# The Freedom Ladder: Financial Independence Through Products – Justin Jackson

Channel: Rob Walling
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrwBbqQ-WU8
Duration: 44 min
Language: English
Words: 7413
Transcript page: https://viewrankai.com/tools/youtube-transcript/xrwBbqQ-WU8

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[0:00] [Music] [Music]

[0:16] before I get started I gotta say something to all of you and that is I love you guys I was at growth before this and how many of you have been here since Saturday oh my gosh I have this thing about Vegas like the first 48 hours are amazing and there's like a cliff it's like it's really bad out of that but you know I I went through the growth conference and I was just tired it felt like okay the conference is done man I'm just exhausted and then you all came in and you got like energy and you're hungry to learn and you're like here like you're in it to win it

[0:57] and way better than those growth folks by the way like way way better they're all like jaded and stuff and you guys are like come on you got you got energy I love it so thanks for that today I'm gonna give you five tactics and four principles for achieving independence through products and if while I'm talking if you want to say hi on Twitter if I say something you want to tweet it that's my twitter handle em I Justin if you want to know what that stands for you can ask me in the QA and this is my official sounding bio I got started in sass in 2008 worked for different

[1:43] startups eventually became the product manager at sprint Li you might have heard one of my podcasts product people or mega maker you might have seen something I've read but the truth is is I'm just an idiot that Mike and Rob found on the internet and by the end of this talk I want you guys to think like man if this guy can make it work I can make it work because I'm just a jackass if I'm good at anything it's just being loud basically so another thing I do understand though is I understand where you're at right now you're here because you're not satisfied with the

[2:27] way things are you want your life to be better and you know for me this was all about sitting in traffic one hour into the office one hour back anyone sit in traffic right now everyone have to drive to the office and it killed me it killed me I'm in traffic and I'm you know like going to the office and I just hate it I hate driving cars I would way rather ride a bike and I just like man I wish I wasn't here how could my life be better and I think for a lot of us it's kind of like we know life can be better but we have no

[3:07] imagination for what that might look like right so it's like we know there's a better you know there's a great peak out there but we don't know like what that looks like and then sometimes what happens for me it was like listening to Rob and Mike in my car I discovered that people could make an independent income from digital products and those people became my hero right Jayson freed and I was like okay that's I got to be like them and the question we all ask of course is how the hell did they get up there right how do they do that how can I do that how do you go from no

[3:52] idea no audience no I no audience no idea no revenue to quitting your job is there anyone in here that wants to know how to do that is there anyone okay make some noise you guys want to do that is that we wanted it oh yeah all right so let's start with my journey and again I'm just an idiot I'm a jackass on the internet like this is just my story but maybe there's some things you can learn from it so I started in software late 2008 28 years old and I had to start at the bottom I had worked in nonprofits before that and this guy called me and gave me a job but

[4:30] I worked at customer support answering the phones but that year I discovered two things that would change my life the first was getting real by 37signals any who's read this this blew my mind just gave me this vision for like you can build this stuff you can build something that helps people and you can deliver it through the internet and they'll pay you for it if you haven't read this yet it's still online you can get it and download it for free man that air conditioning is so freaking loud hey it's like up here it's not as loud but out there it's like it's loud and the

[5:11] second thing was startups for the rest of us I heard I found it somehow I had two hours every day and I heard Robin Mike talking about this stuff and it gave me an imagination for what was possible for the first time in my life I realized it could be different you can make an independent income selling stuff on the Internet you guys remember when you had that thought like wow this is possible and maybe that thought is what brought you here I had two big obstacles in my way no time how many of you guys feel like you got no time all right how come I had no time I have four kids

[5:53] I've 14 year-old daughter a nine-year-old son all right no fourteen-year-old daughter 11 year-old son I skipped one nine-year-old son and a 7 year-old son when we found out we were gonna have three boys I booked a vasectomy that day it was like okay I'm going in and this is what my schedule looks like you know looked like get the kids to school 7:00 a.m. drive to the office it aid 8:00

