# The Future of Personal Branding (Do This Before 2027) w/ Briar Cochran | #23

Channel: Owen Nurminen
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp3Uu2CIzPY
Duration: 1 hr 8 min
Language: English
Words: 14599
Transcript page: https://viewrankai.com/tools/youtube-transcript/Vp3Uu2CIzPY

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[0:00] All right. So, we're in Omaha in some corn fields. Why are we here, Brier? Why Omaha? The the simple answer is because I just settled down with family here and family matters more than business to me. And so, you know, if I got to make a couple less dollars in my lifetime, but I get to love my wife by keeping her next to family, get to raise kids next to cousins, and be within two hours of my family. Like that's an easy trade-off for me than being in what Miami and just like being in the clubs and stuff like that. It's an easy trade-off. The simple

[0:31] life, too. There they say Omaha's the good life, baby. That's the That's the slogan. It's simple, man. You get You go to Whole Foods, come home, you eat your dinner. We got Whole Foods in Miami. Yeah, but it's [laughter] just different. It's different. You don't strike me as a simple life guy, though, because what you built is completely different. So, what are you

[0:46] working on right now? Yeah, we're going on Oakland Content Agency. It's basically a creative director agency. Um, the point is we come in as basically a fractional head of content into your business. We run your short form and your long form from front to back. All you do is show up to the camera and record. Not many people are filling this gap specifically on a personal brand side. Um,

[1:06] so what's your thesis around content? Like why this? What do you think is so important about it? Yeah, I mean I think a personal brand is one of the best assets you can have in 2026, right? Like I have a mentor who has a hundred million dollar real estate portfolio and he has 500,000 Instagram followers. I asked him if you could only have one, you had to restart. He would

[1:26] say 500,000 Instagram followers, right? And so for these businesses, business owners, personal brand is what's going to separate them. A lot of people think a personal brand is the moat or excuse me, it's keyman risk. What we're noticing is it's actually the opposite. We're seeing more and more companies, an exit just happened this year where uh they got a higher multiple because it was built on the back of a creator because people think personal brands are going to be harder to build as time goes. So, they're becoming more and more valuable and there's just kind of a gap in the market where no one really knows

[1:53] what the hell they're doing here. So, it's like why not come in and just like take some genuine marketing prowess to the personal brand world. So, So, who are some of the clients you've worked with and some numbers that you've uh been able to achieve? Yeah, we I might have to get a little

[2:06] Well, you can kind of hide the names. Yeah, I'll I'll say him. Uh, you know, biggest client is Chris Williamson, seventh biggest podcast in the world. We came in and, uh, they were doing 42 million views a month. And it's not bad. No, it's amazing. And they're doing 100, we had 99.8 million views uh, probably two months after coming in. It's been up to the right every single time. Um, and that's like so cool because you're you're really like impacting culture with him. Uh, we have two clients doing a million dollars a month, smaller personal brands, but phenomenal businesses on the back end. And then my

[2:41] personal specialty, I came from an agency where I got to work with Jaco Willink, Gary Brea, Chris Bumstead, few other people, not Oakland related, but people I've worked with. We were just talking about Joo and Extreme Ownership in that book. Do you have any like book favorites you've been reading? Yeah, dude. I my top five favorite books probably close to an order is number one, mastery. if you don't know what

[3:02] you're supposed to do with your life. Number two is cash advertising. Cash advertising to me, if you want to be a creator, cash advertising is the best book to speed up your marketing prowess, your hooks, your scripting, whatever. Number three is Unreasonable Hospitality. In a world where everyone's cutting corners in their products and services and their apps and their agency product, unreasonable hospitality talks about how do you overd deliver and really stand out by doing a great job rather than cutting corners, being bad

[3:34] at communicating, stuff like that. Number four, the Bible. This is obviously number one, but I'll I'll I'll leave it in here specifically. Like for me, what's been resonating is the beginning of Job and the end of Job. It's this guy who literally is the richest man in the world. and uh gets everything taken away from him and is still honoring the Lord. And uh you know, I just ask myself that all the time like if everything got stripped away, would I still honor the Lord? Um and then the last book that we were just talking about is Steve Jobs in Exile. It talks about the 12 years where he gets

[4:04] kicked out of Apple. 12 years. Imagine taking a 12- year detour and still being one of the most successful business owners in the world. It's just like, dude, we just got to stay on the course long enough and let compounding take effect and you can still take a 12year detour and build a multi-billion dollar company. Those are some good wrecks, bro. There there's a couple things you could say about Steve Jobs with his exile that he did improve and he did reflect a little bit. you know, hate to sit. Mark Andre's been talking about like maxing a lot lately. And I think I think what he meant is ruminating and

[4:41] being sad about things, but I think most successful people I know, they do think and reflect in a positive way. Like, you know, do you feel like he's wrong about that? He says like he never looks backwards. Yeah, it's crazy. How can you How's that possible? Yeah, I think he's like trying to say like he he's just always moving forward, which is good. Everyone does that, though. Yeah. You know, I mean, dude, I'm not his I'm not that successful. So, I don't know. He might be right. He

[5:06] might be right. Just never think about it. Yeah. I am I'm an extremely introspective person. Like, I have like a high level of like self-shame and self-hatred and like those are some like demons that I got to process so I don't make decisions. Yeah. Out of insecurity. I've been reading a book lately called

[5:26] Humility and I forget the author's name. Dude, you you posted it. It's by um Andrew Murray. Andrew Murray. I read it before. I read it like probably four or five years ago. 100 pages. Yeah. One of the most impactful books for me because Wait, can I try to This is the quote where it says, "Humility is not thinking of yourself less or not thinking of yourself thinking less of yourself. It's

[5:44] thinking of yourself less." Yeah. And you know, it kind of goes into Job as well because Job started feeling severe pain because he kept thinking of himself um a lot instead of kind of just being grateful to even be alive. You know what I mean? Like you could be in the car with someone that you love, but like they say something or they're bothering

[6:01] you. And that is a much preferable outcome to them, you know, getting hit by a car or something and not being around. And it it's it's like just thinking of yourself less and how fortunate you are, I think. Um and then also with Job, so funny that uh you know, he's he's like, "Why is God doing this to me?" I mean, like kind of, you know, so he was kind of getting close to like doubt, a little bit of doubt, you know, which of course um and then God just goes on like a three-page rant and is like, you know, did you make the plan like you do not

[6:29] understand how this all works together? I think that's really important for entrepreneurs because Steve Jobs even was probably not as successful. Um his first stint at Apple, I mean, obviously successful, but the second stint was way better and it could have been because of that overarching plan. Um, and you know, if I look at a company like Apple, I think it's a huge net positive on the

[6:46] world, on all of us. Um, and maybe Steve needed that new level of development to become an actual better CEO. I think Peter Teal says that Steve um succeeded despite like the angry, angsty kind of stuff he had when he was younger, when he wasn't like the best leader ever because he was such a visionary and could tie people together, but then he became a little more well-rounded later on. So, bad things are going to happen, but they should be for your benefit. I'm curious to your point like Steve has this balance of like there like we talk about cleaners someone who's like going to push the

[7:22] envelope being a player absolutely ruthless killer at what point because some people would argue that like Steve is like that level of success is rooted in an identity issue and maybe that the healthy people in the world don't build companies like that and I think there's something to be said about that to be honest with you.

