# How a Layoff and an Ice Cream Bet Launched 2 Indie Apps — Adrian Eves, Pediapal & Auralog

Channel: Launched by RevenueCat
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcqg4tPtMfw
Duration: 1 hr 4 min
Language: English
Words: 13252
Transcript page: https://viewrankai.com/tools/youtube-transcript/Dcqg4tPtMfw

---

[0:00] I wanted to make a cool mechanic to the conference because I wanted to have something unique that kind of gives it a bit of identity. What Swift Sonic is going to do, it's going to do two talks and a break. There's going to be an opener speaker and a headliner speaker. The headliner speaker is somebody that has a pretty lengthy speaking career and the opener is someone who is a first-time speaker ideally. I told them that 90minute space is for them to use as creatively as they desire or not at all. And I hope that it helps those folks develop some good mentor, mentee, and friendship relationships. I think that there's a lot of potential to happen if I'm not trying to

[0:34] control it. Welcome to Launched. I'm Charlie Chapman, and today I'm excited to bring you the developer and conference organizer behind the health apps, Pediapal, and Aralog, Adrien Eves.

[0:58] Adrian, welcome to the show. Thanks, Charlie. I'm actually really, really, really excited to be here. I've always wanted to be on Launched and I've seen like so many people go through it. So, being invited was like a dream come true and I'm still kind of like freaking out. I think I have like tremors from like excitement. Well, I have a I have a confession to make to you uh right now actually. So, uh, you and I, we're we're pretty good friends. Just get that out of the gate here. And, uh, a thing that people who do this kind of thing, like hosting a podcast, uh, will often find themselves in a position of, is when you have somebody who you're close friends

[1:35] with, who you're not you're not as embarrassed to ask things of, uh, you kind of keep them in your back pocket for a time when you when you know you're going to need an emergency uh, an emergency guest. And so you've kind of been sitting in that uh in that backlog for a while as my like yeah I could ask him on now but if I need him in a pinch I he's he's a person I know I can count on and so uh I did a I did a live episode in Finland at Arctic Conf and uh it was with Frederick RLE great great episode but my audio recording failed the video worked but I didn't have good audio so

[2:14] we're going to re-record which is fine sometimes I think that makes for better episodes anyway But that meant that I'm down an episode and I kind of need to like get one quickly. I didn't have any uh in the can. And so finally uh your your waiting is over. I've sort of felt bad leaving you sitting there. But uh but I knew that I could just jump on and we could talk. Well, I know we can talk about anything for a while. Really, the goal of this episode is to keep us, you know, actually on task here. And so that's that's my job, though. A lot of good things have happened from happy little

[2:46] accidents. I'm like a huge believer in the happy little accident uh philosophy. One of the things I started doing with this show before we before we jump into your whole story is to have you give a quick elevator pitch for your apps that way cuz I often just forget to get to that point cuz a lot of apps evolve kind of out of these long stories. And so really really quickly um before we get into your backstory, can you give me the quick pitch on Pedia Pal and then on Ralog? Yes, actually because I'm so like nervous right now. I pulled it up and uh so Paul Hudson likes to put little Easter eggs

[3:19] in his books about his friends and stuff and so he was clever and sneaky enough to put one in for PDF conveniently in the elevator pitch section. So I'm going to read what he wrote. He wrote PDF let you track all your family's health measurements easily and that's a great pitch to be completely honest. It's a very good oneliner. I would have taken probably two paragraphs if I'm like just off the top of my head. So it yeah, it's really just designed to make life easier for parents, especially with multiple children, keeping track of measurements and medicines and the like. It's kind of a it's a health hub for your kids. Oh, that's yeah, that's a great way to phrase it. And

[3:56] then what about Arlog? Arlog is so I've always suffered from migraines and I needed something that I can use in a pinch when I'm hurting and I can't read anything. So, Arlo is designed to be the most loweffort yet highreward migraine app there is. And it's really I kind of noticed an emergent pattern with these two apps is so I have ADHD like I've been diagnosed with it since I was a small child. And I think both of these apps come from a place where they try to make these managing these things easier and a little more attractive to do. So, PDF tries to keep everything

[4:28] in one place. Arlo tries to make a painful thing incredibly easy and rewarding to use. Awesome. So, uh, now let's kick off the show the way I've kicked off the show for for years at this point, which is, uh, asking you three questions to to get everybody to know you. Um, and that is where are you from? Uh, do you have a formal education related to what you do? And then what did you do before you started building these indie apps? Okay, so where I'm from, it's kind of a complicated question. I currently live in Mobile. I lived all over in like different parts of the

[4:58] US, especially on the eastern side. Mobile is in Alabama for Oh, Mobile, Alabama. My bad. Sorry. I'm used to just kind of Catholic throwing it up being like, "Yeah, I live in Mobile." No, Mobile, Alabama. I think my favorite place I've lived is uh is Santa Clara, California. I love it. Has a special place in my heart. So, I was a software I studied software engineering at Auburn University. It was really cool because I got incredibly hyped up for it because Tim Cook came to visit and they said he wouldn't Yeah, that's his alma mater, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so, I went down there and met him anyway. It was like one of the few times I broke a role cuz I was like when is this going

[5:32] to happen again and I had to tell him thank you for all that he did. He's really inspired me and he was like keep at it and I was like okay and I graduated. So Tim Poke if you're listening I kept at it and then how did I get to do India app? It's a really really long curvy road because I have so many like different interests like new ones pop up each week. The TLDDR on that is I have had a long and very fortunate career with things, especially building websites or whatever. And I've learned that I'm happiest when I'm genuinely helping people or expressing like my creative ability

[6:05] to its fullest extent. And so I actually got a job with Apple. I worked on the accessibility team and that was just really fulfilling work. And actually I want to just because I know this story already. Uh I think there's a little nugget in there that's also a useful thing for people to hear which is like part of the way you got that job. Obviously interviews and all the typical things but you

[6:27] had done some some community leg work before you joined Apple right do you want to talk about that? I think it's funny you say leg work because I genuinely love just being a part of like wherever like people are and like what's happening and uh the way it worked out was yeah so like I did Iowa happy hour like really early on when it got started uh yeah just a background on that like uh cuz I was actually sort of part of it at the very beginning I just now remembered but like during the pandemic we were all sad uh and uh you know some people solved that by starting podcasts,

[7:03] which is what I kind of did, but uh normal people found ways to, you know, get people together and a group of of folks started basically a Zoom call that slowly grew and he called it uh iOS dev happy hour and it just grew and grew and grew and you were one of the like early organizers for that, right? Is that the right word? Yeah. So, it was Alan and then I was lucky that I got if he let me help him, I was like, can I please help you? I was like I love like I just love helping people um and like being involved in things. I think I just can't be bored. My family has always said