[6:19] a.m. work from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. eat dinner 6:00 p.m. help the kids with homework and chores maybe have a little bit of time to talk to my wife and then just collapse and in an exhausted heap at the end of the day how many of you have a schedule like this right now yeah it's hard so I had two things to overcome number one I needed to find more time and number two I need to make some money to support my family I was the primary income earner for the family and I needed money I couldn't just quit my job and and have no money right so

[6:56] first I did some things to try to find more time tried waking up early stand up late you know I tried the garyvee program for a while where he's like just stay up till your eyeballs bleed like that's bad advice I was working on the bus working during my lunch hour what worked took four years to do this I got a remote job that's what worked because when I got the remote job it eliminated the two-hour commute and gave me some time to work on some stuff on the side that would be another good question for QA how do you get a remote job and in that time I

[7:41] started a podcast with my friend Kyle Foxx Kyle's here where's Kyle right there give this guy hand right now because cut Kyle probably hates that I did that but it was Kyle's idea to start the podcast and if he and he really pursued me he's like we got to do this and I was like I don't know I just got some free time and he's the one that made me do it basically and we were both product managers and so we thought okay we're both product managers we're both trying to build great products for our employers let's talk to the best product people in the world and so we started

[8:17] interviewing people and we started building an audience of product people I originally we thought it would be product managers but eventually it was like people like you people that were interested in building a product themselves and around the same time I started a newsletter people were interested in you know whenever I wrote about products so started a newsletter and this is the key part so up till now building a little audience you know this is the next part the important part I noticed people were asking some of the same questions over and over again here's an example of one how can I keep myself motivated as a solo founder and I

[9:00] thought okay I'm gonna dig into this bit cuz it kept coming up people would email me about it just it so I'm like okay I'm gonna dig into this and I reached out to patio 11 and Rob on Twitter I'm like hey it's still the founders do you guys have some sort of support group or and patio said yeah we have a campfire room where we hang out all day it's like ice and other founders and an interesting thing happened Nate cottony replied and said man I would like to join one of these campfire rooms and it was this and other things you know I was like man I'm noticing a

[9:30] trend here so I formed a hypothesis people want solo founders want a support group so that they can stay motivated and I kind of sat on this for a while I'd realize this and I'm like man there's probably I need here but just sat on it then one day I had a bad day at work it's angry how many of you guys have ever worked on a project at work that never shipped man that sucks you know we worked on this feature forever and just wasn't shipping so I came home that day just pissed off and I said you know what I'm gonna do today tonight is I'm gonna create something

[10:13] and launch it and get someone to pay me tonight that's what I'm gonna do and I appropriately called the product just [ __ ] do it a support group for solo founders bootstrappers and anyone launching their own thing and this was just a completely like it was a campfire room you guys remember campfire you know I'm talking about it's like group chat do you seriously not remember campfire okay there's like some really young people over here they're like I don't know what that is and this the first spots sold out in an hour I actually made a mistake I only was going to open it to ten

[10:54] people but I didn't think they would sell that fast and I went to sleep and it was just manual I'm just like turning on stripe billing and turning it off oh man and that turns off it's so good and I forgot to turn it off and I woke up and there was 35 members that were there and it was real simple I built it you know HTML MailChimp camp fire obviously stripe member flow for the billing and I kept working on it on the side it was a side project kept iterating on it this is what it looks like today it's been it's evolved into product

[11:27] people club my wife said you can't keep calling it just [ __ ] do it like let's see it we gotta have something a little more appropriate it was especially hard during like kids career days you know my my kid's life and you know the stack has evolved a little bit but as a side project something I just built while as a product manager I it's earned over seventy three thousand dollars since I watched it and you know very little custom code created by one person me built on the side but it provided real value this is one of the early members Robert from let's workshop we've had a

[12:10] lot of Sam you know he like was an early member a user on board Ryan Hoover was an early member and so it provided real value for people and since then I just decided to keep launching projects some of you guys know I had a little problem with this for a while it was like started building things and launching them you know I had a lot of you know pissed off days at work and as I was launching these things over the years to got traction some people asked me like why don't you keep making a hundred things a year well it's cuz ii got traction the first

