# How to Make $1,000,000 A Month Without A Product - Anthony Sarandrea

Channel: Brett Malinowski
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owsyR7Fb64I
Duration: 1 hr 42 min
Language: English
Words: 23872
Transcript page: https://viewrankai.com/tools/youtube-transcript/owsyR7Fb64I

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[0:00] so we grew a internet marketing agency I was doing a multi-million dollars in revenue and very high margin we ran something in people getting out of credit card debt and I actually like defaulted on bills to understand what it felt like to be a consumer in credit card I wanted to go through the process I wanted to feel how it felt like to be my consumer a bit of a taboo statement one of the the best ways to learn is on someone else's dime I think when we first started we were getting paid like forty dollars a phone call and at its peak we're getting paid 120 a phone call and

[0:29] it was the exact same customer the exact same product exact same person the only difference that happened was my relationship with them I'm gonna hit the guy on LinkedIn borderline stalking him to get in touch with him become friends with him on Instagram I got a front row seats to the Chicago Bears and replying to his stories like this little [ __ ] I would do and I became such good friends I was working on a contract for eight months within two weeks at a contract on my desk after doing that this is the reality where I can actually make more money faster when everyone else is only

[0:53] talking about apps welcome to the wgmi podcast where we talk about the nitty-gritty tactics of underground entrepreneurs the goal of this podcast is that you fully understand their business model and have strategies and tactics that you can immediately Implement in your business so if you enjoy this type of content subscribe to our free newsletter but other than that enjoy the episode all right Anthony sarandria thanks for coming here brother how are you doing today doing great man dude it's good to see you good to see you I am super excited to talk to you today mainly because our not our interests but we work kind of in the same field or

[1:29] you're but you're like the master and so selfishly I think I'm gonna be able to learn a lot from this podcast but if you guys don't know Anthony is a master affiliate marketer Master at driving traffic and Lead gen specifically and now he's pursuing his passion in making music and performing at EDC as a DJ which sorry in and of itself is like the dream find financial success then pursue your passion at the highest level so so much to learn here but first again you know I love asking how much money they make he sold his company to a public company and obviously can't talk about

[1:59] it but he's doing very very well for himself so let's just go ahead and start with affiliate marketing sure and break down specifically could you just kind of high level what is affiliate marketing of course and then maybe talk about like what makes a good affiliate marketing partnership absolutely so we'll start on the advertiser side so you've got a company they could be a direct consumer product uh and that's you that's usually what it is could be business the business as well too but um essentially how it works is companies looking for uh uh a way to generate more sales to their uh to their product or their service or

[2:34] whatever that is and oftentimes it's a really um low risk for them because it's commission only sales person right so we have a uh a chair company they might say hey I'll give anyone fifty dollars if they can sell one of my chairs so it's really like if you think about it in the simplest terms it's uh they're hiring commission only sales people and you're a commission with salesperson okay so it's basically like this company lets you sell their product and they give you a commission or a percentage okay so super simple so when you started affiliate marketing maybe early or middle part of your journey sure what

[3:06] were you looking for when it came to like who to partner with because you could work with like 100 different companies 100 yeah and that's the one interesting thing being the commission only sales person you get to kind of be the the hot girl or you get to be the selective person right like it's like not necessarily the other way around whereas like I started with a traditional internet marketing agency where we're selling you know five grand a month 10 grand a month whatever it is contracts to run their Google AdWords your SEO or whatever that right and in that case it's really you're getting interviewed a lot by the company we're

[3:31] here because you're the commissionally salesperson you're doing a lot of interviewing excuse me so a couple things I'm looking for in an offer in general one is um the cost tolerance they have for it meaning how much can they pay for it so coffee cups and they're gonna give a two dollar Bounty it's a very small small margin to go actually acquire customer especially if it's through paid traffic right they're not even organic there's not a huge Bounty um so I'm looking for something that really if you're asking me like has at least a 500 CPA which is essentially cost per acquisition that's the the Bounty for the actual product or service

[4:02] that it is for them to actually get a sale on it but then I've got enough margin to go in my world I'm a paid ads guy to go actually acquire a customer okay 100 bucks so I'm looking for a high Mark it's usually like a high ticket product and you're saying you're interviewing these companies um yeah I use interviews kind of like Loosely I'm not like sitting down across the table Yeah but like if you're so if you're just getting started there's offer Vault there's a ton of these raccoon and all these things where you can go ClickBank that's the one I've heard of yeah

[4:32] we can go look at all these these offers on there and a lot of times it's a really good place to start because if you get in touch with an account manager you can say hey here's I think I'm either I'm good at I've got a great YouTube organic Channel or I'm really good at Facebook ads or I think I'll be good at lying facing heads what are some offers that you see people making a lot of money on today or doing a lot of Revenue right like they won't know the exact profit that the person's okay so go a step further and like get some

[4:54] inside information 100 don't just sign up right away 100 okay and I would just I would ask them and say hey here's where I think my traffic or customers are going to come from and um who do you currently have today that's doing really well and what offers and a lot of times these we'll call middlemen is what they what they are like like a ClickBank or something like that where they know all the advertisers like we talked about right dive into that they know all the Publishers which is like me and you the people that have the track and then they kind of sit in

[5:19] the middle and kind of broker the deal in between so their value really is um I think underutilized for a lot of people I think people should really utilize them for really what they're making all the money for is helping download you on what's going to work and cut the learning curve for you versus is going in Google and searching you know top chair companies and then emailing each one and getting it off there as a silly analogy so A Chair Company would be something that's in line with maybe a 500 CPA like a luxury like I just made that up okay he was like um we did a lot of financial services

[5:48] so mortgage is a great example like I did lead generation so I didn't actually do physical products I was selling like uh Medicare insurance or Private health insurance and when I say selling I was driving a customer to fill out a form or call in and then I was using one of those Advertiser Partners their call center would actually enroll someone in the product those products are worth you know High lifetime value so they can afford to pay 500 to a thousand two thousand dollars to actually get a new customer yeah because they're not tangible products it's more like a monthly insurance it's like printing money basically for these people or

[6:18] selling mortgages I get that so you what what ad traffic were you sending what platform a lot of Facebook originally I got Facebook and then we came Instagram Facebook and we actually had a really good we were one of Snapchat's top 10 Financial advertisers Snapchat yeah Snapchat was selling for Snapchat or onset no I'm sorry on Snapchat as like an ad marketing Insurance products on Snapchat can anyone sign up for Snapchat got like ads or is that like private no as far as I know yeah 100 you can be on the ad Network huh that's insane same thing with Tick Tock anything with YouTube or Facebook or Google AdWords

[6:48] okay so for the sake of this conversation let's focus on one let's just say did you do insurance would you say you're an expert on insurance or you've done it before okay so and did you learn Facebook ads and Instagram ads from a true or traditional agency before yes that's kind of how you understood yeah so a lot of times when people are like how do you get started in affiliate marketing because again you're a commissionally salesperson you're you're really putting up in this case the ad spend right time all this stuff like you really got to make sure you're good at it like I think the biggest it's a bit

[7:13] of a taboo and not a play with the correct statement but I think one of the the best ways to learn is on someone else's dime so when I when I had a first I got a job and I got paid to spend someone else's money on on Facebook at the time and I get to learn how that worked on again I was getting paid just play with someone else's money and I had an ad agency would pay me per month to again manage their money so it was very low low risk for me low investment and I was literally getting paid to learn in my head which was amazing and I it took

[7:42] until I felt like it was really good to go start putting in my own money because they were my website gotcha at that point I knew I was pretty pretty good at what I was doing and I felt a lot more High degree of confidence spending at the time 100 a day or a thousand dollars a month or what you know whenever it wasn't putting money into it versus just coming off the street and being like all right I'm gonna get my feet wet in Facebook ads which there's nothing wrong with that either uh I I mean for anyone listening I would highly prefer to learn

[8:07] so you just had to become a great marketer first before you had the comp not necessarily confidence but willingness to bet it all on your performance as a marketer exactly right how did you have the confidence to just even do marketing for other companies though like where did you learn or how did you get into that it's um honestly it's not like a Cinderella Story I I was in college I sorted by the highest paying internship and one of them was a company that I didn't understand what they did I didn't know what SEO was web doesn't anything I went to it because it was like at the time it's 15 bucks an

[8:36] hour yeah like freaking I just worked at one okay two thousand uh 2010 I was like this is that's amazing right and um so I went there I interviewed and when I left I was like dude this guy like jokingly I told my friends like that guy probably has a crush on me if he hires me because I don't know I I did terrible yeah closing back a few days later hires me and uh so uh so that's how I started I really just got a job okay they need to learn what goes into marketing and then you started one yourself eventually you know I think the

[9:02] mindsetter takeaway from that was because there's nothing special about getting a job and all this like right I always like came with a thought that over deliver from what I'm paid for um so very good so over deliver for what I'm paid so if someone pays you five thousand dollars a month I'm trying to deliver ten thousand dollars worth of service to them someone's paying you ten thousand trying to deliver twenty thousand dollars okay service and and even when I had a job at 15 an hour I would not bill for some hours I would stay up late and I was just I was just trying to over deliver in every single

[9:33] way possible and I think that's something that still to this day sticks with me and I think that's um I think that's that's one of the you know if you said like what's one of the reasons like why you I I think it's just that mindset and commitment to over delivering and I think too often people are looking like you know I worked four hours today like right freaking third title too you know what I mean a lot of entitlement versus again like um just over delivering I think that's something I've taken a lot of like pride in with my marketing I would do a lot of

[9:59] free work if I didn't have results I would want to do it and learn it before I sold it to people where I feel like in the marketing space it's almost like viewed as you just need to like sign as many clients as possible and then just rack it up where you don't take accountability for the results that's right and so I think that mindset is a big indicator of why you're so successful thank you for that and honestly it just it makes sense when you uh so it makes sense on service what you just said why people are selling that and then it makes sense the other

[10:21] philosophy because you become a puppy mill and it's so exhausting really with with low uh I get back to margin all right like 500 a month client uh it's the weirdest thing I I found yeah and maybe people listening to me I know exactly five dollar a month plan was infinitely more of a pain in the middle yeah than a 25 000 or 100 I had this place said let's be quarterly this client would call me on Saturday night saying what's going on so to have a thousand five hundred dollar a month clients seemed miserable and at the beginning when and you have to I think a lot of times like

[10:52] you know it's so easy to say no like we'll go work with a public company United Healthcare like the biggest company but at the time dude anyone who would pay me for anything I was doing video algorithm work I did like borrowing a video camera for someone else meanwhile I was selling like paid Facebook ads like anything anyone paid paid me for I would do but again as as quickly as possible that over that over delivering I I this is an interesting one so we grew a internet marketing agency I was doing a multi-million dollars in revenue and very high margin this is my my first business not the one

[11:20] I'm just sold very high margin business we never spent a dollar on marketing and it was because it was all referrals it was all so my customer would go from the 2 000 a month client to a five to a 10 to a 15 000 because I was again over delivering adding service I was upselling them and I don't say upsell like a dirty word upsell yeah you were mentioning like up to sell like let me see where I can jam you like yeah adding value that they could pay me for is that like what I think about upselling and then they would refer me to great people

