# Thriving in Business: Understanding your Origins, Identity, and Future Self – Dr. Sherry Walling

Channel: Rob Walling
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0YVJeighyQ
Duration: 47 min
Language: English
Words: 6811
Transcript page: https://viewrankai.com/tools/youtube-transcript/M0YVJeighyQ

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[0:00] [Music] [Music]

[0:15] so um last Wednesday I was supposed to send my slides to Xander and I thought that would be a good day to begin to write my talk and I know I'm that first time um so I had like lots of ideas and things I was thinking about that I wanted to kind of share with this community this time and I sat down I got my tea out I turned like my focus station on Spotify and I got all ready to like do some deep work and I was typing furiously and sort of just letting these ideas flow and after like about 15 minutes as one does when one is

[0:58] working on something really important under a timeline I found myself on Twitter but it actually was very fortuitous because I came across with this article brain scans of founders show they love their companies like children and I was like oh I'm intrigued this is like kind of one of the themes that I wanted to talk about so I read the little write-up and then I went to the original journal because science is good and these researchers are basically asking the question do founders love their companies and does that love look neurologically similar to the kind of love that parents have for their children so the way that they went out

[1:47] to our set about assessing this question is to get two groups of men men who had companies men who had children there were no women in this study because we still have work to do I'll leave that there um so one of the ways that they do these brain scans they use a functional MRI so they could see the the activity of the brain when the brain was queued with certain stimuli so they showed the group of fathers images of their children their specific children then they showed him a neutral stimuli they showed him a picture of like another kid that was sort of similar but not their child

[2:28] so they're looking to see how the brain makes the distinction between these different stimuli and then they did the same thing with companies so they used the logo of the company or a picture of the staff some image that was closely highly associated with the company then they did a neutral stimuli and they did the logo of another company that wasn't a competitor but was sort of similar so they're looking to see how the brain reacts to one's own child slash company or a similar but neutral child slash company and it turns out that the brains of parents and the brains of founders look very similar and one of the parts

[3:15] of the brain that was most activated when founders were looking at their companies and parents were looking at their children is the reward center of the brain the striatum specifically if you care about this the nucleus accumbens the caudate nucleus and the putamen and these are midbrain centers that are activated when the brain experiences of reward so a primary reward like food you're hungry you eat food this part of the brain is like yay you are needing money a secondary reinforcer you get money this part of the brain has a little party so this is the part of the brain that's activated if it produces a lot of dopamine which

[3:56] if you're into neuroscience is one of the neurotransmitters that helps us feel blissful feel-good so Rob said yesterday that your company is not your baby but your brain thinks it is because the brains of founders and the brains of parents looked identical in this way so we really do have a neurological basis for the fact that founders you do love your company's deeply and it's like rewarding and blissful this part of the brain that's the striatum is also really active when we talk about paren to love and romantic love things that feel good another interesting finding that these researchers reported is a suppression in the posterior cingulate

[4:50] cortex the temporoparietal Junction and the dorsal medial prefrontal cortex and these are all parts of the brain that are active in social understanding and assessment so when you are trying to get in the mind of someone else and try to figure out like what's their game are they trustworthy are they going to be interesting to talk to when you're mentalizing we call it your brain is trying to project into someone else's brain this part of the brain shuts down when we think about children our children we would think about our companies essentially this is a suspension of critical assessment and the researchers thought that this may be

[5:37] happening because the company like the child is not encoded as a separate entity the brain doesn't recognize it as a separate thing it sees it as an extension of the self so love is blind and we can't necessarily recognize according to the brain where we end and the company begins so to summarize their research I can't actually see this very well they said entrepreneurs in love rely on their subjective beliefs that are represented in an inside view which perceives the details of one's own company as unique special snowflake and they tend to ignore or underway objective information that may undermine their beliefs so you're very very biased

[6:36] towards your own company folks and what this means is that as in an interpersonal relationship the perceived need to rely on external data to validate the qualities of one's own is reduced so we have this interesting combination of love of subjective bliss and decreased capacity to critically assess nothing bad has ever happened when those two things are going on together so I have like a couple reactions to this article I really I really did find an interesting and I kind of immersed myself in it a little parenthetical aside and then I'll get back to my thoughts but because of the way that this particular article is

