# Never Split the Difference: Chris Voss

Channel: FranklinCovey
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1CZnDUVR4k
Duration: 38 min
Language: English
Words: 6759
Transcript page: https://viewrankai.com/tools/youtube-transcript/K1CZnDUVR4k

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[0:07] thank you hello and welcome back to Franklin covey's weekly podcast on leadership with Scott Miller where each week we have the immense honor of interviewing some of the most influential Minds in the world we're now into our fifth year 250 episodes taped and soon to be aired great interviews coming up like Tony Robbins and brene brown and Reed Hoffman and we've interviewed some of the greatest Minds in the world including Liz Wiseman and Susan Kane Deepak Chopra are in a Huffington Ryan Serhant Ryan holiday Robin Sharma Stephen M markovi today our guest will not disappoint you before we talk about him remind you that each year we also

[0:51] publish a book based on this podcast the world's largest weekly leadership podcast called Master mentors volume one and volume two are now out in print digital audio and in video found on litvideobooks.com where each year I write for harpercollins a fast easy breezy collection of my 30 favorite interviews from the previous year with the permission of that guest I pull out one transformational Insight from them and write a chapter about that hope you'll pick up a copy of Master mentors volume one and volume two volume three coming out in the fall of 2023 on our way to 10 in the series today's guest is the seminal author he is the founder and

[1:32] principal of the Black Swan group his name is Chris Voss and he's authored a book that has sold nearly 4 million copies you know it as never lit the difference negotiations as if your life depended on it and he would know something about that as being a former FBI hostage negotiator Chris welcome to on leadership yeah thank you it's an absolute pleasure to be with you today thank you Chris no podcast is complete until you've landed Chris Voss so we're honored to have you teach us today a little bit more about negotiation uh Chris I've spent the better part of my nearly 40-year career in sales sales leadership and marketing

[2:13] where of course the essence of that is negotiation and uh compromise seeking third Alternatives today you're going to teach us some insights from the role that empathy plays in negotiation I'm sure you'll share some great stories on what are some of the great tenets of not just hostage negotiation where your life depends upon it but perhaps even in sales in relationships where relationships and sometimes paying your mortgage depends upon you being a great negotiator uh Chris talk a little bit about the Black Swan group and what led you to write never split the difference yeah well when I started on this whole journey of uh learning hostage

[2:49] negotiation Crisis Intervention it just seemed to be to me to be too powerful to just be limited to hostage negotiation actually started by volunteering on a suicide hotline and started applying that into my daily life and just kept doing it and it was effective like everybody wants to be understood you just you don't have to be in crisis to experience how transforming it is to be understood and continued on the journey while I was still an FBI agent I started to collaborate with Harvard because I want to learn about more about negotiation and I figured you know that was sort of the mecca of negotiation knowledge

[3:27] and when I was there at Harvard they said look you know you you guys you're doing the exact same thing we are the stakes are different but the Dynamics are the same so you ended up teaching uh at Harvard Law School in their negotiation course and then when I got out I was just ready when I left the FBI I was ready to put this into business and personal life and taught in a couple Business Schools made my students use the skills in their everyday life and then put it together enough that my son and I Brandon you know we thought we had it all together we put a book out

[4:00] and like I said it has done extraordinarily well selling nearly four million copies don't know anyone who's not a sales leader that hasn't read never split the difference uh Chris let's jump right into the concept of negotiation you say that people tend to have two basic needs when they're in negotiation they are to feel secure and to feel in control will you expand on those to open us up today yeah you know and and and what they really don't know is how much they need to feel understood but yeah people feel secure you don't want to be threatened I mean one of the first moves to get into really

[4:35] collaborative negotiation is removing yourself as a threat to the other side it could be as simple as your tone a voice your tone of voice before you finish the sentence begins to shape in their mind whether or not you're a threat you know those of us that are natural born assertives I'm a natural born assertive you know I think of myself as direct and honest that feels on the other end is blunt and attacking so if I don't watch my tone of voice before I finish the sentence I'm perceived to be a threat taking them out of security and then uh further on down and continuing with security what happens

[5:10] when you feel out of control I mean you start to panic you know your fears kick into into gear The Reptilian Brain or however you want to refer to it survival mode survival is largely negative very difficult to make an effective long-term deal with someone who felt out of control through the process they're very likely to not perform on the deal which is your real big problem yes there's nothing without how you don't get a how a good how then your yes is never going to do any good I mean that's an important point you mentioned your book is that kind of yes doesn't matter without the how uh Riff on that