[7:35] that uh you know I have to learn how to be bored and I just refuse. But Allan was really gracious and let me help and then Frank Foster joined like around the same time that I did and yeah it's had like some pretty cool lineages and so now like the current staff is you know Alex Silver, Michaela Karen, Chris and Chris Woo, they've joined us as well. It's usually Saturday afternoons my time. Um yeah, but pretty much is it once a month? Well, we we do once a month. Yeah. But during the pandemic, it was like that was that became this like hangout place for iOS developers. Uh and it felt like that

[8:12] community in particular, the organizers sort of became a revolving door because uh people would be helping out. They would get to know a bunch of people and then all of a sudden they'd be like, "Ah, I have to go. I just got a job at a fruit company and then new people would kind of come in. Uh, and you were you were sort of part of that lineage, right? Mhm. Yeah. No, it was um it was very cool. It was very fortunate. Actually, one of the other co-hosts at the time, Ting Becker, she saw that they were looking for someone on the accessibility team and she

[8:41] put me in the mentions. I would have never been so bold to like go in the mentions and be like, "Pick me." I was like, "Oh, I'm way too far away for that like for a career, whatever." But then like one conversation led to another conversation led to another conversation and it ended up working out and it was really awesome. It's one of the best teams I've ever been a part of and it really kind of if you're passion to do something is a flame. It turned that into like a full on fire and so that was really cool and I'm so grateful to everyone on the accessibility team

[9:09] even now who still put up with me when I surprise show up in their labs. And so your time spent doing that, obviously you can't go into details of what you did at Apple, but like the focus was on from everybody I talked to on that team, it really seems like the focus is on like all right, we have this big bucket of technologies. What can we do to make the lives of our users and particularly users who have unique uh situations they have to deal with, how can we make their lives easier? And sometimes it's really simple things like inverting colors or whatever. And sometimes it's these

[9:44] complicated algorithmic things like the the motion dots that fly around on the screen. I imagine that was extremely rewarding work. No, absolutely it was. If anyone knows me, you know that I love The Legend of Zelda and one of the things I love about The Legend of Zelda. It was it was basically a ticking clock to see how long uh until Legend of Zelda got brought up on this podcast. But the way the reason I bring it up is one of the satisfying things about it is you have like these

[10:10] dungeons that present really interesting problems usually around like a central mechanic or an item. Accessibility really felt like a unique set of problems to solve like you can be really creative with it. And so I think it activated the same part of my brain because everyone there even now are doing like such creative solutions to problems and even like new things get a lot of wow that's really cool that's really new but after a year or so like you can hardly imagine your life without them especially if you rely upon them and so like that's I think that's a good sign of making something really well and solving solutions really really well and in a lasting way. I really like

[10:49] seeing that work coming out constantly because it's a nice reminder of not everything we do has to be targeted at a business goal that moves some key metric higher for revenue downstream revenue or engagement or something like that. Sometimes you can spend time and money and energy just making things better. And I do think in the long term that you know is good for the business but even if it's not it's just good for people. Uh and that's software software development can be that it's not just uh you know MRR juicing. The MRR juicing is pretty nice. Money is also good. I you know I work at the money company. Uh we we love money as well. This is not a knock on that. But

[11:33] uh I like having a good mix of everything in the Yeah. Yeah. No, but that team is great and you know I'm so grateful to have been a part of it. like those people, the products were great, but the people who I got to work with really shaped a core part of who I am even now. And so I hope that they all know that how grateful I am for them. You know, while you're at Apple, you can't obviously do your own sort of indie projects, at least not that you can publish. Had you done anything before you started at Apple? Not really. Although, you know, I talked about it a lot like they like,

[12:06] "Oh, I'm going to do it this year. I'm going to ship something this year." I think all of us have been in that uh part of our careers where it's it's always an idea. Maybe you've even hit new project in Xcode a dozen times. I think what I did with Apple because I like I knew the rules around like distribution or whatever. So I wasn't even like it was nice to take a break from oh I got to make something. I got allowed to like more of like making music and stuff. So I made a lot more like video game soundtrack tunes and you know I practice like playing guitar and banjo and stuff

[12:34] for my own like kind of folky backtracks. So it was a cool time then. That stuff's never gonna see the light of day, but I enjoyed it. But then, so after your time at Apple though, uh you you got a job at another, you know, software development company doing iOS work. Like you said, you you always talked about doing indie development like a lot of people do, but what was the spark that started the the sort of process of like, hey, I'm actually going to like really do this thing and get get a product out there? So, it's a really good question and I think it was honestly a bit of

[13:05] necessity. So, I worked at Disney. I had a great time there. Worked on some really cool stuff. Again, got to use my accessibility knowledge and that was really fun. But I was part of like their layoffs and that's a thing that happens to people. And you know, I bear them no ill will. You know, I I do feel for the people responsible for those decisions. But I had a conversation with Paul when I was feeling pretty mopy about it. And he said, "At the very least, you need to make an indie app so that way you always have like something you can fall back on and like start to grow it

[13:34] now. So that way if you find yourself in this situation again, it can help lessen the blow a financial safety net. Yeah. Yeah. And I knew that like I wasn't going to publish something and everyone's going to go, "Oh man, like yes, this is this is it." Uh cuz I'm going to be so for real. PDM version 1.0 was not it. Uh like I redesigned it like last summer and I'm a lot more proud of it now than I am then. I'm happy that like I made something and finally shipped it. That's a story like for later. But yeah. And so I really did some soulsearching kind of like I really want to like

[14:05] identify a problem to solve like what I want to do and I got some false starts in some other things because I couldn't really see how they would help and then pie came about because I kept getting lost in all these notes that like that my partner and I would share and I was like my child who's like 3 years old I know she's not like 11 in. I was like, "So that's like an old node." And so I was like, "Proble, problem." And so I got to work making Media Pal and that's kind of what we use. It's really nice. And I had some supportive friends who still helped test it out. And so it's

[14:38] been really really awesome and it was really good. I think it was a really good first experience. And also shout out to our mutual friend Mustafa for helping me with the harder cloud kit stuff of PDPL because I was really struggling. and he had given a talk in Singapore I believe where he had all these like force unwraps in uh his clocket solution and so he gave it to me as is and I was like okay Mustava I know we got a lot of force unwraps here but like can we like look at it together and he gave me so much of his time and effort it was really nice and he published it into

[15:12] uh into my cloudkit or my cloud kit so it has these initials and if you are somebody that wants to have some easy cloud kit stuff. It's really adaptable to like anything like core data, Swift data, pretty much any persistence model. You can also double it up with CloudKit. I recommend checking out his repo. Fantastic. I can vouch. I've loved it. It's evolved quite nicely. And so he's very talented. So again to kind of wrap up kind of the Pedia pal arriving on the scene, I do think that yes, it takes a village to raise a child, but I also I think it takes a village to