[7:27] written and because of what's happening in my life I realized throughout the course of this talk I'm sort of talking a lot about parenting and using a lot of examples of parenting from you know my own experience so I just want to say like there are lots and lots of ways to live life I in no way I mean to sort of project that as the expected standard of how people's lives go it's just sort of the material I have to work with and also the material that was kind of represented in this article so getting back to how I think about this first of all for me this study like really

[8:03] explained some things because I don't know how you all are but for me when I became a parent I realized both the heights and depths of myself like how incredibly patient and kind and loving and sleep-deprived I can be and also what a selfish short-tempered crazy person I can be so if you have a company and you kind of feel the same you're both impressed by your own ability to like stick to it and work 15 hour days and drive hard but you're also like a little bit crazy and obsessed and irrational that probably means you're doing it right like all the bright brain centers are activated for you the other

[8:52] reaction or the second reaction I had to reading this article is like this is great work is so important the way that we spend our days day in and day for years if we can find something that we love that makes our brain gushy and mushy and happy and in love like damn it go and do that that is a great way to live how cool that founders feel that way about their work how cool that it brings that much pleasure in satisfaction so much so that you don't even care about the data my third reaction of course because I always have to bring the downer to micro Kampf is

[9:36] that this is probably kind of dangerous to have this level of fusion of a lack of separation between oneself and one's company I'm gonna argue as' is dangerous I would say the same thing about a relationship fusion between two people in a romantic relationship can be dangerous you lose yourself fusion between parent and child can be dangerous are you your company do you want to be your company do you want to be that entwined one of the experiences that sort of led me to believe that this might be a bad thing is again I'm going to draw from my experience as a parent we have well you saw one of our sons in

[10:26] the video yesterday and this child how to say it he is still developing the adaptive capacity to thrive in a classroom environment which means he gets in trouble a lot like not for bad things he's not malicious he's a really lovely child but he just quite can't sit in the chair at the right times for the right amount of time blah blah blah so um I never got in trouble ever so if I was going the principal's office it was because I was getting an award and so yes I'm that kid so here I am though now as an adult person and my little person who I'm so connected to is getting in

[11:19] trouble and when this entered our life when this begins happen I would feel I love this like shame and fear and sadness like I was the nine-year-old in the principal's office I had all of the emotions that I sort of projected onto him and that was really a problem because I would like start shaking and feel really anxious when I was going to the school which is really not healthy and super not helpful to my kid who needs me to be a grown-up he doesn't need me to feel like a nine-year-old and have all the same feelings that he maybe should feel he needs me to pay attention to what he

[11:58] needs and to use my ability to critically assess a situation and provide him with the support or the advocacy or the you know bust his chops whatever is appropriate in that moment that's what's required of me and so it goes with Founders if you are so fused with your company that you feel all of the ups and downs of what it feels that you are immersed in all of the moments of the life of the company it creates a weak you and a weak company because your company needs you to be an adult with a brain not to ride up and down the emotional roller coaster that the

[12:36] company is experiencing part of our transition in the last year has been as you heard to move to Minneapolis and so what's that what that has meant for me is doing last traditional academic and and psychology work and I'm working a lot more with you all with founders and one of the things that I've begun to practice pretty regularly when I'm coaching or consulting with founders is to try to listen for the different voices of the company and the voices of the human because often someone will be telling me about a transition that they're going through that they're burnt out that they're frustrated they're they're having this problem with the

[13:21] teammates and I realized that the voices and the motivations are sort of all mixed together but there is a place where the needs in the company then needs in the ones of the company start and the needs in the ones of the founder or the person stop there's some separateness so part of what I try to do is listen for the difference so a couple little quick examples here's um here's a little baby founder sorry a baby company and this company wants to grow grow grow he wants to take over the world he wants to take over Tokyo he is just sort of ravenous for growth that's the motivation of the

[14:00] company the founder however maybe wants to take a more conservative approach or wants to be more strategic wants to manage growth in a sustainable way or wants to emphasize profit over growth there are different motivations present the company may be driving one motivation while the founder human has a different set of needs little company babies are also kind of emotional they tantrum they go up and down they are swayed by Google settings what's happening in Amazon lots and lots of things that are outside of the founders need to experience stability love comfort a sense of worth the company needs to be able to be erratic it needs to be able to be kind of a