[11:46] and I'd get referral partners then I'd work with a PR agency that would deployment in the 10 companies and again it's just because we just did we were committed doing really good work and I knew that money would follow and after you see it happen once or twice it becomes really addicting versus like if you start off out of the gate saying okay let me Jam this guy for 500 bucks and never look at anything and you know just see how often I can Bill him for him maybe he won't see like it doesn't feel good it doesn't feel good you get Negative calls negative feedback you

[12:12] only get you know you and I mentioned a little bit off camera but you get one personal brand I can I could run 100 businesses before I die but I get one personal brand and it was that just always and we were joking like what a small town it is like that always stuck with me that I get one personal brand so that commitment to being known as the person who is a really good guy that does really stand up work that over delivers is a hard worker like that's so important to me maybe that's ego we were talking about yeah maybe that's ego but I think that's I don't think so if it is

[12:40] it serves me then anyway all that to be said I mean back to the referral thing I mean that is objectively how agencies will grow and so you don't do good work you won't get referrals and then people just try to buy courses and figure out why is this not working right because no one's telling their friends that they had a good experience with you but let's go ahead and just go into the tactics now of making those results so let's go back to the insurance example we're talking about you're going to run Facebook or Instagram ads what is your philosophy on driving traffic like what's your funnel look like what's your

[13:08] creative like break it down so I actually go the other way real quick on The Advertiser side because so often I think people are focused on how to get my cpms or cost per thousand questions or my cost per click down or my my uh my cost to drive a lead or a customer and specifically in affiliate marketing I think what gets really doesn't get looked at enough is the relationship with the advertiser because a lot of times if someone says they could pay let's go back to the chair analogy they could pay 50 a chair and they could really spend 120 for that for that same

[13:37] customer they're just putting it out there we'll take anyone at 50 bucks but that's not truly their threshold of margin so going upstream and like for me I'll use a real life example insurance right like I think when we first started we were getting paid like 40 a phone call and at its peak we're getting paid 120 a phone call and it was the exact same customer the exact same product exact same person the only difference that happened was my relationship with them so I was talking to them about scale and the quality I'm driving and the commitment to the brand and and and I can get I can get more in depth with

[14:07] it but I would I would really focus on if I was just starting an affiliate offer or if I just started becoming an affiliate I would really focus on first understanding the brand understanding understanding their needs uh as quickly as possible getting to talk to the actual brand themselves even through the middleman if you have to the ClickBank at the beginning and understand what are their growth targets where where are they looking to grow what products they're looking to grow what type of customers or actual real customer that they want and through those conversations you actually become you said would you say preferred partner yeah you go from being an affiliate to a

[14:36] preferred partner and at that point you're actually like it's a partnership at that point so when they have to uh cut cut their marketing dollars they cut you last or anything the scale they come to you first because a lot of these Brands so funny like raise a ton of money and they're requiring customers at all costs and it doesn't have to be economical for them right so the chair is worth 100 bucks and they're charging they're paying you 200 for the chair just because they're trying to grow less now with the legislation and yeah rates have gone but still like um so anyway so uh spending more time

[15:04] and tactically what that looks like is flying out and meeting with them getting faces oh my God for it face to face um actually like uh Christmas time I would know my account manager loved the Chicago Bears I got a front row seats to the sugar this is complete reverse way of thinking about it 100 and it's like you know we were jamming about how much we love psychology but it's really like becoming a really good partner in French with with them and doing things other people already do and you know and and you really see it rewarded a whole wholesomely on the on the other side for

[15:32] me at least again the 40 to 120 . this is well this is reflective again your success because I feel like a lot of people are attracted to affiliate marketing because on the outside it seems like beginner friendly you just need to get a link and then start driving chat traffic as cheaply as possible well you're going the complete opposite these people are like trying to hope these people don't know like see them they're trying to collect a check on the back end where you're like hey nice to meet you here's a cake for your birthday here's whatever but but to your point the barrier entry is nothing right

[15:59] means it's highly competitive right when you start doing things that other people won't do like I love like you asked me like what's the difference of marketing versus like insurance I said compliancy and like most people are like uh for me I love it the more oops I have to jump through the more pain in the neck something is the more I know that people are not there and I can actually go stand out so if I can go through and learn compliancy and going through and become a freaking borderline paralegal at this point where I know exactly how everything you can and can't say like

[16:26] I've stood out so much as a partner than everyone else going to fly in person all these other things so doing what others um aren't doing is exactly I think where there's actually edges in the business business to make money because everyone's trying to see how and we'll go through it too how to get cheaper traffic or how to drive traffic everyone's like you said signing up and clicking the link but like are you reaching out to the company actually directly trying to create a relationship there and learn to hit the guy on LinkedIn borderline stalking him to get in touch with him become friends with

[16:50] him on Instagram replying to his stories like this is all [ __ ] I would do the advertiser yes the account manager at The Advertiser so the the freaking the the guy at United Healthcare I literally I knew there was a Medicare conference I had I had a hope that he would be there I flew out to Jackson Hole Wyoming I got this guy drunk enough where he literally pissed his pants like no joke and I became such good friends with him and I was working on a contract for eight months within two weeks I had a contract on my desk after doing that and that's

[17:18] just stuff that other people aren't doing and instead when you say contract he's been like more favorable terms or just to advertise for the person breakfast so let me go click you said ClickBank um you know ClickBank oh instead of going through ClickBank as an example yeah yeah that's the best we're using that because that's like the main street terms ClickBank is like uh I call it like an affiliate Network so it's going around the network directly to the offer is where I'll call like The Advertiser in this case United Healthcare was offered directly with the company and you get favorable terms no fee and now you have

[17:48] a relationship with them so you can like actually see what they're looking for and you can actually deliver for them what they want instead of just self viewing it selfishly which I think the biggest problem with affiliate marketing that's right and then this the and even down to like um let's go back to that that same like um uh uh moral that we're talking about here like I would bleed sometimes for months when they said hey I need to push this new like um they were it's called final expense insurance doesn't matter it's another plan they said I I need to push this I was bleeding over here just to help them

[18:16] grow this and I would let them know I'm not saying I would do it just because I'm a nice guy like I would let them know that I'm doing them a favor over here but I would lose money to continue to not only grow the relationship but strengthen the relationship because so I can make more money over here and that's again those are little things that other people won't do or aren't doing in my opinion but the second you have something working from an affiliate offer I would I would literally shove my computer about Facebook and minimize that Tab and and working on my ads and

[18:42] everything and like I'm the only thing I'd be focused on is how to go direct with the advertiser and how to strengthen my relationship up there because you know they could shut you down at any point is that you're saying like to avoid that in a way I'm more saying um my attention would go towards growing the relationship with the advertiser less about my ads and I'm not saying I'm saying that to be dramatic because I think it makes sense if it's working don't touch it but yes and no and I'm sorry maybe I'm being too dramatic and funny but 99.9 of people are focused on

[19:08] their ads right and point one or focused on The Advertiser and I guess I'm just trying to be dramatic and give a shake to say this is actually where if you ask me where I made most of my money it's not I I think myself and my team are unbelievable marketers so I'm not necessarily to write a downplay it but I'm sure there's much much better marketers than me but we were able to make a ton more money because I focused over here versus Justin could you give examples of you can sound you might sound narcissistic here sure but why would this be worthwhile for your own

[19:35] self-interest yeah the working with Advertiser yeah yeah better rates or better so higher payout was one thing we mentioned payment terms so I would get down to prepay whereas like at networks or someone else was like net 60 so my cash flow was a lot better I would I would better pay out better pay out ah okay I would learn about the demographic better so I could actually feed my advertising my what I was doing my ads better because I knew who their actual customer was that brought the highest lifetime value to them and so learned what they would be willing to pay more so they say okay well someone's you know

[20:02] closer they to 65 versus an 80 year old we can actually pay you a little bit more for that oh well why don't we set up a dedicated campaign where I just drive you 65 to 70 year olds and you pay me 120 on that and anything over 70 year olds you can pay me 100 bucks on that's a good idea let's do this you're actually cutting deals and negotiating because I'm understanding the business right and and at a minimum minimum minimum I implore people to do this because there there will be such better advertisers such better advertisers because they'll actually understand what the heck they're selling and who the

[20:31] demographic is and we talk about like psychology like well the mindset of their consumer like what what what do they want versus like I could think that so get a company I'll just keep using this as a silly example because I think it's like it's easy to understand get a comfy chair You're Gonna Love versus if I understood like most people buy a new chair because they have excruciating back spasms I was like are you tired of back spasms keeping you up you're messaging yeah like my messaging so much better to say never experience never have to take a pain medication again for your back spasms and actually

[21:02] get the first good night's sleep of your life by buying this chair how much better is that than way better black chair with gold trim that looks really cool you're gonna love it right like I would only know that and I I use that as an example like a deep down demographic by talking to my Advertiser on and learning about their customers to learn about their needs you kind of get their data internally that's exactly right huh that's and that's kind of outcome based marketing don't list all the features it's gold with this padding no one knows I just want to know how it benefits them

[21:28] which is the key to Marketing in my opinion but if you don't understand what the benefit is to the end user you think it's a flashy video 100 yeah get get better better Medicare insurance versus if I knew that average senior is on eight different prescription pills and that oh my God the Medicare right coverage covers that never pay for a prescription you don't know that when you go click on a link and sign up as a Medicare affiliate you're like check your insurance if you're over 65. yeah I think this is the biggest thing that beginners do they just think they can get a link real quick make a

[21:58] gimmicky website in a day they need to make money in three days that's right where you're putting like days months thousands of dollars into relationships so you can get the customer data and then use that for your marketing campaigns and then on top of that getting better deals so you have better edges in affiliate marketing which is super competitive 100 100 so smart thank you and I'm and I'm not doing that necessarily again because I'm a nice guy I'm a capitalist I want to make 100 three minutes as well too but I just found this is where I can actually make that money that's the reality this is

[22:24] the reality where I can actually make more money faster when everyone else is preaching to go they'll do that you know like the lazy illusion of just get it done as fast as possible anyone can do it by my course today that's exactly right and I guarantee that course is only talking about ads and let's get into that too on how to run better ads but they're missing the other piece of the puzzle which if you think about it in theory like if someone's got a really good brand really good product low return rates upsells are for me they have a really good call center great

[22:48] great um uh you know uh uh conversion conversion rate optimize flow or something like that like I can some really like not that great at traffic and they actually kind of like hold weight like they kind of carry me along the way so it's an interesting way to think that's interesting yeah we're just I don't have to be that great a marketer if I've got the right partner they could have just a badass sales team that can enroll freaking anyone with a pulse that's attractive as hell let's do that I don't even have to be that good at marketing I think there's something to say about that as well with marketing

[23:15] like if you understand the messaging you don't need like the craziest of crazy creatives now obviously you can and it'll do well at the scale for like TV but for Facebook like if you can get the idea or the point across with an ad very concisely that works so you don't need some wizard of video to come and spend 20 grand on an ad so let's just touch on that because it's something that once you have the science down you don't really need to learn anymore and so kind of break down your philosophy just real quickly one quick Interruption to the podcast today guys I know what we're