[7:44] Elon's another great example. But you know I am Christian. The viewpoint I have is you can operate from that insecurity painful place or you can op operate from like an overflowing of love and what you should be doing to benefit the world. And do you think operating from an overflow of love you can get to the same

[8:00] level of success? I think so. I think there's probably a lot of people that have successful businesses that come from that place as well. but that successful. I'd have to look into, you know, more more stories and stuff. Um, but I would assume, yeah, there's there's probably all types of different personality types that make it work just based on like who

[8:19] they are, you know. I agree. So, I think it's totally possible. There's the uh it's one of the Davis podcasts. I think it's um Daniel E, the Spotify founder, and he says there's no right way to do it. Yeah. Did you see the playlist, the show about uh Spotify? I like it's their history. I have seen it and heard about it. I've

[8:41] never listened to it. It's it's good. Um D uh Daniel Ek was kind of like that angsty, fiery entrepreneur because the the podcast episode with Senra, he seems so chill, laidback, symbolic guys from Sweden, you know? Um but like apparently he was also super fiery and I think there's it's kind of like a you know they say the best people kind of have both, you know what I mean? So, you know what's crazy? This is a complete side note. You know who Sean

[9:08] Parker is? Yeah. Founder of Napster. You know, he's like he was at the beginning stages of Spotify and he's on that podcast. No way. Yeah. Like if you go back to like season one or like early days, like Sean Parker's like randomly like I think anything with music back then, he was like the guy just in it. Yeah. Like Limewire, like

[9:25] all of it. Just everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you personal branding right now, right? Maybe not quite. Okay. So, how did you get in touch with Chris Williamson and his team? Uh yeah. So, one of my close friends, Sky Tan, Sky, you're the man. He's also he's a competitor, too. Short form content agency. Uh had a one of the most insane months of all time for his personal brand. Went from maybe 14,000 to 114,000

[9:48] in like 45 days. So, added like 100,000 followers. Chris reaches out to him was like, "Yo, I need a creative director." This guy's like, "I am literally getting 40 leads a day." Like, Brian, I need help. I hop in. We're basically trying to get him a creative director, but everyone's kind of twiddling their thumbs. Nothing's happening. I connect him with a guy named Grant Owen, who Grant, love you, Grant, absolute stud, probably like my closest friend in the space. And Grant applies, uh, shuts down his agency, was a competitor, was about to work for Chris, or was in was in a deep interview process, ends up working for Jefferson

[10:21] Fischer, who Jefferson Fisher right now is averaging close to 200 million views a month per platform or across platforms. So, Grant is killing it. And when he accepted that job with Jefferson, Chris and Grant got really tight. And then Chris was kind of like, "Yo, Sky and Brier are like dropping the ball. Like, these guys are so slow at helping me." Brier introduced me to

[10:41] Grant. Grant, you seem like an A player. Grant, how about you help me find the right person? Grant comes in and is given 45 days to find this creative director. Found it. A guy named Kyle. And Kyle came from Mr. Beast. Absolute stud. Long story short, they Kyle was too qualified to be a creative director. So instead of going for a creative director, we split it. Basically like a

[11:01] chief of staff and then an agency. So he didn't want to do agency because he wanted the creative director. But whenever you go head of content to kind of be a bridge, you're willing to maybe Yeah. Something's going to be, you know, there's a lot of things have to be done, you know. Yeah. Because the chief of staff is is

[11:16] managing so much, right? So then it makes a little bit sense. Okay. Well, maybe we do actually work with the agency. So that's where I worked back in. We were in a competition for another agency for the first two months. We won that competition and um No name drop for them, huh? [laughter] I'm just kidding. No, I think we're I I don't know. I love

[11:34] that person a ton. Yeah. I I think like we have like I don't know if our relationship will ever be the same. I hope it does. Like he's like an absolute savage and we were actually tight and I mean it's not it just happens, bro. One of my team members was some people would say was poached

[11:53] from his team. Oh, which was not the case. Not the case. That happened the exact same week as the competition ending. And so I don't know if we'll be able to recover that relationship, but I if you see this dude like I want to still to chill. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, life is too short, bro. Like really like to hold any

[12:11] grudges or anything. But then it's kind of like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were rivals. Like they weren't just like having dinner together. Yeah. But Bill Gates sucked that you know? Like I mean he had there's terrible stories. I'm sure Steve Jobs probably had some as well, but I've heard some of those Bill Gates stories. I'm like,

[12:24] "Yeah, this guy is an asshole." Yeah. You know, um like doing unnecessary things. So, but ironically, I'm pretty sure Apple survived because of him, too. Like, yeah, there's that moment where like there was like two years there where they sold their operating system to Windows, just that little bridge. Yeah, that was his first year back to uh to

[12:40] Apple. It's so funny how it works. So, I'm curious about the podcast strategy for guys like Chris. Um, there's so many people that want to do podcasts. Like me being a non-personal brand person. Like really, I assumed it was a lot of clipping and listicles and like article kind of info stuff from like anything that wins you reformat like what how do you guys look at uh podcast strategy for

[13:03] guys like that? Yeah, this is kind of like a little bit of proprietary information. I can tell you offline. it. I really do think it's it's a little bit of like our secret sauce and it was given to me. Okay. And so it's kind of up to me to like shepherd the strategy that was given to

[13:17] me from Grant. And so the the short answer is um is is you you have a volume play and then you have a brand play and you find you find the combo between them. That works. Interesting. I I think I can put some of that together. Yeah. Because it's kind of similar for what we do with UGC agencies. Like if we're going to grow an app, we you need

[13:47] volume. You do a ton of creative volume. Um and then, you know, you kind of have to work in a little bit of the brand as well. Yeah. Exactly. So intriguing. Um I've never been to Omaha before. you know, running a content agency here seems like I thought it would be hard mode, but the fact that there's not a lot of distractions, you guys are so locked in. You know, what does it feel like to build in person with guys that

[14:12] are A players? It's still hard mode cuz like you in order to get the A players here, tough. You got to cast a really good vision. You gota I pay close to probably close to double triple triple double double probably 150 to start double in the first three months and an opportunity to make triple compared to my competitors whenever they they grow

[14:34] into the platform. It's brutal. It's actually I'm running 4x four. There's a chance for my CDs to make make 400% than my competitors. And but it's like if I'm a financially sound operator, why would I want not want my team to make more money? They have to, you know, I mean, it's the only way everyone wins. And so like the game is instead of buying APs and Porsche 911s, I'm just going to give that money to my

[15:02] team. Yeah. Well, it's coming. It will. I mean, the G the G's basically it. What kind of car do you want? I mean, I got it already, baby. Oh, yeah. That's I mean, that that GC cab is like Yeah, that's my dream car. It'll probably be the only I'm not a car guy. Like that's going to be my the hopefully I give that to Lyndon one day, my son. And that's the family car. I might get a daily driver like a Tesla just for longer

[15:20] commutes, but that's it. Your story. Um you're a wrestler. How did you go from college athlete to into this? Um yeah, so wrestled at Iowa State, which is like a top five school, maybe like playing, you know, football like Alabama or something like that. Maybe not quite Alabama, but you know. No, I've heard it's like one of the top

[15:41] schools. It's we're consistently the top five and I was the worst player on the team, the worst restaurant on the team, bottom four, bottom five. And it was kind of like an eye openener on what hard work hard work actually looks like. Yeah. Like from a small town, I got away with a lot of like

[15:54] bad habits. Bad habits. And my roommates were, you know, cleaner to the core. Dialed. I was like, it was the most eyeopening experience of my life being around my two roommates, Ian and Kanan. And those guys went on to have mid college careers. And I was like, is that crazy, bro? It was insane. So, what makes someone Is it just

[16:16] genetics or training or life experience? Like, how does if you were a cleaner, you have the best habits possible? Probably good genetics. Why are those guys mid athletes? I mean, obviously they're great, but comparison to the absolute best, like what separates them? Yeah. I think Intergame with tennis is a big one, right? Like, I don't know. Have you read

