to establish is always hard at first and then eventually it becomes easy. David Gogggins, stay hard. Gogggins gets up and he runs 5,000 miles. You know, there's there was a meme I saw a long time ago. Elon Musk is landing on Mars and and they get there and Gogggins is already there running around, you know, and we like, how does he do that, you know? How does he It would be hard for him not to do it. What Gogggins does for

16:55Gogggins is easy. Mhm. It would be hard for him to sit on the couch and stuff his face with donuts watching TV complaining, which at one point in time in his life, that's what he did. But he chose his hard and now his heart is easy. What does that have to do with what you just asked? As soon as you choose to start making yourself

17:17uncomfortable. The first time it's horrifying and it feels terrible. Then the third, fourth, fifth time you start going like this ain't bad. And as a matter of fact, this is fun. And so this feeling of discomfort is this this spectre that waits for us in the dark and then you start going into the dark

17:46and the dark isn't that bad. Yeah. You know, you get used to you walk around in the dark. You see stuff. it no longer bothers you. So as soon as discomfort as soon as you choose discomfort on a regular basis then suddenly it becomes very easy and I think um I I've look always looked at it as an adventure

18:12saw a bumper sticker a long time ago. What's the difference between adventure and ordeal? Attitude. And as soon as you look at it as an adventure then it's fun. I've chosen I think three years ago to do a cold shower every morning. Yeah. So that's that deliberate decision to get out of the comfort zone every day. And it's, you know, it's it's the same like it gets easier every time you do it, you know, the first two or three times. But it never gets easy. You I never wake up and say, "Hey, I'm really looking forward to get the cold shower, but I know that the reward afterwards

18:45will be great if I've done it." Right? When you start thinking about how you're going to feel afterwards, that helps my decision on a lot of stuff like that. Yeah. Like, you know, cold shower and I start thinking about how invigorated I'm going to feel afterwards. I can get in a cold shower. Yeah. Flip side, big stack of pancakes with syrup on them. I look at those and I think about how good it's going to feel to eat them. And then I think about how awful I'm gonna feel when I hit that sugar crash and all those carbs hit my system and I'm gonna feel lousy the rest

19:20of the day. If I can think about something bad, that in a moment's going to feel so good, but I'll feel horrible afterwards. If I imagine what it's like to feel horrible, it's easy for me to say no. So, it's all in how your vision in your head is playing out. Exactly. Before we continue with the episode, there is one important tip for you. If you're listening to this, you probably want to negotiate better, communicate smarter, and close deals faster. And to do all of that, you need to get more feedback. And to become a negotiation expert, you should be using a meeting recording tool that gives you

19:57instant feedback on your sales calls. And that's exactly where our partner, Kickscale, comes in. Kickscale helps sales teams measurably improve their conversations with a platform that records and analyzes your customer calls, provides structured feedback, and shows where you can make your conversations even stronger. In just a few minutes, you will see which questions you asked, where you built trust, and when you might have mentioned the price too early. The best sales teams worldwide improve their sales conversations this way based on data and not just gut feeling. And with the link down below in the show notes, you will get an exclusive free version with 50 recorded and analyzed meetings from

20:40Kickscale. So get your kick scale access down below with the link. And now let's get back to the episode. Do you have any daily weekly routine to get out the comfort zone? Ah, that's a good question. Um, I think I try to stay out there as much as possible. I'm not sure how often I find myself

21:03avoiding stuff. Um, and you know, I probably do and I have to I have to rethink the chatter in my head to get myself to do it. Like not necessarily com comfort zone, but the stuff I hate I hate doing my finances and I hate working on my taxes, any any of that stuff and anything I'm

21:25procrastinating on. So, I'll have to change the chatter in my head. So I'll say, well, this is a privilege to do this. I don't have to do it. I get to do it. So, you know, I've been attacking my comfort zone for a long time. So, it's as a general rule, it's not that bad for me.

21:40Yeah. And that's why it's not that bad for me. Yeah. You know, I had a lot of people, a confrontation is out of the comfort zone. And I feel bad when I avoid them. Mhm. I know how bad I'm going to feel if I avoid a confrontation. Now, I'm also going to feel bad if I'm mean about it. You know that what you want to do is have a confrontation and be kind

22:07simultaneously. Yeah. But I know how bad I'm going to feel if I avoid it. I had a we had a disagreement with a um a car was supposed to pick us up, my girlfriend Wendy and I, when we when we landed in at JFK here in New York City just um ear last week. And uh the guy was giving us a hard time and then he got mad at us again when he dropped us off. And yeah, I did confront