[15:50] raise an India app developer at some point. So I I had a lot of I had a lot of help from a lot of people who really genuinely care about me. What was sort of the thesis of you know v1 a pedia pile? So you're using you're using Apple Notes, but Apple Health Kit exists to theoretically store health data. Obviously, like you mentioned, you know, you you were kind of looking for a problem to solve and and you found one in in trying to store your child's health data, but like what led to let's build an app and then what was the idea behind the app in terms of how

[16:25] is this different than other options that are out there? So, what led to Let's Build an App was I finally got really excited that I had a problem that I could translate into an app, which is weird because you when you have a problem, you're like, "Oh man, that's a problem." But I was like, "Have you ever seen the movie Enchanted with like with Amy Adams?" She's like, "I'm angry." Then she goes, "I'm angry." She's like really excited to like experience anger. And so like I was I felt like that I was excited to experience the problem that I could develop into an app. And so like no

[16:52] questions asked, I just jumped into it. And I kind of realized during it that health kit exists for individual users, but we don't really have like a health kit for kids. Yes. And so one of the things that I will be putting in PDPL at some point in the hopefully not so distant future is as parents kids get older, they're going to get their own phones. I would like for PediaPal to be able to export their records so that way they can import it into Health Kit and have like a complete story of their health. I don't look at it. I don't know anyone's health like whatever. I don't get

[17:23] sent anything, you know. So, I hope that whatever people log at that point, they'd be satisfied with and it would help, especially with medical stuff with doctors or whatever. So, that way, you know, folks can enjoy happy, long, joyful lives. Yeah. And like you mentioned, you so you don't store anything cuz like you were talking about earlier, you're using CloudKit for all of your for all of your data. So, that means you have literally no access to any of this data. It's all like correct in there all encrypted. And so I assume that was part of it. Like so whenever you were getting close to the launch, how were you sort of pitching it? Was it I mean like your original pitch is it's

[18:03] sort of the the health hub for for your children's lives or your family's life. Was that kind of the main pitch? That was because also at the same time that was my first foray into being like a serious indie developer. And so I'm going to be completely honest, I didn't really have any knowhow on how to market or what to market. I just thought that if I willed my problems hard enough that people would get it and that's what I tried doing and like I mean it had some mixed results but I don't want to will problems that hard anymore. So, I guess to that point then, did you do a did you

[18:37] try to do a big splashy launch? Like, was there a something like that or did you just kind of like hit publish and then now it's out there and then you start trying to market it? So, I'm was always set on March 3rd. I just really wanted that to be like the day and it was like I was really pushing it and a lot of my friends for no reason at all or just cuz like you look at the calendar and you're like this would work well. I think to me I feel like if I had a sliding deadline there would be a risk of not doing it especially cuz I hadn't shipped anything at that point. So that

[19:06] to me it was like better to have something than nothing at all. And I also for like 50% of the app developed it kind of secretly because I wanted the instant gratification especially telling like you and our friend group being like guys I'm making an app like whatever. But sometimes that instant gratification that's all you get what you kind of need in that moment and you're like well I don't really need sometimes. Yeah. Like there's two there's two ways you can think about pre-announcing a thing. For some people it's like it creates this maniacal sense of deadline in your head because you're like well I have to get it out there like I said it and it's really

[19:41] embarrassing and so it forces you to kind of do it. But sometimes you get all of the endorphin rush by announcing it because you've announced it and then you're just kind of like oh well I got that thing and then your motivation just dries up. I don't know if there's a good theory for how to determine which one of those people you are or maybe different people are different in different situations, but it is kind of a weird uh trend. I'm definitely in the former cap where like if I announce something, it really lights a fire under my butt to be like I intellectually know nobody else cares about what I've said, but in my head I'm like, I said it like I have to do that

[20:16] now. Uh and so it it helps usually, but yeah, it can go either way. And that's yeah, that's kind of where I was going for it. And you know, a lot of people were really nice to me. Like Chris Lindsay was like, "It's okay if you don't make the March 3rd deadline." Like he see I was getting stressed out about it and he was being a very good friend to me, but I was like, "No." I was like, "Adrian Ees is going to hit all the things that he says he's going to do." Even though in the past he hasn't always, but I hit it and for better, for worse, you know, I had like some leadup to it. I

[20:44] was like, "Oh, something's coming." And like basically I was pitching it in a way as if I had like an exciting expecting audience looking at me all the time which now looking back I'm kind of like but you know it was fun to get caught up in that part at least you know it was fun the little theatrics of it can be pretty fun and by theatrics you mean like on your personal social yeah kind of like oh Pet's coming here's like a feature spotlight that it's going to have and it's like household sharing Ooh, tell your friend. So then, so you got it by March 3rd. What was the

[21:21] feeling of releasing it then? It was It was pretty nice to have it done. You know, I added I wanted to make sure I had like a week ahead of time before review just because I felt like I was going to feel a little crushed if it uh didn't get out on time. And so luckily that went well. Rejected or something. Yeah. I would have been like, but it happened and I felt really excited. But I think an important thing for creators to know, and this is a lesson I've learned time and time again, and I think I finally get it. We'll see. A lot of us think that we're going to ship something and

[21:50] then that's going to be it, and that's going to sustain us. And the reality of it is whether it sustains you financially or not, that's one thing. But in your passions and in your mind and in your even in your living, it's going to last for a moment. And however long that moment is depends. But the launch of Pedia Pal was an exciting moment for sure, but it doesn't last forever, you know, like it it's it's a moment. It's a cool moment, but then it's like, okay, what now? Yeah. And so I wasn't I truly wasn't prepared to contend with the what now? And so I kind of ideated a couple

[22:24] things, fixed a few bugs that I saw, you just kind of built up like a couple things here and there over the course of from March to June. Was there a big uptake? like the big update happened September. Okay. So, when you originally launched it, it wasn't like money starts rolling in, you know, this is a new business. Okay. Definitely not that. And that's okay. That's how it's kind of how the story is supposed to start. There's different goals people have with releasing an app. I feel like for you, there's an element of you wanted to build like a financial safety net to a degree. There's also this element of like you want to have this sort of portfolio piece,

[23:03] a piece of yourself that's out there amuse to add features to and to work on over time, right? Yeah. And so like the thing is, and I'll be completely honest, I didn't know what PDF was was trying to be in terms of that question you just asked. I didn't have it pegged to a specific thing like you're gonna be a money maker. This is like my portfolio piece. I didn't think that far enough ahead and so I just kind of was okay with it being whatever it you know unfolded as and you know I'm still figuring out what it's unfolding as you know uh and it's definitely a journey but it's