[23:42] talking about in this podcast is a little more advanced so I decided to make a free marketing training for beginners it's about 30 minutes but it will teach you everything you need to do step by step to sell any product or service so whether you're doing an agency whether you're doing a software this really breaks it down into simple terms how to think about getting your first few customers and even scaling to millions of dollars with a marketing machine so again completely free you can find that in the link below but back to the episode okay a few things I think one is uh just generically speaking uh

[24:13] the formula we have is we'll call it an attention grabber at first okay so it could be I see you've got like cash over there could be that cash at the screen right or something like that right like something that you like got like for me it'd be like get up to 100 or uh 1700 back on your social security check if you're over the age of 65. so what I did there is I gave you a really good benefit statement that stopped the scroll that got your attention that's your headline that that could be I'm using like a video let's say Okay video like that might be the first three

[24:39] seconds of my videos that's the hook I'm trying to stop the scroll then I'm trying to get in the qualifier if you're over the age of 65 and you're on at least two prescription meds I know that you are I know that that's the age so whatever that could be that could be a guy if you're if you have back spasms and have trouble sleeping let's use that example right uh never have a poor night's sleep again um by by with this with this new chair I'm just off the rep obviously if you have it if you have back spasms and struggle with back pain um this is for you right so it's uh it's

[25:09] the benefit it's the qualifier then I get into um the actual like what life was what like before so and this is a lot of user generated content so okay I'll have like a senior talking they'll say you know before I actually made the call I didn't realize how much I was overpaying when I went to the doctor my actual doctor that I loved wasn't even in network for me and I get into this story and it puts them in like where they are right now like before I even clicked on the ad like I was sitting there I thought a lot of stuff could be like scam I actually

[25:37] even thought people were just like that it was too good to be true right like I put put people in their pain at that point where they are today so again without picking up five more minutes that you get into the back pain where before I felt like this it was and you want the person you know psychologically being like that's me definitely then I I can bring it back to life after so again it's it's it's well if you have this you could get this the money making my family on vacation you're outgoing this and I've got my call to action sprinkled in after so I

[26:06] might it might literally look just 1700 back on your social security check if you're over the age of 65 click this link now and call the number and speak some other than two minutes and they're gonna help you before I called before I felt this after now I feel this that's like in just in the simplest terms like how I would structure a video creative for someone it's perfect because you have the hook you get their attention because everyone's scrolling that's the fight the fight is attention but then you immediately if they don't fit your demographic want to get them off your ad that says you're going to get charged

[26:35] more so you'd say if you're 65 and over they're like oh I am that person they're not saying that out loud but thinking it yeah and then you want ugc of someone that demographic so they feel like they're looking in a mirror like this fits my demographic and then you're speaking to their pain points like oh this is actually the problem I have that's right and they just object tackle objections that's exactly right okay that's science and that's exactly right and a lot of those like even more tactically like a lot of people ignore like call Facebook ads or YouTube uh sorry Facebook comments or YouTube

[27:01] comments stuff like that like that to me those are my objectives then I have to overcome I love reading through those like I've got a a relatively big organ organization and like I still read our Facebook comments because I learned so much about Steve Wynn uh founder of wind hotels in Vegas um would spend a disproportionate amount of time with the bellhop because they were the Brew they were the first touch with the customers felt he could learn the most about his customer and how to create an unbelievable experience by talking to arguably one of the lowest paid people in his organization because they were the closest touch to the

[27:31] customer huh that's interesting because their people are going to come into the hotel without any experience and then they're going to have their own preconception of what this place is like what the brand is like and so they probably tell the bellhop oh I've heard this place is this without experiencing it and you can take that just side note that's how my YouTube titles yeah I'll read the podcast cast like the first hour and they'll be like wow I learned so much about this thing and I'm like oh and I'll change the title like immediately I love it and so so paying attention to that if you're running

[27:59] Facebook ads or organically you've got YouTube comments like paying attention to those reservations because they're the the customer demographics giving you the answers as to why they didn't buy something or why they didn't watch more whatever it is so really understanding those is super helpful in in creating that and then I can't stress enough like people love to be told what to do yeah um so the the call to action is very important as well so I find I find a lot of times um you know people go create an awesome ad or picture all this and there's not a lot of Direction click this link right

[28:28] now like our retargeting ads will literally even be hey you saw our video why didn't you call and they're like pause and be like call now that's good what are you doing yeah and that's interesting and it creates a little tension and it creates a lip but but it's like very direct and it's telling which like you need to call now it's like so you ask that question why didn't you call yeah like you literally said wow that's cool that's clever call now click the link why didn't you click it yet you're still watching what do you mean and then you know and and we get it maybe it's

[29:00] because you feel like it's this it's a scam maybe it's because you feel like it's too expensive your subjection tackling in the ads exactly right yeah and then and then again it okay so why aren't you click the link now yeah do it and they're like looking for it now as an example so so those call to actions are and it matters on your demographic right like I'm talking like seniors so maybe not like well they're probably struggling to find it so you want to say it twice you don't want them to get distracted there needs to be one action that they can take no question

[29:29] that's exactly right and maybe like a bizop type thing yeah it's a little you can be a little bit more like you're not trying to be a millionaire or what what's the problem you know yeah talk to your demographic that's so funny but these but it works though yeah but these different these different call to actions of telling someone what to do I can't stress that help are you saying it like twice like go to taking the website name then click the link below or are you only saying like because people like different forms of call to actions like some people like to type in the domain some people actually

[29:54] click will you say multiple I I'm usually pointing we're usually pointing to like what that and and thing I want is like okay if it was like a chair I wouldn't be just like click the link I might I might test click the link but a lot of it's like you need to like get this chair immediately like go buy the chair they have a 30-day money-back guarantee there's no risk to you buy the chair like you've got to be tired of having those back stuff I know you I was there before like I bought the chair you need to buy the shoes so this is

[30:20] psychology the priming of the called out find them for what I actually want them to do so I know I was saying click the link but I'll probably like in my case it's call call and there's a middle ground right because that's where you get paid and there's a middle ground especially as an affiliate there's a middle ground because I get paid on the call but I needed to back into a tolerable acquisition tolerance yeah man partner so I can throttle like click the link and call versus enroll and yeah there's ultimately a healthy healthy metal wrap somewhere in there but you'll just test it I'll test it but

[30:47] there so I would I would test the different levels because it's saying someone go buy the chair right now the your click's gonna be more expensive and you arguably could have an overall lower cost per acquisition but you want to test that against just check out the site go check out the site right so you'll test these everything and you might get 50 Cent um you know clicks through their conversory slower but netnet it's more profitable or maybe it's more expensive so just testing those higher intent versus lower intent call to actions I think I think watch the last 10 minutes like three times because that is more valuable than

[31:18] any ads course or equally as valuable and it's free on YouTube that was awesome but just two quick things I had how do you find ugc for 65 year olds dude it's it's uh you're actually gonna laugh at this some of my best user generated content is Craigslist if it's actually it's actually putting the right demographic of the problem so like back for the chairs thing I would put a Craigslist ad on there say with looking for a company spokesperson that has severe back pain that's it so then my all my applicants come in and they have a lot of back pain and so they're my

[31:50] actual real demographic with the problem so for me you know 65 is again it'd be like I'm looking for a 65 year old that has Medicare Advantage right now and pays at least 400 a month out of pocket like as an example like that's my that's my actual customer and so many times my ugc will actually like enroll in my product like though like like they'll do the the spokes I'll call the spokesperson video versus a ugc it's a little bit little little bit softer let's talk about and they'll actually be like after the filming they'll be like hey like can I actually call for the product I'm like yeah dude

[32:23] do it and we'll literally film the call okay go right there and film it and they'll literally actually enroll I'm like dude no pressure If you don't want to like but they're like this is actually better this is actually perfect for me so I'll actually get my actual demographic and then on top of that back to the Facebook and YouTube comments some of my best ugc comes from having an Outreach to those people so someone who said that they called or something they said they rolled or for you they I love this hour-long video like I would hit those people up and be like hey would

[32:49] you ever do like a a quick testimonial video for me just on your cell phone no big deal just like talking about like how much you loved it or why you watched my style for like just tell me about your life like things like that and I might have like a six minute ugc and I'll cut it we'll cut it down to 30 second chunks of like actual usable content nice but I give no Direction so it's very authentic good it's my actual demographic someone who enrolled or bought the chair in this analogy and I'm reaching back out and listen you could offer 20 Amazon gift card for them to do

[33:15] it so you could have incentives but so many times someone actually liked the chair and this analogy I don't have a chair but someone liked the chair and if I'm like hey will you help other people that like had the back pain that you don't anymore and we just drew like on your cell phone just talking about like how you felt where you're at like I give a little bit of guidance but like okay what do you want me to say whatever literally whatever just talk for as long as you want I get a five minute uh cell phone video back and someone that's my highest performing creative huh and are

[33:41] you using these like retargeting ads then no I use it for cold too yeah do you have like a formula that you've like tested like first ad how many retargeting ads yeah or anything like that it's um it's I'm gonna um put an asterisk on this because as an affiliate where you lose a lot is attribution so I really need to convert someone do you use high-ris have you ever heard of hiros I have not actually no I just never heard of hiros no oh it's ad tracking almost like like a private company that's solely dedicated to ad tracking Alex Becker's company that's awesome um so a lot of attributions so a lot of

[34:12] times so no no I'll I'll check it out for sure thanks for that um but uh and I'll be curious if this works for this because if they did they saw something really important but if I'm I own Chair Company you're my affiliate you send someone to chair company's website like I don't get the pixel lemon retarget them at least in my experience it repex them or in my case someone called they always spoke for two minutes they didn't enroll I don't get to where you can't put a UTM link on top of the UTM link a tracking link is that what you're saying uh so I can't cookie

[34:39] them based on them actually landing on the website or what actions it took even better I can't I can't retarget someone who added something to cart gotcha like that so I don't know for sure about that then and maybe you can maybe you can retarget someone cold but I'm guessing you can't retarget someone who like added to cart I don't know that's it but anyway all that to be said like an affiliate marketing you really have to be uh convert them cold actually so the retargeting traffic is off of like a three second plus because you don't have access to add like a code in their

[35:05] header yeah I can't add some of the United Healthcare website gotcha so but if they opt in you can do it on your funnel but okay sure so yeah I had my funnel I see what you're saying which is a whole nother topic we can get it makes sense so overall historically where we've converted a high percentage of our stuff on cold traffic if I own my own e-commerce company or something like that that'd be a wildly different yeah yeah okay that makes sense it's still good insight for people okay so then just last thing about the ad creative is it a typically a video of like record a

[35:31] video with their picture and there's text on the screen or like slideshow style or you know um we test everything we've ran and tested both um generically speaking especially if you're talking lead generation service um you're getting a much higher quality customer who's been through a video because I've been um they've had to put a little more intent than just an image so if I had an image of a 65 year old holding cash like and they click through so a little bit lower and 10 than someone who's watched 45 seconds of a video right um so we run both but generically speaking of video is going to be higher

[36:03] quality which is good because again if your customer tells you they have a 600 acquisition tolerance and they're enrolling 10 of those um you know you're getting paid 60 bucks per versus if I'm enrolling one percent of those my payout's much much lower which again I'd always prefer to be the Rolls Royce for the Mercedes-Benz versus the Toyota Camry not I used to have a toy nothing they Mass produce a car cost versus a premium product handcrafted yeah I'd rather be getting I'd rather have so much more margin on a 60 sale or phone call in my case than a ten dollar call or something but