[16:33] that book before? No. It's this concept that like you can't let your mind get in your own way. So it's like if two people exact same genetics, exact same training, exact same skill set go against each other, the one who's competing with more freedom and less insecurity is going to smoke. Yeah. Like not even just by a little bit. Now, do you think that's like the personality trait of openness where you're open to new experiences or are you still like very rigid on what you

[16:59] want to do? No, it's a it's an extreme lack of feel fear of failure. Like I could lose the Olympic gold. I've been training my whole life for this and somehow I still hold it with I'm not afraid of of failing here versus other people they get to it and they're they want it so bad they tense up. What's that called in sports when

[17:22] you tense up? Um because it happens in golf like people tense up and they lose. Yeah. It's called the yips in baseball. I don't know if it's the same. Yips in golf too. Is it? But they the mental just it it all goes away. You know, my dad So, my dad got second at state and he said his biggest regrets whenever we got to the state championship. He was wrestling not to lose defensive. I'm not going to go score points. I'm just going to hope I don't

[17:42] make a mistake. Yeah. So, whenever I got to the state finals, he said, "You are here to wrestle to win, not to not lose." Yeah. So, I was like, "All right, whatever. I'm just going to go out and try to score 100 points on this guy." And he scored 100 14, which was like the second highest in the whole tournament. So, um, that's brutal for the championship to go

[18:01] like that for that guy. Well, dude, you feel bad? I was The bad news, bro, was I scored 14. Yeah. In like the first period, which is brutal. Insane. And then I got gassed and I almost lost the match. Oh, wow. So, I won 11 to 14, but there was one point where I was winning like 14-1, 12 to two or something like that. Yeah, it was

[18:19] or Yeah. So, something I don't know what it was, but yeah. No, it's so interesting. So I I think it comes down to a little bit more of your nature and your environment. For instance, your dad having that experience and being able to instill that in you. Huge advantage, right? Oh, massive huge advantage. And so I I also think I grew up in Southern California, like middle class, um you

[18:40] know, public school, like normal kid. And but my dad's friends had businesses that were, you know, successful or they sold. I got to go to their homes. Uh my mentor, I just went to his memorial like two weeks ago. He had a two crazy homes in in Newport Beach on the peninsula. And when I was young, my parents divorced. I would go stay there like a Wednesday nights and every other weekend with my dad. And I got to, you know, wake up in the morning, go out on the ocean and just be like, "Wow, people live like this. This is crazy." Um, so it kind of gives you, you know, if I

[19:10] didn't have that, I don't know if I would be if I would want that as much for, you know, I wouldn't even know that it's as possible. So the drive is more there because you get then then it's just like a short thing and then you got to go back to okay like you know no I can't buy basketball socks today. You

[19:25] know what I mean? Um so it's super interesting but I I think it's a little bit more of the nurture kind of. Yeah it can be for sure. Yeah. How did you meet your wife? Yeah so I worked for a church for three years as like an assistant college pastor and she was in the congregation.

[19:43] So through that. So you just went up to her? Yeah. I invited her to a dinner after a service one time. Nice. Like an evening service. She said yes. Then we went on a a doggy dog date. It was like my like coded way of like saying like, "Hey, you know, like I'm new to town or my dog needs a friend." Completely normal thing. My dog cannot

[20:07] have a friend. It's crazy how good you are at sales. And that was the line you went with. So that's uh yeah that's how we met. I was she was technically a student so she was a senior and it was my first year so we're one year apart but I like wasn't allowed to date a student so we had to like go through like weird like church politics of being like getting approval to date was like this is so weird but

[20:28] I've never heard of that. Yeah. So interesting. It was just because of like the staff. Yeah. There's like a it'd be like a boss trying to like with a with a inferior like a superior relationship. So, just making sure that I'm not like a predator, right? Praying on the congregations could be problematic in churches.

[20:45] Maybe I am. Predator and other things. [laughter] Okay. Um, you're you were going to be a pastor, right? That was your first thing. Do you feel like that translated well? Um, not a t. Yeah, a little bit. Yes, actually. I had already preached close to 40 sermons. I used to preach at a nursing home to like 20 dying people

[21:10] every week. Wow. For like a year. So whenever people was like, "Oh, you're so good at yapping." I had given 40 to 50 long form talks. Mh. Which if you chop that up into 90 second clips, like it's like hundreds hundreds of clips. Yeah. 300 short form pieces of content. And so I was like I was already finding my voice whenever I was starting to preach. like I wasn't nervous in front of crowds or cameras or whatever. That definitely helps. And then I also got a feedback loop of communication. I was able to see like, oh, people like it

[21:43] whenever I tell stories like this. People like it whenever I use listicles like this. People like it whenever there's oneliners like this. Didn't have any rational thought. This just kind of moved into my subconscious that like hindsight a year after making content I'm able to reflect on a little bit, but I wasn't like super strategical in

[22:05] like what it was. Yeah. No, I think the refs obviously helped for sure because when I saw your content, I think you had like a thousand or 2,000 followers. Dude, we were talking about this. You were one of the first people ever to DM me. Yeah. Like literally. I just I saw your content. I was like, "Oh man, this guy's going to be a killer, bro." So, I had to say something. You might have been the first like blue check or like any normal person over like 300 followers to ever DM me. I I have to go back and look, but yeah,

[22:29] for sure. Well, it's just, you know, pretty obvious to see, you know, and I think you can see that and it's just a matter of time for like reality to kind of catch up to it. You know what I mean? Kind of like reality trans surfing. You ever uh read that? I've I've saw someone else post it

[22:45] recently. I haven't read it. It's a good one. It's a good one. Definitely. There's like two versions. Read the short version. gets all the same points across. The long one is like egregious. Um, all right. If I wanted to just gonna ask like very simple questions that I hear. I want to go viral today. What do I do? Yeah. Well, first you need a high TAM

[23:06] topic. Okay. TAM stands for total addressable market. That means like it has to be able to appeal to billions of people. For example, how to get rich in 2026. Hi, Tam. How to work out an injured elbow via Pilates. Low TAM. You have to have an injured elbow. You have to be interested in Pilates. It's like maybe a couple tens of thousands of people have injured elbows and care about Pilates. So like you have to have high TAM. Number two is you have to have an extreme level of curiosity baked into it. Like people you have to open a loop so strong that people are inevitably going to watch

[23:43] 30 seconds into the video. And the third thing is there has to be some form of emotional resonance that's going to strike a conversation in the comments or in a group chat that they're going to send it to. Okay. So, what is this? What's a loop? An open loop would be like this.

[24:00] You're waiting for me to say what an open loop is. I still haven't even told you what it is, but you're waiting. But you're still waiting for it. Right. An open loop is whenever you leave out a piece of information and you move it later into the conversation. So we we would call this payoff like open loop and payoff would be the back end

[24:17] but yeah it's the exact same thing. Yeah. Interesting. Y it's so good. And it's annoying because I'll watch a video and I know that's happening but I'm like I got to watch I got to watch. And what's crazy is like because we're content marketers we see it. 99.9% of people don't know what's happening to them, right? Like we see it and it makes sense. Most people just drift right through. They're on autopilot. We call it uh gator mode. There's the gator mode and the judge mode. And whenever you're watching a video, you want to keep

[24:42] people in gator mode the whole time. Just what's gator mode? I am gator. I everything like zero thought. Like I'm just going to just consume zombie mode. I'm just going to consume mindlessly. But the instant you say something that's a little clickbaity, a little rage baity, a little not enough curiosity, their judge mode comes in and they almost like wake up for a second and think to themselves like, "Oh, this is I don't want to watch anymore. Yeah, I'm moving on." You know,

[25:05] whatever it is. Interesting. And so the goal with any good copywriter, any good marketer is to keep people in gator mode as long as possible where they're just munch munch munch munch munch munch munch. Zero thought, zero thought, zero thought, zero thought. You don't ever want to activate the judge. So with open loops, you got to be a