[23:41] definitely a journey worth taking and you know you learn I think whatever you ship at the end of the day you get something from it regardless you may get money from a successful app or you might learn something really valuable that helps your next app you said that there was an uptake in September. Yes, because what's the story there? The story, two words. Liquid glass. Okay. Wait,

[24:06] wait, wait, wait, wait. So, Pediapal, that was just last year. Yeah. Oh, wow. That was long. First birthday. Okay. Wow. Okay. So, this was this was last year. So, you released it in you said March 3rd. March of 2025. And then WWDC happens. So, you have the app now at you get to go to your first dubdub with with an indie app, which is I feel like a different way to experience. Uh, it was so cool. I recommend it. That was a big goal for me because there's something about having like I I keep calling it a muse, but it really is like if you're a developer who works at a company,

[24:41] you get to care about your craft and there's lots of stuff you get to do within your company that's very fun, but there's something about like this little thing on the side that you 100% control. And when you're watching WWDC sessions and something looks fun, you can just be like, I can do that. I can do that here. I don't need anybody's permission and I can just go with it. And it's a really different way of experiencing, you know, the big trunch of new technologies that

[25:04] we get to play with every year. Yeah, that was really cool. And I think that's what happened. Honestly, I think when they announced liquid glass, I was overwhelmed with potential. And also foundation models was super cool because up until then I'd really wanted to do some kind of feature where you could have it like summarize kind of your last couple weeks of of recordings and have it like say something to the doctor. Um because my partner whenever I would go to the pediatrician she would write a really nice paragraph cuz she has she's a vetinarian so has like a decent medical background and I would just read it off like a script. I'd be like, "This thing

[25:37] happened and oh yes, we're feeling this." This very specific thing that I can barely pronounce happened. And so foundation models became the key to give everyone, you know, a pocket mary, which is like how I pitched it. But then I got I got to contend with the design that I had. And I was frustrated at first because I went to the code crawl after community kit and I was like, "Okay, time to redesign this. Time to slap the glass on." I got really frustrated because I looked at my app and I was like, I don't know what I can like what to do with it in the state it's in. Like I tried

[26:08] I I initially saw the liquid glass is just like a look. But then I had some friends who are very grateful for their assistance over the course of the week. And I realized liquid glass is not just a look, it's a new system, which I mean people are probably like, "Duh, Adrian, it's a it's a system redesign." Like, okay, you may be right. But I kind of learned that it has its own set of rules and what works and doesn't work. And once I kind of came to grips with that, I also kind of learned some techniques on how to learn what my users really want and how to make things a little

[26:40] better to use. And so those dubtailed really nicely into a redesign that I worked really hard on. I basically pretty much rebuilt the app from scratch. Like I would say that in the year of 2025 I built PDP Pal twice with the exception of what we stopped helping with cuz I'm never going to touch that. Like the data layer uh stayed the same but you re everything visually changed and I'm really really happy that it did. I got to go to a workshop in New York with Apple for uh like learn how to do the liquid glass. That was so invaluable. I got to really learn and like

[27:14] think about how like a Swift UI expert really like approaches stuff. The expert in question was Kurt, who was just wonderful. And I feel like yes, it like I it helped me make my app look really really good while I was there because I got to ask a lot of important questions like is this necessary? Like what does this serve? How does this better? But the biggest takeaway was also things I could use in the future, especially things that Kurt taught me, you know, like little things here and there, like throw this into a sample project. The biggest advice he gave me was if you feel

[27:40] you're fighting the framework, there's probably a better way to do it. And that's something I take super seriously now. Also, if he called me out for my aggressive use of the onchange modifier, in which I should have been called out for. Feels like a very Apple thing to say, right? I think there are apps that benefit from feeling like the system and and feeling almost like their their um app made by Apple. Kind of speaking personally, it can sometimes be selfish when the idea is like don't fight the system, just make everything look exactly like everybody else's app. That can get aggravating too. That's fair. And like especially for this app, I wanted it to feel like the app

[28:14] that folks use for like health and stuff. And so it was good advice. I think you wanted to feel very trustworthy and feel like native to the system. Yeah. It was really fun and I really loved it. And then I came for the re-release and I thought for sure I'd be like instantly featured. I was like, "Yes, I put a liquid glass in my app." Like spoiler alert, so did everyone else. And like I honestly got very crushed that it didn't get featured. Um like And by featured you like win iOS 2016. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like I think I had somehow snowballed a bunch of

[28:43] momentum in my head like like oh man it's going to happen it's going to happen and then like it didn't happen and I felt crushed or whatever and I think that's okay that's part of like your journey you know the yearly iOS release cycle Apple makes a bunch of features about you know apps that use XYZ framework well essentially and if you can get on one of those lists it can be really nice in terms of lots more eyeballs seeing your app and if you convert well lots more sales in your app, but it comes with this unfortunate side effect, which is you have absolutely zero real control

[29:16] over what Apple does. Uh, so you can throw lots of fishing lines out there. You can give them all the things that you think app app store editorial wants, like implementing liquid design, talking to lots of people, going to the sessions, you know, getting as much facetime as you can with people on those teams. But like at the end of the day, who knows what their decision process is. And that can

[29:37] be really disheartening when you do all that work and then you don't get that payoff. No, I agree. And I think one thing I learned the valuable takeaway was that there are things that you can control that you can't that you should try to control especially with your app. But I was doing it started to get to a point where I was doing the work on the app for the redesign for the wrong reasons. There were parts especially at the very beginning of the redesign process I really loved it and I felt like I was learning stuff and I felt like I was just getting to like kind of experiment

[30:06] with all I really loved but as I got like super feature hungry like or whatever you know that's where like the falloff came you know that's where like the I keep saying get crushed I don't want to say like hurt it's not like they slighted me it's not they were like man that no but it's emotionally uh hurtful like you know it's not that somebody's making a bad choice but it still hurts when once you have eggs in basket. Yeah, exactly. But I'm okay with the result. I think I'm better for it. I think experiencing that was kind of what I was meant to experience at this point in

[30:39] my life because two things happened. Number one, I learned do things because you love them. And then also Paul encouraged me to get into something he calls spite driven development and I made a second app out of it. Well, okay. And I want to get into that, but first you said in September that there was a a jump. So, you didn't get a feature? Yes. So, what what's the story there? Like, how where did the jump come from? Is it just from So, the jump came from And that's a really good question to ask because I wasn't even looking at that. Like, I could have been more appreciative