[14:53] toddler without the founder going along with it without the founder experiencing all of the same ups and downs that the company does another example sometimes the business once all the customers it's sort of like nom nom nom like I would take everybody but sometimes the human the founder wants to be much more selective about who they work with maybe they have a lot of anxiety about a high drama customer and there's a value for the human there's a human need or human push to be more selective so the company and the founder once again have these sort of contradicting needs and once I think the point here is don't lose the

[15:35] ability to to hear to understand yourself as distinct from your company it doesn't mean you don't love it but sometimes your company needs your separateness and I want to point out you know I'm giving this talk to you because we're it growth my talk at starter is all about how to survive fusion it's all about how to survive the infant years when your company can't hold it tied up or feed itself or do anything by itself but we're at growth you all are farther along in the process ostensibly and your job is to develop or grow a company that is maturing well that is working towards

[16:18] self sustainability in some capacity is working towards some autonomy what we don't want or what I wouldn't want for your life is to have like a spoiled brat company that will just take take take whine whine whine all the time without maturing well and I'm you know I'm being a little playful I've got pictures of cute kids but the thing is guys the risks are really real there is a psychological price to all of this and you've built something that you love which is fabulous but building something you that you love takes tremendous sacrifice and I don't want that sacrifice to be you not really not your

[17:08] self not your identity not your soul so whether or not you've kind of personally experienced there's a darkness to all of this entrepreneurs are tremendously lonely people there's a lot of anxiety there's depression there's angst there's substance abuse you alone bear the weight of the business you've created you alone bear the weight of the life that you've made so how do you do this well how do you build a business but also cultivate a self that is separate enough that is robust enough that is strong enough bad things are happening um so this is hard work this sense of knowing yourself of being self reflective of having that was fast

[18:08] good job guys having a deep capacity it takes intention and effort to do this well for all of us it takes it intention and effort to be a good person it takes intention and effort to be a mature or wise person it takes intention and effort to be successful and it takes intention and effort to have the guts to sort of look inside yourself know who you are and be true to that version of yourself as you go through life and all of the sort of pressures and things that will threaten to pull you in all these different directions so one of the ways that I think about identity is it's a

[18:41] combination of who you are in all of your domains and in all of your moments so your identity is comprised of the past you the present you and the future you so when we think about the past some of you may have heard me say this before but when I became a psychologist I I think I probably said out loud I'm gonna be the psychologist that's like really down to business like really about effective behavioral change I am NOT going to be talking to people about their mothers and then I started doing this work and I sort of realized that you can't do a lot of

[19:22] behavioral change unless you like talk to people about their mothers not the mother's matter so much although they really do but who you were as a kid matters a lot to who you are and your understanding of your adult self is based very heavily on how you came up in this world so I'd like to thank ally Taber for the little picture of cute Mikey and we've got cute Robbie don't let your wive's friend me on Facebook so real quickly just turn to someone around you and try to remember what did you love when you were six what were you into Matchbox cars Rainbow Brite Lego would you love what was fun

[20:13] for you no really talk to each other for a second

[20:54] okay okay come back it's kind of a fun question isn't it I mean similarities did you were any D&D players in the room and I see you I love I love talking to founders about this actually a couple or I think maybe two years ago Rob and I did a series on design founder podcast about founder origin stories and we talked to founders about their growing up time their experiences as kids and so Keaton Shaw was one of the people that we interviewed and when he was a kid he would spend his evenings in the hospital with his dad I was a doctor so while dad was finishing notes or

[21:36] whatever Heaton would be there and with a screwdriver was taking apart the hospital's computers and then hopefully putting him back together Erica Douglas another founder that we interviewed was collecting golf balls from the the golf where do they call that golf course behind her house and then selling them back to golfers for 25 cents each entrepreneurial venture Patrick I don't know you see in here Patrick loved video games Patrick McKenzie patio 11 but he didn't have a computer or a way to code them so he checked out a book at the library about how to code video games and he would write code by hand sort of

[22:19] imagining in his head how the game would go based on the code he was writing and Rob walling was coding on an Apple 2e and was applying for patents and as a child was of course collecting writing and trying to publish comic books so we know where that whole thing came from I think the thing is that we come into the world in a certain way and we bring this true self this sort of essential self into the world and it gets sort of battered around and reshaped by teachers and parents and wings and first heartbreaks and first girlfriends and first husbands and it's really hard to retain the essence of