[5:49] yeah well you know there's unfortunately there's something out there called momentum selling or the yes momentum fortunately unfortunately you know I at one point in time getting somebody to say yes a succession of yeses it's taught as each yes is a micro agreement or a tie down trying to get commitment now that at one point in time it was probably a good approach but people have been flim-flamed they've been bamboozled they've been talked into bad deals over yes and suddenly they found themselves in the middle of a bad deal so people are sort of yes abused globally and if so your yes could be a counterfeit yes the street kind of yes

[6:28] it's commitment confirmation and counterfeit vast majority of yeses are counterfeit you think you got to deal with a counterfeit yes with no how that deal is never going to happen so when you shift out of yes and you really get into how those sorts of problems go away how are we going to do this how are we going to move forward how are we going to talk about this if we run into problems there isn't a deal out there that at some point in time doesn't have an implementation problem you bring that up before it's happened you've already paved the groundwork for fixing it with the least amount of

[7:00] friction Chris another essential well said by the way I mean how many deals have I have managed or LED or been involved in where you got a yes that was perhaps at a fatigue or coercion or whatever whichever the three uh seeds you talked about and then implementation just you know goes you know ski want this on you one of the big themes of your negotiating method by the way can that that that's that's the scientific term that I like an awful lot I'm going to use it's galampas yes well please quote me on it my gift to you thank you Merry Christmas right Merry Christmas to you

[7:34] sir happy Hanukkah uh an important part of your book is about displaying empathy it's a central theme and negotiating skills talk to us we hear empathy every day from every thought leader but you have a bit of a different take on the importance of empathy in the role empathy plays talk about empathy as it relates to becoming a skilled negotiator yeah initially it's a barrier that's really hard to wrap your mind around it but once you get to the other side you know the phrase it's not about you when you start empathy is displaying to the other side that you understand where they're coming from and this is when I

[8:08] really started to collaborate with Harvard and I knew that we were going to think the same way they did because Bob manukan wrote this great book called Beyond winning it's principally a book about negotiating for lawyers but in it you know Bob talked about empathy and he said it's not about agreed or liking you don't kind of like the other side or agree with them in any way shape or form they have empathy or to demonstrate empathy let's let's let's even take it a step further demonstrating empathy and I remember as a hostage negotiation I'm like wow how am I supposed to have empathy with somebody from Al Qaeda that's just not

[8:46] going to happen or sympathy how am I supposed to have sympathy how am I supposed to agree with somebody from Al Qaeda if agreement or liking is the necessary element of empathy then I can't do that but if it's not if it's just demonstrating understanding articulating what their point of view is with no agreement no disagreement No Liking just stating it out then I can have I can use empathy I can display empathy with someone from a terrorist organization anywhere in the world and you know I'm not picking on uh Al Qaeda as the most visible but there's terrorist organizations everywhere because my job as a hostage negotiator

[9:23] to connect with them and change their behavior connect via empathy how do you do that just articulate how they see things you you see America as a capitalist um heartless anti whoever you are Society I've said that to no shortage of people in Terrorist situations I didn't agree that it was true and that's the hard part because if you're going to display empathy display it make the other side feel understood you say it in a way where you don't agree that it's true it's just you recognize their point of view and you prove to them you recognize their point of view by articulating it that ends up being

[10:04] transformative for the other side in fact Chris I think in the book you call it calculated empathy now obviously most of us all of us are majority of us are not in the role of Hostage negotiation or never will be and we're glad that you were and have trained others for the person who's listening in Washington that has a sales role we also know that everybody is in sales some of their careers are dependent upon selling and others less so what would you say is the rule that calculated empathy has for someone that's watching or listening who literally has a full-time sales job they carry a number they hold a bag so to

[10:40] speak yeah well it's you know it's calculated it's applied people smarts what's it calculated by what sort of um what's it applied via for and to speak in layman terms the brain is basically negative uh everyone who walks around in survival mode roughly again Layman estimation the Neuroscience matches it up pretty close people are basically 75 negative in survival mode that's the default that's what you wake up with first thing in the morning and in conflict and negotiations about conflict it's about dividing up resources the other side is going to be negative so what what are we going to calculate our approach with knowing they're negative to begin with to start

[11:22] with and then secondly what's the best way to get them out of it as it turns out demonstrating empathy simply observing their point of view especially the negative aspects of their point of view about us about ourselves is the best way to deactivate it diffuse it make it go away the negativity in their head is the elephant in the room you don't make the elephant a room go away by denying Sarah and you do less harm but it doesn't really help to ignore that it's there what's the best way to get rid of the elephant in the room the negative emotions that they woke up with because