[31:09] of that. The redesign came out and I got to be on the news about it, which was really cool. Um, like the like TV news. Yeah, I was on TV news. I was I think I was wearing this shirt and I said, I'll never forget it. I said awesome sauce on it. I was like, they never say that word. So, I was like, what is happening? But it was cool. I got to explain it for parents and I got to kind of give, you know, I kind of get got to give viewers an overview of this is what iOS 26 looks like. If you woke up this morning and your iPhone feels different, here's why. And then I realized after

[31:40] all this process, my target users are not people who are just like super eager to like update their iPhone and get liquid glass. Exactly. They're the people who go, "Can you fix my printer for me, Charlie?" Yes. Exactly. You're solving you're like creating a digital solution to a problem that everybody has and it doesn't need to be targeted at you know the people who read 9to5 Mac and are looking at the app store pages every day to see what new apps are out there. This is

[32:09] a very different user base probably. So yeah and so that was very it was very interesting. It's crazy because if you think about it from then until September that's six months where I didn't understand my core audience. How did you end up on the news? Well, so a couple of my friends knew that I was working at the app and they passed my information along and they were like, "Hey, do you want to appear on the news?" And I was like, "Do I want to appear on the news?" "Yeah, that sounds cool." I was like, "My mom will finally watch." There is something about being on like

[32:36] traditional media that Revenue Cat, we like to do competitions where we put things on billboards. And for most apps, it's not like a billboard is actually a good way to do advertising, but man, is it validating seeing your work, your artwork on this giant physical I love seeing people experience it. I love people seeing the I like seeing the validation others get. It's really cool. Yeah, that actually moved the needle. So, you started seeing a jump in downloads after after the the news broadcast. Yes. And so, that was really cool. Um, and then it got me thinking on ways to market. I'm still not great at marketing, but me not being good at marketing is not the end

[33:13] of that story. It's just kind of a I'm not good at it now, but I like I can see ways in which I can try to be good at it. You said you learned spite driven development and that led you to making a second app. So what what's the story there? I think I don't know who the spite was directed at because it wasn't directed at Apple and it wasn't directed inwardly. I think it was kind of like when musicians try a different thing and they're like, "Okay, well like I'm going to try the electric guitar when I played like acoustic guitar my entire career." And I identified another

[33:41] problem that I had and it's a problem I've had since I was 9 years old and it's migraines. And I was like, I'm going to solve a really personal problem and I think I'm going to ship an app that has a direct connection to the person who's using it. But the thing is, I learned so much with the the redesigned. I wanted to make an app that was really pretty. And so the first the longest thing I spent time on with my second app was a gently animated background. It took me a while. I spent a I had plenty of layovers and stuff to crack it, but I did. And one of my friends issued a

[34:17] challenge and they said they bet that I couldn't release my app in a month. And the stakes were real high, let me tell you. It was ice cream. Loser had to buy the person the winner ice cream. And I made the app in the time period. It ended up being a really, really helpful tool for me and my migraines. So I've been dealing with migraines since I was 9 years old. And it's very personal

[34:41] problem, one that I've had in my back pocket. And I started making it on a train and during flights. I get my best ideas when I go to serverside Swift. It's weird. That's the conference in the UK. Yeah, I get to help. I'm one of the helpers in that team is so great to work for. But anyways, my friend made me a bet that I couldn't finish the app in under a month. And I took his bet and the stakes were really high. Let me tell you, the winner had to receive ice cream from the loser. Ah, rough rough. So, I finished the app in under a month, but it was really easy to do because I wanted to

[35:15] make something incredibly low effort. I mentioned I have ADHD and I wanted to make a migraine app that when I'm in the middle of like vision problems and just searing pain that it doesn't ask me like a million questions and my bank account and my social security and everything. Not that it ever has. That's a joke. And so, I did that. And so the core feature really behind a log is it has a giant button when you're logging. You can do save now log later. It will capture the weather data and any relevant health data in that moment and it'll be like cool and you can go about

[35:50] your day and rest and in 8 hours it will notify you like would you like to add any more details about triggers and stuff and at that point you're usually feeling better. Some of them run pretty long, but I think it's enough of a spot where you can update it. And so that's been going very well.

[36:05] It was pretty and all liquid glass and I finished it under a month and I shipped it really quietly. I actually shadow dropped it. Yeah, this one kind of just popped up out of nowhere. I don't even feel like you were talking about it with, you know, our our friend group. I think it's part of my thing where it's I was worried about inst the um instant gratification again and so I had to be careful and so I think that's working well for me. It came out quickly and one thing I have been really surprised with how well it's doing on the app store. It's actually like generating a pretty

[36:36] like decent amount of money. Is it like livable right now? No. But it's like it's my first project that's like continuing to grow really well. Why do you think that is? I think that it's easy to sell something like an app for migraines because it's very search driven. people who have migraines look for stuff and then folks just want to take care of their migraines and not have them. It's a very universal problem. Whereas PDPL I think one of the things that is difficult for especially marketing towards you know folks like you and me who are like very techy there's a second degree it's I am a user using on behalf of my child versus like Arlo's really easy. It plugs into like the systems

[37:16] like of healthcare and stuff and you know you use it really quickly and that's it. It has the few useful app intents and it does the job that it's clearly assigned to do. And I think because PDA pal was made with a bunch of little tasks that it does. Focusing on just one initially let me design it really really really thoroughly and like really finely. And I think that benefited me in the long run. So it's you said search driven. Is a lot of that coming from like specific keywords that you intentionally put in there or have you done the research to sort of figure that out? I've

[37:56] done some Adam Leil helped me with my keywords. We hung out. He's a good friend too. We went to um Dev World together and he gave me some advice on keywords and stuff and it's been doing really well. And so they're not thoughts that I would have had organically. So, thanks, Adam. And also, you have you heard that phrase? It's give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him forever. No, I'm just kidding, guys. I was ask the most common English idiom you can you can think of. Well, I think Adam definitely taught me how to fish. Yeah. Yeah. When we hung out,

[38:32] and I'm really appreciative. I love when I ask for help and people aren't just like, "Let me do it for you." And they teach me how to do it meaningfully. That's just such a valuable thing. So, have you have you continued pushing on the sort of ASO then for Arlog? Yes, that's my main driver. Actually, I've been doing that and Apple search ads have been working remarkably well for it. Really? Okay. So, with Apple search ads, that's something I've never really been able to crack. But I think for me at least, the issue has been that my, you know, my average lifetime value for customers I earn through ads isn't high enough to offset the cost of the ads. So,

[39:08] I end up paying more for people than than they ever bring in. How have you dealt with that? Adam and I talked a little bit about doing ads and some experiments with it and we did the experiments that uh we talked about and it just started working really well and the conversion rates doing really well and I think migraine is such a high search volume term that the related terms do really really really well and it also helps with the visibility in the app store and I think I kind of just happened to catch lightning in a bottle. I wish I could say, "Oh, yes, I calculated everything and like was so good at it." But I think I got lucky. Yeah, I