[12:47] was marketing for developers this is a course it's hosted on coach they're sponsoring this and yeah this is my first kind of big hit launch this again just listening to people i got a lot of i had a lot of developers emailing me saying i built this app how do i get customers and so this was a response to that and my second one i just launched this tiny marketing wins these are the two that put braces on my 14 year old space basically and i gradually built up the site income until last year just last year january 1st 2016 i was able to go full time just

[13:32] selling the things I make with computers this is what my side income looked like over the years in the income 2012 and actually if I if we could go back further there was a point where it was a dollar and then it became you know whatever a hundred dollars and then eventually 2012 10,000 then 20,000 and 40,000 then 66,000 and then last year was 150,000 and this is amazing to me that I get to now earn a full-time income I get to provide for my family just from making things with computers and if I could compare that frustrated person who is a stuck in traffic and I

[14:19] literally thought while I was stuck in traffic I thought I'm never gonna be we're robbing my car like that's never gonna happen for me it just seemed way way too far away but if we look at the if we look at can I go back if we look at this it was just like gradual over time eventually it happened and like I said I'm an idiot like you could you guys can do this way faster than me all right let's take a little break how many of you okay how many of you have never made a dollar on the Internet put up your hands you've never made a

[14:53] dollar on the Internet okay so you know keep them up okay say come on okay okay so I never made a dollar in the Internet I'm gonna give you you're gonna make your first dollar one of you is gonna make your first dollar from me someone on the Internet I got one red-hot American dollar right here um and you also get a copy of my book jolt this is the only copy I ever printed it's like full-color cost me $49 so this is what I want to do I want you guys to guess what socks I'm wearing so the first person that can guess what kind of socks I'm wearing I'll give you

[15:28] a hint it's one of my favorite bands who knows no no anyone have an idea yes sorry Iron Maiden six six six number awesome okay who is that over there drew all right drew you you've won this should we pass it back with that will that even work okay trust exercise here we go you ever drew all right Iron Maiden socks I'll show up see you guys later okay so first before we move on too far we need to find you guys more time who needs more time again yeah okay here we go we're gonna get you guys more time this can be helpful you guys you guys

[16:16] need this part okay here's some ideas take a one week sabbatical from work to focus on your project call this a week a hustle you think about like when I'm at a conference I'm getting nothing done right and when you go to a conference for work they don't bug you they don't look like they hold all your calls you know they don't care if you've you're not responding to email or whatever it's like you're kind of gone why not just replicate that and do something for your project so take a sabbatical and focus on your project another idea is to wake up early put in an hour before work work

[16:49] from home one day a week so talk to Josh duty about salary negotiation but when your boss comes to you and says hey we want to give you a raise say well how about instead of a raise or in addition to a race you also let me take Friday's off right you can negotiate that stuff get yourself one extra day and get a remote job that works do all right are you guys ready for tactics are you ready okay I know you've been sitting for a while here we go tactics number one choose your audience the the big mistake people make is start with an idea when they should be

[17:30] starting with people and this is the question I like to answer what group are you best equipped to serve what group what do they look like here's some examples of some groups you know parents with kids and diapers folks starting a podcast freelance designers f-sharp developers any extra development it oh yeah that's your customer right there 40-plus joggers commune now these are all example markets but good markets have characteristics certain characteristics they're easy to reach there's existing marketing channels to get to them right they're highly motivated to solve their own problems this is why actually programmers are an amazing customer to have you're highly motivated to solve

[18:16] your own problems ability and willingness to pay I think it also should be a group you're excited to serve so my old joke is that when I was getting all these emails there's like a disproportionate amount of people developers that want to build apps for real estate agents and I always say like do you like hanging out with real estate agents like you want to go to real estate conferences like you want to party with those guys well if the answer's no then don't make them your customer and it also helps if it's a group you're personally connected to another way to frame this is where am I