[11:58] that's their survival mode call them out instead of saying something as simple as I don't want you to think the price of my product is high when someone calls a Black Swan group wants to know how much we charge we say we charge a lot we're going to charge you more than anybody else ever charge you for this sort of thing we're calling out the negative if not inoculating from it that's the crazy thing that we learned with the Black Swan method we can actually inoculate negatives from happening if you've asked me a question and I know my answer is going to hurt your feelings I'm going to say to you it's going to

[12:32] sound harsh and then I'll answer and it probably won't hurt your feelings if I hadn't said this is going to sound harsh before the answer your reaction would have been negative like who do you you know will you call me stupid you know uh you're not listening to me you're going to be insulted by it so what we're calculating all this by is by the basic human nature wiring and then what best diffuses it to move people into a better place so it can make a great deal Chris we're going to get into some tactics of negotiating here in a moment you shared some great stories in the book uh some not about

[13:07] hostage negotiation although you might call buying a car hostage negotiation you share a great story about your Toyota 4Runner and your negotiation for that for those of us out there bracing for that this season Walk us back through how you bought your Toyota 4Runner and what are some of the replicable lessons all of us can take when we're up against that kind of negotiation yeah it's a great example because you how do you how do you deactivate the other side of argument other side's arguments against you so I found this Toyota 4Runner and it was this beautiful red color salsa red Pearl now that was just like to me that

[13:49] was like the coolest most attractive color I mean I loved it and I'd wanted a brand new Toyota SUV for a long time and like my desire for this truck was just like oozing from my pores so when I started to talk about this guy and I came in with a very low offer and then I said you know I got to tell you something I'm embarrassed to make this offer because this truck is beautiful like I'm in love with this truck I mean this is the sexiest color I ever saw and I've looked around and I can't find another one like this for well over 100

[14:28] miles and it's worth every penny of what you guys are asking for and then I you know I hit him with the empathy precedes assertion I said about how am I supposed to pay that price and I had just articulated every reason why this guy was going to talk me into buying a truck I'm in love with it and instead since I've taken a wind out of a salesman's arguments he just kind of looked at me and he blinked at me a few times and then he turned around he went back in the back and he came back out with a lower offer and again the empathy I said you know

[15:04] I'm I'm embarrassed like it was worth what you guys were asking for before now you come back with a lower offer and I I'm I'm I'm in love with this truck I'm totally in love with it like if I can't get this truck I probably won't be able to sleep at night I said everything that he would have said to me about what he thought of strategic advantages were and then I hit him again with the how much how am I supposed to pay that and he kept coming down and coming down and coming down he finally came all the way down to my price in fact you you truncated that he

[15:33] actually gave you some financing options he had all kinds of options of how you could do it but you stuck with your your principal if you will of uh of yeah I'm embarrassed I can't afford that I really want it but you stuck with your original line of thinking that's difficult for us right because when we think of negotiation we think of give and take we also know there's different types of negotiation those who negotiate you know when they move in they've moved in from an extreme position they never thought they would stay in the first place what advice is there any like one or two

[16:06] pieces of advice you would give to people that don't want to feel manipulative they want to feel like they're seeking a mutual win-win without getting screwed remind us some tactical methods where we can feel we can feel like both of us are winning without us feeling like we're giving up too much yeah well you know there's always a better deal for the other side I mean there's there's always something the other side could throw in that they might not even know is important to you so how do you find it how do you get there some people referred to negotiation as the art of uh letting the

[16:40] other side have your way or letting them talk themselves into your deal get them talking uh the best thing to do to get Mutual collaboration is to just start talking with them make sure you demonstrate understand so and you say things like all right so far you've told me and then you lay out the things that they've told you and then you follow that up with as a result you feel and lay out what you sense they're feeling get them talking people will tell you everything if they don't think they're wasting their time and if you've removed yourself as a threat there's no reason not to tell you

[17:23] so take an approach where you get them talking you find out what they're hoping for what they're worried about you're teasing out of them in a variety of ways that's where you get both sides to a better deal there's always a better deal Chris is there a specific hostage situation from your years in the FBI where we might even recognized this or you could talk about it where you implemented some of the Tactical things talking slowly repeating the last three words they said into the first sentence that you use can you tell us a story where perhaps those were life or death but we can actually