[39:47] guess that makes sense. Like your conversion rate, you know, there's thousands of white noise apps, which is what my app is sort of competing with that are completely free and they're filled with ads or whatever, but like they're totally free. And so the conversion rate for my app, which I also have the free tier is pretty generous, is probably lower than maybe what you're getting. What I guess that is a quick question. What is the business model for I didn't ask you for either of these apps. What is the business model for both of these apps? So, they're both premium apps. They're both they both have a limited set of free features and you can pay for like the ultimate, you know,

[40:21] thorough use cases. It's just it's things are behind the payw wall. That's really nice. And what do you have behind the payw wall on Arlog? Because it's a pretty limited like you said, it's intentionally kind of a limited set of features. So, what is it that people are actually paying for versus free? So the biggest thing that people pay for for Arlog is all the tools related to their history, their migraine history. And that's kind of the ability to look at all of them and that you've ever had and like down to the nitty-gritty like weather detail. A free user, what they can do with it is they can log their migraines and they can see the most three common

[40:58] triggers and they see basically a heat map of all the ones that they've had recently. They don't have that granular data. That makes sense. So you can capture you can capture everything just fine and you can see like a set of of all that information. But if you want the the more granular data and data that you're pulling in like the notes that they leave, I'm assuming they can see um for free. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So it's all the stuff that you're kind of pulling in and adding in. That makes sense. And I imagine that's very valuable information for for somebody experiencing these especially I where I've heard this uh from people I know is there's some treatments

[41:39] now right for extreme migraines and tracking all of this and seeing what's working not working is like incredibly important and it's notoriously hard to track when while you're experiencing one you're not in a space where you can really do that work. No, that's that's very true. And I think that's kind of the problem it aims to solve cuz I think a lot of apps help you track migraines. The whole point of this one is to assist you and not be annoying when you need it. It's made by somebody who's who has firsthand experience being in that space, right? Yeah. Oh, that's right. Cuz like one time I actually called you and I had one of my weirdest ones. Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah. I should

[42:23] say like a lot of my understanding of this field is from knowing you and people listening who don't know people who have you know severe migraines like this probably have the same mentality I had which is like I think of a migraine as like it's a really really bad headache but sometimes with you it doesn't even seem like it's a headache it's more like well like the name implies you get like the aura is like a ring in your vision right so the app icon which Matthew Skyle so lovingly designed is made to look like a common aura that people I actually don't see that one. Every now

[42:55] and then I'll see what looks like a little golden fairy streak across my vision. It sounds so weird to say out loud. It always sounds so calling it an aura too makes it sound pleasant. Uh oh. It's so weird though. But like the things that I experience at the onset of a migraine vary. Sometimes like I see like a little golden dot. Sometimes things look a little smudged. Sometimes I go totally blind. And then sometimes I lose feeling in like my mouth and my hands. And then there's when one that's happened only a handful of times where I can understand what people are

[43:27] saying to me but I cannot speak like English. I cannot make my mouth formulate any sound or words. Well, sometimes like you have your like accent changes. Yes. Yes. Happens too. Yeah. It's a really bizarre again it's like to me a migraine was a bad headache and it's like it's so much not just even more than that but different it's a completely different thing than that and it seems like everybody experiences it very differently but for many people I imagine well it is like debilitating by kind of nature so like designing software as somebody who understands these things and I imagine you're part of communities you know more people than the average person who

[44:06] are going through these as well I actually only know people kind of like in my day-to-day life that I talk to. I'm not like I'm trying to embark some on TikTok or whatever. So, I've learned a lot through how people deal with things, but I don't have a huge migraine community. Oh, that's actually that's an interesting point because that feels like sort of, you know, search traffic, finding people as they're asking for solutions. That's one way. But then the other way would be finding those communities. like uh I had a recent episode with uh Asia Beckett talking about the GLP-1 medication, you know, kind of tracking apps and like a big part of her success

[44:41] was finding those communities and engaging with those communities and like building it for them. That feels like that could be another mechanism, but it sounds like you're not necessarily in in those communities the same way. No, but I'm looking to be. And that's the thing, like I'm not going to pretend I have like all the answers. I'm like, "Yes, I'm just so successful over here." I'm always looking for a way to do it better. And I think now I'm confident enough in what I can make that I do want to extend to communities. And then I do think that for the next thing that I make, I

[45:08] will probably do a build in public or I will share it with folks who want to use it and actually do some really really heavy beta testing before I do like an actual launch. I'm trying to like It's nice. It's like playing different instruments. You kind of get to sample how each of them sound and feel and find which ones you like best. Yeah, that's awesome. So So yeah. So, that app is only what, like 4 months old. It's It's pretty recent, right? Uh, yeah, it came out in October, I believe. October. Okay. So, hopefully a long road ahead for it. It seems like that one definitely

[45:40] has has some traction. Um, but you It seems like my strongest one. That's got to be a good feeling, too. Although sometimes maybe disheartening where it's like Pedia Pal was the app that you probably put a lot more of your whole heart and soul into and spent a lot of time and stressed more about it and this one because you were like let's just make it fast. You don't think about the fact that you're actually piggybacking off of all that work you did with Pediapal but it actually is a result of all the work you did with PDP but it feels like oh I just threw this one out there and then it

[46:09] gains traction and it's almost like aggravating. I I wouldn't say I'm aggravated because it's still alive and doing decently well and I have like the next update planned. PD's opened some interesting doors for me. I'm getting invited to like these health conferences for like paranatal organizations. Oh, interesting. Whatot and so the next app the next update for PDL, the next major one is going to be all about babies. That makes sense. And that's a that's that's a thing people are tracking a lot of things. Uh at least we were when ours were babies. It makes so much sense to me that like and I can't believe I didn't see it at first going doubling down on starting at like

[46:43] literally like infancy because you can grow with that whole history too. And I imagine that TAM is significantly bigger although it's a lot more competitive and I think I was a little hesitant to jump into that first because I was like I don't want to really jump into something that's really oversaturated. I kind of want to hit a slightly different market but now I'm being asked to join that and so that to me seems like a good sign. Yeah, for sure. Oh, that's really cool. One thing I also want to talk about in relation to, you know, all this work that you did throughout this whole conversation, it has come up over and over again that you were at XYZ conference and

[47:20] you worked with XYZ person who helped you do XYZ. Like your connection with the community, I feel like is a major part of your your journey as a as a developer and as an indie. And that, you know, has extended from, like we talked about at the beginning, you were doing iOS dev happy hour, but last year at WWDC, you really like push that much more forward with with community kit, which is uh essentially a like side conference along with WWDC. Maybe I'll let you explain it better than me. It is basically a supplementary experience for Dubdub. And I think community kit came out in such a beautiful way because it's kind of like my friends and I we got together and we