[18:51] already being paid for my skills and expertise there's been a bunch of speakers that have kind of alluded to this but let me give you an example this Darien rose Brooke he's a product people member and he is a designer working in the banking industry so what who could he focus on well you can go vertical or you can go horizontal and this is what I mean he goes every day to work in the banking industry he can see what makes his boss pull out his hair he can see the gaps he can see the struggles and if you go to work every day if you have a

[19:28] job and you can look at your industry you can say okay what where where are the opportunities what are people struggling with here and those are often the seed seeds for good ideas for products you can also go horizontal right your peers so Darien probably has something to say to a junior designer may be a designer joins and they've only used Photoshop but Darien no sketch and you can teach them sketch write your target market should be a group you're already connected to you really helps how many of you are consultants or freelancers alright I got and just for you guys just for you I prepared something just for you this is

[20:13] a case study my buddy Francois up in Canada has a consulting business where he serves Shopify stores he builds Shopify apps and you know websites and as he was serving clients he noticed that people kept coming in to him with this request and to me as someone that doesn't serve that customer this idea sounds completely stupid but this is what it is is the customer would say hey we have an Instagram page we want you to suck that Instagram page into Shopify create a gallery a gallery reproduce it and then we want you to make all those images shoppable like you know put a link on them so people can

[20:57] buy and then we'll put a little link on our Instagram file that links to that page not to me this is like weird like why would someone want this is totally clunky right but he launched it two years ago and it's going crazy this is now his full-time income he doesn't do consulting anymore and this is what he does now just he launched the web app that solves that problem so freelancers consultants you have a built-in advantage you already have a superpower you're already being paid for your skills and expertise you're already connected to customers that are paying you you can observe patterns what requests come up over and over again and

[21:42] when you launch like when he launched he already had 510 customers that wanted it right it's a pretty sweet deal all right the next one is the one everyone wants to skip research your audience Everett no one's gonna do this I know you're not going to do this but this is the most important thing how do you find good product ideas there are good product ideas the ones you have at 2:00 a.m. in the morning that are completely disconnected from reality after you've been out drinking no you need to hit a nerve that makes people say shut up and take my money right and the only way to do this is to

[22:25] observe people that's the only way to do this you want to understand the progress customers are trying to make and what struggles stand in their way this is why you do research you guys are falling asleep on me a little bit I need you guys okay pay attention to this next part everyone look at me don't look at my slides people buy products for one reason only to make their lives better I'm going to say it again people buy products for one reason only to make their lives better people do not care about your feelings they don't care how hard you worked on it they don't care if

[23:17] it's clean code or dirty code people buy products from one reason only to make their lives better now I've got some swag here I got some stickers and some if you guys tweet this I'll look at it I will give you stickers and notebook I'll give you a bunch of stuff to take home look at some souvenirs for your kids this is the most important thing I've ever discovered because when before I thought it was all about me and my idea and the truth is it's not about me the kind of the the position of a product person is an inward its outward how can I make people's lives better I'm

[23:57] gonna give you a case study jewelry store so instead of tiny marketing wins members can ask me questions it's like a reddit style forum and this guy was like I'm in the jewelry industry how do I figure out what jewelry customers want and these kind of questions kind of pissed me off a little bed so I grabbed my camera I put on my secret agent sunglasses and I snuck into a jewelry store and videotaped people buying jewelry and this is on my youtube channel you can find it you can watch the whole thing my wife was not happy about this one either but this is what I observe just going

[24:35] into this jewelry and you know no or Canada like this is what I observed 90% of the products in the store were for women there's like rings and some watches for men but 90% of the stuff is for women a hundred percent of the people in the store were men and they weren't buying for themselves they're only making purchases for women how many of you guys have ever been in jewelry store it is the most uncomfortable experience ever right you're just walking around like I don't know what the [ __ ] to get like I don't know what's your ring size I have no [ __ ] idea and what I'm trying to do