[25:21] little careful. Are there words that you avoid? Like for sure you tell clients like do not say this word in your video because it'll get too it's like too rage batty or too Yeah. Anything that's just like overdone. So like what I don't like is whenever people will say like here are five things and the last one you're

[25:34] going to have to hang around for it. It's the best one. Yeah. So, it's like if it's like if it just feels like a word or a phrase that people use a lot, like let's just avoid it and just use a different way to phrase it. But there's not like a specific word. It's just if it's too repetitive or too overdone, it's going to trigger the judge. I've heard this before. Oh, what are these

[25:53] people copying somebody? You know, so we just want to avoid that. So, what kind of formats do you think are working right now that are not overdone that people can exploit? Yeah. Well, I think a couple like evergreen formats are split screen mirror boards. So, it's like you're at the top of the screen. Some white board or diagram graphic below you. I don't think that is like going to get overdone

[26:10] anytime soon. Green screens, I think those will never really die. Um, what's the best way to do green screen, by the way? Do you just like load up a bunch of pictures in Cap Cut and then just like go through them or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's an easy way to do it. I think um depending on how complex it is, I'm even fine with just a solo diagram that you just talk over just one picture the whole time. Like that's the easiest one. If you wanted to

[26:31] immediately raise your views by 150%. Just take your talking heads, your yaps, and just go a single diagram green screen. Go to chatbt and say, "I want to make a diagram that explains this concept. It'll give you a diagram. You throw it in the back of your Tik Tok green screen and you're just pointing at

[26:49] it in the background, discussing it. Bonus points. Put your head open a loop. Put your head over part of the diagram so they can't see the full diagram. So it's curiosity on what the rest of the diagram is. Describe half of it. Reveal move your head to reveal the second half and you have not an insanely viral video but a better video. Your hook rate will be better. Average watch time will be

[27:10] better. Dude, you could like easily go from a,000 views to 10,000 views as a creator just by doing that simple tip and doing it well. Um, what do you what do you feel is better between horizontal and vertical formats? Doesn't matter. I don't have much preference there. It's I mean it's just hard to get like horizontal to me is a good switch up from a talking head or a yap. It's hard to get a lot of context on the

[27:35] screen horizontal. Mhm. Right. Especially on phone. Yeah. Right. So to me it's just a good switch up. Like instead of just doing a talking head where you're in a fake podcast studio, like just do a sick car edit where it's horizontal instead and you're already could be the exact same conversation. you're just already going to be 10 times more unique than like a stupid podcast

[27:53] studio vertical. One thing that's worked for me is having another person in my like shot, you know what I mean? Just having another person there is such a differentiator between everyone doing talking head stuff within my phone. Uh curious like your thoughts in terms of like I don't know like do do you do anything where you're like kind of faking prestige almost where you Yeah. Sometimes I mean you kind of want to be careful with it but like Brian Luben who's this creator that's crushing it right now and he he has a format that I've titled a wife hook. He's in the passenger seat. His wife starts with the

[28:21] phone. Well fiance starts with the phone and she just says like Brian can you explain to the audience like how you retired at 31 and it just turns it so good. And like she obviously, you know, has the zipper down a little bit and playing the whole thing. You don't have to do that.

[28:36] You don't have to do that. I'm pretty strongly against that. You know what I mean? I think it's bad for the brand. I always thought to myself, they're engaged now, but they were they're doing his boyfriend girlfriend. I always thought to myself like I used to do it with my ex-girlfriend. Like not like that extreme, but just having her in the videos. I wish I didn't even What happens if if this Yeah. I just don't like the idea of like I think it's just be your voice or people you work with like you know because then if like if you get a viral video then you become kind of reliant on

[29:02] that and then your relationship dynamics change like that's problematic unless you are so good at storytelling and controlling the narrative and you control the power dynamic that you can if if employee leaves you can craft the narrative and take the the the audience on a journey of why they left. Yeah. you hold the narrative and then it

[29:23] even creates more world building. But it's just not always a great idea. Yeah. But do you think you should talk about interesting? Do you think you should really talk about um like negatives? Like let's say an employee did leave. I mean if you talk about it it's very hard to come across in the right way even if you genuinely have great intentions because people like oh why are you even talking about this? Like you know it comes across more negative. Obviously good for views but I think it depends on where you're at in your business. If you are

[29:56] from zero to one, no, I don't think so. If you're already an established brand, yeah, and you're trying to go from like awareness to extreme loyalty. Yeah. Then it makes sense. Tyler Den have to like really Yeah. Do you know who Tyler Den is? No. Founder of Beehive, which is like a newsletter. They 50 million

[30:12] AR. They're great. Yeah. He's a savage. He has literally shared whenever like investors like pull out of funding like their CTO passed away, bro. And he he he he wrote through the whole thing. Co-founder CTO passed away 5 years into the company. Documented literally every emotion he was feeling and and this is all through email or for him

[30:33] and Twitter. Yeah. Okay. Twitter too. Twitter email. I think the email came later. He started off over on Twitter and documented the whole thing on Twitter and then moved over to his own email. Would you post short form content about that? Like Yeah. If your CTO died, if you are in loyalty building, this is so important. Like you should not do this unless you have like 50,000 followers

[30:51] and Mike like could I do it? What? Could I do it? Like Mike? Yeah, I think so. Like I think so. Like if you if you do it too early, you people have to care about you as an individual. And so if you if people do not care about you as an individual yet, then your whole job should be giving them so much insane value that they start to care about you as an individual. If you are in the comeup where people aren't like DMing you like dude like holy cow like you've changed my life or like you have the aura and like the followers and

[31:19] the engagement's really high then like you should not be focused on brand building. You should be focused on like your first initial growth phase. You know what I mean? Like the most important thing is product market fit. If you don't have product market fit and literally like we if we parallel this to business you don't product market fit there is zero reason for you to go hire a sales team. There's zero reason

[31:38] because people will turn to waste money. Exactly. There's zero reason for you to go hire whatever the next branch of the business is. You don't have content market fit. There's no reason for you to go do some type of world building. Does content market fit? I mean, we were talking about this. I know someone with 4K followers. Um, you know, averages maybe like 2 3k views a real extremely bought in audience. Like what where

[32:00] would you define content market fit as? Yeah, I would say that would it varies, but it's it's true. So just like do you feel good about the level of attachment you have to your audience? And the reality is probably 80% of the people listening to this are going to overestimate the level of attachment

[32:15] they have their audience. I think I have like close to none. Like I don't I mean I think people know me like in in the space but I like how would I build more of a you know attached audience? Um or or is that even desirable or should I focus more on like product and outcome

[32:31] and you know what I mean? No, I think you want an attached audience. Yeah. Like that's going to be a win no matter what. It's adding value. Adding value. Adding value. Adding value. If you think about it, like what's your favorite documentary you've ever read or ever ever watched? Um probably some 30 for 30. It literally doesn't matter because it was a hypothetical hypothe whatever it's called a

[32:54] whatever question. Yeah. It's because like documentaries are only made on people who have added an extreme amount of of value to the world or an event with so much extreme drama that there's a story around it. Like if you haven't done enough for like someone to want to quote unquote watch your documentary, then you need to go back and build the Michael Jordan career so that the last dance can happen. Okay, go build the question for you like let let's say it is the last dance. if there was no media or no marketing around it and we just didn't know about it, like would that still be worth him

[33:24] pursuing? Or could we just build world building and stories and content and social media and clipping and all this stuff? For instance, if you looked at total views for someone like Tate, he could easily do any documentary he wanted because he has so many views and clippers and all that. You know what I mean? Like, is it really the thing that you do or is it the fact that you