[18:01] Implement in our own lives yeah well we had we had a kidnapping in the Philippines terrorist group claimed to be Al Qaeda related south of the Philippines really bad guys regardless of who they're affiliated with and they had an American they were asking for 10 million dollars at Ransom but War damages they were making up all this nonsense about 500 years of Oppression you know Philippines has had Colonial Invaders 500 years ago with the Spanish Japanese have been there the Americans are essentially had been Colonial Invaders in the early 1900s uh that's that's what this guy was saying the terrorists were saying on behalf of uh the justification for the

[18:44] penalty for war damages not a ransom and we went back and forth on this and finally the negotiator that I was coaching to talk to the bad guy I said look we're going to summarize this cat today this is this is a culmination of all the skills you know take everything they've said and even add a few things that it may have left out then start throwing in how they felt about it and in in this one until you understand how powerful it is to fully and completely make somebody feel understood it can transform somebody and so I got my negotiator on the phone we we

[19:23] practiced you know we've been prepping for this for days is only trained and untrained and I trained him into this and summarized everything that the terrorists had said everything and what you're driving for is a result of a summary the magic two words are that's right you're not looking for yes and you're not looking for your right they're looking for that's right whatever language they speak there's a difference between that's right and you're right you're going for that's right he laid everything out to the terrorist kidnapper and after a few moments of Silence the terrorist kidnapper said that's right and then we let it sink in It's always

[20:07] important to let it sink in and there are a few more moments of silence and guy was coaching said uh you know what we speak again in a couple of days and they hung up the phone and the ransom went away they're 10 million dollars when the phone was hung up disappeared it never never came back kidnapping took a couple twists and turns or the coming months Ransom was never mentioned again non-substantive demands non-monetary demands were brought up intermediaries a number of things finally our hostage walked away on Monday Thursday the Thursday before Easter our hostage walked Walked Away which means the terrorists got nothing kidnappers didn't get a dime

[20:49] I was back in the Philippines a couple of months after a couple weeks after and connected back up with The Negotiator been coaching and he said you're not going to believe who called me on the phone and I said I don't know it was a Terrace from the kidnapping still knew my negotiator by his undercover name still had his undercover phone number and I said all right what'd he say and he said have you been promoted yet you're really good at what you do I was going to kill the American and he kept me from doing it they should promote you this coming from a guy who'd

[21:28] lost everything calling to pay his respects to my negotiator because he'd felt heard out and even though he quote lost the negotiation he felt so respected and so connected to this adversary that he called him to let him know that they were still on good terms Chris speak more about the techniques you employ when in high stakes negotiation specifically the two I mentioned around speaking slowly and repeating the last three words someone said talk about those two things or more and more yeah well you know you're referring to what we call the late night FM DJ voice which is a downward inflecting voice you know you're slowing your pace down and you

[22:16] don't have to be a man with a deep voice to use it anybody can downward inflect the key male or female to downward reflecting no matter how what your voice is pitch is is just dropping your chin when you talk that automatically brings your voice down automatically removes is the threat automatic automatically makes it feel to them like you know what you're talking about is calm confidence and calm is contagious so the voice again begins to affect the velocity of somebody's thinking before you've even finished the sentence now repeating the the three words this is the hostage negotiator's mirror it's not the body language mirror it's a

[23:00] repetition of the one to three ish last words sometimes you could just repeat one word sometimes you could repeat no more than five maybe as many as five you start with the last words that they just said it's a great thought connector for the other side it tells the other side that you heard what they said but you need some more connection you need some rewarding it's actually anytime you want to say what did you mean by that it's a superior way to continue somebody to talk because if you repeat their words the message you're sending to the other person is like I got the words

[23:40] I just really I really please need it and rewarded in a different way if you ask somebody what did you mean by that half the time they just repeat it only louder like an American overseas all right just talk louder and use the same words I don't understand so the mirror that you're talking about is just this great connector skill it's a great negotiation skill for introverts or for analytic types that don't like to say a lot because you don't got to say a lot to Mary it is repeat the last three words of what they just said or maybe you can move it around and select one to three words

[24:14] that you want to you want to dig into you want to find more out about so the mayor is a great a great skill to get the other side talking you mentioned this earlier in the interview and again I'd like to speak perhaps to those people who are finding themselves in some sort of negotiation every day which is all of us but primarily those who perhaps are the lifeblood of every business which are those that are actually selling you know not much happens until you sell something and can fund the rest of the company you talked about sort of giving the bad news up front maybe even sharing