[23:09] that unless we work really hard at it we have to develop this way to play society's games and you know it's good we all are grown-ups in the world and we have things to do and bills to pay and all that stuff but it's so easy to lose that essential self and I think especially there's a lot of pressure for there to be a lot of space between our grown-up selves and our child selves we're supposed to be mature and responsible and not waste time and not mess around but I also think that there's a lot of wisdom to understanding that essential self and how he or she

[23:47] shapes us in this moment so when you were a kid if you would hop from one activity to another you sort of make one Lego thing you moved to another Lego thing and move to a Legos another Lego thing hey maybe you're a serial entrepreneur maybe you're not going to be content working on one project for years and years on the other hand if you spent a whole summer doing this really detailed model training situation and you loved it and you never got bored with it and you just wanted to build and build and grow and grow maybe you're not a serial entrepreneur maybe you love to

[24:20] see a thing through the whole way for a long time if you were orchestrating if you were the foreman of your neighborhood kid crew and you were making the plans and designing the games maybe you have sort of CEO like naturally written within you and you're great at leading teams if you spent most of your time maybe quietly in the library it doesn't mean that you're not great at leading teams but it means that you have a different skill set that you're bringing to that work and maybe some relative weaknesses that you need to work on cultivating or if like this child you send an email to your parents

[24:57] who are in the next room all caps subject line urgent exclamation exclamation explanation issue at the office exclamation exhibition read now eight more exclamation marks hey I just saved one call away unseen karaoke I think this kid has a future in email marketing yeah he just is who he is the other piece is sort of understanding what you overcame to get here not only knowing your points of joy and bliss but also knowing your toughness what you have had to put up with or conquer not everyone had like a blissful delightful childhood right we had things that we had to work through and push through and

[25:42] fight against and again many founders who I've talked to have hard hard things in their stories the loss of a parent a significant mental or physical illness some kind of traumatic event and it's those moments just as well as our joyful moments that tell us sort of what we're made of and who we are and what superpowers we might be bringing to this work because of the things that we've had to cultivate within ourselves as we've gone through our lives I think the question for me is what parts of you are non-negotiable your past self is your best teacher about that what parts of you do not want to lose what parts of

[26:24] you are essential its micro comps so I will give you some actionable strategies if you want to be more acquainted with your past self very sort of very simply practice memory practice like tell stories about your childhood antics to your family to your friends read your old journals look at old pictures talk to your parents talk to people who knew you when you were a kid don't lose your past don't lose the anchoring that you have in your own history but you have to be intentional and effortful it doesn't happen automatically practice play I could do a whole talk about the mental health benefits of play play just doing

[27:13] something for the fun of it it doesn't necessarily have to push forward the bottom line it just brings you joy it just feels good that helps you reconnect again to that childhood self that holds a lot of wisdom and holds a lot of sort of information about what you really truly love and relatedly I would say practice joy there's this um interview going around the internet right now of brené Brown talking to Oprah like the two like soul mamas of the world right now and Bernie Brown talks about how joy is one of our most terrifying emotions it actually makes us feel very vulnerable and uncomfortable because all

[27:53] of the barriers are stripped away all the walls you're just like Here I am I'm joyful but that can feel very out of control to these big grown-up brains you can feel very out of control when we feel also the pressure of adulting but if you give yourself some moments in your life where you just get to be joyful not protected not anticipating the next tragedy not making a plan not trying to problem-solve but just immersed in a positive emotion it's really good for your brain and it might also be fun so this business of becoming of being in touch with our sort of historical selves is becoming belongs

[28:41] to the heights it's full of torment it's full of all of our hard things but how can you become if you never are if you never pay attention to all that you've been through and done so you need your bottom most you need your low points but you also need your heights is that sort of where you soar from so let's time travel a little bit more that's the past self when we think about our present selves how do we distinguish our present selves from the crappy customer that tweets an out-of-context hath truth about your product or a slow database or a server outage or a contractor than it

[29:21] went AWOL or the guy on your team that brought the site down or the sales slowdown those are all of the things that you do in a day those are the problems that you tackle with that company of yours those are the company's problems that's the company but you how do you know in a given moment who is you your present self I think your present self exists in the effort that you bring to each day not necessarily the task that you're doing but the heart that you show your choices to be kind or ethical although the decisions that you make that are not about what's happening