[33:42] distribute what you do? I think for 98% of people, it's a thing that you do. Some people who have an absort amount of money can pay for the distribution and distribute their way through a lack of story and a lack of value. Clviculars, the TJRs, the but I mean people in clvicular space love him so much, not even from the money, but because he's willing to go get surgeries and he's in the arena, so to speak, doing live streams all day, but the only reason you know about him is

[34:08] because he's insane. Because he's insane, which is value in itself. Yeah. Right. To me, that's the same value in the form of entertainment. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm cool with that. Like that's the same. But I think that's like not a great bar to shoot for for most people because you're a jester. Well, it depends. It depends. You can gesture your way to Logan Paul for sure. But I would say Logan Paul probably did it less from gesturing and

[34:28] more from like I don't see him now. Maybe he started that way, but I think now he's entrepreneur, you know, with a podcast. You disagree? Yeah. I mean, I think he's making a lot of money as a jester though. Like you just It's harder that way to me. It's just different. the the Japan thing in the forest like changed him and I think he went from that to like him like Paul runs uh you know their firm their but he was still like one of the biggest YouTubers for sure before but yeah I agree with you I just think it's different like clicier stuff does seem like gester maxing

[34:58] versus like if I watch a impulsive I feel like they're it's not that I agree 100% I don't know if it's world building or maybe just because we know the negatives and like stuff he had to go through to get there that was something that people talked about with entrepreneurs is they see someone with billions of dollars and they're like they have too much money, they should give it away. But Michael Jordan has a billion dollars and they're

[35:15] like, he deserves it. Yeah. You know, I think like what I'm trying to say is like the crazy storytelling and talking about the negatives and documenting your journey and like getting other people involved in your content is not what you should do if you are the beginning of your creator journey. The reason we care about impulsive and the characters and everything is because of everything that's happened up to that

[35:43] point. Yes. Right. But he's is also a little bit different because he's an entertainment creator. Same with Clvicular. Like he has done so much crazy things on his own and now he's going on this college tour or whatever and has Wap spending. He said he has unlimited clipping spend. Yeah. Because W pays for it or kick pays for

[36:00] it. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like he he didn't just start with that. Maybe he did. I don't know. Is there a a downside to doing too much world building or negative content where you're talking about the downsides too much? Like, oh man, this happened to me or this where you come across as too

[36:14] negative almost or no? Uh, am I an entrepreneur? Am I a creator? Like an influencer? That's a good question. I guess it it would depend I dep on the on the person. I would think for entrepreneurs probably not as much, but influencers probably shouldn't talk about negative stuff because people are not going to feel bad for them. Like if Alex Earl's like, "Oh, my life is so hard." People are like, you know, dude, I don't know. Some people like become so psycho fandom they want to attach to the story. I think the hard part with entrepreneurs, you have to protect your investors and

[36:43] so you can't talk about the negatives. Yeah. Right. And you can't talk about a product malfunction. And how so it's a huge advantage if you're a bootstrapped entrepreneur. Yeah. Because you don't have anybody to attest to. I mean minted New York. I don't know if you remember this. Oh, I bro there was during co he talked about the story of a of a shipment getting stuck in the Panama Canal or whatever because big tech was like bought out enemy marketing kind of you know exactly and that brought in a ton of fandom but what he's not sharing is like as much is whenever he fs up

[37:19] right like that's kind of like this external circumstance but what about all the times whenever he accidentally sent out an email that had a discount code or shipped a product, had a poor stitching. Maybe he still does. I think that would actually be kind of cool. But you got to be careful how much you go down that road because then you become an unreliable product provider, service provider. Same thing with info, right? If I'm a if I'm a service provider,

[37:42] you can't say that you provide the best. Dude, if I talked about all of the negative experiences that my clients perceive for my agency, it's like, why would anybody want to work with me, right? Now, there's a balance here. You want to be vulnerable, but you also don't want to just air out your dirty

[38:00] laundry, so you lose your credibility. So, it's a balance for sure. These are good ass answers. I think the the Marcus one makes the most sense because he's he really I mean, I'm sure he has negative stories, but I never hear of him personally in the external. Yeah. If you can if you can do enmy marketing external, like we're the hero. Here's the mountain we have to climb. That's like, and that's what I want to do right now with Meta because we just got information back. We have another 20 days to review. I'm trying to find Meta reps that I can pay to like get us

[38:30] through the process and uh I can't but I don't want to be like, man, Meta sucks. And then, you know, they like they cut us off, you know? Exactly. But you can you can you can be careful with how you how you phrase it. How you phrase it. Who's the enemy? Always make it circumstantial if you want to play that game. Um, and dude, this is a phenomenal way to develop strong strong people, strong fandom. Yeah. Like we we're supposed to get this office space and uh we go in yesterday and long story short, there's like

[39:03] rumors that it's like flooded. No way. And we're not sure if they lied to us, said it's not, but we haven't signed the lease yet. So, I'm have him record my call with the attorney and we're just going to turn this into a story and if it ends out good, you know, we'll protect the landlord because I still don't have a good relationship with them. If it ends out bad, then like I'm going to burn him to the ground. But they're also not going to see this stuff

[39:25] probably. So, it doesn't really matter. [laughter] So, you'd be surprised, bro. Like, you're not a no one. Maybe Boytown might just DM you, say, "Welcome to Omaha. Come check out the museum." It's because I posted a trial reel from my TikTok and I said, "I'm in Omaha. What's there to do in Omaha?" There's a trial. They saw it because they never seen my content before and it goes locally. And then they they DM' me and said, "Come check out Boytown." We show up to Boytown uh to shoot this and I look at my DMs and there's a DM

[39:50] from him. We didn't even we hadn't even checked. We were already in the Boytown parking lot. Going to hopefully shoot here and he checked his DMs and there was a DM from Boytown. That's crazy. That's so cool. Um I want to ask you this. It feels I've never built a product before. I'm curious. It feels like I'll just say I feel like I'm trying to hold back. It feels like you're pivoting

[40:22] a lot. Yeah. With Rtech. Yeah. But then it's also true that you need to pivot a lot to find the right. I think the action comes comes through from doing, right? I think that's true of everything in life. If if little a kid asks you like, "What should I do with my life?" It's like you just have

[40:36] to go try things for 20 years. Yeah. Um the goal with our tech when we started CJ and I was we care about creators more than anyone. We train creators better than anyone. Let's make a product that serves the creators that they will have access to and deals and tools and everything they need. Um that's actually affordable, you know? So that's like really what it's built on. And then there's management tools for the brands so that they're they're there to actually hire creators and stuff. But to be honest with you, I don't want to do B2B SAS and go live in SF and raise billions of dollars. I

[41:04] don't really care. I'd rather creators. My story is that I was in college. I graduated. There was no jobs for me. I had a sales job. I did that for a year. It was absolutely brutal. Despised it. But I got that 4K month deal from Whoop. And it was like the light at the end of the tunnel. Like, okay, I can do content for a career, you know? And that's what I want creators to feel because I genuinely cried when I got that first, you know, I was so happy. And then I got one more deal and then creator rewards uh program came out and I was doing like 15k a

[41:33] month and I was like I'm leaving my job creator. Yeah, I'm a full-time creator and I have like 15k followers or something, right? And so it's even easier now. It's more widely available now because there's there are more management tools and all those things. Brands are aware of organic social and how powerful it is. In 2022, 2023, not not as much. Um, so yeah, the goal has always been let's build something for the creators. And we've had to go in order to make a really really good creator product, creators need to make money, which means brands have to be part of it, which means tooling has to exist. And if I'm

[42:05] talking in a an email uh sequence or if I'm talking in a specific reel or whichever channel I'm on X or in YouTube versus short form, there's going to be different messaging for different for different people. And so I'm just trying to balance all of that. But the reality is what I actually want in my heart is the best creator platform so that creators can have the tools and the access to deals needed to make a ton of