[24:46] all the issues they're going to have you know you won't find this with us or you or expect us to be too more expensive than the other or perhaps maybe confessing your own sins up front so you neuter them is there a time when that goes overboard what's the best calibration of sort of putting on the table the elephant in the room so that you can you know brush it aside or or worst case perhaps it becomes the focal point of the customer what's the right calibration of that yeah well everybody knows all the things you'd like to deny your good instinct tells you see there is a problem it

[25:23] could be a problem it's effectively making a list of the things you'd like to deny that and and it's a list like it's no less than five things they're going to come up the other side's always going to worry about whether or not their time is being wasted the other side is always going to worry about if you're if you're if it's when money's involved that it's a financial grab on your part there's a number of things that are always going to be there make your list and then drop them out there about three at a time say you know you're probably wondering whether or not you're wasting your time

[25:55] you probably think we're asking an awful lot you probably got a lot of pressure underneath probably got better things to do than talk to me three to four at a time your list should be no less than five it might be as much as 15 or 16. read the moment gather data with your eyes effective pauses and we call it Dynamic silence if the other side is not reacting it doesn't mean you're missing it means you're on the right track it's a really counterintuitive response to getting the negatives out of the way getting rid of the elephants one at a time a lot of times people are new to it say

[26:35] they didn't react so they're horrified that they're missing a mark not reacting is you're on the right track and you got to keep going keep going until the other side stops you and says you're being too hard on yourself or they're going to give you a clear signal that you've sufficiently deactivated The Neighbors now what happens if you bring something up that they weren't thinking about here's the ridiculous answer to that it doesn't plant that negative it inoculates him from that's why I said if you ask me a question and my answer is going to make it seem dismissive of you or that I don't think

[27:18] you were paying attention you haven't felt a negative yet but I'm going to say this is going to sound harsh and that will have inoculated from the negative response so this approaching the negatives by calling them out is ridiculously powerful way to move forward as quickly as possible and make great things happen Chris in the book you list several types of negotiating Styles right there's a whole most self-help books and I've read a few thousand of them talk about you know how to deal with difficult people how to deal with you know Annoying bosses how to deal you know no one ever writes a book about how to deal with you

[27:55] like how do others deal with you because it's always the other person you write in a particular three styles of negotiation techniques the analyst the assertive and the accommodator recognizing that all of us have that style as well will you talk about each of the three of these first the analyst what's the best way to deal with someone who is the analyst and perhaps what's the best way to understand when you are the analyst as well talk about the analysts first analysts are highly sensitive to um a couple things uh they hate disagreement they hate conflict they see conflict is one possible set of behaviors in many sets of

[28:38] behaviors and they say incredibly kind of conflict is incredibly counterproductive like you never do disagree with an animals if you got a different point of view analysts love data so what instead of saying to them I disagree you say look let's compare that and be happy to do that I'd be happy to open up and talk with you they just don't want this agreement they also tend to be very thoughtful so Silence with them is extremely important because they want to take in what you've said and they want to think about it which means if you're the type of person that can't shut up I mean analysts

[29:13] you're going to drive an analyst crazy because they want time to think and two out of two out of three of these types they have trouble shutting up for very different reasons but an analyst like silence they hate to be interrupted they're happy to talk if you've got data to talk about so these are the things that the analysts really focus on they come off as being cold and distant they love the word dispassionate and what's funny about analysts is they're very passionate about being dispassionate which is a real contradiction but they like to see themselves as is not getting emotional over things the point of fact people need to avoid

[29:57] negative emotions not emotions but negative emotions that's your analyst speak to what you call the accommodation and accommodators I mean they love they love love love positive interaction they're naturally upbeat they smile a lot they laugh and they joke around they're very like a bowl they want to be liked they want you to like the interaction analysts or accommodators tend to make more deals overall than the other two types do they tend to be hope-based deals and as we all know hope is not a strategy so what the analysts make more deals they always hope that things will work out and the implementation could be all

[30:43] over the place I mean nothing but problematic implementation with accommodators because they were hoping things would be okay and when they knew about something that was going to be a problem they hope it'll go away and they don't talk it through or mention it but they're very likable and they have a tendency to make a lot of deals and last you refer to one as called the assertive yeah the direct and honest type you know I'm a natural born assertive uh you know and I once had a colleague tell me when I was being my normal direct and honest type he said to me dealing with you is like