[30:04] but about being about who you are in that moment your present self it's your creativity it's your mind it's your intelligence it's your heart it's your body anything that's contained in your skin that's who you are in this present moment again separate from the tasks that you do you aren't your Twitter feed you aren't what people see on social media you aren't what you project as the leader of a company to the world that's part of your job it's part of your company it's not you staying connected to your present self how do you do that how do you not get caught up in the whirlwind of all of the ups and downs of

[30:49] this toddler tantrum and company that you love one of the strategies is to practice detachment just like parents take some time away from their kids every now and then so it can be good to have systems where you do detach you allow yourself a break a time to reset your brain time to rest space between the company that you love and your separate self another strategy is to be known to really be known by other people so that they will help you to see your blind spots they will help you to see where you have shut down critical assessment and you are no longer paying attention to who you are in a given

[31:34] moment and it's also in relationships that we kind of bring forth our best selves so be known invest in your relationships have a mastermind have a community of founders that you are actually honest with that will help anchor you in your present self let's do a little more time traveling lots of interesting research happening right now within the field of psychology and mental health about people's capacity to conceptualize their future self so we've done past present and here we go with future and it's sort of this mental health superpower actually if you can really actively practice that mentalization skill that I talked about and get yourself not into the brain or

[32:30] intentions of another person but into the brain or intentions of yourself ten years from now 20 years from now fifty years from now Lord willing that ability is associated with better self-control increased self compassion better decision-making a sense of trust a deeper sense of trust in yourself your ability to delay gratification and voilá critical assessment your ability to use your brain to evaluate you know a critical question because right now in this moment we only see what we feel right we see oh that cake looks good I don't really feel like going for a run today it's been I don't really want to call my mother she's kind of a pain you know we

[33:20] we see our instantaneous momentary emotional pressures but when we forecast out and we ask the question what will it mean if I continue in these patterns for the next five years ten years 15 years 20 years we're opening kind of a whole other capacity to assess our decisions right now because we're projecting them into the future I'm you know this is this is becoming a thing where people have conversations on the internet with an image of themselves having aged a certain number of years into the future and it's a skill how do you talk to your future self do you talk to your future self do you sort of sit down and think

[34:02] like what will my future self want me to do about this decision right now do you write to your future self do you let your future self write to you I know this all sounds like a little bit but I promise it's actually very effective letting yourself play with time because the fact is that who you are in this very moment is only one piece of your story and if you can have a longitudinal view of yourself over the course of your life you will be that much better at making decisions and like being a well happy person identity is a culmination of all of it the past the

[34:44] present the future and fusion is the path of least resistance just letting yourself be sort of taken in or taken up with identifying with your company is easiest it's easy to stay in that infant face it's not easy but it is you know what I mean it's much harder to do the work to mature your company into mature yourself identity takes work there's this drift towards the past of path of least resistance adrift toward fusion that we all experience this is my dad his name is Tim and in February he was diagnosed with stage 4 inoperable metastatic esophageal cancer like the nasty one and it spread to his lungs and it spread to

[35:43] his lymph nodes and it's sort of on this like tour throughout his body and they can't operate and they probably won't be able to use radiation so he started chemotherapy and people are like oh how long it would be on chemo and it's like forever until he dies and you know this is a scary one there's like less than a 5% chance that he'll live more than five years so our whole family has had this like abrupt reassessment of what we're doing of what's important of how we're spending our time because there's just nothing like a near-death experience or knowing that someone you love has very limited

[36:33] time to help you reassess how you are spending the moments of your days and I know this is this is a story that many of you now you've lost parents some of you've lost spouses some of you have cancer or not in the middle of this drama or this journey yourselves and I don't say it to like pull the sympathy cord as much as it has kind of been this like oh stand up straight and really pay attention to how life is going and one of the things that I've actually been quite surprised at for myself is this like kind of renewed drive to really live in my own best life and one of the

[37:15] things that my experience with my dad has really kind of made come alive in me is that I really love my work I love my family yes but I also love my work and that that's a good thing it doesn't have to be these sort of contradictory counterbalancing I can't love my family and both of my work there's some time and space for everything that really matters and for me one of those things is my work and I think that's you know at least what the brain scans show about all of you - the whole point of this really is that a founder who's killing it is a founder who's awake

[37:55] who is paying attention who is engaged in as much critical assessment and intentional active self development as possible that you're not just letting yourself get absorbed with the tasks of the day don't lose yourself don't raise a spoiled brat company who will just take take take take take