[36:39] can you break what were you saying six hundred dollars I was basically saying like let's say I put someone through and I'm just going to use generics this isn't every time but a video campaign let's say that quality is that one out of ten people buy the chair and a 10 conversion rate I now getting paid call it um sixty dollars every website visitor in that silly scenario versus the image I might have a one percent conversion rate so I might get paid six dollars so you're just breaking down the math even though technically you still you get six hundred dollars and for me that's important because I if

[37:12] you're doing lead generation no you're not paying quicker I'm getting paid per lead but it has to bake into acquisition tolerance gotcha So eventually let's do call let's do that so it takes 10 phone calls to enroll someone they're paying me six dollars a phone call versus if it takes um you know one one percent or whatever it is ten uh my mouse like a hundred phone calls let's say it takes 100 phone calls I'm only getting paid six dollars phone call okay sixty dollars per phone call and I'd rather always play I have six dollars worth of margin to drive a phone call because I don't I don't think

[37:42] the image ad is driving customers at one tenth the cost and they're enrolling at one time gotcha yeah so technically you get only get paid whenever you sign up a person but since you have all the data you break it down to how many calls is leading to someone who's a sale so yes I know so I'm I'm generically speaking getting paid every time I drive a lead so a call gotcha but but I know that if it's too low quality they'll eventually drop my payout or turn me off gotcha hey dude your shit's not so it still matters yeah so it still matters so indirectly

[38:14] it's just getting the cat differently I'm getting paid every time they enroll someone and that's for any Legion including e-commerce they're getting paid fifty dollars a chair purchase it's still a lifetime value baked into yep if the advertisers the right partner there's a lifetime value baked into that so you want to send them someone who's going to buy five chairs and also the pillow and also the eye mask make them shut up they're gonna buy all this up because then they can pay you eighty dollars of a chair purchase because they know that the lifetime value of your customers are really high so it all bakes into that in my opinion

[38:47] the life tolerable acquisition costs of the lifetime value is really what you need on and by the way getting to the advertiser you need to understand what their lifetime value is and what their true tolerable acquisition costs could you break down what you mean by tolerable like tolerate what a this is what they the expectation they're setting for you um so if I've got a hundred dollar chair and uh let's say I own the chair company and my um employee salaries based works out to be cost me ten dollars per share for my employees whatever it is I've got a multi-million dollar company but I know

[39:20] my my employees salary it cost me my my cost of goods sold is ten dollars for for the employees it's forty dollars for the actual raw material now I'm down to 50 it's another ten dollars whatever okay or something like that so I've got forty dollars I can really put towards marketing where I can actually profitably acquire customers I actually spent seventy dollars for that hundred dollar chair I'm upside down and I'm bleeding I'm losing money because I've got more costs other than just my marketing costs that go into my profit and quality so understanding what their true margin is profit margin understanding their their growth yeah

[39:56] their profit margin is understanding where their margin is and now if you said hey what's your margin they're never going to tell you right but if I said things like a tolerable acquisition cost or if I said ah lifetime value that this person's worth to you okay so you enroll them at 50 bucks a month how long do they stay on they stay on for 10 months on average okay so they're worth 500 bucks in my head I'm doing yeah they buy other products or is it just this no no they buy another product it's a one-time 100 sale so they don't know they're giving you the equation here yes I'm getting

[40:24] 600. now uh and I might not do this in one sitting now um the actual cost like like how much does a chair cost like um like is that is it it's got to be expensive it's a nice chair dude like it's only like 50 bucks to produce the check okay got it got it right and I'm like getting this data and maybe it's not exact but you told me you could only afford 50 for a chair I just found out your lifetime value is 600 the chair itself costs 50 bucks so somewhere between 50 and 550 you can afford to pay me so it's my job

[40:56] to push to push the limits on that and a lot of that comes from again like like sales back to psychology so now I'm saying dude we found this great pocket of customers that will take the upsell and I think I can scale it but the promise it's costing me seventy dollars seventy dollars every single time to acquire someone and I'm upside down and I I gotta pause that campaign so I don't know if are you guys in growth mode is that I don't I'm not trying to be greedy like is that is that a thing you know and no okay you know what let me ask my boss because we

[41:24] do want more we do want more chair sales and then approves the 70. okay now I know that you can get up 70. you know what I mean so dude so smart I don't think you guys if you're like a beginner don't understand how genius that is but that is why the relationship that he's building is so important because they're all going to tell you on the outside and a lot of these lower level employees that you're working with just follow the rule book that's given to them from their boss but you know there's flexibility that's exactly and so if you can build the relationship start getting a little more

[41:50] piece of information you get confidence on what you can ask for yes and then if you're doing a good job they're gonna move the needle for you and you nailed it like I'm starting with a junior level account manager yeah who really doesn't give a [ __ ] for the most part I don't know like you said the beginning if they don't care yeah show up they make whatever it is 40 Grand a year and there's nothing that's not talking crap on anything about that but and they punch in and they don't care not all of them but some my job is to get to the middle manager

[42:15] senior manager to the CMO to the CEO how fast can I actually have a monthly meeting with the CEO that's what I want to get and that's my end goal for even United Healthcare a freaking multi-billion dollar Goliath I want to become enough of a partner with them that I actually speak to the CEO because then I can actually have a real strategic business conversation versus I was given an Excel spreadsheet I can pay 50 bucks a chair that's really it but when I make pushes and I talk in their language and also backed up psychology understanding how do they make money right and again I don't blindly say how

[42:47] did you get paid right hey I got a question for you my buddy's applying for a cal manager job do you guys um like do number sales matter for you or like what do you get like looked at because I want to make you look good like right however I can make you look good like my job at the end of the day is to make you look good so that you guys can grow and we can create a partnership and oh you know actually get judged based on chair sale number chair soul I got it so then I'm always able to talk in terms of them again back back to

[43:17] marketing we can we can sell 1 000 shares a day like is what I'm trying to get to to 1 000 so now I'm talking in terms where they're now paying attention to what you're saying but I have to understand what what you know with them what's in it for them you know what's how can you make them look good to their boss like exactly right that's it I understand that I can talk in terms of that I can have business strategic conversations around what looks good to them and then listen it's different at every level because the the actual senior senior managers will focus on

[43:44] margin or something like that something but this guy's focused on volume I can if I can sell him on the vision of how much volume we can do together I can get paid more I can get better terms I can learn more they could even I've even gotten big 500 million dollar companies to giving me give me their customer list so I can run a look-alike campaign off their actual customer list like that's how integrated I have been with Partners that's smart who the hell has that strategic yeah I had tens of thousands of customers that I literally uploaded the Excel spreadsheet to Facebook and I said one

[44:17] percent lookalike of these people hello where everyone else is running a demographic campaign based on people feeling right some that's a very Rarity but that's just that's an extreme but that is like the edge if you can get there get edges because now I know what they care about I know I know how I'm now getting roped into conversations with Senior Management because I'm making enough noise and you know all these things so this me personally you're asking me within my lead generation business it's sold it was about six years old the first year and a half year to year and a half I was intimately

[44:48] involved here last four and a half years I was intimately involved here don't get me wrong I still uh focus on the strategy here but I had really great uh media buyers and I hired really great people to do this even at the size company we were doing over a million customers a year for these big Partners I was still a point of contact for a lot of my partners and it's not because I couldn't get myself out of the weeds it's because this was the highest value activity very high leverage this was the highest value activity for me to be focused on not that and again that's a

[45:17] naive statement for where where we are today the beginning I get it that's what you're focused on I get it but all I'm trying to say is don't have your time allocation to be 99 and one yeah once you master this you have hundreds of thousands of customers you move this by ten dollars that's an extra million dollars and even at the beginning though dude if you're costing you 60 bucks to drive this chair company if I can get paid 70 automatically I'm off to your ads are probably getting paid 50. yeah so again let's choose a 70 30 split out of the gate 70 on your ass

[45:45] 30 on this that that's my ask it's not what I'm being dramatic and it's easy to watch this and be like you know that's the other thing I think is interestingly we talked about like mentors like where are people giving you advice from their current frame of the world like if if you focus on what I'm doing today it's actually not what serves you best from zero you have to learn that skill you can't skip this part it's advice is [ __ ] it's actually bad they fight me yeah for how you go from you know from 25 million to 50 million to 100 million dollar

[46:12] business is much different activity than from zero to a million dollars right in business so the advice you're getting from this guy doesn't actually apply here at all so so to bring it back to like actual application processes from zero to a million in Revenue let's call it your zero to a hundred thousand uh 70 80 on ads but 20 30 on Advertiser and it's just far too often that it's 100 and zero or 99 and one percent here and that that's my that's my ask for people listening is that that split right for you you really mastered this part the if you guys don't remember where we're going left and

[46:45] right here this is like running at the actual marketing side you kind of mastered that when you were running the traditional retainer based agency and then once you got company like I can deliver results you went to affiliate marketing so you can get results and you focus on relationships so you can get higher margin and that's where like the millions of dollars are made on the extremities when you have an edge and that is how you get to the extremity basically by focusing on that relationship and my only thing understanding that this only a lot is that 20 30 even from day one on the advertiser at that time was my my

[47:13] customers paying me on my right I did always have a twenty Thirty forty percent allocation of time towards that I just I just don't see and again today might be 95 of my time allocation towards that I just I don't see it in agencies I don't sit like so much of the time time allocation is how do I become better at running ads and media and I think that's awesome I think that should be the majority but I did it should not be 100 of your time what's interesting is how we started this conversation about accountability for yourself and results for your customer you're basically this is this person's job at

[47:47] the company at a huge company to like get more sales and to grow the affiliate marketing you're basically doing their job for them at that point that's right that's really cool to think about it that way to take accountability for their job make them look good and they'll give you everything that's exactly that's really clever okay so now that's the ad side in the relationship side which is probably the most valuable thing I've heard on this podcast for me personally right now so thank you seriously thank you but moving into let's say they click on your ad are you sending them through a funnel or do you

[48:15] just straight up send them to a call Page you know uh so my funnel is a call Page um so it basically like might be like a excuse me like a short um the backup depending on the intent level the ad is going to change the entire I'm going to throttle and test the intent level on the landing page okay for instance if I were to run a image of a senior holding up cash and they were to come and all they see is a big phone number in this call here yeah I'm gonna get a lot of phone calls they're going to be horrible quality it's going to be

[48:45] very bad for my Advertiser my my payouts are going to come down they're going to turn me off people are going to be confused a bad consumer experience on the inverse if I said a video ad I said you have to enroll here and then you put them through a 100 question survey before I show them the phone number people that call are probably going to roll right away but I'm going to get two people to do that so I have no scale it's not a profitable it doesn't make any sense to you so all that to be said is it fits somewhere in the middle and

[49:13] that's what will throttle is essentially the intent of the individual along the funnel so if they came in low intent I may test a little bit more High intent of like just say taking them through a 20 question or a 10 question um questionnaire that maybe doesn't have anything to do are you a U.S citizen yes or no are you over the age of 65 well I know they are because that's when I targeted yes or no and I'm actually having them add intent yeah so they're getting more buy-in right and then they're getting more bought in so um so all that to be said is I'll