22:33him. Okay. I didn't use any profanity, but uh I you know, I stepped closer to him and then I pointed out the conversation we'd had previously. Yeah. So because if I hadn't I would have I that's the kind of thing that I feel I don't feel good about myself if I avoid confrontation. Yeah. Yeah. I think that you know you you mentioned before that it becomes easy once you do it regularly and once I think it be becomes part also of your identity uh that you identify yourself with hey I'm the person that is honest and that is bold and that is that is getting out

23:16of the comfort zone and asking the tough questions also to my customers or negotiation partners. Y um I think confidence comes also a long way. There's a great quote I heard from one of my coaches. You never um rise to the occasion, but you always fall back to a level of your preparation. Uhhuh. Uh and specifically with tough conversations, I think a lot of them are worn or lost long time before they start sometimes. Yes. Yeah. And in in in sales or in life, we jump on conversations thinking, hey, I will say whatever comes to my mind in that very conversation, you know, like like for this podcast

23:52with you, I know I was thinking through, hey, what do I want to get out of this conversation with you? Right? So, I practiced I I I tried to you say, hey, I'm meeting Chris, so what will I say? What will I ask him? The question I have for you is what is a smart preparation for a tough meeting or conversation looking like for you that can be applied also like in a

24:13business context? Well, I've got I've gotten I've used the skills enough that I really rely on them. So for me at this point uh because I constantly practice the skills and without the practice you can't get there. You lose it. like if I don't practice the skills, I lose them. You know, I I got a way of asking for uh

24:38an upgrade to a hotel suite. And in the pandemic, the first time I walked into a hotel after having not walked into one for a year, I'm getting ready to go in, I realized I had been practicing. And I actually started in uh into the hotel lobby. I hadn't got my practice in. So, I imagined myself failing. I was scared. I hadn't practiced the skills. I actually went back out of the hotel and I walked back and forth and back and forth to psych myself up and go in and try it again. Now, your question

25:13is preparation. It's mindset. Mhm. And it's not a mindset that I will succeed or fail. The critical issue is am I in a positive mindset even playful? And I found that to have a playful mindset is a superpower. Mhm. The playful tone of voice is actually more powerful than the late night FM DJ voice because you're 31% smarter in a playful in a positive frame of mind. So if you're playful, you're smarter and you can call on the skills more quickly. You can sense the empathy that needs to be used with the other side more quickly. So, you're smarter, you're more agile, you're more

26:07adept at the skills when you're playful. Emotions are contagious for neuroscience reasons, not for psychological reasons. So, if I'm playful and upbeat, you're going to start to be playful and upbeat, too. And then you'll be more collaborative with me. There's a phrase, never be mean to someone who could hurt you by doing nothing. Mhm. So, if I'm mean to you, you're going to be in a bad mood. You're not going to help me. If I'm playful with you, you're going to be in a good mood. You could

26:41probably help me. Example, I owed a medical bill probably about two years ago and I pay my bills, but as I told you before, you know, I don't like messing around my finances and sometimes I procrastinate. And since I know I'm going to pay, I don't feel bad if I don't pay right away. And I'm looking at a medical bill for about $3,800 and it's 90 days old and I'm ah okay, you know, I just got to pay this. I just

27:08been procrastinating. It's about 10:00 in the morning and I had just had my morning coffee. So, I'm upbeat. I'm playful. You know, I'm thinking I'm I'm ready to have a little fun. So, I call him on the phone and I think, you know what the heck? 10% discount is normally a throwaway. If I'm nice, it's pretty good chance they'll at least toss me 10% if I pay it in full right now, especially since it's 90 days old. They're starting to worry about

27:35collection. So, I call through the phone tree and I get their collections department and the woman answers the phone and she just says, "Hello." Not, "How may I help you? How are you today?" Just like a straight dead hello. Now, from her end, she's used to people calling and whining and complaining. I don't know this. This is not fair. blah

27:57blah blah excuses. She answers the phone. She says hello and I go, I owe you money. Okay. And her her her playful but saying I owe her money. That's what she's going to say. That's what's in her. If I start talking about my bill right away in her brain, she's going to say, "Yes, but you owe us money." So, I am saying what's in

28:20her head in a real playful mood. and she says, "Well, give me your customer ID." You know, she's she's no longer she's nicer than the hello. And she looks it up and she comes back at me. She says, "Oh, yes, you do." Just like that. Now, she's playful. And so, I continue the joke playfully. I say, "I need to pay you guys for you come to my

28:45house and drag me out into the street." And she says, "Oh, yes. And we will do that, too." Because I know in debt collections, if it gets bad enough, they have a sheriff's auction. They come to your house, they take your possessions, and the sheriff auctions them off to pay the debt. And if she's in debt collection, she's been in it long enough where they've actually done that. Now, this girl's laughing with me. I'm the only person that's been playful with her. I end up