[25:15] is find the answers to these questions where are they now where do they want to be what's their dream of a better life and what stands in their way here I'll illustrate it like this you know they're over here where are they now who are these people over on the other side what is their dream how could their life be better and then finally what obstacles stand in their way now again the job of a product person is to help the customer overcome the obstacles and get to that dream of a better life that's your whole job that's your only job so again going back to the

[26:01] Dooley example where are they now there's just an uncomfortable dude walking around a jewelry store right they're anxious they're like nervous where do they want to be what's the superpower that's another way to put it what's the superpower they want they want to be the impressive romantic boyfriend that's what you want right if you've ever bought jewelry for a significant other that's your dream and what stands in their way they don't know [ __ ] about jewelry or romance right observe your audience wherever they hang out and to do this to do this research this research you're not going to do I know you got it you

[26:41] can do it online there's all these places you can do it offline this would be another good question for QA is if you have a specific group you're thinking of and you're like I know how to reach them I can I'll help you with that third step create a hypothesis so this is the hypothesis I would do for the jewelry store free me from the anxiety of wondering what to get my girlfriend so that I can be an impressive romantic boyfriend now I spent ten minutes in this jewelry store right if I was really gonna do this I would have to go there every single day

[27:11] you know I might get kicked out after a while this is a guy with sunglasses shows up every single day but you'd have to like observe people every single day for weeks but I think this is actually pretty bang on because if you look at what the jewelry store how they advertise this is what they're doing right what's the dream of a better life well that picture right that's what you want when you buy jewelry how do you help them overcome the obstacles well you give them a gift guide for your girlfriend right this is also an example of a good tiny product it's not really a

[27:45] product but this is a gift guide for men that want to buy jewelry for their girlfriends it's a great little tiny thing a great way to test out an idea so I have time for the few more examples let's workshop lets you send they send leads to freelancers here's the hypothesis for that free me from the anxiety of finding new leads so that I have a steady stream of clients like I said it could also be framed as a superpower so you've got MailChimp what super power does MailChimp give to their subscribers well help me to send a better email so that I can sell more

[28:22] stuff sell more stuff is the superpower there's some magic words for hypotheses I got these from Allan Clement jobs to be done he has a book called when coffee and kale compete you should get it give me help me free me make the take away the you know equip me to these are the magic words you want to use when you're forming a hypothesis and again this is kind of structure help me with this obstacle so that I can achieve this dream all right there's only two more steps create a tiny product to test your hypothesis this has been a theme this year this didn't used to be a theme but now

[29:04] it's like all this we're we're aligned on this create something small right what's the smallest product you could create that would disprove your hypothesis don't go out and try to prove it try to disprove it let me give you an example from user onward you guys have seen user on board right he started with just saying okay I'm gonna do these tear downs right here's this tiny little product and at the end of it he has a place to put in your email address this would be the hypothesis right but the idea of what Samuel did there was he put something out into the world to see if he could

[29:45] get conversion and good conversion is Isla an email address to start and then some dollars so he was getting thousands of email addresses at the end of those tear downs and then eventually he started getting dollars he launched a book and was able to now earn an independent income from user onboarding from tear downs this has already been covered here's some tiny product ideas I'm going to reiterate some other advice which is to start with a workshop and the reason is that almost every human struggle it doesn't matter what you're thinking about right now you've got a big idea for a big app it can be solved

[30:22] manually through teaching and again challenge me during Q&A if I have time I'll try to come up with some examples for your idea but if you don't believe me believe these guys Basecamp you know that everyone's ideal business to have this is how they started 2003 doing workshops before they launch space camp they were doing workshops on how they work their process they were teaching if that worked for Basecamp that can work for you guys right and then the other question is and this is scary I know if you can't get five people to show up at a workshop how are you gonna get hundreds of people to sign up for

[31:02] software and one reason I like local workshops and I want you guys to feel the pain I want you to feel the pain I want you to fail a little bit I want you to I want you to show up in an event let you put on and have no one show up and here's why because you guys are your problem is that not that you're your problem is that you're not failing enough you're not trying enough this is quote from Derek Siver's basically start small and then the last step if the feedback is good iterate so if you actually do this if you actually follow