[49:43] throttle the intent on the pages but before I show a call to action after I show a call to action but I will say the common theme is I always have and you you're the one who actually said it the benefit statement like most of my marketing has nothing to do with the actual uh X's and O's of what the product was like I remember we had a weight loss clinic um customer this is going back nine ten years ago and the biggest headline was it's not your fault that was one of the best headlines I've ever written it's not your fault so people overweight I

[50:12] said it's not your fault why because I understand my demographic understand what they were now do I totally believe in that statement not really like yeah you know okay like you could work out eat healthy you and I are in good shape like there's a lot more to it but I really empathize with my customer and then I talked a lot about the benefit statements on looking good feeling healthy energy being able to pick up their kids being they being when they're older having being active all these things that I that right I'm just I'm just kind of spitting stuff on the benefit but I never talked about

[50:41] you're gonna go meet with the doctor first and he's gonna sit you down and they're gonna do a nutrition plan and it's the best doctor he's gonna do a great nutrition plan with you and it's going to break down your Macros and then from there you're going to get a lesson plan on how to work out and you're going to go three times sounds like homework I've never really talked about the actual products very much like even the chair example if you gave like or that I gave I might sprinkle in some stuff it's this this special that that but I'm not real I'm not like there's a thousand count

[51:06] fiber on the chair I'm talking about why the hell you want the charity look cool you want to feel good whatever those things are so I will say throughout my you're talking about my actual landing pages and funnels I'm very heavily answering reservations like we mentioned so I'm getting in their head before they they even say oh this feels expensive like I'm already hating that reservation dead on at that point and then I'm talking all about the different benefits and if I'm doing it really well I've targeted my messaging and my messaging is congruent with the different benefits statement so the guy who's got back pain

[51:37] got targeted because he had back pain so saw the ad only because I I demographically targeted him on back pain my ad talked about back pain but my landing page talked about back pain he bought because of back pain I didn't buy because it had gold plates all right whereas the guy who's maybe let's call it the ego I'm just being funny the ego original I targeted I've talked about and my landing page is congruent with that so that's when I've gotten really good is what I'm saying are you uh a mid 20 year old in the Arizona that runs a great YouTube channel and podcast

[52:04] that's really it like you're like that's freaking me like that's when I'm done really good is when I yeah my marketing messaging to my different that was probably the biggest Revelation for me my beginning day is like I had a client that was like a beauty salon they did Nails lip injections liposuction all this stuff and they're just trying to send traffic to a website where it's all of it like you just need to run an ad of people who want lip injections to a landing page offering lip injections to scheduling an offer of lip injections that's the easiest way to do it or the best way to do it so I had a question

[52:34] regarding your I guess pre-qualification process if you guys didn't understand what he was doing with the questionnaire as you're trying to get people to put enough skin in the game or enough effort in we're the only people willing to go through that really have the problem and then once they've done that work they feel like kind of obligated to even show up to the call or to actually call sure and they're more qualified in a way so you're trying to find a balance you don't do 100 questions because that's too much work but you don't want to do no questions because then it's people who want like lazy Solutions so

[52:59] is are your landing pages are you first off what are you using to build landing pages and is that type form for your applications or what are you doing no I don't there's actually a lot of our stuff's custom built but there's so many off off the shelf really so you can that you're Landing like you have like a WordPress developer PHP WordPress yes so it's built on on WordPress and exactly it's all it's all custom custom code from this point but uh mostly that's for flexibility and listen there there's some uh unbelievable products out there that um may even be cheaper or simpler or anything like that we I've just

[53:30] so you're having videos made by a team that you're hiring and then you're building the websites custom correct and then you're just using traditional like Google pixels or Facebook pixels to trap okay I'm buying media with a national ad platform yeah I know there's third party yeah it's complicated but um and then they might be great but from for our business that that's how we we run it and I was gonna make another comment oh I was gonna say a really good place to look is not your like the most competitive Industries like I love looking at like DUI attorneys like [ __ ] like that that like some of the best I

[54:00] go where the best marketers flock I don't necessarily run ads there I'm not like I do I compete with the best of the best I'm not trying to be a cool guy I'm but like they've got some really good [ __ ] that's what you're learning from I'm learning them yeah I mean a lot from not even my industry I'm learning from other Industries and back to you're talking about the intent my dude one of the best exercises you could do is go try and buy a car those guys have mastered what are you talking about as far as they intent you walk in there you

[54:23] go how much is this car if he's a good salesperson he goes wow hold this what are you looking for tell me about you right you're there for [ __ ] six hours you might end up you're like screw it I'll pay it right like a two-hour webinar that's that's dramatic right and listen it's it's less because you're there in person versus like you know what you can hit an ax so there's a balance but but um that that's an awesome annoying sales process to go through just to understand what we were talking about as far as Intent no 100 I walked in a lot and said how much for

[54:51] that Mercedes they said 50 granting on that walk the other way what if I drove it got seat massagers yeah I did the whole thing right now I went through it and then you broke it down that is 50 only all right yeah okay maybe you know with financing you only need five thousand down today and and don't take that so literally because I don't think you put someone through a two-hour webinar or I'm not the 100 no I know then the question but just just to play with the seat as far as intent isn't is important and split testing and throttle I don't know they ever heard anyone split

[55:18] testing and throttling like intent across the funnel that's really important to throttle out and split test that based on how low of intent and how high of intent which economics will work best for your Advertiser your attitude and dude I'm sorry I forgot the actual question I went back that was a better answer that's all that's all I know but more so than what's just I guess the last question on this website so you're doing questionnaires have you ever tested like a a short webinar a vsl any sort like videos like you're trust building your Authority building years ago we ran we were doing an info product

[55:50] and we did we did a webinar and uh admittedly I think we had less than 100 Grand spend so I I I'm there's far better people to ask for that okay cool yeah I guess Insurance isn't doesn't make as much sense everyone kind of understands what it is you don't have to teach them that much and it could it could potentially um we haven't tested but this is straight up like once again on the landing page they have to opt in like do they put their email in first and then they get the questionnaire and I use that as an example so we've We've ran long from auditorials for sure

[56:18] which is like an advert editorial I've never heard of that it's a um think of it like a um you're reading like a newspaper article type kind of thing so we'll talk about oh is this is this long for advert yes okay yeah yeah but go ahead and explain it yeah yeah it's long form so essentially there's a lot of tax copy on it so you'd send someone from uh Facebook ad to your landing page and 10 000 characters right and there's a middle ground truth there too right where it could feel like a normal like Yahoo finance article right where it's maybe got you know uh 2 000 characters

[56:48] or whatever whatever it is on it but it's really all taxed and it can be written as a third party so you could be third party endorsing the chair it could be a first party could be a customer's review about the chair and it's and it's long form so that you're really going through like all the sales psychology like testimonial social proof all of it and a lot of it's exactly what you talked about than text copy we'll do that we just test that you'll spit test with like yes no questions or this are you listen through that and honestly for us because we're into end goal is to

[57:16] drive a phone call um a lot of it is that the Clone action is just the phone like immediately call this phone number and and that works people actually call the number right out there and I didn't even actually capture information so no email drift campaigns needed just straight up and and I would say on that too A lot of times like um and this is a biased comment because I'm so used to like I call it telephony phone calls and stuff like that but um I would actually get to interview garyvee which was really yeah it was super cool and one of the things he made

[57:47] a huge case to was I'm not saying dead female but he's like dude text message marketing yeah SMS right now is big [ __ ] and I sent a text the next week my team took maybe 20 minutes to load up we texted all of our old customers I think we literally made 175 000 in the first hour and like now just like literally like one tax no sequence the thing is called twilio it's on their phone yeah twilio and they just went you know we just hit it we sent it was like one sentence and then called the number and it was like it like

[58:17] freaking made so much money so so we started captioning more phone numbers and text messaging and essentially put him through a sequence and stuff like that but I would I would I would I would touch on if someone's like putting a lot of effort again towards the email like just like a poke is like text messages I think there's like a 90 plus percent open rate I don't know you I've opened every text I've ever got oh yeah just to get it off my 100 yeah 90 open rate which is not even close to email and then the response rate I think I don't I'm making up numbers you can fact check

[58:43] me there's like at least for us we had like a 10 all in rate which is like really good that's email a good click through it's like three percent and the opener is only 40. so it's insane I just want to add context here for everyone listening they're in marketing there's so much Nuance you have to understand your demographic and so the reason I asked about via cells or videos because I'm maybe more in the info product world and then but he has an older demographic in this example and those older people may like to read because they're used to reading the newspaper and so that's

[59:10] native to them and then they prefer to call and so SMS is better than email and so you have to be intentional with those choices is it email is it text is it both probably both but whatever like you have to really think through your Target demographic and what's natural to them you know I'll say you were you were talking about like um kind of edges or like what other people aren't doing and um and you're like don't do your own horn but um I like there's a term called method actor I don't remember her in this but it's basically like like um uh what's his name who played

[59:40] The Joker Heath Ledger like actually I think actually actually like committed suicide because he was so weird playing his rules yeah so much he drove himself actually crazy like it was joke I'm like I'm a method actor when it comes to the stuff huh so like we ran something in uh people getting out of credit card debt and I actually like defaulted on bills to understand what it felt like to be a consumer in credit card debt I like I wouldn't necessarily recommend that like my credit score got hit and all this stuff but like and this is this is years and years ago like you could have paid

[1:00:07] it but you just chose to go you just wanted to go through the process I wanted to feel how it felt like to be my consumer who I was talking to who was oh my God and like even now we'll go back to senior demographic like I volunteer in like group homes assisted living homes retirement homes I spend a lot of time on my demographic a lot of time because that's the only way I think I could actually understand these people in any demographic even if I I guess if I'm not my own demographic is a good way to say it but like right like that's the only

[1:00:34] way I can really really like I'll give you a perfect example I didn't understand like people in in debt credit card debt are very real if excuse me a group Catholic convert a religious and I didn't put two and two together it's actually there's a lot of biblical around you're a slave to your creditors and and don't be saved your creditor right how bad debt is for you right would have never thought of that being a religious angle I'd partner with one of the largest mega churches and ran ads to their congregation and it converted like wildfire because because that demographic was so ashamed baby or just

[1:01:10] as maybe built in a little more into their psyche aware to not be in debt all that to be said fun and fun cool cute analogy that's or a real life example but point being is like I only got that spending a lot I actually would literally call my customers and say and this is now at this point like running tens of millions of dollars business I still get on the phone with my customers and say hey just conducting a quick survey you mind if I have a few minutes with you back to the Steve win example I stole that page at his Playbook and this lady kept saying thank God God

[1:01:41] and God I prayed thank God God it just got me curious and I was interested and I only had that Insight because I took the time to spend time with my Democrat if you're not calling back your customers even if you're an affiliate calling them messaging them on Facebook if you're not going to the retirement home spending time with a senior or whatever that is you you couldn't you you will never ever have the creative awareness to actually talk in their language back to the chair example that I just can't that was so damn insightful for me like you just shifted my mind completely but I'm so glad you live in Arizona dude