29:19getting an 80% discount. 80. Your original question preparation first. I practice the skills enough that I rely on them. I practice empathy enough that based on the circumstances, I know what you're saying to yourself about me. If you're in debt collections, what you're saying to yourself about me is like, "Hey, pal, you owe us money and you better pay because we're going to come drag you out of your house if you

29:51don't." So, I say that and I'm playful and she changes completely, but it was all about learn the skills. The preparation is mindset. And it wasn't success or failure. It was just I'm going to call this girl on them. It turned out to be a young lady and I'm just going to have fun and see what happens. And it's amazing how many great things happen is

30:20with just that. I wouldn't even say it's mindset. I would even label it state management. You know that you deliberately decide I will be in a playful state, in a creative state, in a positive state because often we enter those conversations. Ah, damn it. I don't want to have this conversation and I don't want to have this call and it will be awkward and I just want to avoid it and I want to procrastinate it and you enter the conversation already with this

30:45negative state. Yes. And you you mentioned like this mirroring of neurons, right? We mirror the emotions of other people. I think positive emotions are mirrored much more intensely than negative emotions. So if I decide, hey, today I'm meeting Chris, I'll be super pumped up. Maybe he will be pumped up as well. it will probably

31:04work better. Right? The question is how you know how to train yourself or how to get yourself into that playful state. How do you do that? Like just visualize it or say to yourself, I'm playful, playful, playful. What would you do to get into a playful state? Well, that's a it's it's a great question because uh there's some cliche things and then I think there's a few things that I I I feel I've recently uh uncovered. So, the cliche things, how do

31:30you start your day? Um I have a gratitude exercise I start my day with and a lot of people do whatever it takes. It could be a gratitude exercise. It could be prayer. It could be meditation. It could be physical exercise. Management of state requires paying attention to the five pillars of health which are diet, exercise, nutrition, spirituality and

31:56relationships. Those are your pillars. Those are your starting points. Now it's essential. Those are essential and inadequate. What's what's the next? I hear about a book called Chatter or mental chatter. And we all know that I don't know what the number is. You have 50,000 conversations in your head a day and there there's a constant in inner chatter going on and the majority

32:25of the conversations are repetitive. And I thought to myself, what if I get behind those conversations? What if I start changing the conversation, my gratitude exercises in the morning, but if I get if I get the chatter going like, "Ah, this person annoys me. Oh, I got to do my taxes again." You know,

32:48that's negative chatter. Now, simple but very, very difficult to first become aware of your chatter. If you're in a bad mood, your chatter's negative. There's no way around that. So, gaining an awareness first and then secondly, working on changing it. Both of those are hard, but that's the way your state state management, you know, that's how you how you manage your

33:19state throughout the day. Yeah. And they can be little phrases. This is either happening to me or for me. Oh, I didn't invent that phrase. I've heard a lot of people used it before. This is a success problem. Thank God I got to pay all these taxes because if I wasn't making a lot of money, I wouldn't have to pay taxes. I wish, you know, 10 years ago, I wished I had the problems I have now. This is a success problem. I got I got to make a difficult choice between two great opportunities. I remember when I didn't have any opportunities. This is a great dilemma to be in. It's re- rooting,

34:01reframing, reframing the conversation in your head. The conversation in your head is ongoing all the time. That chatter never stops. So, become aware of it and then work on turning it positive. That is an ongoing battle for me, but absolutely worth it. It doesn't seem like it's a big battle for you. Uh, you know, all right. Well, you know what? What's that? They say the duck analogy, the duck's really calm on the above the water and below the water is

34:28paddling like crazy, right? Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Maybe it's the same for me. Yeah. I mean, it for what works best for me is I learned it from my one of my biggest indirect mentors, which is Tony Robbins. I figured that, you know, you were Robins fan when you talked about managing state because that's

34:45definitely, you know, state changes. That's his his um his kind of wording. And what I like to do is I like to put on some, you know, some some music, some energetic upbeat music and then just walking in my living room like like I would be playful, you know, how how would I walk if I'm playful? What I would do if I'm, you know, like and I use my body because for me personally, I think everyone needs to figure out for himself what works best. If it's more from the mental visualization and and affirmation point of view or from the you know using your body to change your state

35:18I think you should do both then then maybe it works even all that stuff works and then you you play with it and either you find what works best for you or maybe what works best in the moment. Exactly. And the music is huge. I there's there's a there I think I heard an indicator that mankind may have had music before

35:38we had language. I thought I heard that. But it's such a universal thing and such a universal influence. Doesn't matter gender, ethnicity, religion, geography, diet, any of that stuff. Mankind responds to music and you can use that. Yeah. Well done. Thanks. Now I think uh preparation is one thing and it's a big big thing preparation how you get into a meeting how you get into the conversation very often I feel sales people think hey now the customers in the room the customers entered the meeting now he has all the power oh my god I need to perform now like he he is now in the driving seat