[42:28] money. So whenever you say creator to me there's categories of creators. Yeah. There are influencers. This is Emma Chamberlain, Logan Paul, Clvicular. We don't serve them. There's course creators, infogurus, whatever. Yeah. Um there's founder creators. um leader of a personal brand with like a a more sound sound I hate to say sound business [laughter] on the back end and then there are uh UGC Tik Tok shop how far does this expand does it stay in that corner UGC Tik Tok shop in terms of TAM right now UGC and Tik Tok shop I think are uh the most you know highest population of creators and it's the the fastest way to leave

[43:08] your 9 to5 right it's very likely to make 5 to 10k per month and I don't feel comfortable saying that for anything else being an influencer difficult Dude, very difficult. It's special type of person the way they think a little bit of Mark Andre like maxing, you know what I mean? To go that direction. Um to be a UGC creator, you usually sign up for a platform and a brand's like, "Hey, I'll pay you 500 bucks to make videos like this. Can you do it?" And they're like, "Yeah." And then you just do that for like 10 brands and you're

[43:32] you're there. Yeah. Um so it's a lot more doable. And we've already been working with brands for two years facilitating all this manually through um in our own W community. So a brand would have to contact me. I would have to personally do everything and hire the creators. And I was like, "This is dumb. We should just build our own platform for it." And on top of that, we'll add the viral predictor tool. So, you add in, you know, your video and you get feedback right away for the things that matter so you can go more viral. And then you we're going to have editing tools and all of that. And then we have

[44:00] modules from top creators like yourself, Chase, uh CJ Weber, like a bunch of, you know, Alexis Mante, Mackenzie Marsh, like all these creators that are really, really good at what they do, whether it's shop, UGC, personal branding, and there's videos there that you can go watch to learn all these different skills. And then if you do want to go make money, there is a deal section and you can go there's going to be creator strategist uh you know creator managers, content strategy, UGC, Tik Tok shop, influencer posting, paid ads, like all these different jobs are available. And uh the goal is for if you're a creator,

[44:33] you're going to be on iOS app. Sure, we'll have a web app version for creators later, but as of right now, if I'm a creator, I go on Artekch. I have my my chats there, my messaging. Fun fact, what do you think people use Instagram the most for? Like what is their most used feature? It's DMs. It's

[44:48] a messaging. It's like the number one thing that separates it from YouTube, Tik Tok, Facebook. The DM feature is phenomenal. It it's one of the best things ever. So, we worked two months on just the messaging thing. Y um to make that a very very good feature. And again, you will have to pivot and change things, but at the end of the day, we're just listening to customers. So, if they're like, "Hey, we

[45:06] want we want RTK to go more this route. I want more tooling." Then, okay, we'll go and do more tooling. I don't think that's really what we do best. I think we do like like creator connection building to get best. But um that's really what we want to do. We're willing to pivot. I mean I personally don't need to make money for years. Like I don't genuinely I do not care about having a lot of money right

[45:25] now. In the future for sure, but I'm 27. So I feel like I got three years before the time even starts for three years of truly finding that like solid like lane, right? cleaned up through customer feedback, solidify it, and now let's run this thing to the ground and perfect it. Exactly. That makes sense. So, but the the mission is still the same. So, it

[45:46] might look like it's different. Um, and I think part of that is just me as a CEO like trying to find the messaging that is best that I can get people around. Y um because I have told people different messaging. Part of that's to see what sticks, what makes sense. If I'm talking to I mean even if I talk to investors, there's two types of investors. There's people in our space that know the jargon. There's people who are not in our space and don't know the jargon. And that pitch is extremely different in in terms of how I I bring that I bring that

[46:17] around, you know. Um so anytime you talk about the product, you just have to be aware really of who you're speaking to. That makes sense. I know you can tailor it a lot of different ways, but I want to ask you about hater content. Talk to me about it. Yeah, I think there's a couple stages of of haters, right? So, stage one is you're not even making content that's good enough to receive haters. You are not posting content that is getting any um any like mass reach. So, there's no hate to really come with it. The second stage

[46:55] is you start to solidify your message. you start to figure it out a little bit, but you're still like holding back punches and uh but you're getting more reach now. This is like you're starting to get 10,000 views a video and you have like a bunch of like maybe um rookies disagreeing with you, but it's not necessarily like true hate. It's more so disagreement. And those people usually don't know what they're talking about. But the third stage and this is where really starts happening is you realize that in order for me to get to the next level I have to develop a counter position which basically means

[47:24] like I have to find my stronger belief system in the market and hold to it more firmly in order to get to the next level. Right? Ironically niching down and having stronger opinions helps you grow faster in this space. specifically whenever it comes to beliefs and and hate. Then you start getting like you get the first like big blue check mark disagreeing with you like that person who used to be kind of a role model and you're like

[47:51] damn. Yeah. And like that's a sign that you're you're on in the right path. Like if you haven't gotten to that point, you're you really don't have like strong enough conviction in your content in your belief systems, right? Because there's so much content out there, you have to take your corner and own it and own it with conviction, right? Because everyone's looking for a tribe. You know, reason politics are so polarizing, sports teams are so polarizing. People want a tribe even in their intellectual property, what they agree in. So, you got to take a stance. But then the fourth stance is whenever you or the fourth stage of haters is whenever you

[48:27] have moved into the zeitgeist of your niche. And no matter what, extreme levels of hate will find you. Like at high level, I'm talking like hit pieces. Dude, we have a a creator. She's the biggest content creator on LinkedIn. Number one. More. No, nobody has more views than anybody else than her. And she has a 1.3 million viewed YouTube video and it's her on the thumbnail and it's just some guy roasting her for 25

[48:55] minutes. I got one of those. Yeah, you've been there before. [clears throat] Yeah. Yeah, when I when I broke up with my ex-girlfriend in 2023, some guy made a video and it was like the ex-boyfriend from hell and it was face to me. It was like 1.5 million views. Guy paints his nails, right? So, yeah, classic. But, and it's like it's like that is if you haven't made it there, you're just not in the zeitgeist. Like, that's the whole point is get to a place where you're so

[49:19] culturally relevant. Yeah. that like even the hater content creators like the Cody Co of the world are going to make a hit piece on you. Yeah. It's just inevitable. Yeah. because we had this guy who's in the CrossFit space and started blowing up blowing up you know million had his first million viewed video basically takes like a dig out of like some culture in Australia gym culture in Australia whatever and then the big one of the biggest uh YouTubers makes a video about him how he uses like AI for his videos and it's like who cares dude who actually cares about an AI script from this dude who runs a gym and it's

[49:54] like that that's a Sunday you've made it whenever people are going out of their way to like make hit pieces about you. So, okay, question for you because I have examples of like that actually happens to me kind of often still for content from even like a year ago or two, three years ago around dating and relationships. Um, people make hit pieces on me, people tag me in them and all that stuff. And, uh, for me, it's just not even a space I want to be in. I was just like, this is what I think is objectively true. I should say it with my chest. If you don't like it, you

[50:23] know, I don't I honestly don't care. You know, I don't have like a negative connotation towards these views. I just think they're true. Um, but then that's led me into that which I don't necessarily want to be in. How do you pivot out of that into like a new space if if you want to?