[1:02:17] hell yeah that anyone listening to this you have to understand like these are million he's running a millions millions of dollars worth of a company and this is the level of depth you have that he's going to to hit that absorb that internalize it and action that because it's not as simple as click and Link on ClickBank throwing up a quick quick click funnel and then doing that if you want to go this far with your business and so that level of I call it Psychopathic intentions is what it takes to be a top performing person so that's awesome dude really appreciate you sharing that on here and that's

[1:02:48] completely free my guy what a nice guy but okay I totally forgot the train of thoughts out that was like I was fully in that moment I'm sorry but that was really cool okay so okay here we go your company was doing millions of dollars of Revenue yes so what this is just for me because I'm kind of like on that level and wanting to scale to where you went so what size was your team and like how did you kind of like organize yeah departments in a way it's actually uh really really lean team so we had at um call it um we had 16 full-time employees at scale

[1:03:26] and called another 10 to 12 Off the Bench if you will so was this in Arizona sorry contractors uh half the team was in Arizona okay it's about how I'm using round numbers but uh the core team was in Arizona so I love the idea of remote work like we talked about too um I have a thesis that if someone's like uh for me like a senior level or like a core individual I should want to like see feel here touch them like I want to write it close enough or we could go over dinner and creative right so that's a good way to put it so

[1:03:56] um um currently and pretty quickly like anyone who was of um a high level strategic value is local to me um and I like that and I prefer that that's not always necessarily like uh tangible if you're just getting started out but that that to me is a holy grail and listen we don't have we haven't had an office since 2019. sometimes we go to a coffee shop right probably Monday through Thursday I bet I see them for three or four hours yeah a day so 16 hours a week just best hours of the day so yeah like that's enough for me right um so I'm not tied down they're not tied down

[1:04:31] we still work remote everyone gets a job done so that's your question I had a um tell you the beginning and then today so uh beginning I had myself I was doing everything like I'm sure a lot of people are running yeah I was talking to customers doing everything um quickest thing I hired for is and this is me practicing what I preached I hired a junior media buyer so some of this is my affiliate business Junior media buyer who could kind of watch under me and and kind of like learn and I'm a big proponent of show and watch and monitor so I show them how

[1:05:04] to do it over extended period of time could be a month or whatever it is a couple weeks then I let them do and I watch very closely so I'd let them launch a couple campaigns from a couple hundred bucks and I'd watch and we'd go back in and I'd oh we missed this and then and then having at scale you have a monitoring in place so you have I get daily reports of how much revenue profit spend we had things like that our quality metrics that we're watching so now I've got the kpis that I'm watching and I'm monitoring but that's not all in a week that's you know or overtime so I

[1:05:32] had a junior level and um what I started doing is the Strategic elements of the ads it's up I would lay out and he would carry out the grunt work carry out the grunt work until I filled him up then I got then I I went from part time for him to full time I brought him on that is he got more literate I would have him do more and more of the actual building out the campaigns and I'd watch again too and I kind of put the the structure and then get more and more strategic so essentially if you're if you're noticing I'm like trying to be insanely aware of what the

[1:06:00] highest value activity I could be working on and I'm trying to delegate from the lowest value so we'll keep her assistant and bookkeeper with my first two hires right it was easy for me I didn't like doing it she was doing the [ __ ] that I did me too by the way exactly and those are easy hires wins not as when you're a marketer and you love to run ads right and you have to download where I'm at yeah that's where it was like it was it was and it wasn't a challenge anything other than psychologically it was like getting things off my plate that I like to do

[1:06:25] but it wasn't the highest value activity and I had a uh I think a revelation for me that might be helpful is I think it's Warren Buffett spends like and he has is that just because he's old because you're always old now but it's like I think he's like one meeting a day and that's been for like decades where he just like stares at the wall and thinks and I started blocking a time in my calendar to think I put two hours of thinking time the first kind of like all right what the [ __ ] am I doing and the next time your school I describe I'm

[1:06:53] like okay no phone next yeah right like all right Bone's the killer not that next time okay okay why but you know and and you get better at actually strategically putting time to think down and I had a joke with my upper management team it's not really a joke I said when we've gotten good is when you guys aren't doing anything all day long you're staring at a wall like that was our end goal was for them to do nothing and just to think and it's like huh how interesting of that is that versus like trying to slave drive someone for 90 hours right and we have to get our [ __ ]

[1:07:23] done on being funny with that statement but it's actually true like I want a lot 100 a lot of my day and you or anyone listening is entrepreneur the quicker you can get to I had a summer one time poked me really hard I had it was making a ton of money I was doing great I had a team yeah I'm an entrepreneur he's like no you're not and I was like yes I am he's like no you're not I was like what do you mean it's like you've built yourself a job and what a [ __ ] ego poke that one right I wasn't an entrepreneur an

[1:07:49] entrepreneur someone who owns the business works on the business not in the business where you could go disappear for a month in the business grows I was like oh [ __ ] all right I I'm a good employee of myself and it was like really like actually the the the labeling that I needed to get me to the next level was like I'm not an entrepreneur and so I'm doing that so anyway so no it's really important it's a perspective shift people brag about I work 80 hours a week I'm like that kind of shows that you're not doing a good job on your business right and you

[1:08:18] haven't delegated right and it's unhealthy uh there's just there's so many things but they think they're like cool for it and I'm like you're kind of telling the smart people you don't know what you're doing and it's funny you'll you'll um you'll find my richest smartest Friends Ask how many employees you have and the last number I say the bigger the flex yeah how big is your office I don't have an office that's cool you know like whereas like when I was coming up you're like I have 30 employees I'm the man dude 20 000 square foot office right and that doesn't mean don't have employees right

[1:08:48] that consent that was the old way of Leverage but in our Modern Age you can that's exactly right that's just cool so anyway so if I go back it's uh tactically speaking I I how I got how I got out of that because I think that's more beneficial than where I am today actually if I let me let me break down your question in like two sentences I hired for [ __ ] I didn't like to do right that would assist in a bookkeeper I didn't like it easy then I started hiring for for things that I like to do but I knew were not the highest value

[1:09:18] activity how I arrived at that is I had a this is so simplistic I had a notebook next to me and I had an alarm go off every 15 minutes and I would write what I did what I was working on at that time and I would write it and I write it I write it like not just email emailing who reading what doing what and then at the end of the day and I only did that for a couple days and looked back and so much of my time is spent actually building out these campaigns or responding to emails or oh I got distracted and I read for two out two

[1:09:49] hours on [ __ ] that I didn't need to be doing and I got very tactical with my life like very deliberate with my time and it was only doing that like a monkey 15 minutes later and then I could start circling things that I knew I shouldn't have been do so that was very easy for for me to have him start building out campaigns I would set kind of the structure our bill at the structure he'd actually go these audiences with this with us with this then I got it to be more strategy and I got it to where he could run ads by himself and I would watch in and I

[1:10:19] and I lowered my time less and less smart slightly though and I think another good um Chef for people is someone said if you could hire someone 80 of the good of you that that that's that's the goal that was helpful for me because no one's gonna be as good as you dude you're the guy who's gonna make all the money be the entrepreneur right you're the guy who cares the most you're the one working 100 hours at the beginning putting up your money like no one is going to be as good as good as you shouldn't say no one probably not though so for me looking for people as good as

[1:10:45] me I'd be like I can do that better no [ __ ] dude no [ __ ] so that's not gonna stop saying I could do that better say but could he do it 70 80 as good as me and go

[1:11:00] like that was the goal and so it was a lot easier to to scale and to pull myself out of the day-to-day because that was the goal so it was a lot easier to frame it that way and then I was able to delegate more and more and more and until eventually where uh again I was still helping on the strategy here still watching but maybe at that point fifty percent of my time was on the advertisers and spending time over there and then that continued to shift and shift and shift one I like doing this two I'm good at this the big classified is sales in a way called sales yeah and

[1:11:31] I think that's always the highest okay so that's by the way that 80 rule that you just said it's the 80 that's exactly what I needed to hear um but so you have a media buyer that you're training up he might be 80 good as you that's great do you have like a project manager to like oversee like accounts or account managers you know um now I I do um for like facing the client client facing oh yes client facing yes yeah well one guy client facing it was it was me so first I was doing everything then he was doing some of this and I was still doing

[1:12:02] this because I because I still believe this is the highest value yep and and and and this was the hardest to hire for and I think the highest value again even the agency let's go back to even more simplistic business like I had someone running ads again and I was the client face facing and I tried to get someone in there to to um manage clients and they would do a pretty good job but even then like I I was like the higher payers like I still manage towards the end because I knew that was the hardest position for me to hire because it's a very high value

[1:12:31] individual could they do the job well without understanding the media buying side to the core question I've never had someone who didn't understand both okay and I wouldn't say intimately because he moved from Junior to or Junior to Middle to client manager because he could talk very well um this one this guy at my current company was uh rainbow AdWords for maybe six months how much so he understands it enough so I would say for me um they both understand it pretty Okay cool so again this is a is there any other core hires that you said that like you were surprised that was so important

[1:13:13] or that pretty much it's pretty straightforward I'd say I would say a fractional CFL what do you mean by fractional mean an hour or two a month so there's yeah yeah okay B2B it's a literally letter B to B CFO and these are a lot of like retired CFOs from big companies that charge a lot maybe three four hundred bucks an hour but three three or four hours a month and I didn't really understand the value to reading my p l similar how you read an ad account as an example or something like that and there's a huge value because I could really understand where there were

[1:13:48] believes in my business profit centers there are a lot of things that I started tracking that I didn't track before that I didn't understand and um it was very inexpensive for the value that the individual brought because they have 50 years of skill and they can look at it like that and it takes an hour or two yeah um a month and that's all we would mean with that first and a forecast I didn't realize really no different than goal setting so if if I just went through life and we're like yeah but if you said I thought your video on this yeah I think yeah if you

[1:14:19] were like uh get the YouTube channel go watch his YouTube channel thanks dude uh yeah if you wanna if you know if you want to set a goal to lose 10 pounds 12 pounds I like this one let's say 12 and it's a it's a pound a month or something like that um you know you've got did I lose that pound this month no I better sure should lose two next first I want to lose weight it's for generic match or whatever that is right you could even break that down even more bite size but a forecast does the same thing we want to be at this level which means I need

[1:14:45] to do this per month this per day which means I need to have costs at this and revenue at this it's very I actually had it down per hour I knew my hour that I needed to drive to go hit my one year goal and that forecast was extremely helpful put together relatively inexpensively but I would have hired a CFO faster okay these are like year five for most people if you're watching this but really important for scale and to like do real numbers and I say CFO actually um probably year one really yeah I need a CFO I would have one a year at year one certainly I mean we talked

[1:15:19] about your level absolutely yeah well I would have one I probably had a CFO uh uh for actual CFO at I was making call it 150 000 profit Revenue was probably 250. so about a quarter million we're out of over a hundred thousand dollars of caught money to myself it was a lot easier to justify call it two to three grand five grand for the year let's say of a fractional CFL okay I think this money will spot great advice thank you okay I'm gonna ask a selfish question now kind of a left turn though do have you ever heard of sub Affiliates sub Affiliates or affiliate tree where