[48:05] kind of got to jam together on something cool and community kit was born from that. We were all at uh serverside swift when we came up with the idea. We were like let's just do something. Let's do something like during dubdub or whatever. And I think had it been just only one of us at a time it would be severely different. But I think because all of us really came together and made something special because like communicate is not just my thing like I want to just take like a good moment to acknowledge like you know Michaela and Mitchie and Ben and Chris and Matt and Paul and Tama and

[48:38] Frank they're all great and wonderful and just wonderful like fantastic to work with. Had it not been for them I don't think it would be as special as it is. And I'm really happy because last year was great. We had a lot going on at Community Kit to supplement the things going on at Dubdub. We didn't try to step in and replace it. We were like, "Hey, here's a central spot for you to continue enjoying your dubdubdub and to come and go as you please and to have meetups with people who are interested in the things that you you are and a space for indie developers to come show off

[49:09] what they've done." And it was really special. I'm just really grateful we get to come back again. Also, thanks Revenue C for sponsoring us last year and this year. Yes. Yeah. And like I've probably said it on this podcast a bunch too, but like the sort of post2020 WWDC experience where Apple shortened everything up to basically just be one day for a much smaller group of people kind of bummed me out quite a bit. And as somebody who was who lives in St. Louis, Missouri, we don't have this big indie, you know, iOS development scene. Being able to go to a place where everybody's all together and be inspired by lots of people and talk to lots of people, find partners on projects,

[49:48] that's like a big part of the WWDC experience to me. And for the last, you know, since they started doing it in person again, you kind of had to do a lot of that work yourself, there was lots of side events. iOS dev happy hour was one of the first, I think, uh, to have a happy hour, but it was, you know, it was like a 2-hour kind of experience. Also sponsored by RevCat. If we listed all the events happening sponsored by Revenue, kind of becomes a running joke. Uh cuz we we have our fingers and everything I feel like. But like what Community Kit did, what was missing from a lot

[50:20] of that to me was if you're a person coming into Certino, not exactly this thriving metropolis of walkability, right? Outside of Apple's one event that you have to have a special ticket for anyway, where do you go to do stuff? And you kind of have to dig around the internet. Paul Hudson has a great uh GitHub repo basically where he was or it still does I think track all these side events that are going on. But most of those are ticketed even if they're free. They can only let so many people in. So there was never just an obvious like let's just go here and I'm going

[50:54] to be surrounded by other iOS nerds. What you did with Community Kit was you created that space. It was essentially, it was kind of a conference, but it was like at a hotel. You had a big room and it was just a series of sessions. Some of them were talks, some of them were like I did a live version of of Launched, there was other podcasts, there was trivia, there was games, there was just random stuff happening throughout. But the important thing was if you just go there, you're going to be surrounded by your people. And that felt like that was a big hole that was missing. And

[51:28] I I think there was a lot of gratitude for that among within the community. It was really special and honestly like the whole community team really put their heart and soul into it. I can speak only really for myself but this community has given me so much and you know at some at harder points in my life they've really been there for me. And so I mean it wholeheartedly when I say I love this community with my whole heart and I really want to help foster it and continue to help it be there because I don't know maybe there will be someone who like starting in their like early

[52:01] career that needs friends and you know community and I really hope it's there for them in the way that it's been for me because so many people when I got started gave me everything that I have now and it would not be right to be like a dragon and hoard a bunch of gold. I really want to make sure that everything that I have, I get to pay it forward somehow because it just wouldn't feel right otherwise. And community kit, that's the desire I bring to the community kit. And I'm just happy that people have found community there. That's literally what's supposed to it's supposed to be the glue between the cracks of everything happening during the week. And I think it went

[52:36] extremely well and I'm very fortunate that it did. And one one more launched related plug uh for anybody who's thinking about going next year. Actually, I don't you you can answer me uh cuz I don't know if you're planning on doing this again, but last year during my doldrums year of launch where I released like three total episodes. One of the few episodes that I released was with Clemen Ster uh where we talked about Artifa, which was before he like won all of the awards last year. He won like an ADA trick-or-treating. He probably got all that because he was on launch, but you know, I'm not taking credit. Uh yeah. But no, one of the things we talked about in that episode was how he

[53:15] would go because he makes lots of these games. He would go to games conferences and a lot of games conferences have these like indie showcases where uh developers can get in this big area and people can walk around and like demo their game and then they get to like see live feedback from people playing playing their games. And I was like, man, that should exist for indie like iOS apps. that would be so cool. And then I brought that up to you. I don't know if it was before or after you had already started Community Kit and you were like, "Yes, we should just do that." And you

[53:47] did it. And it was it was honestly a completely wild experience to be in this room where there was tables all around and all these people were streaming in and just going through all these booths with these indie developers and you could demo the app you're working on and get live feedback. It was crazy. It was just the coolest thing. I remember like it was during community kits like development we were doing that because I would be like Charlie let's talk more about this call me and that was so fun to do and I'm so glad it's coming back this year and fun note about this year is we're going to have a bit of a we're determining whether it's going to be either before

[54:22] or after the main we call this the indie fair we're going to do a small like group of the actual indie developers before or after they present their apps so they can meet each other Community Camp was such a cool time and I'm just so glad to be coming back. We're like just getting started on kind of loosely planning our week. It's really hard to do because you know we at the time of recording this we don't have like all the details about what even is happening at Dubdub. So well and you often don't even get all the details until after the keynote sometimes like last year a bunch

[54:54] of events were kind of messed up because Apple did that F1 screening and it's like you never know. This is one of the challenges of organizing anything during WWDC week is uh everybody's just trying to feel the winds and try to understand what's going to happen, but really nobody ever fully knows. No. Yeah. It's fun. I don't like people are like is it stressful? And I'm like kind of but stress like entertaining. And you know this is like a kind of conference that's going along with WWDC. But this year you decided to add even more to your giant pile of work by doing a capital C conference conference. Uh do you want to give some details on that? The idea was I really

[55:34] wanted to do a conference and this happened like I started thinking about it maybe two or three years ago but I wanted to be centered around music because I love music. I love playing music. I love listening to music. And so I was like Charlie I want to do a conference about like centered around music. And you're like oh that sounds cool like you should like do. You're like oh it could be like like festival themed. I was like what a great idea. Did that come from me? And so, oh, sweet. I don't know if it came from you or not. I just know that you're the first person I didn't

[55:59] stop talking about it to. And so, for a while, I was like, "Okay, yes." And each year I was like, "I'm going to do a conference." And just like my other indie apps, where did it go? And so, finally, this most recent year at Serverside Swift, uh, Matt Mass Mascot was there and I was like, "Oh, yeah. I've always thought about doing this like conference or whatever, but I don't know like when's a good time." And he just goes, "A just do it. it's never gonna be