36:18because you know um I want it more than the customer and and a lot of listeners here are doing cold outreach you know they are maybe cold calling on people and um in that moment of course you want it more than the customer because the customer doesn't see the value of your product yet,

36:36right? So how would you let's say you know build trust in a situation where you are in a position where you want the deal or something more than the other side. All right. So there's a couple different things you're talking about and a couple different circumstances. So, you talked about a cold outreach and then you talked about once you got into

36:59the meeting. Yeah. Where do you want to start? I think in the meeting. Okay. In the meeting. Um, so if they if they're talking to you at all, they have a reason. We used to say if they're talking to you, you got leverage. I don't think in terms of leverage anymore. I only think of influence. Influence is a much better way to think about things. Leverage is is is antiquated. It's

37:27physics before Einstein was Newtonian. Leverage is Newtonian. Physics after Einstein, it's quantum physics. Influence is quantum physics. If they're talking to you, there's a reason. What you got to do is find out what that reason is respectfully. And you can even say, opens up, open it up. seems like you got a reason for meeting

37:52with us today. That's a label that lands like a question. Questions make people feel questioned, which diminishes rapport. Questions also cause people to think about the answer before they give it. You can say, "What's your reason for meeting with us today?" They'll filter that answer before they give it to you. seems like you have a reason for meeting with us today gets you a less filtered answer. It also doesn't make them feel question which increases rather than diminishes

38:32rapport. So start with a label and judge the reaction probably mirror whatever they say. there's a really good chance you're gonna get right down to it when our protocol when companies call us and they start with how are you today and uh my salespeople are taught to say sounds like you got a reason for calling one of two things happen they get right to it twothirds of the time, onethird of the time they say I do, but first I really want to know how are you today and okay cool we'll talk about yeah it's a good day it's a bad day whatever for that exchange of

39:29pleasantries is important to about a third of the people out twothirds want to get down to business right away yeah now if you always respond if they say how are you today go like ah you know I'm feeling good uh Hey, how are you? Two out of three people find that a waste of time. Now, the one person that loves it, everybody remembers how much the one person loved it. So, they miss how often

39:54they're in a minority. So, whatever interaction it is is, if you say, "Seems they got a reason for meeting with us." It feels respectful to the other side and you will get right down to it more quickly. Yeah. you you uh immediately cut through the chase, cut through the chase and speak about what matters to the customer and you get like also an honest honest answer again. Hey, to be honest uh the reason for the meeting today is this or that or hey actually to be honest I'm not that into that uh deal or not into that offer or whatever and then you can speak about what you know about the pink

40:30elephant in the room without wasting too much time about pleasantries and stuff. Yeah. And they might even say the only reason I'm talking to you is because my boss told me to. Yeah, that's valuable information which you need to have to proceed and so yeah, you you get it out of them really quickly. And how would you transported now into the cold outreach situation? Because

40:52it's a different scenario. You're right. The cold outreach situation is probably the most difficult to do in sales overall. And we've flirted with the idea and we've abandoned it because it's such a low percentage. Mhm. That doesn't mean that somebody listening to this is in that job and has to do it. So the first thing is to be able to switch from yes to no. You got to learn that most of your questions, especially at the opening of the cold outreach, is you're trying to elicit a yes to move things forward. And what you want to do

41:28is elicit a no to move things forward. Just did an interview. We have this TV show called That's Right. And I interview a series of people where they learned the Black Swan skills and they improved their business so much that through the use of the skills and ultimately getting a that's right, they're making a lot of money. One of the guys does cold calling. He's an executive recruiter and he recruits executives who are not

42:02looking for jobs. because the most talented people are not looking for work. They're really well- paid. They're really happy where they are. And he's hired to identify somebody who's really good and make the approach. So, it's a cold call. The cold that cold call would normally start with would you be interested in hearing about an opportunity where you make more money and enjoy your

42:30job more? And it typically took him 300 calls to get three candidates. That first question is hoping to elicit a yes. Typical sales strategy. He changes his strategy to elicit a no. Are you against hearing about a job where you would make more money and possibly be happier? He went from 300 calls to get three to 75 calls to get three. Cold call. Massive

43:08jump. Switching from eliciting yes to move things forward to eliciting no to move things forward. So if you got to do cold calls, you'll increase your win rate by switching from yes to no. hearing yes or hearing no instead of hearing yes to move things forward which is it starts with instead of would you like

43:34are you against? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's because it gives the other person the feeling of control. Hey, I said no. I'm in a I'm in a driving seat, you know. Or would it be a bad would is it is a bad idea to do XY Z or Exactly. would it be a bad idea or is it a bad time to do whatever, right? You elicit the no and then the other person has the sense of control and we want to be in control. You don't want to have the feeling that oh wow someone is manipulating me into some type of offer deal or appointment whatever. So then