[38:24] help it to grow up let yourself be a full self cuz I think you know the whole thing with my dad and all this stuff like this is not a dress rehearsal guys this is it so if you are unhappy with how your life is going right now you better have a conversation with who you're gonna be in 20 years and ask him what or her what you should be doing or have a conversation with who you were 20 years ago and say hey kiddo what did you love what was fun Who am I really why should I be giving my attention love your company but don't

[39:10] let it take you over we began with neuroscience I think we should end with poetry this is Pablo Neruda you start dying slowly if you do not travel if you do not read if you do not listen to the sounds of your life if you do not appreciate yourself you start dying slowly when you kill yourself esteem when you do not let others help you you start dying slowly if you become a slave of your habits walking every day on the same paths if you do not change your routine if you do not wear different colors if you do not speak to those you don't know you start dying

[40:01] slowly if you avoid to feel passion and turbulent emotions those which make your eyes glisten and your heart beat fast you start dying slowly if you do not change your life when you are not satisfied with your job or with your love if you do not risk what is safe for the uncertain if you do not go after a dream if you do not allow yourself at least once in your lifetime to run away from sensible advice you start dying slowly when you let yourself stop being awake she spoke about visualization and things like that did you visualize your position right now five years ago is this what you

[41:08] visualized you mean selling drip I didn't I wasn't I didn't build drip to sell it so I wouldn't have thought that but I did have a simple note document we were talking one night on an anniversary and I wrote that I wanted to sell a company at some point for you know X price or make this much money per year from it so it had nothing right was named exact dollar the drip sold for him but it wasn't about drip so I don't know that I I guess the answer to your question is yes next other questions so at the moment you've probably noticed on the Internet's that

[41:59] stoicism is all the rage it's come back after a few thousand years in the darkness what are your thoughts on stoicism for entrepreneurs so if we understand the premise of stoicism is is a certain level of detachment from emotional experience and I can fully be misrepresenting this so if someone here is like a stoic fan feel free to define this better I I am of two minds about this and I think you can sort of hear that in my talk in a way I'm I'm a big fan of emotion I think that's one of the like really fun ways that our sort of mind body soul is all mixed up together

[42:49] that we have the capacity for passion and being thrown a little bit off-kilter in one direction or another so I want to retain that kind of important human capacity but I also like the capacity to step outside of what's happening in sort of them the mucky muck of our lives or what's happening within our own selves and objectively from some distance observe so yes and this one might be a little too in-depth but when a founder is in in the they are in all those panic situations it's going up it's going down their emotions are torn everywhere how do they separate themselves from those situations take

[43:54] deep breaths well that is I mean that is that they're like shifting that we all have to do in some ways like you're shifting from one way of being to another way of being and you know people talk about work/life balance and I no longer find that to be a helpful term I find that I'm just sort of throwing myself into whatever that moment is so when I talk about detachment I'm not necessarily like talking about lesbian blank space but let's then choose to attach to something else so whatever craziness is going on whatever sort of emotionally fueled anxiety panic is happening between you and your business it's okay to shift and

[44:39] detach for a time and and attach to something else you know attached to like your bike right on the way home or attached to that meal with your kid or to shift and then go back to it it's sort of like putting a pause in it not fully walking away I think we have time for one or two more it's just gonna make it first of all I just want to say great great talk I agree with everything that you said when a new person I think this is very critical that to talk about these subjects I just want to just make one comment about the stoicism just you know

[45:19] I think that it's often represented as being emotionally detached and I always remind myself this this phrase which is feel the pain keep stepping forward and so cuz I think you can Stonewall and you can get to the point where you can push forward but you don't actually feel the emotions and you think that that strength but that's not strength true strength is feeling all the emotion but still stepping forward so that you actually experience life instead of instead of just plow through yeah so I'm more of an existentialist than a stoic and existentialist sort of are very ballsy about like death is happening the world is terrible but I'm

[46:05] gonna face it and not be afraid so it's it's a little bit the same idea like I'm not gonna fear the feelings I'm gonna know within myself and this is sort of the capacity that I want to develop and the people that I work with them and know within myself that it's it's actually all survivable until it's not like until your heart's no longer beating and then it's not but it's survivable up until that point we have any last last question thank you Carrie [Applause]

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