[56:23] a good time or a bad time. He's like, you're just gonna run out of time. I was like, you're right. And so I pushed the needle to 11 and went 110%. So it's called Swift Sonic, kind of a play on uh Panasonic. And basically the idea behind it is it's going to have a lot of heavy like imagery and marketing material to simulate music festivals. And so what I've done with the talks and it's where is it where is it located and when is it? Oh yeah yeah it's in Nashville Music City Tennessee and it's going to be in November. I like designing games and I like playing games a lot. Like the

[57:03] study of game design is I could give a TED talk on it. Um but I wanted to make a cool mechanic to the conference cuz I wanted to have something unique that kind of gives it a bit of identity. And so what I came up with, so Deep Dish does a thing where they have, you know, a couple talks and then a break. And most conferences do talks and then a break. What Swift Sonic is going to do, it's going to do two talks and a break, but the two talks are following the following format. There's going to be an opener speaker and a headliner speaker. The headliner speaker is somebody that has a

[57:36] pretty lengthy speaking career. And the opener is someone who is just getting started through or would like to further speaking career or yeah a first-time speaker ideally and they're going to pair in April and they're going to determine how they want to fill up that combined 90 minutes. They can do standard 45minut talk 45minut talk. I told them that 90minut space is for them to use as creatively as they desire or not at all. And so I'm looking forward to being surprised to seeing what people come up with as opener and headliners for each other. And I hope that it helps those folks develop some good mentor, mentee, and friendship relationships. I think that

[58:17] there's a lot of potential to happen if I'm not trying to control it. So many of your projects, uh, this has that that feeling of a person who understands the mechanics of these types of communities. Like, uh, I'm really excited to see how this all how this all shakes out. But it's definitely uh me too. I'm be surprised. That'll be that'll be really fun. Thanks Revenue Cat for sponsoring Swift Sonic. Yeah, let's just keep the the Revenue Cat ads rolling. Yeah, that I'm really I'm really excited to see how that all goes. And where where can people find information? I don't remember what you've publicly announced about this or what you haven't. What's

[58:53] the deal there? So, there is a call for papers open now. And if you are a first-time speaker, I would highly recommend you sign up. I'm looking aggressively for first- time speakers or otherwise folks who want to make more with their speaking career who spoke maybe like a handful of times. You can find that on the Swift Sonic website, Swift Sonic. That's s W I F T S O N I C NF.com. So, we've got Betsy who is opening Yes. the whole conference. I love Betsy. She's such a dear former former Apple on this Swift UI team or Swift UI evangelist team. Yeah, she's she's super

[59:34] she's that's why her handle's super Betsy. She knows Paul is closing the conference. And then some of her headliners include Daniellea Vison, um Michaela Karen, Chris Woo, Matt Heeney, Clemens, as you uh I just figured, you know, you'd want to know. I haven't formally announced him yet, but if you're listening, surprise. Oh, well, there you go. He doesn't know he's being announced. This is how Clemens finds out he's coming to Nashville. Yeah. And so I try to do headliner speaker announcements on Monday leading up to probably like the 1st of April because then I'm going to go through all the CFPs. CFPs are also on the Swift Sonic website. They close on the very last hour of

[1:00:17] March 31st. Okay? So, get those in and I'm going to try in the first week of April to go through them and let the folks who are speaking know, but you won't hear anything about the openers just yet because I'm going to pair them with the headliners and give them a chance to work on something. And then I will probably around dubdubish time or probably shortly after I'll pro I'll have a um festival poster with everyone on it. Fantastic. So, I'm really excited. I think it's going to be really fun and I hope we all enjoy the the vibes for sure. I really want it to feel like kind of

[1:00:55] like a stadium tour almost. Yeah, this uh it has all the it has all the trappings of a of a very unique event. Well, that's a very nice way to put it. All right. So, uh, before before I let you go, I have to ask you the question that I ask everybody to end the show, which is, uh, what's a person or people out there that inspire you in your work that you'd recommend others check out? I would honestly say somebody that has inspired me time and time again, especially when I'm not feeling good about myself, and I know other people have said this before, but Paul Hudson genuinely inspires me, and he does really great work. One thing that I don't

[1:01:34] see mentioned enough is Paul is a genuinely good person and I can go to Paul just about anything that I'm dealing with and he has really good practical advice and he's just there for me in a really meaningful way. And so that inspires me to try to do that for the friends who need me and basically for me to be approachable. So, I think at the end of the day, you can be a genius and that's awesome. But if you show up for your friends, especially making them feel like they matter, I think that's a really special thing. And I think that's a really rare thing that I know I'm

[1:02:06] trying to cultivate in myself and I hope others are too. So, if you're listening, Paul, thanks for everything. And he knows a thing or two about, you know, Swift and Swift UI as well. Yeah. Little known fact about Paul Hudson. Yeah. Just like a a couple things. Yeah. And you can find everything about him at hackingwithswift.com. Yeah. A fine internet establishment often sponsored by revenue. Revenue cap. There you are. There it is. Uh, all right. Cool. So, this was super super fun. Uh, I'm glad I'm glad we finally got to do this. So, where can people find you and all of your projects? So, you can find me at Swift Eves on pretty much any social media. It's s w i ft t ves. And you know,

[1:02:54] I mentioned the swift sonic website. You can follow me on social media for better or for worse. And yeah, if you ever want to just reach out, say hello, please do. Fair warning in advance that I might actually talk your ear off if you uh engage me. So, heads up. I wouldn't know anything about

[1:03:10] that. No. Yeah, I was about to say you're kind of like the mayor of like plain conversation town. All right. Well, uh, at risk of continuing that reputation, uh, I'll go ahead and wrap us up. So, thank you all for listening. Uh, launched is is a part, as we've mentioned, of the Revenue Cap podcast family. If you want to learn more about the growth side of mobile app businesses, you should check out SubCL club, uh, which is a podcast hosted by my good friend and colleague, David Barnard. And, uh, of course, go to revenuecat.com to learn more about the easiest way to grow and monetize your mobile app business. For more launched, go to launchedfm.com. And uh we're

[1:03:48] pretty much on all the social media platforms at launched FM. And uh I'll see you all in two weeks.

---

About this transcript
Read from YouTube's own caption track and laid out by ViewRank AI (https://viewrankai.com).
ViewRank AI finds the videos already beating a creator's own average on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube Shorts, transcribes them from the audio itself in more than 60 languages, and turns what worked into new ideas and scripts.
Free transcript tools, no account needed: https://viewrankai.com/tools
How to read any video this way: https://viewrankai.com/llms.txt