[1:15:53] essentially you would let people like you would build out that exact you'd give them the ad give them the funnel and you're basically just hiring media buyers and you get a fraction you just like split the revenue so they could do more scale if you're like say you have like a 20 profit margin per lead you'd give them 10. and you know you have all the data yes okay so a network is that the term uh yes that's what I would call it but you sub affiliate might be the corrector you're more experienced than me I don't know no but you also have like Ecom okay yeah you might be correct

[1:16:23] but you never tried that I never brokered people's traffic because okay I wanted to control it on my end here's the problem with it's like hiring an affiliate an affiliate hiring affiliate basically for me we'll use Network you call it sub Affiliates sub Affiliates or network problem is like when I just describe it was like I want to get the [ __ ] away from them as quick as possible because they eat up Margin I don't think they add a ton of value and directly to the end offer so for me I was over the network because even if I got something off of scale with a sub

[1:16:52] affiliate you guys are competing for traffic when it's paid almost too um it's just like let's let's say you're my let's say um uh Jeff is the chair owner on the affiliate you're my sub affiliate Jeff pays me 50. I pay you 30. you we start cranking you start crushing sales like how long do you want to pay my 20 toll tax when you want to talk to Jeff immediately okay so we briefly touched on the tools you use like using Facebook ads and then building on WordPress and all that but were there any other like communication tools you said twilio for SMS but anything internally that you use that helped yeah

[1:17:32] slack um email of course um you know I think this isn't necessarily tools but um we would have especially with the virtual team Monday morning meetings we have every morning or every Monday excuse me where it's just a touch base the entire team no matter what the size was on there I I really like that that Cadence of communication um some other Cool Tools in general are something called Boomerang on Gmail basically in schedule emails out um and like if then response as well so that's just a unless you didn't even need like a autoresponder like an active campaign or anything just yeah Boomerang and Gmail I guess it's more like when I

[1:18:08] was managing um when we had the Ad Agency like I I like schedule something out to go out at like Saturday night at like 11 pm so that my customer thought I was like freaking busted for your clients yeah but it's a cool it's a cool tool tool look look at that I'm trying to go there twilio anything text message Auto auto callback is all built on top of twilio even if you go to like um another company they uh a lot of these companies are built on top of twilio so um but what I would do um more importantly and I've been doing this a lot with like AI stuff

[1:18:40] is pay attention to like inefficiencies in your day or your business and uh do a Google search I know that sounds so funny but like uh okay like uh the chair stuff like okay I want to know how to get testimonial videos better like and I just start googling around like maybe set like an hour on a Sunday so like for random research stuff I'll find some really badass tools really about us tools for for stuff like that like AI based yeah just speaking my language yeah yeah for me it's like AI base like at one point I was like I wonder if I could find something like some YouTube videos

[1:19:13] right and like it's like right at first like Chad GTP was getting like uh excuse me was getting um uh was getting a little bit more mainstream I was like I wonder if there's anything that'll sum up the the YouTube videos and I was literally at one point like took the transcription from the video and then copy and pasted in there and I'd get like a download I'd be like oh sweet you know what I mean like so obviously that now there's like an extension and stuff like that oh yeah but the point of me saying that was like where is there like inefficiencies on like Andrew huberman

[1:19:39] three hour podcast I'm like I'm not or Joe Rogan I'm not gonna listen to that for three hours but can I get the distilled best pieces and things like that so hey I'm going on a really weird change this is important though especially with AI because for sure these are going to be edges that we talk about 15 minutes a day is a big deal so every tool have an AI tool potentially so I would spend a lot of time um um and my belief is the benefit of AI will be the uh the data that the model's built on yep number one and then two the

[1:20:10] ability first to dream up how to use and leverage it I think it's a commodity yeah it's an unbelievably powerful tool cool I don't think anyone listening even if you're a plumber needs to learn how to build AI I think you you need to be thinking about what how does it work and where where could it be applied to the inefficiencies in my life and that's maybe a little bit more like uh Modern Day present day example that's helpful for people but even like in general businesses where's what else is there inefficiency in my day and then I go seek out tools for that right I got

[1:20:40] VA these will basically replace va's very soon that level first so really important for people to be aware of have a ton of videos on my channel but uh what about like a CRM like could use like notion do you say monday.com or you said Monday meetings Monday morning meet okay use Monday um.com as well too CRM for actual customers we never were like back to the Rolls Royce like the max customers I ever had at the agency was 25 maybe 30 Ops and then at the legion business that was acquired like 16 so I never like add I used um I think like pipes if I'm not

[1:21:13] mistaken Ops pipes.ai or something like that okay oh cooler uh for uh for me for managing like um like like lead flow things like that but okay admitted they didn't have like 100 person um uh which I'm gonna call it like uh like uh customer less than I was yeah and then I was targeting like a few big carriers yeah I guess you didn't really collect emails even that much for your no leads but back to your um I we use and it might be too specific for my space but leads pedia okay was the name of software for like uh CRM for leads excuse me you're correct twilio I

[1:21:46] believe don't quote me on this is a little two in the weeds for for me right now but I think twilio also has a CRM on phone numbers don't call me on that but I believe that's what we use I don't know um then I had one other one I was going to share with you back here I think about it okay sounds good okay so now I want to transition to what you're doing now because it's cool as [ __ ] to me like you're like literally like living like the dream in a way thank you but basically he's made enough money where he doesn't ever have to technically work

[1:22:13] again I would say that's safe to say and so now you've picked up a complete new skill and you just dj.edc as like a DJ on like the main stage which is so cool to me and I did watch a little bit of another podcast and it seemed like it wasn't necessarily something that you were always like this wasn't like in the plan from like I'm gonna I want to be a DJ but be a DJI you need a master affiliate marketing get Financial Freedom then I can chase my dream it was more so like the sound I'm I sold my business this kind of sounds interesting

[1:22:41] and I don't know anything about it yeah so tell me about that Journey because that's so cool yeah dude thank you uh so this will get a little more so so first um interesting thing is ruin uh my business was acquired um I had a new business which was managing my finances so I had to and I think anyone who's making you know relatively significant money I don't think you need to have like a massive liquidity event I think that I ignored that being in my second business for too too long because it's uh arguably even a more important business depending on how much money you've made

[1:23:10] because you already have the cash first trying to go make more cash right if that makes sense on it so um I I did what I always hire a mentor we talked about that right away I love peer-to-peer learning groups I joined a group called like tiger 21 before that oh really that's cool if you're in Tiger 21 oh you know it yeah yes yeah I know I love it I love it I love that group so I was in uh when my business was under 250k in Revenue I was in EO EO accelerator uh entrepreneur organization accelerator I would recommend that for business even 5 million below but it's

[1:23:36] really the 250k and up is the is the excuse me 250k to a million is the size business that a million plus called EO within 13 million plus called YPO and then after a certain amount of assets you're able to did you join YPO yeah I was in YPO oh [ __ ] I want to talk about that okay oh cool yeah yeah but don't but I I that's I've been doing that for 12 years these peer-to-peer even Tony Robbins Platinum partner group like these peer-to-peer learning groups I think are really important I I just want to note that but um uh through as being like a transition for

[1:24:06] that like something that I like was navigating yeah last year um so that's one and then you mentioned that the DJing stuff I I have a maybe uh what did you call it psychotically psychotically intentional psychotically intentional I I like that it's kind of very very triggering word I like it um but I I had this like um I believe this like exists for everyone whether you're I don't know if you have to be religious or philosophical or in a Karma or what it doesn't matter whatever it is but like anyone who's ever like visualized like a free throw before you know before you you know yeah and then you have a higher

[1:24:39] chance of making it I feel it going in the hood yeah I'm a big believer and so um I just had this like thought like um maybe like two years ago I was like okay if it's I believe most people delusionalize worst case scenarios so I believe we make up completely the worst case scenario of off of fear not everyone but it's our human instinct like survival thing yeah her survival but if most of that shit's made up and if you reflect back and yeah yes I'm missing that none of that hap less than one percent of that ever happens right certainly less than ten percent let's go

[1:25:16] there's making yourself miserable in your mind so why not be unbelievably delusional on what could happen positively so like even like like today like I don't it's not you know people meditation I woke up for five minutes and I delusionalized like the best day ever I had like a uh and it's just like so out there yeah and insane it could be that there was a crowd of 10 000 people in your office when I'm talking and they're all business owners they all went on to wait 10 000 people each and the magnitude of impact was growth so much and all the families that and I

[1:25:48] just like I'm going down a rabbit hole just like unbelievable delusionally made up [ __ ] which sounds funny but we do it all day long on the negative so why not do it positively so I like thinking about I did it a year or two ago I said what's something that's just like out there that I could do and I was like I want to meet Les Brown I don't know if any less brown is but he's a football coach you know that's less mild no no it's okay Les Brown's like um our grandparents her parents like Tony Robbins like okay okay so he's like a

[1:26:13] motivational speaker he's unbelievable and I'm a big big fan of his work and I was like I want to meet um so then I I just put it in motion I started you know hiring someone who would know someone who did something uh someone who's been in touch with him before I started reaching again resourcefully Network all this up so Bill next you know I'm interviewing him in a podcast that I started a podcast just because I wanted to there you go it was like totally intentional yeah intentional but I don't know podcast I got a podcast can I interview you oh and by the way you know so and I got

[1:26:42] to fly out of meet him in Atlanta so I was like okay so if anyone listening comes with a basis that if you believe that you can be or do whatever you want and I do believe that anyone at any level can be or do whatever we want and I also believe that if you were born in the United States of America 100 you are overly overly in the one percent month you know I don't care if you make minimum wage working at McDonald's you're in the one percent I I truly believe that you were gifted by God grace whatever whatever you want to put it to to be here you are unbelievably at

[1:27:13] a Advantage being born in this day and age and where you're born do you have the internet time everyone's everyone's equal on that so that that you can't say I don't have enough time everyone has the same amount of time internet now has broken down any barriers of knowledge so you can't say I don't know I don't know you could know you could figure it out so there's there's no barriers to get to to where you were to where you want to go so anyway all that being said I I had that that thought and I was just at a music festival and I really love it I've never

[1:27:44] done a drug in my life I I drank once in a while so why not you haven't done LSD or anything dude oh I I haven't cut off that I I potentially one day would would look at like Ayahuasca or mushrooms or something I know there's a lot of data around and I have no judgment around any any or anything around that I've literally never done drawing in my life um but I love EDM music festivals I don't know it's not the energy I just love love it's just like a good good place 100 that was that one and I said you know what if if my basis that I could be or

[1:28:14] do whatever I want is true if I want to be do that and for me a goal was to play at a major Music Festival EDC and let's put in a motion wouldn't that be fun I've never played an instrument wouldn't that be fun I don't know music theory I don't know anything and it was it's almost like a um building trust with myself to show myself that I can do like do what you say you're gonna do in a way like myself like selfishly it sounds like uh it sounds like kind of egotistical but like I did it to show I I like doing things

[1:28:44] to show myself that it's a new Mountain too that's exactly right yeah so for for the the chase of a new Mountain starting at zero and I understand that's naive I I had resources of of people and and money and other things like that so to say at zero is not correct you're too humble it's not but to start at a low level knowledge wise you were a zero start at a low level or something and build it up and um it was was really uh appealing well it's not I mean I feel like it's very common for people at your level or in my world of entrepreneurs