[31:43] this process what are you gonna learn what are you gonna learn if you actually launch something tiny if you go rent out a room at a library and do a workshop on vim what are you gonna learn how hard is it to find customers did I hit a nerve did I identify their number one struggle how hard is it to get people to pay maybe do the first one for free then you do another one that's 20 bucks and how hard is it to get people to pay how satisfied were people with your solution and finally do I like the customers everyone always get they're like running

[32:17] around looking for a great business idea they don't stop to think like do I even like these people don't want to get emails and phone calls from them from the rest of my life you know if the answers are all sums up then keep iterating and this is what I mean by iterating let's say you sell an excel sheet for $19 well you keep working on it leveling up until maybe it can become a web app that you sell for $39 a month if you start with a local workshop that's free and then you make it 99 bucks well maybe eventually that could become an online course that's $1.99 so these

[32:49] are the steps I got a little bit of time left I got 17 minutes on the clock and what I wanted to do before I laughed was give you like the biggest lessons I've learned and they're kind of squishy I know like micro comps all about tactics but these are just like kind of bigger picture things cuz I don't care you guys still awake enough you are okay all right here we go principles number one your personal context is important love this thread from reddit this wasn't asking me anything with Jason freed and this guy's saying hey do you think it's reasonable for someone with a full-time job and a

[33:30] Emily to start a small business on the side without negatively impacting their performance at work or the quality of their family life and Jason's answer was I'm the wrong person to ask because when I started base camp I was a single idiot you know your personal context is important and this is actually we all have heroes like Jason Fried's one of my heroes but don't try to be like your hero their life is completely different like Jason is completely different than me his life is completely different you've got to embrace your personal context and that looks like this your family situation married kids you know that matters career experience financial

[34:12] situation if you're paying off a bunch of debt maybe it's not the best time to launch a business yet personality type skills and expertise personal health where you're at now will determine the type of product you launch and how long it will take and that's okay it really is it's okay if it takes you a little bit longer you are completely different than me I'm completely different than you embrace your personal situation whatever it is number two momentum is everything this is what I was trying to say before people who stand still don't make progress and the the thing I see people doing is they're just waiting for the

[34:56] right moment you know they're just sitting on the sidelines waiting for the right moment that's not how you get better at product stuff you got to be in motion you have to have momentum you have to do stuff again I think the only reason I've had success is because I'm stupid enough to do stuff and tell people do stuff and tell people right and yeah sure you're in motion you're gonna make mistakes but you also keep moving forward choose your market carefully and everything starts with the group you're going to serve everything starts with the group you're going to serve and to tell you the truth some markets are just

[35:36] better than others doesn't get talked about that much so think about that think about does this market is it big enough does it got a enough money are they motivated to buy things are they motivated to improve their lives and finally again people buy products for one reason only to make their lives better and if you do this if you find a group and you research it and you observe and you figure out a way to make their lives better and then you put it out into the world you they'll pay you for it and you'll earn an independent living from the things you create - and that's

[36:24] all I got Thanks hey thanks so that was excellent it's really great to meet you in person um is the mi Iron Maiden backwards oh okay so everyone always wants to know about my Twitter handle and this is the embarrassing story about it and people have had some good guesses some people think it's Mexican like me Justin some people think it's I used to have that mustache avatar and some people think I think it's mustache impersonator that's not it either Kyle might know I to work for a company called mail-out interactive and when i started on twitter i thought i would only be tweeting stuff for them and so mi is

[37:14] just for mail out interactive a bad company name became part of my online identity and i can't get rid of it so that's why that's what it is mi justin anyone else just put your hands up I'll ask a question then he'll do you agree with patio Levin's approach to don't start a software a company first yeah like that advice have start small I think is the best advice I think you want to start with like I said I everyone always is like in our the workshop I asked how many people would be scared to put on a on low caillois Paz a part of their