[50:37] You just compartmentalize. Compartmentalized. Just keep going. Yeah. It like being canceled is a mindset. That's like one of my favorite questions. I totally agree. And like what happens is 98% of people who are in the content space are going back and looking looking at your relationship videos for sure. No one knows. No one knows. It's not real. And so like that pocket of the internet might see you every now

[50:59] and then. That's not the same pocket of the internet that you live in. Yeah. It's like right now someone in small town Iowa is probably like gossiping about me, talking about like me being a scumbag on the football team, you know? Probably valid, but like I'm in Omaha now. I don't hear that. Don't care about it. I don't go back very often. Like it's just a whole different world. Like you just move on to the next space and you just keep moving, right? Like that's like the name of the game is compartmentalizing being

[51:26] cancelled as a mindset. So you're talking about counterpositioning. What's the best way to counterposition yourself to grow? Yeah. I mean, first of all, counterposition is the the fastest way to to like once you get formats figured out, once you get scripting and curiosity figured out, like we talked about, counterposition what's going to separate you and it's going to be what starts to get your name more memorable in your space. 10 creators all start at the same time in the same niche and they learn formats at the same time. They learn curiosity at the same time. The first one to learn counter positioning is going to win

[51:55] against the other nine. What this basically means is look at the top 10% of the people in your niche and find out how you're different of them. I'm in the content space. Name one other person. Not. [laughter] Name one other person with cornfields in the background. Yeah. You know what I mean? Name one other person with a vintage vehicle instead of a McLaren. Name one other person who is 28 with a 2 and a halfyear-old, a four-month-old, and has been married for almost six years. Five years. Slow-ky

[52:22] goals, bro. Yeah. I mean, but I think I think that's actually what ironically it feels counterposition, but I think it's what most people actually want. Like it's a better goal for people to shoot for. Yeah. Maybe even if that's not the Yeah, I agree. But even if that's not the case, I'm still different to them.

[52:36] Oh, for sure. Even if someone is fully blown Miami guru, like they want the club and the cars and the watches, they at least remember me. Mhm. Because they're like, "Oh, that's that guy." Yeah. You know what I mean? So, a counter position, but it's also a skill set. Like it's not just what is I'm looking at the way I look and the aura around

[52:53] me. It's also what I talk about. Not many people talk about data analyzing data and content. Not many people talk this is our meta right here. Not many people talk about counterpositioning in content which is one of my counterpositions, right? Not many people bring a level of marketing prowess and psychology to content strategy. It's all like here's how you go viral. Here's the five hooks you need. Here's

[53:18] whatever. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's they all sound the same. So, how did you come up with your counterpositions? Were they things you held as truth or was it just like this is what people think I'm going this way? A little bit of both. Right. So, I always say like analyze the the current state of your niche and then what are the things that you have conviction in

[53:38] that are opposite. Interesting. Right. And this is where like greatness happens. Like I think Peter Teal says like if you want to make a lot of money in this world, um, talk about a contrarian. Yeah. [laughter] Dude. Yes. Crazy. Uh he says um you can derive value from unexpected places, right? That's what a great counterposition is. You're driving value from a place that no one else has thought about, right? And so for you, let's say I'm in the fitness niche and I like

[54:04] everyone talks about the same stuff. Yeah. I athletes, they're all calories in calories out kind of. Yeah. Exactly. Get your 10,000 steps in. Bio maxing, biohacking, whatever. Biomaxing. I don't even know, dude. It's all the same stuff. They're all just like spin-offs of a Nick Bear and a Huberman. But those guys were very influential. Exactly. And like if you want to be great, you have to find something that's different

[54:28] that you can be influential in. Exactly. Something that's a complete like if I'm in the fitness teach, I'm thinking to myself, how do I be the complete opposite of Nick Bear, but still true to I am. I'm not saying I'm going to go like, oh, my counter position is I drink six Bush Lights in the morning and I still look shredded. Like, but people do do that and it does work

[54:43] because it is different. Exactly. Because it's different. But it's also needs to be something that's like gonna net authority net positive. You still want to be an authority, right? When you when you look at my content, I actually don't Initially I was like, I'm going to be a fitness creator. I kind of got brand deals and did that for a bit and then I was like, you know what, too slow on growth. I want more views. Got to like 50 60 million views a month doing dating and relationships. Um, good. But then I was like, the audience that I'm attracting here is not the audience that

[55:09] I really want and it's not true to me either. Now I kind of just do literally whatever and post it and I feel actually good about that. However, it's it's not really it's not counterpositioned to anything, you know? Yeah. You kind of become the niche. You think? A little bit. Yeah. What would you I was going to ask like what would you consider my niche and you know like maybe try to come up some counterpositioning for like what I do

[55:30] which is kind of founder. Yeah. It's tough because you don't have like super strong follower quality. Yeah. Right. You kind of if I remember right it's garbage. Yeah. You have like a And then how many followers you have on Instagram? Like 43. And how many what's your average views? It's like probably 5K 5 to 10K. It's like Yeah. But it's because you know I would talk about very niche things like this is how you grow your UGC account to 1k followers or something. Um which I would sell for our agency which was really beneficial at the time but then I

[56:01] it's not like a you know what I mean? It's not like a high. So I'd have to change it to go get more views necessarily. If you have 40,000 followers that have come from Yeah. So they're b like in the space I feel good like people like know me and what we do. Um but in terms of like what I'm looking to do now with Rtech, I'm going to have to go higher distribution. Like I'm

[56:20] going to have to go bigger. Yeah. I have some like a little animosity doing it because I know what that involves. I know it'll be different for like you know girls that I date and you know even for my family. Like I've had people reach out to my mom and you know what I mean? So I know if you go bigger there's more problems with it too. So it kind of kind of makes me shrink a little bit because I don't necessarily want

[56:37] that. Yeah. I mean Yeah. But I'm I'm here to win so doesn't really matter, you know? Yeah. But I'm curious what you would what you would say. I don't know if you have to. I mean like if you just like became the side hustle king, that's like a big enough tan and no one's going to be texting your mom being like, "Hey, I'm going to kill this guy because he has

[56:57] takes on side hustles, right?" Yeah. You know? Yeah. And like you could build a multi multi8 figure company just off a really strong side hustle brand, you know, like you I don't think you have to think you have to go like culture. Yeah. World view, stuff like that. Like you definitely don't have to do that. You don't even have to go general mindset even. There's there are subcategories underneath in my opinion where you can still build a insane business. What do

[57:30] you What would you think I should do? Like if you look at me, like if I look at you, I I see like an ogle V type person. Yeah, that's that's actually sick that you say that. Yeah. I literally want to be the modern day Oglev. Yeah. And so I think that's you. What would you know? Do you have like anything I can, you know, you would

[57:45] frame like that for me? Yeah. I would say like um like I would climb. I wouldn't jump. Yeah. just keep doing. Well, I I was going to say like I wouldn't jump to like early day Tim Ferrris, but I think that's like who you could get to like the 4-hour work week concept like this general business and then the 4-hour body. Like take the four hours out of it. I'm more so talking about his like concept of side hustle life management mixed with with health and wellness. Like even you can even do it before 4-hour body came out stand 4-hour work week era of Tim Ferrris. But like even that that's like

[58:22] a hod. There's probably someone even like a Cody Sanchez that could be like a layer below the Tim Ferris realm. And then even underneath Cody Sanchez, there's probably uh a creator that's like an abridged version. But the whole point is you're trying to target people and convince them that they can leave their job by

[58:40] being a creator. Yeah. So the average demographic there is 16 to 32 year olds. What are the average? You'd be surprised even, you know? Yeah. I know there's a lot of stay at home moms that like for the first time they're they're they're huge. They love UGC. Yeah. Um but we even have older guys like we have 40s 50s year old guys. Um you know dads, you know, people that even you know are just like what is this? Like I want to learn about it, you know. Um but I think the the Tim Ferrris one I've heard that actually a couple times from people apparently like I have

[59:11] a similar like worldview to him or something. I actually never read his books. You should read 4-hour work week I think. And you don't have like his whole thing is like lifestyle max and getting your time back. It doesn't have to be that. But like the spin on like moving your life financially to what you can