[1:29:15] it's like it's not about the end goal it's not about the exit the company then you're happy forever it's like literally the act of just learning working toward something and trying to achieve that one endpoint so that makes that's why I think it's so cool and I'll thank you and I'll prove it to you if you ever buy a pair of shoes that you think is [ __ ] awesome and then yeah a month later either in the back of your closet three more things Big Lots of right and Things become relative cars cars especially cars but how about a goal have you ever wanted to run for me you

[1:29:40] know a marathon a triathlon you work for months and you [ __ ] change your whole lifestyle all this and then you cross the finish line how long is that good feeling last does it last a year a month a week a day an hour for most people it's between an hour and a week that the good feeling last so I realized the beautiful thing about life is for me meaning life is to grow and to give so to continuously grow in any categories and growth equals happiness for me so growing in anything is me being happy it's not the end result it's not right angle so to your

[1:30:09] point finding new things to grow in is happy and it's I said fun it's fun and it makes me happy to grow in any category in any level if as long as I went to bed saying I grew today I had a pretty damn good day and it has and that also removes the basis of money or material or outcomes it's it's a very achievable outcome and I I found I've had a lot more joy in life focused on rowing versus things and stuff because it becomes relative and who cares anyway it's all [ __ ] I think it's really important because most people chase money and think and it's

[1:30:43] normal until you've experienced it and I think everyone goes through this but I think one thing that I've learned that it's like so true now it's like to be happy you've seen like 30 minutes of sunlight good relationships people you care about so you're actively engaged with and then working on something that you find meaningful or important now listen there's no judgment that's not happiness yes and there's no and you mentioned that people finding that because so I can I can see it on the other end of the screaming now people going oh easy for you [ __ ] right you know yeah yeah you know my dad's retired cop and my PD

[1:31:12] cop my mom worked my elementary school so I was not gifted economically my I I I I worked very hard I had no investment for anyone I never raised outside funds I went from zero to where I am today that's not to brag that's to anyone say no easy for you obsessive learning like obsessively that is the key yeah yeah 100 where was I where was I going with that um there's something on the growth the growth comp how you can achieve maybe maybe that's what it was um oh just oh excuse me I was saying like if someone's focused on like material things no judgment

[1:31:47] no fault I think I think you will find and if you reflect enough like you asked me actually you were like I think when we first started you like were you ever like uh selfish with things and like course I had a go I had a goal to make six figures I would go to make a hundred thousand dollars I did it and it was probably the longest stint I've ever I'll call it depression's not the right word but like low feeling same because I did it and I was like now what and then now what feeling is very real and you everyone listening has experienced it

[1:32:14] After High School you experienced it maybe after an accomplishment any accomplishment any life-changing event after college now what and that time period is actually really interesting to study in Psychology I think it's Michael Jordan who talks about the first championship's not the hardest it's the second third fourth fifth and sixth the sixth one was the hardest because you did it so the motivation to win the championship million and you have every fruit like to be a millionaire that's so easy to find the motivation for that stuff it's when you've experienced it and you've felt that emptiness of now what there's a lot of self-growth that comes during that time

[1:32:50] period to go win it again and again and again and again and I love studying people that are lifelong winners in multiple categories Arnold Schwarzenegger as an example it's one in multiple categories his entire life not interested in learning someone who had one exit in a business or kind of has a great relationship for two three years I want to meet someone who's had a 50-year relationship and they had so that's a six that's successful to me it was a long-term sustainable success those are the people I want to study and learn and learn from and this is this is no different so anyway so to close at

[1:33:23] that point if you want a Lamborghini if you want this do it climb the mountain but awesome if that motivates you I think finding out earlier that that it's a higher octane fuel to be I told you I was motivated for um uh freedom of time at first for myself truly and I was motivated for my brother to not have to ever work I joke like have a dick boss and everyone in my brother low quality ladies my best friend he's so close to me and one day we'll come and I was like [ __ ] I had a boss I was a little bit meaner

[1:33:55] and I was like this he's going to have this one and that I couldn't sleep with it like I almost get like when I think about that I couldn't sleep with thinking that the person who's closest to me my brother is going to experience a low quality of life and he can do something about it talk about that for [ __ ] fuel versus someone wanting a new pair of [ __ ] Christians right batons [ __ ] you I'm gonna work 16 hours a day seven days a week I'm gonna outwork the hell out of you because I I got so much more sustainable so think I ask you a

[1:34:22] question on that is this your brother specifically yeah why do you feel accountable for him and why would you not say maybe let's say he should get off his ass and work as hard as me too like why don't you think he should be you're equal in a way you know or hold him to that expectation because I'm his older brother um maybe I'm close to him nothing you should think that way by any means just because I'm the same way with my close friends uh learning for me is I can't remember the book there's a Triad for it um but it's basically like being the hero versus a coach and I've

[1:34:50] actually had to learn part of my learning process over the last year as being more of a coach than a hero so what you just said like being a savior is actually an egotistical thing too when you actually break it down but you know how teach a man to fish versus like you know give them fish and for a lot of my life I've I've done that my littlest brother not even that brother I have given a lot to and I've actually done him a really bad disservice I've had that experience spoiling and giving and and really robbed him of his um uh fulfillment and that's been that's

[1:35:23] been a really that's something I'm actively getting better at and learning so so to answer your question I'm still working through that uh not being called a hero uh and and being more of a coach and being more allowing people to find their own path and help guide them or coach them but not be I'm 100 this the Savior type as well like where I feel like my closest friend is the one who like stuck with me throughout all my ups and downs supported me I like feel responsible for so I could definitely see it being an ego thing and it's super beautiful there's nothing to be ashamed of for

[1:35:50] that but it's all good intent it's great intent but there's a middle ground of where you're actually serving serving them where they where you're robbing them a fulfillment thing that's why I ask because I have experienced that or they like kind of get comfortable or expect it now or they just yeah I mean be a selfish Pig Yeah but learning I think I think there's a good yeah there's there's a good number okay cool but so then just back to the DJ thing are you still pursuing that or is that just like I want to see if I could perform once and then I had the

[1:36:17] experience it was fun but not like something you loved to death you know interesting time in first talking because my goal was to play the major Music Festival I did in May at EDC like you mentioned um it's almost like what I mentioned like the graduating college selling a business you know right where I'm kind of figuring out how I feel right now about that do I put another bar there or do we talked a little bit about like my higher aspirations in in business that that I'll I'll be pursuing as well so an interesting transition where I think I'm uh I I'm still getting Clarity on that

[1:36:52] answer yeah um but it's actually a pretty beautiful to have that time period for myself right now with what we're talking about where you hit that Milestone of for someone it's a Lamborghini for me it was it was playing at this thing where studying this time period of like growth for yourself like I've got to learn like and do a lot of introspective thinking like why am I doing this what right or do I want what impact does that make what does that do for me yeah the DJ lifestyle is a probably a different one I can see how that has big implications sure and the difference from anything

[1:37:19] for me like you probably hit like that top 10 maybe top one percent but the difference from that to the top point one percent is I want to do gruel it exactly and then that's and you know it's funny you mentioned that like to to actually answer that a little bit more in depth like you know let's just let's say okay I'm in the top 10 maybe I'm not even close but maybe in my head I'm out where I wanted to go right like to a good level like to go perform at a made stage and have major labels sign you and all this am I five ten years away and

[1:37:47] full-time commitment to yeah then you've got people working around you and you let them down is that my actual goal and my goal is not to be a world famous DJ this is a really fun thing for me to do and experience and really the show actually I talked about my little brother the coaching I wanted to show him you could you could be or do whatever you want that's really cool so that was actually talking about my motivation again too was not to have to to be cool and fans it was actually to show my little brother that he could do whatever the hell that's awesome Manny that's awesome

[1:38:14] so that was that was a true truthfully that has been my motivation and and I I can answer with certainty my motivation is not to what you just said go to the one percent to the next level on there which is probably my answer and what I should do now is kind of start some setting it uh but I do have major aspirations to make a huge impact in the world and run a billion dollar evaluation business not because I want to be a billionaire not because I want to be filthy rich but because I believe you need to add enough value to the market in order to be more that kind of

[1:38:43] valuation at that point so you need to add enough value to customer shareholders employees and team to be valued at a billion dollars you need to add a billion dollars worth of value to the world for a lot better world so if you back up you look at business as a spiritual game it it it very much like you have to deliver like we talked about deliver value consistently to your customers to your employees to your vendors to to all these people in order to make money like at the end of the day no one's giving pay you money unless you win the lottery to you may are making

[1:39:13] the money you've made because of the value you've added to the world again to your team 100 customers all these people to me that's very spiritual so I have a benchmark and goal of a billion dollar evaluation because I want to add a billion dollars worth of value to the world probably in mental health is is where it will be we talked a little bit about it with before so that that's my next iteration next chapter in life we'll be focused on that as I start sun setting kind of this cool fun called semi I don't know if distraction is the right word but fun passion

[1:39:38] project while also running the business of my investments while also figuring out what I'm going to do next in business and I really want to emphasize this point for anyone watching this especially if you're like on your come up or your beginning or wherever you are and you haven't really achieved that level the million dollar level you think you need to be people do it for Lambos they do it for these watches or a nice house or even to just get laid and they think that once you have these material things that's going to help you get a girl but in reality what you learn is because you

[1:40:04] see all these successful people with girls or with all these nice things a great life what you learn once you get money is it wasn't the money those are in and of themselves skills you have to learn and the people that have money have now had the time to learn those skills to get good at whatever they chose so the money had no correlation so if those are things you want sit down ask yourself what do you value what do you really want then just get good at those things because money will come eventually once you're good at those things and you try to provide that back

[1:40:29] in the world through value I think the greatest question is uh who do I need to become to get X right and that's a totally different frame than what do I need to do or or these other or feeling insurmountable like who do I need to if you want a Lamborghini who do I need to become in order to get that and immediately start thinking about habits and discipline and all these other things and that really make you into a right good person I I believe not everyone no I agree but but to a better person you really work on yourself when you ask yourself who do I need to become

[1:41:02] to get X I think that's the question I would go to whatever that aspiration is would I and I even I'm asking myself that today if I want to run a billion dollar valuation business and mental health who do I need to become in order to do that what actions do I need to take differently how do I need to think differently how can I invest in myself differently in order to be ready for that which will happen it will materialize who do I need to become in order to get there and um that that's a really empowering question that's so important and that's a mental framework

[1:41:29] that I've had for anyone listening need to adopt this but constantly anytime I'm making a decision I constantly ask myself is this a decision that a top performing person would make is this is this something that a top performing person would do and then I can make decisions so quickly I shouldn't eat a Pop-Tart no it's a top of one person would nine to Pop Tart so dude by far my favorite podcast and I'll put that in the podcast Anthony sarandria guys follow him on social media where can they find you in Instagram I uh I try and respond I'm not trying I do respond to every single person who sounds a mess

[1:41:59] that's how I got him on this podcast I think that takes me a little bit of time but I um this is really fun for me I've had so many podcasts and mentors and people that have I've learned from that I wouldn't be even a quarter of Twitter I am today so this is a really really fun for me to pay it forward I appreciate you sharing it brother of course thank you so much of course Bubba

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