44:06then no you call it no oriented questions. No oriented question. No oriented questions. Yeah. Okay. Um there are so many things I want to speak with you about but I think the main part is still when we are in this environment where budgets are cut and uh customers demand you know demand discounts and even loyal loyal customers that are with you for three four five six 10 years say hey look we need to cut budgets you need to offer me a discount here I think we naturally somehow I don't know why but if you human beings are wired to um justify price and value with rational arguments, you know, with

44:47facts, right? When I read your book, when I see you on stage, when I see you on the J Shetty podcast or whatever, it seems to me that your teachings are more focused on the how, on the delivery, on the tone, right? Can you help us understand, walk us through why the how is more important than the what you say and how to coach yourself on that? Well, the the your tone of voice and every word out of your mouth has a tone. Your tone of voice begins to trigger neurochemical changes in the other side right away. Positive tone of voice begins to trigger positive

45:25chem changes. This is a neuro uh chemical reaction, not a psychological reaction, but it's hard science. It's neuroscience. So, I can begin to change your mood based on my tone of voice right away. Am I collaborative? Am I curious? Am I non-threatening? Does it feel good to talk with me? How it feels to talk with me either makes me a threat or removes me as a threat. As soon as I remove myself as a threat, you're more likely to be collaborative. You're more likely to

46:04share your problems with me. and collaborate with me on the answers. Now, people that are under tremendous price pressure, again, that's always a short-term issue. And if you change it into long-term success, it becomes different because they've got a negotiation with their boss. They're under price pressure, there's a separate negotiation. If you don't cut the price, you have to equip them to go back to their boss and justify it to not not because they like you, not because you've always been for them in the past cuz that's the

46:43past. People are now worried about their future. You could have been great to me in the past. If I get fired tomorrow, it doesn't matter how you help me in the past. What's going to keep me from getting fired tomorrow? Long-term profitability. uh if you as a supplier are difficult to replace and expensive, how expensive is it going to be to replace you? How long it's going to take

47:09them to find somebody? If your product is a fit, what you're giving them, you got to tailor it to them. And if they have a if they have a real problem with price, it's not the price, it's what's being delivered and how. And you got to find out what's how they want it delivered. They may want to have it delivered in a

47:30way that actually makes you more money. They may want to have it delivered in a way that's actually provides more security and stability for them. So that's why you gota you gota explore the value issue because if if what they want would make it more profitable to you but you don't know what it is if they don't

47:52tell you. So I'm going to use your phrase again. Create the space for them to be honest with you. And then they go back to the boss. Then they're going to say, "Look, do you realize how expensive it's going to be to replace them? Do you remember how long it took us to find them in the first place? We went for six months without a vendor. What's going to happen to us if we go for another six months

48:15without searching for their replacement? What happens to us if their replacement is worse than they are? Then we got another 6 months on top of that. Now all of a sudden the person you work for the that they work for is worried about all these losses. No, no, no, no. We we got to keep them. We can't afford to lose them. You know, your job was to ask for a discount. You asked it, but they're so valuable to us. We have to have the

48:42long-term business. I was talking two, three years ago to a guy who uh used to work for SpaceX. And SpaceX is a tough buyer. They're either going to push you down on price, they're going to push you down on terms, or they're going to buy you. And if they buy you, you don't have to worry about it anymore because they're the boss. and SpaceX, they buy a lot of companies, but the particular vendor they're they're looking for, he's got a mandate to get a discount from the

49:12vendor and it is a massive discount. Now, he knows if he gets this discount, it's going to put them out of business. So, what he does is he goes to them, he starts talking to them about the long-term value if SpaceX is signed on as a customer for the next 10 years as opposed to just the next 12 months. And as soon as they started talking about a long-term relationship, his boss eased up on him on the discount they were demanding of him cuz he went back to him and said, "I got these guys locked in. Replacing them is going to be very expensive. Remember how long it took us to get them in the

49:51first place?" And so as soon as I sw shifted into a long-term conversation, the discount that he was demanding was far less. And then because he was promising a long-term guarantee of SpaceX being a long-term customer, they actually didn't mind giving the discount that they did give cuz they locked in a long-term customer. So the challenge is to shift to from short-term to long-term and get both sides to think about what the real value of the long-term relationship is and the losses that will be triggered if the relationship is

50:29lost. Yeah. And on a tactical level, you would use things like mirroring, labeling, saying, "Hey, uh, it seems like we have a value situation here or the value is not where you need it to be or uh, similar things that you would say or any other, you know, really tactical things that when hey, we need to cut on cut the price, Chris, we need to cut the