[59:26] architect. Yeah. Is like the first like ring of TAM that I would encourage you to to rip. Like you don't have to go to like gender roles and like just try to chase I'm not going to do that ever again. Yeah. You know, like I I realized really early if I wanted to make a hook, I could just put like girls in the title and just talk about like anything dating

[59:47] and it would just rip. Yeah. Like you don't have to go to mindset. I don't think you have to go to dating like even that high. Yeah. Like even like general business. Yeah. Like how to make your first I think first $10,000 water down. I think like just [snorts] sticking in this like pocket of career pivots, financial freedom, best side hustles, how to this classic like how to how to make your nineto-5, how to leave your 5 to9 with your 9 to5 or how to leave your nine to five with your five to nine or whatever

[1:00:16] it is. Like that's the world that I would try to just swim in and then I would try to find a counter position in that world. Mhm. Right. I don't know what that is, right? But yeah, I mean, one of the things that I've done lately, I haven't had an apartment in like nine months, you know,

[1:00:29] almost almost a year. Nomading would be sick counterposition. Yeah. And I mean, I'm basically a startup founder that is a nomad and they're kind of very counterpositioned against each other. Like all my friends run companies that are competing in our space. They aren't an office in New York. They're funded. You know, they have all of that. But I just thought, you know, what's best for my like life and health. So whenever you're developing a counter position, this is what you always have to be thinking is there's going to be objections to the position. So now my thought is like, oh,

[1:00:58] there's no way I could ever do that. What do you say to that to be nomadic? Yeah, there's no way I could ever actually leave my Well, it's just like I would have to get lucky. Like I'm too busy right now. Like that's like for So the first thing you need is like a high leverage thing. So because of our agency, I can sell like a few high ticket people and like have generally good life. like, you know, not the numbers matter, but like over 20, 30k a month consistently while traveling without stress from UGC, the agency, all of that. We've had crazy months where it

[1:01:27] goes more than that, but that's it's given me enough to where I don't have to necessarily stress that much about it. I know exactly what my inputs have to be to get that every month. So, that that right there, what you just said, I think is the unique part. Yeah. Because like everyone can say like, I'm a low stress entrepreneur. I have time freedom. There has to be something

[1:01:47] tangible that is unique. It can't be like highlevel broad like I like to travel language for your counterpart. Okay. So it' be like you know I do 30k a month and like you know I don't want to do the money thing as much like talk about it but like I'm able to travel. It doesn't have to be about you though. You could do like here is how one of your counter positions could be about expense management because financial freedom comes from keeping your just making sure your

[1:02:13] income passes. Yeah. Your expenses. Yeah. I've never heard anybody ever talk about financial freedom from an expense management standpoint. Yeah. Well, it's funny because I actually had like credit card debt when I was, you know, coming out of college and stuff and um I had to fight through it and fortunately I cleared it. Um but it was, you know, so I kind of have experience there because, you know,

[1:02:34] it was a struggle. Um which is kind of funny like I don't like necessarily talking about that. You know what I mean? But um I think a lot of people deal with that. The reality is you just need to do something that you know you need to sell like high ticket. Yeah, it's kind of what it is the life that we live in. Um okay, that's interesting. So that could be counter positioning I suppose. Um yeah, I mean I believe you can do a startup because a startup is based on the people and the inputs and you can have like a bunch of knuckleheads together in an office and your inputs

[1:03:05] might be lower than having a guy who works really well alone, you know, by himself. Like our CTO, anytime he has to talk to people or to clients or whatever, it takes his focus away from product. Yep. And so maybe it's better for him to not come into the office every day. Anyways, you know, that's a so that's like a great example

[1:03:23] of a video that's a counter position. The types of roles that need to be in office and the types of roles that need to be remote. Everyone's talking about should you be remote? Should you be in office? You have now found a counterposition by dividing and not saying either one. You're giving a counter position to both of them saying actually we split it by role. That video would rip. Cool. No one

[1:03:42] I've never heard that video before. There's really strong emotional resonance around being in office, being in being remote, blah blah blah blah blah. Wait, what? Actually, it should be by role. That's like that's where your mind should be going whenever it's like thinking about counter positions. You're really good at it. You know, sometimes. How would you frame that? Like text hookwise versus also what I used to do is I would record for like maybe two minutes or something take like the best 30 seconds and then what I thought was the hook I'd make like the text hook and then cut it out and of the video and so I'm like already in the

[1:04:17] video kind of going and then so I think it's an option. I think there's like there's so many different ways to do it. Like if I was making this exact video we can do a workshop right now. The core concept is it's not remote. It's not in person. It's actually based by role. So, the first thing I would do is I would I would open up a curiosity loop and I would be like maybe some statistic that says like uh 2026 72% of companies came back to office and I think it's a terrible idea, but I also think staying out of office is a ter terrible idea. Let me explain. So, now

[1:04:53] there's a curiosity loop and there's and there's extreme polarity between the two. But now I'm not going to tell them it should be able to buy role yet. I'm not going to twist the knife and be like here's the downsides of being an officeoom. Here's the downsides of and I might even just say like I I have a solution just bear with me here like I'll get to in a second. But there's also downsides to being a remote. Boom. Boom. The reality is in 30 seconds 40 seconds into the video. You should be dividing your org chart based off of red and blue. Red is in office. These are roles that excel in

[1:05:25] direct contact with each other. And I'll get into those specific roles in a second. Here's another open loop. Oh my god. But the blue is actually the more deep workers who are a little autistic and they they need to be alone and they're going to just really get some deep work done. The red one, these are going to be your sales team, your marketing team, your operations team. And now they're still waiting for the blue roles. The blue roles are your product team,

[1:05:49] whatever team, whatever team. Yeah. So I would just encourage you whenever you're thinking about your work chart, do this and do this. Yeah. like mostly a founder content so it's not going to go insanely viral but that's going to be like potent content for a founder right that's like a an example of a counter position and then you just spin that concept every other week and now you're known as the hybrid office guy yeah which is a great niche to be in phenomenal niche to be in especially because we're going to have a lot of people that are that want that lifestyle as founders you know

[1:06:19] 100% you want both and then freaking the next thing I would do is I would start talk about tips to do that. If you want to have a hybrid office, having your deep workers remote and your sales team or whatever in person, you need to understand that the deep work people still need project management. The very first hire I would do as a project manager strictly for the remote people, but here are the three questions I'm going to ask them in the interview process to make sure that they're

[1:06:42] dialed. So good. Okay, so man, that's so good. What would you expect views like that to be on a video? Because to me, that would be that would seem like lower tan. Yeah, 10,000 views on that would be like a banger. Banger. Yeah. Right. Like even 5,000. You'd be happy with three to five

[1:06:56] basically. 100%. Okay. And then you just get better. Like we don't want to stay there. Yeah. We don't want to stay there. And it's like and then you can add like little tweaks into like you know like format green screen kind of that that sort of thing or you know well then you Well, you just spin the the the psychology away from the founder

[1:07:11] and now to the employee. More employees than founders. So we just opened up the TAM the TAM huge 100 to one. Right. Hey, if you're working in the office, if your company just made you come back into office and it's remote or and you used to be remote and you're absolutely pissed now, like maybe don't

[1:07:24] find a new company. Yeah. Maybe it's the role that you're in. Maybe you're actually a deep worker and you need to be in one of these roles. I would consider a career pivot. Well, guys, you know, thank you for watching. We've been in Omaha with Brier and his team. Um, you know, Brier, where

[1:07:36] can people find your stuff? Brier Cochran on Instagram. DM me there. If you put uh if you put Owen in the uh the first word whenever you DM me, I'll answer all questions for the first week that this drops. Wow, that's crazy. That's incredible sauce. That's worth uh 1,500 an hour, by the way. So, good luck. [laughter]

[1:07:52] All right. Thank you. Let's go, baby.

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