[38:00] thing and everyone put up their hand they're like yeah that's scary and that's exactly the point like put on something that scares you that okay I'll tell you guys one story oh yeah last year I after this conference I'd been doing a series of workshops kind of like this in different cities and I attract it like 10 20 30 people to these workshops and I thought okay I'm coming in to Vegas and Vegas has a little bit of a startup scene or had a startup scene I'm gonna offer a workshop for here and then the first day I got here and Michael Sokka who lives here said

[38:39] man you shouldn't be printing out a workshop like Vegas tech scene has imploded on itself like there's no one here and I did a workshop at the I already scheduled it two people showed up I booked a like a hotel room for it and everything this wasn't as a part of the conference I did it like as a another thing two people showed up and I still did it it's okay to like try things and for it to not work it's better for you to try and fail than to just sit on the sidelines and not do anything anything else here we go right here I think you

[39:19] you're the first person at this conference who's talked about workshops and they're kind of I'm like ooh but that sounds good resources where do you suggest people get started what do we should we go read yeah so there's a crowd cast is a good tool for it to tell you the truth I just use YouTube live events so I created an event and make it unlisted and then I just send out invites in my using my email software and people can book and then I send them the secret unlisted you know link there's a little chat and I usually do it like depending on the audience

[39:56] I'll do a Saturday morning 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 45 minutes for me presenting 15 minutes for questions and afterwards I just send them a link to the YouTube video so that's one way to do it for sure anybody else otherwise we'll wrap up here we going here just to follow up to how you actually did the workshop did you have slides or something like that prepared was it just you talking how did you actually give it a presentation yeah yeah so I'll have slides and on YouTube I'll just use you can share your screen so and I'll intersperse it so it'll be like share my screen and then I'll have

[40:42] moments where I just want to be a human being that they can see right but I know some people like my buddy Paul Jarvis does them and often he won't be on screen it'll just be his slides but yeah you can kind of intersperse it and I kind of just follow a slide deck and that actually becomes another resource I give them they can download the slides after to does that help kind of paint the picture yeah one more right here you omitted a lot of spaces in your slides is there a secret story behind that like between words that was just I do my slides and deck set and when we imported

[41:19] them into PowerPoint it didn't it didn't work oh yeah that would have been smart actually I like that idea I like that I like that and we've got time for one more right over here okay

[41:42] hey Justin hey this might come as a pretty weird question I love interacting with people talking to them my fellow attendees here had a great time but on the Internet I'm pretty scared to expose my identity so I do have a Twitter handle probably I have like 10 tweets over say 10 years I deleted my facebook account in 2010 and my presence in Google Plus is very minimal yeah so I don't want to expose my identity whatever you can think of I think that yes software is social but at the same time I think the freemium model scares me because I think that a lot of

[42:22] people get to know a lot of unnecessary stuff about me even without knowing me as a person they make a judgment call yeah so for a person like me let's say come up with a ebook or a software what would you suggest to say you put it out I'm open for criticism fine but sure without using these established venues how do I expose my product or service or offers to other people yeah yeah I mean to be honest that's the one disadvantage of the thing we're suggesting you do is that books and courses are personality based businesses usually right here's a few ideas one is you can still run a local

[43:06] workshop and I you would get tons and tons of information and your technical right and so if you did the scary thing to actually meet some real human beings in real space figure out what their struggles really are where they want to go maybe your next step is building a tiny software product and there's ways to be anonymous right you can focus on SEO right there so there's ways to do it I still think you need the face-to-face time so I would go after like those like I said a workshop it's not like you've trying to be a big internet brand it's just like you getting together with five

[43:41] people in a coffee shop the other actually tip that I didn't mention I think I got mentioned before is just look on meetup calm look on Eventbrite also has a directory and you can just show up as a guest speaker and that even removes more of the barrier right so go observe their problems and then maybe you know offer something technical or you could team up with a jackass like me and I can be the face of your company right so that's the other option cool that is it thanks guys [Applause] you

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