50:51price. We need to do something here." So, what what else would you Well, labels are usually the best because labels land the best. It's either going to be a label or or a question. But if I want them to think about what it's going to cost them to replace me, I'm going to actually some people call this reverse psychology. But I would just say it seems like I'm it's

51:09pretty easy to replace me. You're not threatening to quit, but you're making them think about what happens if they either drive you away or drive you out of business. Call out the elephant in the room. Find out if it is easy to replace you. Yeah, it isn't. but gently seems like must be pretty easy to replace us. That's doesn't back them into a corner. It makes them think in a non- accusatory way and consider the fallout. They are not going to tell

51:48you it is if it isn't. They're just not going to. They're going to hesitate. you know, they'd get a tremendous advantage if they would just go, "Yeah, it is, but they're they're not going to." How do you know that's going to work in the big conversation? It gets back to what we were talking about earlier. Got to learn to call out those kind of

52:13labels in everyday interactions. Yeah. Use it, practice it. Yeah. Get comfortable with it. And again the delivery like your your tone of voice your was like um seems like that yeah we are really easy to easy to replace for you right like not like hey it's easy to replace us right you know you don't say it like that well don't even say right cuz that's still fishing for the yes just throw it out as an observation seems like it's pretty easy to replace us seems like it's it's it's pretty easy to replace us

52:48yeah and just I mean labels work magic. Yeah. Now I know that because I've done it enough times. Nobody's going to know it until they've done it enough. Yeah. And then you've done it enough. You you've practiced your tone of voice. Then that really important conversation. Your gut instinct is telling you it's going to work to that uh that it reminds me of a Chris Vosk quote. I think I wrote it down somewhere here. Yeah, I think I have it in my head already. It says something like it's a it's not a sin to not get the deal, but it's a a sin to take long

53:23time for getting a for not getting the deal. Yeah. For getting a bad deal. Yeah. Well, either not getting a deal or getting a bad deal. Yeah. Yeah. And we're having a really uh important conversation with a couple of people that were doing training for yesterday because bad deals are expensive. A dollar from a bad deal on the top line of revenue

53:46is not a dollar in profit. At best, it's probably 20 cents. Because the a bad deal is so difficult to implement that all the implementation is very expensive and that dollar loses value right away. It drop it drops by 50 cents right away and it may drop to at least 20 cents. Now a dollar on a good deal really holds its value all the way through the organization. Dollar on a good deal might be worth a dollar on

54:19profit. And your boss is really focused on profit. Revenue is nice, but if the revenue is expensive, the profit ain't there. And they can't keep the lights on. can't keep you employed. So, you got to understand a bad deal is an expensive deal. No matter what no matter what the gross revenue is, it's

54:43going to be expensive to implement. Yeah. So, it's a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal. Like in in the sales context, it's still easier said than done because if you are a sales rep, you know, you have a sales quota and you you better take the bad deal to, you know, have something to show, hey, I've closed something. It's maybe it's not good for the company, but it's good for you that you can at least close something even if the deal is bad in the big bigger picture for the company, you know. So, it's also an interest of a conflict of interest

55:14between the sales leader or the company and the sales rep who maybe has the pressure to perform and that's why he he's willing to take maybe a bad deal than not the deal at all, you know, and that's everybody's reaction. And the reality of the universe is the fewer deals that it takes you a long time to do, the more deals that it takes you a short

55:40time to do show up. Now, until you feel that, you don't believe it. You you just don't believe it. And every business person talks about every successful business person talks about the moment they started saying no their business accelerated. What were they saying no to? They were saying no to bad deals because a bad deals create a lot of

56:06drag. Even on salespeople, if it takes you, a bad deal takes you at least twice as long, if not five times as long to negotiate, to settle more visits to the to the customer, a lot of your time, bigger chunks of your quarter. And to step out of that is to step into the unknown.

56:33And the other deals start to show up. And it's so many salespeople, so many business people, but you see it everywhere. You know, as soon as I started saying no to stuff, our business picked up. We made more money. We had more deals. What were they saying no to? They were saying no to bad customers, bad deals, bad situations. And then suddenly good things started to show up. Now, when you're a salesperson and you've never

57:03done that before, you don't believe it. You know, you're like, I don't care if it happened to him. That was their life. It ain't my life. Crossing that threshold is scary. Be willing to accept the hypothesis. So many business people, as soon as they started saying no to bad deals, they became more and more and more successful. You, as a salesperson, will

57:30too. But till you take that step, it just seems like it's a pit and there are tigers down there waiting to eat me as soon as I step into it. Yeah. Yeah. And what I what I mean what I say to my fellow salespeople colleagues or in my sales trainings because I'm doing sales trainings um is that everyone has 24 hours. You have 24 hours in your wallet. Maybe you work I 8 9 10 11 hours. But what do you do with those 8 n 10 11 hours? Do you spend it on deals that are dragging through our sales pipeline for from quarter to quarter or do you spend the time with