[31:16] getting hit in the face with a brick the sodas are very control oriented they want to keep talking because they got to stay in control got to keep the upper hand got to keep talking and if I go silent if it sort of goes silent on you they feel out of control and if you go silent on an assertive they think that's because they you you want to hear more they want you to talk more so you know imagine an analyst and an assertive analyst is grateful for the silence to think and it sort of won't shut up it is sort of very direct and honest sees one

[31:48] path to what they want have a tendency to be lacking in reciprocity overall but very honest I mean you know where an assertive is coming from and each one of these types has something that's necessary essential and inadequate and to be a great negotiator you got to let the other side know where you're coming from you just got to be nicer about it more likable like the accommodator and the accommodator is not going to tell you what they want because they're worried about it scaring you off so that's where they fall short the likability but they lack assertion and the analyst we'll talk with you uh they're not

[32:27] terribly likable because they seem cold and distant and they're less assertive on what they're putting forward because they don't want the conflict but each type has a natural skill that's really essential if coupled with the other skills they can be great Chris broad question but what do most of us get wrong when we approach negotiations going first I mean there's all sorts of bad instruction out there go first make your value proposition uh anchor high like anchoring High drives deals from the table that you should have made and you never know and which means you wasted your time so going first and anchoring high are bad

[33:11] habits however first you go we like to say he or she who speaks first loses also he or she who speaks most loses so let the other side go first if they're talking more than you are and they talk first you probably gathered a lot of great information developed a great rapport with them and they're going to be much more amenable to working with you and they're going to avoid working against you valuable information beyond that is there one thing you would implore all of our listeners and viewers today to say if you can stop doing this or start doing this Beyond talking most and going first

[33:52] what's one thing that would improve everyone's negotiating competency it would really be inviting the other side to talk first I mean making sure that the other side is has heard you out now you may need to put a little encourages here and there probably your tone of voice two out of three people have a bad ton of voice assertives and the analysts their tone of voice is kind of productive and then just you know Hazard a guess as to how they're doing in the moment emotionally don't say how are you Hazard a guess say you know looks like you're having a good day feels like you're having a tough day

[34:32] looks like something's on your mind looks you look distracted to get the conversation started is a great way to get them tall Chris our time is ending but I have to ask this question and it's very Donald rumsfeld-esque you say there are three types of information no knowns known unknowns and unknown unknowns uh talk to those three as relates to all of us that have professional jobs that are not in the military we're not in the FBI we're not law enforcement officers not dealing in life or death situations but we are running businesses with P L's and investors and shareholders and expectations and people that trust us

[35:10] customers vendors employees talk about no knowns known unknowns and unknown unknowns yeah it's kind of a mind vendor try to wrap your mind around all those but start with all the things that you just listed your P L's your investors your deadlines your budgets all the things that you're holding back in a negotiation that you feel that if the other side knew them you'd be compromised they're important they could change the entire outcome that's one set of unknowns it's unknown to the other side there's never a time when you're not holding that stuff back if that's true then the other side's holding up back really important stuff too that if you

[35:52] just knew it if they could trust you with it if you could trust them with your unknowns your hidden information you guys can make a better deal but simultaneously you're afraid to because if it could change the outcome it could change the outcome for better for worse in in your head in your mind now the unknown unknowns like what is that stuff overlap like if if you're hiding stuff in their hiding stuff there's an overlap of those two things it's a really great deals what we call black swans the in tiny little things that are probable that could change everything that's where the really sweet information

[36:32] uh lies so the the process of discovering the other side's unknowns hidden information and then comparing it to yours is that Donald Rumsfeld asked unknown unknowns there's some real dynamite in there some real solid gold for both sides if you developed enough of a trust factor between the two of you to be able to actually exchange important closely held information Chris why does someone hire the Black Swan group we help people negotiate Deals they never thought were possible we give them the best chance of success for not leaving money on the table and a Black Swan method has been shown to work in every country on Earth never

[37:19] split the differences in 36 countries in 36 languages it sells well in China with Chinese negotiating with other Chinese it sells well in India in Pakistan in Latin America it sells well globally because people globally want to be understood and we teach people how to have something that works everywhere Chris Voss it's been an honor to add you to our roster of phenomenal guests on leadership your book never split the difference negotiating as if your life depended upon it thanks for your time today appreciate you teaching us a few small things on how to better maybe negotiate the price of our car in the coming days as well too thank you sir

[38:01] great having you on yeah pleasure was mine thank you and we'll see you back here next week for a new conversation on leadership [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you

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