58:07elves? I think you lucrative and fun elves and elves, right? You spend your time with easy, lucrative and fun opportunities that maybe take less time to close. They are bigger. They are more profitable. They give you more energy back than you are trying to trying to, you know, ride every horse, ride every dead horse even. you distribute your time equally across all the opportunities in your pipeline and uh and every minute you lose with those bad deals, you lose time that you could invest into opportunities that are much

58:39better qualified. Exactly. Yeah. So that's I think that's the thing. There are two things I would like to uh discuss quickly at the end. I was wondering about two things when I was preparing for this interview because I mean you've been uh in a SWAT team, then you've been on a um I think a suicide hotline, then you changed to the FBI and

59:01doing the negotiation for the FBI. I seem schizophrenic, huh? Now, now you're now you're doing your your own thing. You read read uh written the book that is sold one and a half two and a half million times by now. I think two two and a half million uh globally it's 5 million. you are traveling around. You're uh sitting with me on this podcast. You know, you have so many things going on. Where do you get your the passion and the energy to still do the things you do on a daily basis? Oh, this is so much fun. I mean, it's just fun. It's I'm intrigued by it. We're

59:33constantly learning new application and new ideas. And so, what we're doing is constantly evolving. Yeah. I've had people say, "Hey, you know, I I fed your book into chat GPT and we're using it to guide our all our negotiations and we're making so much more money." And I'm okay with that because we've learned so much since the

59:55book came out. Between my core team, we come up with a new idea, a new application, and a new way to refine what we're doing probably every single month. So, that's fun. We haven't We're still on the adventure. We're still discovering stuff. We're still finding new ways to apply it, finding new ways to help people. I over just over the last three days, I've got several new ideas of how to make our methodology better. And so if it was stale, if it was written in ink, I was very big fan of Jim Camp and his book Start with No. Jim was a friend, worked with Jim when I was with the FBI

1:00:33and afterwards. Jim wouldn't change a word. He felt his methodology was written in stone and even if he thought of a more evolved application, he wouldn't even allow it to be more evolved. It had to stay the same. And it was very frustrating for the people that worked for him and his clients. And then of course, if it never changes, if I talked to you last year, why do I

1:01:04got to talk to you this year? But we're constantly discovering this stuff. The reason for the companion book, Jonathan Smith brought a couple of ideas to us and I thought, "Oh man, we've actually been doing that for a while, but I didn't know what we were doing, which meant I didn't know how to

1:01:24explain how to do it." And so Jonathan cleared up some application of empathy for us because of an idea that he threw out. So that was new. So, it's it's it's all of it is a new adventure. It's fun and we're helping more people constantly make more money, but making money is the secondary

1:01:46benefit. Mhm. Actually enjoying life more is the primary benefit and then as a result you make more money. I 100% if you say it, I 100% believe you saying that that you have fun because it seems like you have genuinely fun doing this. It's fun. Yeah, it's that's I mean I think this is really if you have achieved in your stage of life something hey I'm really like to do what I do that's that's the ultimate goal right yeah people ask me what I do for fun my live you know what I am everything that I do for fun where do you go on vacation what do you do to get away I don't got

1:02:21to get away I'm having a ball you know my my job doesn't suck the life out of me I have purpose there a lot of people you know that working in companies deliver great service, but there's no purpose to it. And I, you know, I'll use the example of toilet paper. And there's a business philosophy that, yeah, take over a company that's not sexy and make it really profitable and make a lot of money. Cool,

1:02:48toilet paper, pencils. You can't get I, you know, we distribute toilet paper. So, they need a vacation. They got to go skiing in Austria. to get away. I don't got I don't got to I'll go skiing in Austria while I'm there for conference. So yeah, I don't have to get away from my life. I love my life.

1:03:13Yeah. To the to the point of purpose. And that's actually the last question I wanted to ask you. Maybe it closes closes off the circle. I want to steal steal the question a little bit from Jay from the podcast, but I'm curious how you will respond to to that or your answer is you said to Jay that the purpose that you have is really kind of making the world a better place. I think some something that context you

1:03:36said. I'm wondering how negotiation plays a role for you to making the world a better place because the world's problems are really solved by business. What do I mean by that? I'm reading I'm reading the book Chip Wars about the rise of the semiconductor industry principally in Southeast Asia and there's a great line in there and I say the US military lost the war in Vietnam and the chip industry

1:04:02won the peace. Governments don't win the peace. And you could easily argue that they don't actually win wars. Maybe the other side just lost more than they did. Everybody loses in a war. But nobody wins the peace. And so once the US government got out of the way, we got to fight communism and all these countries can't allow the spread of communism. And there's a big fear. And you know, thousand tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people died as

1:04:33a result. And the com the countries that were looking at communism is because the life was so bad, they're like, why not go with the communists? cuz as of right now I'm I'm living in poverty in in squalor and in many cases our alternatives especially for women in Southeast Asia you know you stay on a family farm and squalor or get sold into you might get sold into human trafficking

1:05:05because it was the only option. So they start the chip industry and now they got factories and from the western standard oh you know these are sweat shops uh these factories you know long hours well the long hours in a factory beats starving to death and slowly the economy improved and it got better and you go to Vietnam now and they got a thriving economy the south is very entrepreneurial the north is very industrial they're working together make phenomenal things happen once these governments got out of the way and the chip industry and other industries collaborated and started bringing people better lives. So better negotiations create better outcomes and

1:05:53capitalism is the ism that has lifted more people out of poverty than any other ism. Now that doesn't mean it can't be better but it's it's working better than anything else. and fundamental driver in capitalism in the marketplace is negotiation. Mic drop really I I am I really believe that uh thanks for the explanation. So what's some of the new stuff that you

1:06:15guys have going on at this one? There's two things. Um the first thing that people can take advantage of right now we just started this year something called the black swan negotiation community because there is a global community of people that want to negotiate with each other. You know, the book has done very well globally. Uh, so it's sold in

1:06:35in over 40 languages. And to me, that says there are a lot of people out there that want to negotiate with each other rather than against each other. So, where do you go to practice on a regular basis to talk to people to think like you to get better at the skills? Well, we started this thing called the Black Swan Negotiation Community. And it's free. Um, uh, one of my, uh, people on my team likes to say

1:06:56it's free.99, but it's free. And so you go to our website blackswanltd.com blanltd.com and you should see a popup right away asking you to join the community and you can learn the skills online from us. Take training courses. You should you should take the master class. Master class is great. You should buy the book.

1:07:22Where do you go to practice? especially if you're still not quite comfortable practicing in your real life where you join the community and you go in there and you practice with each other. Sometimes the instructors are in there, but the real thing is for you to find the people that think like you do about this and practice with them. And it doesn't matter what your skill level is. I talk about this guy Michael Periente all the time. Michael Periente is extremely successful defense attorney

1:07:54in the United States. When the pandemic started, Michael was going broke and he was concerned he would have to shut down his law practice. He found Never Split the Difference. He found the master class. He started applying it in his work. He sent me a picture the other day of the Mercedes that he bought because of the skills. He's doing really well right now because even from your defense attorney, you want somebody that uses empathy with you. Why am I talking about Michael? Michael goes into the community twice a week to practice. He

1:08:28knows that the skills are perishable. He's very successful. He flew me from Vegas to Los Angeles a year ago on a private plane out of gratitude. Michael practices. He finds other people in the community to practice with twice a week. Doesn't cost anything. Got to get your practice in. So, the Black Swan community is where you go to practice. And then at the fir in the first part of 26 of the upcoming year, two of my colleagues, Jonathan Smith and Derek Gone, we will be publishing the companion book to Never Split the Difference. And it's

1:09:09called Fight Less, Win More. and I'm doing the forward to the book. In the introduction, I'm introd introducing Derek Gaunt, who's a head of coaching for the Black Swan Group. Derek and I have been together for over 20 years. I wouldn't be sitting in front of you here today if it wasn't for Derek Gaunt. He's been a partner. He's brilliant. Jonathan Smith is a business colleague. He's actually our EOS coach. Entrepreneurial operating

1:09:36system. EOS is how we run the company. Jonathan taught it to us. He's teaching us EOS in a pandemic and we're teaching him negotiation and he's like, "How are you guys raising your prices in a pandemic?" You know, how you getting paid what you're worth? And we explained it to him. He decided he wanted to learn it. Now, besides teaching us EOS, Jonathan is also one of my trainers and my coaches and he and

1:10:04Derek are superstars. So, they're finally putting out a book. Again, it's a companion book to Never Split the Difference. If you've read Never Split the Difference, you should buy this book. If you haven't, and it'll it'll be out in January. If you haven't read Never Split the Difference, then buy them both because they they they go together. It's like, you know, the right hand and the left hand. They work they work well together. So, the two big things are join the community. Now, the book is not going to be out until

1:10:34January. Join the community, practice, get better, get ready for the book to come out. We'll link down the Black Swan community in the show notes. Perfect. So, everybody, join the community. Get better. We know negotiation is a perishable skill. We need to practice it. You can practice it in the community. Yep. And it was a pleasure meeting you in New

1:10:58York. Yeah. Thank you guys for coming to New York. came to my favorite city in the world. I got a lot of cities I like. I like this one the most. Next time we we meet you in Austria on this on the on the ski tracks. I'd love it. Was a pleasure. My pleasure. Thanks.